[Larry648]

My tone arm sweeps to the left when I try to play auto. I used a bubble level and found that I needed to raise the left front leg by the width of a drink coaster. This solved the problem. But my audio doctor technician insists a turntable will still play records even if it is 15% off of level. I just want to know how much off of level will still allow a record to play. 

[FullRangeMan]

My tone arm sweeps to the left when I try to play auto. I used a bubble level and found that I needed to raise the left front leg by the width of a drink coaster. This solved the problem. But my audio doctor technician insists a turntable will still play records even if it is 15% off of level. I just want to know how much off of level will still allow a record to play. 

Welcome to AC
I will move your post to the Vinyl Circle where experts will analyze this question,

[thorman]

Leveling a Turntable is important if nothing else the Anti Skate can be affected big time with a table out of level. Leveling 4 feet can be tricky. I suggest try using 3 Spikes ( Points Up ) . Shim the one spike that is Low to make level.. Use the 2 Spikes on the Heavy side ( front or back ) and the single on the Light Side ..

[Letitroll98]

First thing to ask is why is your table so unlevel.  Random thoughts before you answer:  A uni pivot arm will be more sensitive to leveling than a gimbled arm.  The table will play out of level, but not as well as if is level.  Bearings are the most important thing in turntables and they like to be level.  I would note that the feet on many tables are integral to the suspension so bypassing them may be detrimental.  Leveling the support under the table may be more effective than trying to level non adjustable feet.

[Craig B]

I recall back in the '70s a record changer manufacturer proclaiming in their advertising that their players would work upside down, due to their "dynamically balanced" tonearm or some other such marketing fluff. I think their point was that they didn't rely on the position of the counterweight to apply tracking force, but used some spring-applied pressure instead.

[nlitworld]

My Schiit Sol had no leveling feet but it did have little sorbothane bumpers that screwed into the bottom of it. I saw a post where someone made leveling feet using computer motherboard standoff screws, glued on ball bearings and placed them on a dime with a tiny hole inside for securing it. I copied that and made them a better audiophile version by using silver dollars which must sound better because it was more expensive. I didn't need the original little sorbothane bumpers because the entire table sits on a block that has sound deadening pads and supported by sorbothane orbs.

[jjss49]

leveling is key -- use your spirit level at the line where the record is being tracked by the cart...

[mick wolfe]

My tone arm sweeps to the left when I try to play auto. I used a bubble level and found that I needed to raise the left front leg by the width of a drink coaster. This solved the problem. But my audio doctor technician insists a turntable will still play records even if it is 15% off of level. I just want to know how much off of level will still allow a record to play. 

Don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but you've gotten bad advice from your "guru". Turntables do their best work when leveled. This would be especially true if you had an air bearing linear tracking arm. That said and much like the  Schiit Sol mentioned above, my WTL Amadeus had no leveling feature. I simply built a base/platform that could be adjusted for leveling purposes. Threaded inserts at each corner of the base/platform with a companion spike or bolt of your choice to do the adjustment.

leveling is key -- use your spirit level at the line where the record is being tracked by the cart...

[twitch54]

But my audio doctor technician insists a turntable will still play records even if it is 15% off of level.

your audio doctor is a quack

I just want to know how much off of level will still allow a record to play. 

leveling of ones TT is but one of many important setup factors for proper record playback. Sorry, there is just so much wrong with your question.......

[Phil_S]

If you wish to get the most out of your analog front end AND don't want to damage your record collection, get the turntable absolutely level. Not close, get it spot on.  This is the first step to setting up the turntable.  Both anti-skate and VTF are sensitive to a table not being level.  Sure it will play +-15 degrees but it won't play well and will ruin the record.

There's a huge amount of information on this here.  Do a search on turntable setup.  Watch Fremmer's setup video's.  Search you tube. 

I agree with twitch, your technician is a quack.

