[jmimac351]

Short answer -- buy the best speakers (and subs) you can. Everything else is irrelevant.

I think taking into account what is considered "best" is important, but not most important.  For me, it helps only in as much as it helps me determine what I like.

Some people like driving NC Miatas more than Porsche Cup cars.  That's my point - What I like is most important, and it may or may not be considered "best".   

I would caution others to not allow their list of candidates to be limited / eliminated based on what they read "can, can't, shouldn't, etc". 

[Tyson]

This is an interesting conversation, and I think some of the underlying thinking / commentary applies to more than subs - whether it should or not.  If what I'm hearing right now with the sealed F8 subs in spots that aren't ideal is wrong, then I'm not in a hurry to be right.  I have "visceral rightness".  Those of you with that sound know what I am talking about.

Sub Placement... when we hear about servo subs, we hear how you can "do anything you want with them" because of the tuning adjustments available.  I guess it begs the question, "How good can they be made to be in a less than ideal situation?".  Mine are better than what I had before. I can adjust volume, phase, and I have 7 bands of digital domain PEQ from an RME ADI-2/4 that I can play with (but haven't had the need... just ready).

OB Speaker placement... we hear they "must" come off the wall.  When I was listening to Danny's NX-Treme in March, I made a point to ask him - more than once for a reason - "what would the tone be like if they were pushed up to a few feet off the wall?"  Answer: the tone would stay the same.  Of course it's true the depth / soundstage may change, but you would still have "soundstage" of some sort depending on treatment.  You would still have tone... and you would have SPEED.  But, I would also me missing the 30' deep soundstage produces, while he chuckles when the person sitting on the couch shakes his head about what he's hearing.

Would it still be unbelievable?  Yes.  Because they can't be 6' off the wall, it is a reason to NOT buy them?  I suspect the answer is, No.  My Magnepan 3.7i were in that spot with no treatment.  Less than ideal, still made music... and I thought for quite a while I would not sell them.

Given that, would it be worth it to have tone and speed and maybe some compromise on soundstage, and still own the Otica / XTreme / sealed / OB?  I would argue that it maybe is still something to consider, and I wonder of there are people reading what seem like "recommended absolutes" about placement that cause them to disregard a purchase because "you must place them heer, you can't place them there, that, or the other". 

Would an OB sub in a bad spot still be better than a sealed sub? I used to think that I couldn't have NX-Treme / Otica, etc because I can't get them 6' out into the room, in a particular listening room I have gear setup in.  Well, I don't think that anymore.  I'm not suggesting anyone is wrong about better placement and they won't be better in ideal spots. 

But my goal(s) is this:

• Will I like them?
• Will I like them better than an alternative?
• Will I Have Fun?

I bet it's not a bad... bet.

But then...if sealed subs in "Sub-suboptimal" placements really are a problem, something NOT to do...

What are we gonna tell The Bully?  That's a sealed sub in a "Sub-suboptimal" spot... I suspect those who've heard that speaker don't care about being "right" either.

And all of this is why I'm playing with so many different speakers... but I think I already know where the train stops.

OB speakers are measured from the front of the speaker and box speakers are measured from the back of the speaker re: placement from the wall.  Which means OB speakers aren't that much different from box speakers when it comes to room placement. 

[Bryce22]

without an additional base or top, they are ~27.5 incher tall. If you add 3/4" to each the top and bottom for a decorative look, like our flatpacks, then you're looking no taller than 29-30" at most. That said the dual-forward units will be a little taller than the opposed design.

If you don't mind building them yourself, then you can also go with a W-frame which will be ~4 shorter than the standard H-Frame.

Thanks Hobbs.  I see what you are saying when I look at the cabinet plans regarding height.   The dimensions given for the double troubles with the flatpack show 32 × 24 × 18 in  on the website hence my confusion

[Hobbsmeerkat]

Everything listed under "Additional Information" is 100% related to shipping boxes ONLY.
Sometimes it lists only one box, other times it lists every box in the kit.
Unfortunately with how our site works, we cannot really clarify/specify that, which causes regular confusion.
For instance, out T26 tweeter may only be roughly 3"x3" in size, but the "additional info" tab it might say 9"x6"x6" which is it's shipping box size.

