[Bryce22]

Finishing a pair of NX Studios and given my room size,  I know I will need subs.   Appreciate all the help from Shawn and Lloyd during my build. 
I like the idea of open baffle subs but the wife DOES NOT LIKE THE LOOK of the double stack.  I recently heard the Rel S/510Has in a stereo pair and thought they sounded great.  I now I could go with the sealed pair of servo subs but has anyone tried using a single servo sub in a H-frame?  I know the vast majority have doubles, triples, and I pretty sure I have seen a six pack.  Would it be worth it to try this? I'd like to build a stereo pair of single H-frames understanding that the output would be less and optimal
Thanks

[Early B.]

Build a pair of double troubles and disregard what your wife thinks. The moment she hears the music, she'll understand.   

 

[AK-Grwn_v2]

Build two sealed servo subs and put the studios on top. Set them on a small stand. Now you have some DIY NX Old Schools.

[Bryce22]

Build a pair of double troubles and disregard what your wife thinks. The moment she hears the music, she'll understand.

  Should have thought of that.  Seriously though, this is going to be in our main living space and while a decent size (23x28) with a vaulted ceiling she doesn't want a bunch of large boxes sprawling across the front room.  Guess I'm asking is a pair of sealed subs would better

[Early B.]

Should have thought of that.  Seriously though, this is going to be in our main living space and while a decent size (23x28) with a vaulted ceiling she doesn't want a bunch of large boxes sprawling across the front room.  Guess I'm asking is a pair of sealed subs would better

With a room that size, you'll need at least a pair of triples.

[jmimac351]

Should have thought of that.  Seriously though, this is going to be in our main living space and while a decent size (23x28) with a vaulted ceiling she doesn't want a bunch of large boxes sprawling across the front room.  Guess I'm asking is a pair of sealed subs would better

I am using these Rythmik F8 subs with my Wilson Duette, but much of the idea for buying them is this picture.  The room these are in is bigger than yours and open to a dining room, foyer, and large kitchen.  It's a very large space with tall ceilings.  For me, with the Wilsons, they fill the space very, very well.  I was running them hard today and noticed just a slight bit of strain.  I have them set to the middle setting so they can play higher output, but not below 20Hz (I think).  I have plenty of bass.  To help with that ease at higher volumes, which is rare that I play fairly loud, I bought 4 of these - 2 pair... 8x 8" servo drivers. Those are sitting in the corner.  I think that was a good idea as, when I get around to hooking them up, the setup will be capable of even more ease and clarity at that same "aggressive" volume I notice a bit of strain. 

I may end up with OB subs one day, but I am playing with many different things.  The setup I have with these is already so, so good...

What you can't see is that the F8 sub is on top of 2-2x8 boards to raise the NX-Studio tweeter level.  So, if I want these sitting on top of the sub, I will make a base for the F8 sub to sit on. A triple set of these 8" drivers in a sealed cabinet would be ideal, if someone wants a sealed setup - which I have been very happy with so far.  And given the vertical spacing needed, it looks like a pair of triple 8" would be great for height.  These are far superior to the SVS SB16-Ultra subs I just sold.  They are faster / more musical, and play plenty low enough to add that presence needed from true low end bass.

People don't "need" 7' tall speakers and sub towers to have great sound, world class sound even... but that stuff sure sounds good too!


 

[Norman Tracy]

"... but that stuff sure sounds good too!" Yes, especially when driven by Ayre amps!

[TRADERXFAN]

Finishing a pair of NX Studios and given my room size,  I know I will need subs.   Appreciate all the help from Shawn and Lloyd during my build. 
I like the idea of open baffle subs but the wife DOES NOT LIKE THE LOOK of the double stack.  I recently heard the Rel S/510Has in a stereo pair and thought they sounded great.  I now I could go with the sealed pair of servo subs but has anyone tried using a single servo sub in a H-frame?  I know the vast majority have doubles, triples, and I pretty sure I have seen a six pack.  Would it be worth it to try this? I'd like to build a stereo pair of single H-frames understanding that the output would be less and optimal
Thanks

simple put removable grills on them

[Norman Tracy]

My suggestion is one or two of these:

https://gr-research.com/product/servo-sub-kit-2/

https://gr-research.com/product/sub-series-servo-sealed/

You could try it as a single drive H-frame and see if the limited displacement is a deal breaker for your room and listening habits. If one driver in open baffle configuration is insufficient reuse driver and servo plate amp in a sealed box.

