[AllanS]

I experienced a most disconcerting revelation the other day; it’s not my room.
I’m set up in an asymmetric space with about 36” from the right hand side wall to the baffle edge and open space to the left.
I thought the asymmetry was responsible for a compressed RH sound stage.  I experimented with rotating the set up 90 degrees to provide that symmetry and found no difference.
To assess this I used a series of tracks from Native DSD Audiophile Speaker Setup - Precise Location and Depth of Field.  The tracks have a stereo pair microphones setup on a stage with a person moving to general stage locations and distances from the mics.  The person speaks, sounds a clapper of some sort, and rings a bell from each location. 
What I hear is a good representation of everything left of center stage, but right of center stage sound little different than center stage to me.
As mentioned I rotated the set up 90 degrees and found no difference.  Thinking that maybe the tracks were bad I swapped the LH/RH preamp outputs to the power amp.  With them swapped the RH sound stage was still collapsed with seems to suggest it’s my ears, not the room!  In the rotated configuration I even pulled the RH speaker 2 feet ahead of the LH speaker and all that did was collapse the LH sound stage.  Headphones seems to confirm this.
I do have some test tracks where imaging is well outside the RH speaker so I’m not sure what to think.  Has anyone ever experienced this?

https://www.nativedsd.com/product/2xhdft1095-audiophile-speaker-setup/

Apologies for the upside down image. I have yet to figure out how to correct this when I happens.

[toocool4]

I am not sure if you say, you hear the same or different using headphones?

If you hear the same image shift on headphones to left of center, then it’s your system or center balance is off. Now repeat the same but turning the headphones 180 degrees, if the images moves right of center it’s not your ears.
When you’ve tested all this with the headphones, if the sound / images is what is expected then you need to go back you your main speaker setup to try again.
If everything works out as expected on headphones, what I would now do is the following.
Use your standard position with the open space on the left. I notice you have 2 x absorbers on the right-hand side, remove one of them and only put one in the first reflection point on the right-hand side. Take the other one and put it in the same position as the right-hand one but on the left-hand side. So if the one on the right hand side is say 2 meters from the front wall and 1 meter to the side of the right-hand side speaker. Go to 2 meters from the front wall on the left side and 1 meter to the left of the left-hand side speaker. Put the absorber there. Try playing your tracks again. Having nothing in the open space on the left-hand side is not helping with the symmetry of the speakers and they will both behave differently.

Also, have you tried to physically swap the left and right speaker?

[BobM]

You certainly did rotate it 180 degrees 

[nlitworld]

Toocool is right, when you have an asymmetrical issue you need to be strategic about sorting or it'll drive you mad. I had a similar issue a while back and chased it backwards from speakers. Start with swapping speaker cables (easier than moving physical speakers). Did it swap L<->R? Then it's system issue, not room issue so continue steps backwards up the signal chain. If it doesn't change and stays funky on right side, then physically swap L and R speakers. If it still doesn't change, then you know it's room issue, but if it does change then it could be speaker or speaker cable issue. You already swapped pramp->amp cables and it did not change so it could be amp related.

In my case, I finally traced it all back to a decent but not great solder connection on my preamp out rca plug but that took a good bit to pinpoint.

Good luck in your hunt!

[richidoo]

Absorption panels on the front wall of audiophile system is bad, especially spaced out to make reflective stripes between absorptive stripes causes lobing, which varies with frequency. Front wall should be hard and flat.

The absorptive couch on the side wall next to speaker strongly draws the image toward it. That could be part of the problem you were describing. So moving couch to back of the room is great, and it makes nice listening seat. Keep it away from the rear wall a few feet if possible.

The window wall doesn't work as front wall because of the blind slats, and the rack/TV, etc. And the alcove effect with the bump out where the printer is.

I would use the wall with no window and no couch as in your last picture. As experiment, leave the corner traps in the corners but stack the flat panels on top of corner traps to cover the whole corner height. The reflection in corners is very destructive to midrange / lower treble. If this sounds good then you can move the corner traps elsewhere and put flat panels in the corners against the side walls full height to ceiling. This will kill all midrange corner reflections, and allow the door to open while having no absorption on front wall.

Then just leave the front wall between the speakers bare and uncluttered, putting electronics down low away from mid tweeter height if they must be between speakers.

