[DBC]

ozoid wrote:

But I think we're talking about two different things. You could perfect the room acoustics and component isolation and you'd still have to face the fact that you're mixing drivers with at least slightly different characteristics. It's not just the crossover; when I visited Decware World Headquarters we listened to the Super Zen through two-way monitors that Steve Deckert has managed to design without a crossover. They were very good; but not quite as coherent as a single-driver Omega.

Hi ozoid,

In theory I would agree with your statement "you'd still have to face the fact that you're mixing drivers with at least slightly different characteristics". In actual practice however in my room with my equipment the 6-1/2" Omega driver and 12" Sub driver integrate seamlessly. Louis addresses the Driver Integration concern you mention in this quote from his website: "The deepOMEGA 12 differs from most subwoofers on the market in that it excels in speed, tuneful bass, and IMPACT, over Earth shaking subterranean bass. Easily able to keep up with the fastest of speakers. Look at the small surround on the featherweight short throw driver cone and you will instantly see this ain't no regular sub".

I think we also have to consider the frequency range and how the Human Brain processes that information. Let's assume the audible frequency range for Humans is 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz. In the example you site with the Decware monitor, as I recall the main Driver and Ribbon Tweeter overlap somewhere in the 8,000 Hz range. This would be at about the 40% point of our audible frequency range.

In my case I'm augmenting from 150 Hz and down. This is the bottom 1% of our entire audible frequency range. It's well documented that the Human ear's sensitivity to frequencies below 200 Hz starts to drop off rapidly. Human Ear Sensitivity By Frequency: http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/ear_sensitivity.htm 

So I'm not sure that Human hearing and the Brain process the audible information in these two examples exactly the same ???  So I go back to the the points I attempted to make in my original post: With a reasonable Listening Space, the proper Sub, Proper Placement Techniques, and Proper Connection Methods it is possible to get Seamless Integration between your Omega single driver speakers and DeepOmega Subwoofer.

Do my Omega Alnico Monitors require a Sub? Absolutely Not. I have a large listening area and the Bass has never been better on Quality Recordings. Where I find the Sub particularly helpful is with Older and Lower Quality recordings. I listen to a lot of Joplin, Jefferson Airplane, Hendrix, Cream, etc. and Older Live Recordings. A Sub properly implemented brings Warmth & Punch that are actually on the recording to the surface. I also find music listening more satisfying at lower overall volume. And as Louis states on the website, I get better Defined Imaging.

[vinagunner]

Excellent post, DBC

[ozoid]

As it happens, we have an overlap in musical tastes. Only the night before you posted about Joplin, the Airplane, Cream, etc., I had listened to the first two of a three-disc Joplin set. There are a few tracks with just Janis and Jorma Kaukonen recorded in his living room, probably with a consumer grade ¼" reel-to-reel and some really cheap mics. They didn't even ask someone in the room to stop typing! Nonetheless, the Omegas' musicality came through; the tracks were listenable. Not sure that would have happened with the Acoustats and a big SS amp.

After I read the post where you mentioned the Airplane, I cued up "After Bathing at Baxters" and took a few notes on how the Alnicos were presenting Jack Casady's bass without subs. I think some specificity helps here when discussing the tone of a bass instrument, rather than Bass as a generic audiophile term. Although Jack dialed in a very deep tone on "Martha" and "Wild Thyme," I could still hear the percussive effects from his distinctive right-hand technique. (Incidentally, during the early years of Hot Tuna, I got a close-up look at that remarkable technique when I somehow managed to wrangle a spot just off-stage at the Fillmore East. Never seen anybody play like that before or since.) On "Rejoyce" he's using a woodier tone that might mark the beginning of the mods Alembic was making around this time on his Guild Starfire semi-hollowbody. There's some intricate interplay between bass and the piano's bass register and the tone of both instruments remains distinct so you can follow both lines, even when they converge. My copy of the album includes some bonus tracks, including a "single" version of "Martha." Jack's attack here is so percussive and the sustain is so strong it almost sounds like tabla.

You bring up an interesting question about hearing vs. perception of low frequencies. I read recently that when it comes to tones below 200 Hz, what's actually happening is that we're hearing those overtones I mentioned earlier and from that our brain imputes the fundamental tone, which we can barely hear.

I think it's important to remember that the subwoofers themselves are also putting out overtones according to the subs' own character, even if the signal's filtered so the subs are only receiving a signal below 150 Hz. The overtone cycle of the sub is what my friend John was referring to when he said that his (non-Omega) subs sounded out of tune. Louis on his web site is largely addressing timing, which is another issue with a lot of subwoofers. And I wouldn't be surprised to learn that having the the subOMEGAs fire down at the floor helps dampen the overtones.