[Hobbsmeerkat]

My suggestion is one or two of these:

https://gr-research.com/product/servo-sub-kit-2/

https://gr-research.com/product/sub-series-servo-sealed/

You could try it as a single drive H-frame and see if the limited displacement is a deal breaker for your room and listening habits. If one driver in open baffle configuration is insufficient reuse driver and servo plate amp in a sealed box.

I would recommend against that. My worry about that is that the sealed driver in that kit has a much softer suspension than the 16FR version used in the OB kits, and the amplifier also lacks the shelving circuit. You'll run out of X-max in a hurry as without the 4 ohm woofer being in a sealed/ported box, it's losing half of it's suspension.
just stick to a sealed configuration.

[Norman Tracy]

I would recommend against that. My worry about that is that the sealed driver in that kit has a much softer suspension than the 16FR version used in the OB kits, and the amplifier also lacks the shelving circuit. You'll run out of X-max in a hurry as without the 4 ohm woofer being in a sealed/ported box, it's losing half of it's suspension.
just stick to a sealed configuration.

I stand corrected, that is a very important detail. Experiments I did in the early 2000s used non-GR non-servo drivers with quite stiff suspensions. Should have known GR is too rigorous not to use proper loose suspension drivers in a sealed box application.

Given we are on the GR Circle my primary goal is to remind this thread's readers GR has sealed sub solutions in catalog. GR has such a strong reputation for open baffle subs the sealed offerings tend to get overshadowed.

[WGH]

Yes, you have a dilemma. First, great choice in speakers. Second, I agree with your wife.

Dual subs would be needed to optimally fill out the bass in your large room, but not for the reasons you think. Audiophiles think "Big room = big subs." That is partly true if you want bass to 20 Hz. Even though the NX Studios are an excellent small speaker they would not be my first choice for a full range system. Why? Because they roll off at 70 Hz. I think a super fast sub like my REL G1 Mk II, which easily goes down to 20 Hz isn't fast enough at 70 Hz to blend in seamlessly. I had the smaller REL G2 with the 10" driver and it sounded faster at higher frequencies which is why the REL S/510 worked so well with the NX Studio. A single fast sub will sorta kinda work but you will want more.

A guy in our audio club has a pair of the SEAS Froy Mk3 speakers which supposedly go down to 40 Hz but I don't think so, probably 60 Hz if I'm generous. Bass is a pair of sealed Rythmik down firing subs in custom cabinets that look like fine furniture in each front corner. Our group has always though there is a hole between the low and upper bass. No amount of adjusting can fix it. Probably the nature of down firing bass.

I recently heard the Salk BePure 1 monitor speakers in a room smaller than yours (14 feet wide, 22 feet long, 13.5 foot high vaulted ceiling). These speakers have bass in spades, -3dB at 36 Hz. The system didn't have any subs, there was hints of bass on some recordings but overall the setup sounded somewhat light in room that was too big for them. The BePure 1 speakers would be easy to integrate into a full range system because they go down to 36 Hz.

Another guy in our group has the NX Studio speakers. I have heard them in his small room and larger living room. I really liked them in the small room which also has a small REL sub with a 8" driver. Imaging, space, and tonality was an A. The large room not so much, it was a bad speaker demo which demonstrates that setup matters a lot. The room would have to be completely rearranged and sub re-adjusted. The NX Studio can't be plopped into a room and sound great.

Look for a sub that can easily go up to 70 Hz - 80 Hz which may still be non-directional bass but there might be some frequencies that overlap with the NX Studio so some notes may be pulled to a single sub. I don't have any experience crossing over to a single sub that high, other people will have to chime in. A crazy idea is to look at a Home Theater Sub. Big output for big rooms and because home theater speakers are rolled off at 80 Hz the HT subs are designed with higher frequencies in mind. 

[mlundy57]

Another option for solid output flat to 30Hz is to put the studio monitors on Danny's "Best Speaker Stands Ever". These are speaker stands with servo subwoofers built in. Similar to what I had at LSAF this year:










I built this pair a little different that the original plans. They were built 5" shorter so that when GAIA isolation footers were used under the stands and Orea footers between the stands and the Studio Monitors, the tweeter would be at 39". This required removing the amp from the stands and using it outboard like with the 12" OB subs. I also used the A370XLR3 amps instead of the HX300s the stands were designed for. There were three reasons for the amp switch; the HX300 is no longer available and at least at the time of the show it's replacement was not yet available, my electronics use balanced connections and the A370XLR amps are the only ones with balanced inputs, and I prefer the A370 series amps for their increased connectivity and adjustment options.