With hard flat front wall you can benefit from positioning the speakers' to front wall distance and toe angles very precisely equal. 1/16" tolerance at the tweeter is a good goal.

[HAL]

Another option is to put 2-D diffusion on the wall behind the open baffle speakers.  This will spread the rear wave evenly in the room instead of more direct reflections from a flat wall. 

I tried absorption on the wall behind Magnepan dipoles for a LEDE style room, and did not work as well as diffusion behind the speakers.

[toocool4]

Personally I would not put any 2D diffusors on the front wall, 1D works better as long as you don’t put anything too deep for the wave to fully form by the time they get back to your listening position.

If I was going to experiment in that room, I would start by setting up and using the position of the last image you posted, the one with the window on the left-hand side.
Get rid of those corner traps, complete waste of time and money they are doing nothing for you. The corners are not your problem, the whole wall is the problem.
Remove those 2 traps in the middle of the wall and place them on the first reflection points, so one will be in front of the window.
Move the couch away from the back wall like richidoo said.

Give that a try and if you like what you hear, get 1D diffusors for the front wall. You don’t have to go all the way across the front wall, Yes the whole wall would be better but in your case it’s not practical. Just start from the middle and make sure you cover the same distance from left to right. You want the conditions to be the same for both speakers.

For me like you, it’s not practical for me to cover the whole front wall so I covered the important part that is still symmetrical for both speakers to see. My back wall is covered in 1D diffusors as I have the distance to do it.
You don’t have the distance, so absorbers are best for you. You can use the ones you have, just remove the scatter plates from the front of them so they will be just plain absorbers rather than diffusor / absorbers you have at the moment.

If you must keep / use those corner traps you have, put them in your back corners but remove the scatter plates on the front of them so you can use them as absorbers.

Attached is a picture of my front wall with 1D diffusors, first reflection points with absorber in from of window.
By the way my room is still work in progress, it's not finished yet.

[AllanS]

Many thanks all.  I appreciate your thoughts, observations, and recommendations.

Point well taken nlitworld - I thought I'd eliminated electronics but you're right that there is still plenty to go wrong.  Rather than mess with the main set up I'll swap in a small set up that will change everything but the computer where the test tracks are stored.  I have a couple of amps, a streamer coming and a DAC/pre likely not too far behind that will require different cabling so completely eliminating electronics should be straight forward.

toocool, picking up on the headphones comments I should have offered more detail.  The perception of the RH image collapse was present using cans but it was less pronounced and more difficult to locate the image in the sound field than the LH image.  Swapping L for R didn't make a difference.  The RH side was still collapsed.  This is also what fed into convincing me my ears are the problem.  I do need to have another listen though.  Every time I listen seems to be different.

richidoo, this is where your comment about alternating absorptive and reflective lobing got my attention.  Every listen seems to be different such that I really don't trust what I hear one day is all there is to the story as I may hear something subtly different the next time.  I get some image float where different frequencies seem to come from different locations.  It's not drastic but enough to ruin the illusion.  I hadn't thought of discontinuities.

Which brings us to treatments.  Let's just say I wasted money on treatments.  I bought stuff without understanding what problems needed solving because it seemed like the thing to do.  After much measuring I learned the room is borderline dead without treatments.  The treatments honestly don't have much measurable effect on decay times but do mess with FR.  My best FR measurements are without any treatments.  Phasing and a bunch of other stuff that I don't really understand or likely hear may be better with the treatments but if the basics suck nothing else much matters.  And adding the sofa made the FR worse - opposite what I expected.  I don't know what the answer will be but I do believe it'll need to include diffusion and you all have given me plenty to go on.

More later.  Thanks again.

You all have provided a lot of good suggestions about how to address treatment. I need a do over.  I'm not sure

[toocool4]

AllanS one other thing you have not tried, if you think your ears are at fault. Have you thought about going for a hearing test just to eliminate that?

[Letitroll98]

^This.  The headphone test targets a frequency response error in your hearing and also explains the traveling problem.

[AllanS]

AllanS one other thing you have not tried, if you think your ears are at fault. Have you thought about going for a hearing test just to eliminate that?

Honestly, not until just now.  Thank you.
And I’m willing to bet a hearing test will be a whole lot less expensive than any DAC I’m considering 

[S Clark]

Most insurance policies include one "free" hearing exam per year. 