[lazydays]

My tone arm sweeps to the left when I try to play auto. I used a bubble level and found that I needed to raise the left front leg by the width of a drink coaster. This solved the problem. But my audio doctor technician insists a turntable will still play records even if it is 15% off of level. I just want to know how much off of level will still allow a record to play. 

always level the turn table! I used to use a high precision bubble level I'd bring home from work. Later I just used to machinest levels place 90 degrees apart. Mine are six inch ones that I place ontop a 14" parallel bar that I made (remember the turn table platter is dished on the top). This was better than placing the levels on the outside rim of the platter. Have also done the same job with two dollar torpedo levels (check them to see if they are good).

Most turn tables these days come with four leveling feet. This is bad!!! Three points will create a perfect plain, but you can never achieve this with four points. In the end the table will be moving on the one loose end. You learned that in Geometry. I have see a couple guys remove the four feet and replace them with three (two on the tone arm side, and one in the center of the other end). Really not all that hard to do.
gary

[SET Man]

your audio doctor is a quack

leveling of ones TT is but one of many important setup factors for proper record playback. Sorry, there is just so much wrong with your question.......

Hey!

   Yup! Time to look for a new "audio doctor" 

    The first step setting up turntable is to level it. Of course it will play even it set off kilter to a certain point but like some of posters mentioned that it will play but something like anti skating will be off.

    By the way, there are vertical turntables out there. I still don't know how those work. But personally it seems so wrong and really freaks me out. Since the start of the first 78rpm shellac disc were meant to be play flat horizontally.

Buddy

[Elizabeth]

I level the stand, then level the butcher block, then the TT on the butcher block.
Both current TT have three feet (by chance) and it does make it easier to level them.
I use exotic woodblocks, and the easiest way is to swap the slightly uneven blocks around
I have also used Post it notes. Mainly because they are equal size thin shims.
I use a flat quality level trying all over the TT.  It is nice if the spindle can be removed. One TT yes other nope.
One TT has dual side bearings, the other unipivot

[lazydays]

I level the stand, then level the butcher block, then the TT on the butcher block.
Both current TT have three feet (by chance) and it does make it easier to level them.
I use exotic woodblocks, and the easiest way is to swap the slightly uneven blocks around
I have also used Post it notes. Mainly because they are equal size thin shims.
I use a flat quality level trying all over the TT.  It is nice if the spindle can be removed. One TT yes other nope.
One TT has dual side bearings, the other unipivot

Postem Notes are usually .004" thick. The cellophene wrapper on a pack of cigarettes is usually .001" in case you want to really fine tune the feet. Never been real fond of butcher blocks, but many love them. I use a Ginko Cloud with all the racket balls in place. I can hear the difference. I once leveled one of my tables (the Opera) to where it was about .0005" in a foot. Somewhat of an overkill, but I had the time. The I put the level on top the pad the tone arm bolts to. I was in shock! It was out of level by about .008" to .010"; while the platter was dead on the mark. At work I had a small cigar box full of scrap pieces of plastic shim stock, and the next day I was cutting shims to get the tone arm in the same plain with the platter. After about five tries I had it within a half thousandth of an inch. Knew how to fix it right, but just never found the time to get that done. I think this was as important as leveling the platter, and you noticed it during soft music. The bass even moved a little to the right. Later I brought home a vibration aynalizer to hunt feed back. Turns out the tone arm bracket was an antenna for picking it up, and the motor was even worse. I had to live with the tone arm mount, but made several different isolation devices for the motor. I know what to do, but the cost was crazy silly. Down the road I took some of the motor noise out by setting the feet on top of used carbide inserts. Carbide is hard to get a vibration thru. Another thing with regards to setting up a turn table, is to disregard the tracking force settings on the arm. I check mine with an electronic scale. The arm was way off! Lastly; if your table has a dust cover; then ditch it! That cover in the upright position is a very good antenna for picking up vibration.