[Chops]

True for sealed subs, but incorrect for OB subs.  OB subs do best when they are close to the main speakers and also pulled at least 3 feet from the walls/corners.

I don't agree with this as I've had OB subs before (and will again one day), and proper placement of them in the room does in fact make a difference. And their location isn't always "best" where the mains are located, especially if you aren't running them up into the 60Hz + range.

[Tyson]

I don't agree with this as I've had OB subs before (and will again one day), and proper placement of them in the room does in fact make a difference. And their location isn't always "best" where the mains are located, especially if you aren't running them up into the 60Hz + range.

Interesting.  I've always run my subs up higher than that, so I am speaking from that experience.  When you run your subs only to 50hz, what are your best practices for OB sub placement?

[Bryce22]

Everything listed under "Additional Information" is 100% related to shipping boxes ONLY.
Sometimes it lists only one box, other times it lists every box in the kit.
Unfortunately with how our site works, we cannot really clarify/specify that, which causes regular confusion.
For instance, out T26 tweeter may only be roughly 3"x3" in size, but the "additional info" tab it might say 9"x6"x6" which is it's shipping box size.

Thanks for clearing that up Hobbs!

[Glady86]

My initial impression of the OB subs is they are probably less sensitive to placement and don’t excite room modes as much. No Eq and fiddling with positions and the are huge improvement over my sealed subs. This is the best level of bass quality I personally heard, but maybe fiddling with stuff will make it even better. Or in other words, I never heard world class bass so I don’t know what to expect, or if it’s possible to get the setup better. If I want to use my projector screen, I have limited placement options. I think I’ll just chill out and enjoy the upgrade for now.

[Early B.]

No Eq and fiddling with positions and they are a huge improvement over my sealed subs. This is the best level of bass quality I personally heard, but maybe fiddling with stuff will make it even better. Or in other words, I never heard world-class bass so I don’t know what to expect, or if it’s possible to get the setup better.

Yeah, they'll sound a lot better once you dial them in. You'll never go back to a box sub.

[Glady86]

I wanted to add the servo control system obviously controls the bass better, and maybe it’s just as important as OB. I can hear the bass notes more clearly, and no resonances or “hanging around” too long bass. Fast bass I guess you call it.

[Tyson]

I wanted to add the servo control system obviously controls the bass better, and maybe it’s just as important as OB. I can hear the bass notes more clearly, and no resonances or “hanging around” too long bass. Fast bass I guess you call it.

You are exactly right.  It's the servo control plus OB that really creates the magic.

[Chops]

Interesting.  I've always run my subs up higher than that, so I am speaking from that experience.  When you run your subs only to 50hz, what are your best practices for OB sub placement?

I've always achieved best results with OB subs a foot or more closer to the front wall than the OB and/or Magnepan mains. Also, using multiple 15" bass drivers with a little larger (wider, deeper) baffles, the quickness of the bass is probably just as good as servo subs as those multiple 15" drivers are barely moving, even at high volumes.

The first OB subs I built over 20 years ago used two cheap Pyle Pro PPA15 drivers per side in H-frames measuring 24"W x 24"D x 36"H. In-room, they were flat to 16Hz, used no EQ to get there, and at peak volume only used roughly 50 watts if that. To this day, those are STILL the best sounding subs I've ever heard at any price, and I've heard a bunch. The only thing that I heard that matched or surpassed them are the MC Audiotech Forty-10 loudspeakers that use two 18" pro drivers per side in W-baffles. And IIRC, they were using a single 40 watt per channel amp to power them.

Cool thing... Well, a few things actually. One, I still have those drivers; Two, Pyle still makes those drivers; and Three, I spoke to both Siegfried Linkwitz (RIP) and Nelson Pass about the use of those drivers in OBs before I ever purchased them, and they both agreed they were a good choice and gave me their blessings on using them in the size baffles I planned on building for them.