[rotarius]

Asymmetric high frequency hearing loss can cause this.  I always felt like I had some fluid in my right ear.  Then a sudden onset Tinnitus in that ear led me to a hearing test which confirmed that. 

[Mariusz Uszynski]

(HA) stands for "Hearing Aid"
(ITE) stands for "In The Ear"
(BTE) stands for "Behind The Ear"
(HIP) stands for "Hearing Instrument Practitioner"

Hi Allan, if hearing test will tell you, it's time for the (HA), it's not the end of the world.Be at peace with it and buy good brand, like Phonak.And for god's sake, do not buy (ITE), buy (BTE), if you care for good sound.Trust me, I have had both and (BTE) is the best quality (HA).And don't go to Costco, go to good Hearing Aid Centre.Lot of those places have free trials.The biggest fucking problem (pardon me french) will be...finding the (HIP), that will tune your (HA) to your liking.That's my friend, will be as painful as colonoscopy without sedation. I've had my Phonak Audéo P-70 for almost 3 years and finally found (HIP), who turned my "2 trambones" into proper (HA).I'm not kidding, some of these guys, they are educated, but they don't have a "feel for it".If the music, that you have known for 40-50 years (we are about the same age) won't sound the way it should sound, you my friend will not wear your (HA).I know, because I have been there.Every time my previous (HIP) tried to tune and my music, TV or even conversation sounded out of tune, I kept telling myself, that I don't have a hearing loss.Anyway, a week ago, they recommended another (HIP).Our first meeting lasted about 1 hour, he listened, took notes and was adjusting program on his laptop, then he transfered it onto my (HA).When I got into my car (I have decent MP3 system in my Honda C-RV), I played "Immigrant Song" off Led Zeppelin III.I almost had a heart attack, it sounded that good (clean not distorted), then I played few songs off "Sad Wings Of Destiny" by Judas Priest.I just kept driving like a maniac, cranking the music, did not want to stop.When I finally got home, the final test was my beloved gear.Of course, I started with old music, that I've known and still love to this day.I was blown away, how faithful it sounded, this guy found "Perfect Sound", it's not distorted, not under or over amplifed, he also said, it's not compressed, I've noticed, no more headaches.Tomorrow he's coming over to my house and we will try to put few more adjustments, this is the best way, to find and tune your (HA).I offered him $100, he will bring his loptop, adjust my (HA), I will listen to music, watch TV, then I will be finally in Heavy Metal Heaven, or Hell...

I apologize for the long story, but I thought you should know, that you can wear (HA) and enjoy your music, TV or conversation.Allan, if you will have any questions, I'll be more than happy to answer them.
And I'm sorry for my polish english, lol.

[AllanS]

Next up, navigating the frustrations of retiree health insurance…. Thank you all for providing some direction.

Hearing aids have been in the back of my mind for several years.  On a whim I bought a pair of Bose Sound Control hearing aids.  They didn’t do much for me so I rarely used them.  Just more $$ pissed away.

Many thanks for your offer and for sharing your story and experience Mariusz.  I appreciate it.  I know there are plenty of lengthy threads on the subject but I have a feeling you boiled much of it down to the basics. Don’t go cheap - which I’ve already failed at - and find someone who really understands what a music lover needs.  And I’m happy you’re enjoying head banging again.  I’m imaging pulling up along side you in silence and glancing over to see some maniac hair flying head bouncing off the steering wheel 

[Mariusz Uszynski]

Next up, navigating the frustrations of retiree health insurance…. Thank you all for providing some direction.

Hearing aids have been in the back of my mind for several years.  On a whim I bought a pair of Bose Sound Control hearing aids.  They didn’t do much for me so I rarely used them.  Just more $$ pissed away.

Many thanks for your offer and for sharing your story and experience Mariusz.  I appreciate it.  I know there are plenty of lengthy threads on the subject but I have a feeling you boiled much of it down to the basics. Don’t go cheap - which I’ve already failed at - and find someone who really understands what a music lover needs.  And I’m happy you’re enjoying head banging again.  I’m imaging pulling up along side you in silence and glancing over to see some maniac hair flying head bouncing off the steering wheel 


You welcome Allan.I trully hope, that you will find the solution to your problem.Find the place with free trials and the practitioner, who'll understand your needs, don't give up.Good luck to you.

The company, that I'm using is called Amplifon, the have locations everywhere, look them up.