I'm just starting to build a new audio rack. The bottom shelves with be about two inches thick because my amps weigh 75lb. a piece. I'll add the leveling jack in the center of each plate to further fight vibration. The top (where the turntable will reside) will be either black composite granite, or maple. The tubes will be filled with cat litter or grout (cat litter is easier to work with). The other shelves will be 3/4" granite cut to fit (Lowes sells 24" square pieces). The composite is the best for fighting feed back (vibration).

Lastly, you can never get all the feed back out of the system! If your perfect, you'll still find a 60hz. vibration going thru it. The source is you house current (50hz. in the UK I might add). There is a way to counter act that, but it cost more than two good mono bloc amps!
gary

[Letitroll98]

Umm, wow.  I would laugh about having those spare parts and equipment lying around the office, but my brother likely does, or did.   He's a metrologist, the science of weights and measures, for a giant international instrument company.  He's moved up so far in administration that I doubt be does hands on stuff anymore, but years ago I visited his work and it looked like a UFO repair facility.  I can't imagine many of us have access to this level of sophistication, but I applaud your efforts, impressive.

[lazydays]

Umm, wow.  I would laugh about having those spare parts and equipment lying around the office, but my brother likely does, or did.   He's a metrologist, the science of weights and measures, for a giant international instrument company.  He's moved up so far in administration that I doubt be does hands on stuff anymore, but years ago I visited his work and it looked like a UFO repair facility.  I can't imagine many of us have access to this level of sophistication, but I applaud your efforts, impressive.

Vibration has literally became a monster over the last twenty five years in industrial situations. The equipment just seemed to get better by the month. We used it to predict machine failures (bad bearings and miss-alignment stand out). It went so far as to bring in electronic levels (good ones are very expensive). Then we learned to balance rotating parts with it, and a little later to balance the electrical drives. All this coupled with a good DC amp meter proved to us we were on the right track.

Working close (as we call it) is purely a mental state if you have the right equipment. Once your in the five tenths range; it often is simple to get to two tenths. Then you learn the black art of splitting that to one ten-thousandth of an inch. That's where most sane people give up. After that you quit counting numbers as we know it, and move into arc seconds. I can do that very well, but looking over my shoulder is scary. Not really if you under stand the way it works. Makes me wish I'd payed better attention in Geometry while in high school!
gary

[Letitroll98]

His division builds calibration equipment that calibrates calibration equipment, so he works in the molecular level, quantum time scales are common.  So yeah, it can all get very precise.  Back on topic I wonder how level can make an audible difference.  I've always been happy with a bubble level and haven't noticed any ill effects from my impreciseness.

[lazydays]

His division builds calibration equipment that calibrates calibration equipment, so he works in the molecular level, quantum time scales are common.  So yeah, it can all get very precise.  Back on topic I wonder how level can make an audible difference.  I've always been happy with a bubble level and haven't noticed any ill effects from my impreciseness.

honestly; this is only guessing, so take it for what it's worth to you. I think it's near impossible to get the anti skate right without first leveling the platform as close as you can (with out going mad). The anti skate is something I don't completely understand, but on the other hand I know enough to get in trouble as well. Many years back, I had a friend who was a much sought after electrical engineer. He used to set up his anti skate numbers with a Simpson volt meter. I was a kid and failed to grasp what Duke was doing then. A few years later he did it with a scope. The one issue I ran into with the tone arm not following the plain of the LP was odd, but also understandable. In this case the tone was actually rising out of the groove as it traversed across the face of the LP. I know why, but can't understand how it got shipped that way. I fixed it in a rather crude way, but got the same results as if I re-machined that face parallel to where it mounted. By the way doing that little bit of machining would also have been a bear. Metal will often change as you machine it (your relieving internal stresses as you remove metal). You can Cryo treat it, or even worship it, but it still will. A few thousandths on that bolt face triangulates to several times that number as the tone arm travels across the surface.
Anti skate is still a black hole to me, but hear it from one channel to the other.