For crossover duties, I used an Audio Control Richter Scale Series III with a 50Hz/12dB per octave crossover chip installed (came stock with a 90Hz/12dB chip) and only used the EQ on it to roll off that 50Hz a bit more. For amplification, I used a Carver M-400t amp, and the power LED meter on it hardly ever moved. It was rated for 300 watts at 4 ohms and I had the drivers wired in parallel for a 4 ohm load.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I am going to throw in my 2 cents worth and probably catch hell.  I have the same issues with WAF.  I run a pair of Magnepan 1.6 speakers and use 2 small sealed Martin Logan Dynamo subs.  My son has a Rythmik F12se servo sub that puts out fast, controlled bass but lacks that slam in your chest.  I am not a fan of it.  My 2 ML subs put out (to my ears) just as musical, fast and controlled bass and have better slam.  My ML's certainly appear to keep up with the maggies (I am sure if you were to measure things, the maggies would be faster but I and my  audio friends have not noticed it).

With that being said, I would consider buying a couple of high power sealed subs and use them wirelessly.  That way, you can place them anywhere you want.  Is that optimal, no but I feel it is a good compromise.  You can buy wireless modules from various companies.  Martin Logan, SVS and Elac make them.

Remember, Happy Wife, Happy Life!  My wife is a doll putting up with door panels for speakers and a 6 tier stereo rack in our family room.  After 30 years she is getting tired of it all and I am going to down size, lol.

[Early B.]

I am going to throw in my 2 cents worth and probably catch hell.  I have the same issues with WAF.

You're not alone. After 30+ years, my wife has put up with me turning the den into a stereo room. Initially, I was reluctant to add OB servo subs. I started with one and put it in the corner a few inches from the side wall so it would be discrete. Now I have three dual servo subs in the room and big-ass "monitors" perched on top of two of them. No complaints once she heard the music and she's left me alone for the past 10 years. Of course, the gear has to look good and the wires have to be neatly tucked away. As long as it looks good and makes her feel good, you're good to go.   

[BGA]

I have my pair of double troubles sitting just behind my NX-Oticas and almost right against the side walls. Placement with subs is so room and taste dependant it can vary very much between each person. I had to make a compromise with my placement. My room has a pretty big null around 70 hz and that is where my NX-Oticas roll off in my room so after a bunch of REW measurements best compromise was to have them close the side walls.

I have two sealed Rhythmic 15 subs I use for my HT in the same room. I experimented with them with the NX-Oticas to hear the difference between them and the DT and for music there is a big gap in sound quality. Now the 15's in the corners for HT, they are pretty awesome, lol.

[Glady86]

I have my pair of double troubles sitting just behind my NX-Oticas and almost right against the side walls. Placement with subs is so room and taste dependant it can vary very much between each person. I had to make a compromise with my placement. My room has a pretty big null around 70 hz and that is where my NX-Oticas roll off in my room so after a bunch of REW measurements best compromise was to have them close the side walls.

I have two sealed Rhythmic 15 subs I use for my HT in the same room. I experimented with them with the NX-Oticas to hear the difference between them and the DT and for music there is a big gap in sound quality. Now the 15's in the corners for HT, they are pretty awesome, lol.

  What’s your settings on the plate amps? I’m in the initial stage of dialing in the subs. I have them in the center laying on the sides to start, but could also try the way yours is setup. I have limited options for placement unless I want to block my projector screen. I’m interested in what a good starting point for the volume settings, so far I did by ear. Also, phase seems best at zero. I can measure with REW, but wanted to get a reference of the sound quality without much tinkering before I go down that path. Also, my high pass is 48hz. The Oticas played down into the 40hz range, at least that’s what I measured with REW back when I first built them.

 In other words, I messed with REW with my other speakers and it damn near drove me nuts. But for sub integration I guess it wouldn’t be so bad.

 I used REW mostly to EQ the sealed subs I own, they definitely needed it. The OB subs I don’t think will. I just need to learn more about using measurements to integrate the subs, like Danny’s video on how to integrate your Open Baffle subs.

[Bryce22]

Well, the wife said go with it so I have a flatback on route for the Dual Double Trouble OB Subs.  Wish me luck and thanks for all the help.

[Tyson]

Well, the wife said go with it so I have a flatback on route for the Dual Double Trouble OB Subs.  Wish me luck and thanks for all the help.

Woot!