Other build options are:
1) make it to the original plans and don't use tall isolation devices unless your seating position puts your ear height high enough and build the amp into the stands when they become available, or
2)  make the stands taller, leave the amp separate, and add a third driver. This is how the triple 8" base for the Wedgies was designed, just for the studio monitors, make the stands rectangular instead of wedge shaped.






I plan on making a pair of the triple driver version speaker stands. I liked the performance of the three driver version better than the two driver version and I don't mind having the amps separate. The trade off will be not using such tall isolation devices.

[Glady86]

Build a pair of double troubles and disregard what your wife thinks. The moment she hears the music, she'll understand.   

 

 After finally hearing these things, this is the best advice. Good luck with your project, and your wife.

[Chops]

Another option for solid output flat to 30Hz is to put the studio monitors on Danny's "Best Speaker Stands Ever". These are speaker stands with servo subwoofers built in. Similar to what I had at LSAF this year:










I built this pair a little different that the original plans. They were built 5" shorter so that when GAIA isolation footers were used under the stands and Orea footers between the stands and the Studio Monitors, the tweeter would be at 39". This required removing the amp from the stands and using it outboard like with the 12" OB subs. I also used the A370XLR3 amps instead of the HX300s the stands were designed for. There were three reasons for the amp switch; the HX300 is no longer available and at least at the time of the show it's replacement was not yet available, my electronics use balanced connections and the A370XLR amps are the only ones with balanced inputs, and I prefer the A370 series amps for their increased connectivity and adjustment options.

Other build options are:
1) make it to the original plans and don't use tall isolation devices unless your seating position puts your ear height high enough and build the amp into the stands when they become available, or
2)  make the stands taller, leave the amp separate, and add a third driver. This is how the triple 8" base for the Wedgies was designed, just for the studio monitors, make the stands rectangular instead of wedge shaped.






I plan on making a pair of the triple driver version speaker stands. I liked the performance of the three driver version better than the two driver version and I don't mind having the amps separate. The trade off will be not using such tall isolation devices.

A great solution, though where you have to put those subs to be used as the mains' stands, they most likely won't be in the ideal locations for a flat bass response in the room.

[Tyson]

A great solution, though where you have to put those subs to be used as the mains' stands, they most likely won't be in the ideal locations for a flat bass response in the room.

True for sealed subs, but incorrect for OB subs.  OB subs do best when they are close to the main speakers and also pulled at least 3 feet from the walls/corners.

[Bryce22]

Appreciate all the commentary everyone.  Seeing those "Best Speak Stands Ever"  or  those by Mlundy57,  seem like provide somewhat of a compromise.  Another thing I can't square is the tweeter height if I place the NX Studio on top of the Double Trouble.  Aren't those 32" tall?  My stands are 26.5" and work with my listening position which is around 40" high.  With the Double Trouble wouldn't that grow by about 6"  How are you addressing tweeter height using the double trouble as a stand?   

[Hobbsmeerkat]

Appreciate all the commentary everyone.  Seeing those "Best Speak Stands Ever"  or  those by Mlundy57,  seem like provide somewhat of a compromise.  Another thing I can't square is the tweeter height if I place the NX Studio on top of the Double Trouble.  Aren't those 32" tall?  My stands are 26.5" and work with my listening position which is around 40" high.  With the Double Trouble wouldn't that grow by about 6"  How are you addressing tweeter height using the double trouble as a stand?   

without an additional base or top, they are ~27.5 incher tall. If you add 3/4" to each the top and bottom for a decorative look, like our flatpacks, then you're looking no taller than 29-30" at most. That said the dual-forward units will be a little taller than the opposed design.

If you don't mind building them yourself, then you can also go with a W-frame which will be ~4 shorter than the standard H-Frame.

[jmimac351]

This is an interesting conversation, and I think some of the underlying thinking / commentary applies to more than subs - whether it should or not.  If what I'm hearing right now with the sealed F8 subs in spots that aren't ideal is wrong, then I'm not in a hurry to be right.  I have "visceral rightness".  Those of you with that sound know what I am talking about.

Sub Placement... when we hear about servo subs, we hear how you can "do anything you want with them" because of the tuning adjustments available.  I guess it begs the question, "How good can they be made to be in a less than ideal situation?".  Mine are better than what I had before. I can adjust volume, phase, and I have 7 bands of digital domain PEQ from an RME ADI-2/4 that I can play with (but haven't had the need... just ready).