Another little tid bit I came into was with speakers. We have all had speakers that just left something to be desired. I know I have more than once.
Getting that table as perfect as you can and reducing feed back to the minimum often make changes the whole sound of the speaker. I once had a pair of Meadowlark Hot Rods that sounded pretty damned good as they were out of the box. Just for kicks I sat them ontop of 12" concrete stepping stones. The highs extended for miles (it seemed) and the bass was a tad bit tighter. The issue was once again feed back. The stepping stones were a pricey two dollars a piece, but also ugly (so she said).

My favorite turn table is an Acoustic Signature Final Tool. I'm still tinkering with it after ten years. The machine work was some of the best I've ever seen come out of Germany. I traced the feed back down to the tone arm mounting plate and the arm itself. I can't fix the arm! The mounting plate is a flat piece of aluminum with a hole in the center and some threaded holes (the Rega arm plate). Sometime in the near future I'll bite the bullet and buy a couple pieces of Mallory Metal ($$$). Make two different mounts. M.M. does not vibrate very much if any at all. Has all the properties of soft lead, but is safe to be around. I'd guess the metal will cost me close to $50 for two 4" diameter piece 1.5" thick. The OEM wants $280 for their tone arm mounts I might add. It will cost me about fifty bucks and a quart of Crown Royal to get it all machined. Anyway; I'll sleep better knowing I got that issue out of the way!
gary

[Letitroll98]

I have a pair of Shearwater Hot Rods now.  Unfortunately both bass drivers went silent after a Uhaul move, I've yet to open them up for repair, that is one sweet tweeter.  Antiskate, or anti bias as I think it should be called, is never correct.  The force needed varies across the record and with modulation level.  Anyone who says they can set the correct anti bias force by any method is lying, you can only get an approximate value that works best for you.  I do it by ear using Liz Story's Solid Colors album, when the piano is equal in volume across the soundstage it's right.  A person I respect very much, screen name BaMorin, uses tracks with a strong bass line far back in the middle of the soundstage, when it's centered the force is correct.  Another tool is the HFN&RR test record which has an anti bias section.  The highest modulated tracks will set it too high, but are a good illustration of how different levels will vary the force needed.  Many use a blank section of vinyl, this couldn't be more wrong as it eliminates the groove modulation level factor.

[lazydays]

I have a pair of Shearwater Hot Rods now.  Unfortunately both bass drivers went silent after a Uhaul move, I've yet to open them up for repair, that is one sweet tweeter.  Antiskate, or anti bias as I think it should be called, is never correct.  The force needed varies across the record and with modulation level.  Anyone who says they can set the correct anti bias force by any method is lying, you can only get an approximate value that works best for you.  I do it by ear using Liz Story's Solid Colors album, when the piano is equal in volume across the soundstage it's right.  A person I respect very much, screen name BaMorin, uses tracks with a strong bass line far back in the middle of the soundstage, when it's centered the force is correct.  Another tool is the HFN&RR test record which has an anti bias section.  The highest modulated tracks will set it too high, but are a good illustration of how different levels will vary the force needed.  Many use a blank section of vinyl, this couldn't be more wrong as it eliminates the groove modulation level factor.

sad story about the hot rods! I loved mine to death. Yet down the road I planned on getting a pair of Blue Herons. Probably busted up an internal fuse or a wire came loose during the move. I have two or three records I test my system with. Janis Ian's Between The Lines is a good one. If you listening to piano music, first read on the cover to see the equipment list. Many will use an electric piano (not the Korg electric keyboard), and of course the sound is a little different. A jazz trio or quartet can be pretty good if you know the layout when recorded. Almost all of them put the drums to the extreme right, and the bass in the middle at the back; with key boards to the left side. Not always that way, but is the usual. I've listened to CD's where the bass and drums traded places! Drums in the center can be one of two things. The leader is a drummer, or an ego trip. Just creates a mess. A sax guy will move around a bit, so you cannot move off him.

thanks for your reply
gary