[Digi-G]

(HA) stands for "Hearing Aid"
(ITE) stands for "In The Ear"
(BTE) stands for "Behind The Ear"
(HIP) stands for "Hearing Instrument Practitioner"

Hi Allan, if hearing test will tell you, it's time for the (HA), it's not the end of the world.Be at peace with it and buy good brand, like Phonak.And for god's sake, do not buy (ITE), buy (BTE), if you care for good sound.Trust me, I have had both and (BTE) is the best quality (HA).And don't go to Costco, go to good Hearing Aid Centre.Lot of those places have free trials.The biggest fucking problem (pardon me french) will be...finding the (HIP), that will tune your (HA) to your liking.That's my friend, will be as painful as colonoscopy without sedation. I've had my Phonak Audéo P-70 for almost 3 years and finally found (HIP), who turned my "2 trambones" into proper (HA).I'm not kidding, some of these guys, they are educated, but they don't have a "feel for it".If the music, that you have known for 40-50 years (we are about the same age) won't sound the way it should sound, you my friend will not wear your (HA).I know, because I have been there.Every time my previous (HIP) tried to tune and my music, TV or even conversation sounded out of tune, I kept telling myself, that I don't have a hearing loss.Anyway, a week ago, they recommended another (HIP).Our first meeting lasted about 1 hour, he listened, took notes and was adjusting program on his laptop, then he transfered it onto my (HA).When I got into my car (I have decent MP3 system in my Honda C-RV), I played "Immigrant Song" off Led Zeppelin III.I almost had a heart attack, it sounded that good (clean not distorted), then I played few songs off "Sad Wings Of Destiny" by Judas Priest.I just kept driving like a maniac, cranking the music, did not want to stop.When I finally got home, the final test was my beloved gear.Of course, I started with old music, that I've known and still love to this day.I was blown away, how faithful it sounded, this guy found "Perfect Sound", it's not distorted, not under or over amplifed, he also said, it's not compressed, I've noticed, no more headaches.Tomorrow he's coming over to my house and we will try to put few more adjustments, this is the best way, to find and tune your (HA).I offered him $100, he will bring his loptop, adjust my (HA), I will listen to music, watch TV, then I will be finally in Heavy Metal Heaven, or Hell...

I apologize for the long story, but I thought you should know, that you can wear (HA) and enjoy your music, TV or conversation.Allan, if you will have any questions, I'll be more than happy to answer them.
And I'm sorry for my polish english, lol.

I don't wear a hearing aid (yet), but just wanted to say what a helpful, and inspiring, post.  Thank you.

[Mariusz Uszynski]

I don't wear a hearing aid (yet), but just wanted to say what a helpful, and inspiring, post.  Thank you.


Hi Digi-G, that's great news.Question for you guys, is there a chance, that you have work in very loud environment and may have lost your hearing at work?I reside in Canada, when I first went for hearing test at Costco (I know, I said earlier, don't go to Costco, lol), the practitioner asked me, where I worked and how loud it was.Then I contacted WCIB (workers compensation), filled some papers, 2 months later, I received one time payment for hearing loss (about $2600.00) and I was notified, that WCIB will pay for my hearing aid and all appointments, to the rest of my life.But keep in mind, that I have worked for 28 years in factory, that damaged my spine and hearing.I'm also on long term disability, due to 4 damaged disks, lots of fun.Everthing was checked, my former company was "famous" wrecking people's health.Extremally loud, fast job.Anyway, if you have worked in place like I just described, perhaps you may qualify for financial help???
I'm wondering, if you guys are familiar with app, that comes with your hearing aid, there are 4-5 programs, that you can customize to your liking, the sky is the limit.I can probably post some pictures


Any more questions guys, no problem.I have all the time in the world.

[AllanS]

AllanS one other thing you have not tried, if you think your ears are at fault. Have you thought about going for a hearing test just to eliminate that?

I got my hearing checked yesterday and there wasn’t anything obvious in the results to explain the right hand soundstage asymmetry.  Left to right results tracked each other pretty well with the right actually about 10 dB better than the left.
That said, the test only went to 8K and it appears to be pretty coarse so I’m sure there’s a lot going on that isn’t captured in the results.  Hearing aids are in my near future.  Time will tell if they help fill in some gaps but it’ll be interesting to play with them to see.