OB Speaker placement... we hear they "must" come off the wall.  When I was listening to Danny's NX-Treme in March, I made a point to ask him - more than once for a reason - "what would the tone be like if they were pushed up to a few feet off the wall?"  Answer: the tone would stay the same.  Of course it's true the depth / soundstage may change, but you would still have "soundstage" of some sort depending on treatment.  You would still have tone... and you would have SPEED.  But, I would also me missing the 30' deep soundstage produces, while he chuckles when the person sitting on the couch shakes his head about what he's hearing.

Would it still be unbelievable?  Yes.  Because they can't be 6' off the wall, it is a reason to NOT buy them?  I suspect the answer is, No.  My Magnepan 3.7i were in that spot with no treatment.  Less than ideal, still made music... and I thought for quite a while I would not sell them.

Given that, would it be worth it to have tone and speed and maybe some compromise on soundstage, and still own the Otica / XTreme / sealed / OB?  I would argue that it maybe is still something to consider, and I wonder of there are people reading what seem like "recommended absolutes" about placement that cause them to disregard a purchase because "you must place them heer, you can't place them there, that, or the other". 

Would an OB sub in a bad spot still be better than a sealed sub? I used to think that I couldn't have NX-Treme / Otica, etc because I can't get them 6' out into the room, in a particular listening room I have gear setup in.  Well, I don't think that anymore.  I'm not suggesting anyone is wrong about better placement and they won't be better in ideal spots. 

But my goal(s) is this:

• Will I like them?
• Will I like them better than an alternative?
• Will I Have Fun?

I bet it's not a bad... bet.

But then...if sealed subs in "Sub-suboptimal" placements really are a problem, something NOT to do...

What are we gonna tell The Bully?  That's a sealed sub in a "Sub-suboptimal" spot... I suspect those who've heard that speaker don't care about being "right" either.

And all of this is why I'm playing with so many different speakers... but I think I already know where the train stops.

[Early B.]

This is an interesting conversation, and I think some of the underlying thinking / commentary applies to more than subs - whether it should or not.  If what I'm hearing right now with the sealed F8 subs in spots that aren't ideal is wrong, then I'm not in a hurry to be right.  I have "visceral rightness".  Those of you with that sound know what I am talking about.

Sub Placement... when we hear about servo subs, we hear how you can "do anything you want with them" because of the tuning adjustments available.  I guess it begs the question, "How good can they be made to be in a less than ideal situation?".  Mine are better than what I had before. I can adjust volume, phase, and I have 7 bands of digital domain PEQ from an RME ADI-2/4 that I can play with (but haven't had the need... just ready).

OB Speaker placement... we hear they "must" come off the wall.  When I was listening to Danny's NX-Treme in March, I made a point to ask him - more than once for a reason - "what would the tone be like if they were pushed up to a few feet off the wall?"  Answer: the tone would stay the same.  Of course it's true the depth / soundstage may change, but you would still have "soundstage" of some sort depending on treatment.  You would still have tone... and you would have SPEED.  But, I would also me missing the 30' deep soundstage produces, while he chuckles when the person sitting on the couch shakes his head about what he's hearing.

Would it still be unbelievable?  Yes.  Because they can't be 6' off the wall, it is a reason to NOT buy them?  I suspect the answer is, No.  My Magnepan 3.7i were in that spot with no treatment.  Less than ideal, still made music... and I thought for quite a while I would not sell them.

Given that, would it be worth it to have tone and speed and maybe some compromise on soundstage, and still own the Otica / XTreme / sealed / OB?  I would argue that it maybe is still something to consider, and I wonder of there are people reading what seem like "recommended absolutes" about placement that cause them to disregard a purchase because "you must place them heer, you can't place them there, that, or the other". 

Would an OB sub in a bad spot still be better than a sealed sub? I used to think that I couldn't have NX-Treme / Otica, etc because I can't get them 6' out into the room, in a particular listening room I have gear setup in.  Well, I don't think that anymore.  I'm not suggesting anyone is wrong about better placement and they won't be better in ideal spots. 

But my goal(s) is this:

• Will I like them?
• Will I like them better than an alternative?
• Will I Have Fun?

I bet it's not a bad... bet.

But then...if sealed subs in "Sub-suboptimal" placements really are a problem, something NOT to do...

What are we gonna tell The Bully?  That's a sealed sub in a "Sub-suboptimal" spot... I suspect those who've heard that speaker don't care about being "right" either.

And all of this is why I'm playing with so many different speakers... but I think I already know whether the train stops.

Short answer -- buy the best speakers (and subs) you can. Everything else is irrelevant.