I think there are two issues here: one is what we have in our heads as a live music reference. I listen to a lot of classical chamber music, jazz, blues and country from the ’30s onward to the present and I had the great good fortune of actually hearing, on a weekly basis for several years, a rhythm section of masters from the acoustic era: drummer Barrett Deems had been in Louis Armstrong's small group for more than five years in the ’50s; bassist Truck Parham (http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/23/nyregion/truck-parham-91-jazz-bassist-for-7-decades.html) could still drive a band in a large saloon without an amplifier and he had a rich tone that varied with each note of a 4/4 walk. Armstrong once said if you had to ask what swing is you'd never know, but if you heard that band and couldn't figure out something about swing, Jack, you're dead.

The second issue is economics. A number of queries on this forum come from people who can afford only to buy a pair of Super 3is and subs or Alnicos and no subs. A lot of people have a hard time getting their head around the idea that one driver can take care of the entire frequency range. But at least for some people, in some rooms, listening to some kinds of music, subs would be extraneous and may even skew the frequency balance and muddy some of the rich tonality that Alnicos can offer. Unless you have an un-limited budget (and maybe even then) everything in audio is a matter of managing trade-offs. Subs give you an opportunity to augment the lower frequencies, at a cost of intonation and, perhaps, a bit of fine tonal detail that probably wasn't there anyway on electric bass recordings. That's a great audio trade-off: you're giving up something that doesn't really matter to you.

Just in case it needs to be said, if I were to buy subwoofers of course they would be Omegas. And some day, in a different listening room, I might. My PSB desktop speakers were designed with a matching sub and the whole package is quite musical if miniature.

What the hell, I could always turn off the subs when they get in the way.

[celebrat]

I have had the Alnico monitors for couple of months now and would have to say they are completely broken in. I have them well out in the room for maximum imaging and minimum room interaction. I do not believe this set up to be optimal without subwoofers as the Monitors by themselves, can really benefit from being closer to the room boundaries. I am using them in conjunction with a set of 2 GR Research 2X12" servo sub woofers. These subwoofers are very fast, very deep (15hz) and crossover up to about 170hz. Right now I have them crossed at about 90hz and I am getting limited measured response up to about 200hz. Other than augmenting with the lowest octave and some filling in of that 90-200hz range, the subs are audibly invisible. In my room the monitors benefit greatly from the subs, giving me the most detailed and full sound I have yet to have in my listening space with any speakers. The addition of the subs helps make the soundstage even larger and deeper with no loss in the detail retrieval I hear the monitors deliver. My guess is these subs would get Louis' seal of approval even if they are not his.

Taking the Alnico Monitors on their own, they are really fantastic at imaging, detail retrieval (unbelievable here...best I have ever heard... the cliché of hearing things on familiar recordings I have never heard before takes on new meaning with these speakers)and sound stage. It is really an amazing and enlightening experience when you hear how a 6.5" driver can reproduce everything but the lowest octave. These are incredible speakers. If you don't have the money for the Alnico monitors and the subs, my recommendation would be to get just the Alnico monitors and add the subs when you can/want. Honestly, these are some of the best speakers I have ever heard anywhere regardless of price or size.

Even though I love the Alnico Monitors, proper placement and set up is absolutely critical...just like all speakers. You won't get the best performance without the optimal setup. Taken by themselves my only critique (and honestly this is very minor considering it strengths and should not be interpreted as a reason not to choose these speakers) is some voices (especially deep male voices like Leonard Cohen & Greg Brown) have a VERY slight upward tilt in voicing. This translates into a slight reduction of richness of this type of voice. I also hear it on some female vocals as well. In my room, the subs help eliminate this. My guess is that this may have something to do with not having a crossover and consequently no corresponding baffle step loss correction. This can be compensated for in a number of ways. Usually it is something as simple as room placement that works for the listener's own ears. In my case, I am using the subs and a device called the Attune. I am friends with an engineer named David Plummer http://shakerlogicaudio.com/ His website explains and offers a solution for this phenomenon. I do not want to go any more OT than this. If you have questions PM me.

In the end these Alnico Monitors are a fantastic speaker made even better with correct implementation of a good set of properly designed subwoofers. With the subs in place I do not see a need for the XRS over the monitors and the monitors can be easier to integrate with the room.

[rebbi]

Celebrat,
Terrific and very useful post. I should have my Super Alnico monitors in a few weeks and look forward to catching comparing notes!

[DBC]

Original post by Ultralight:

Curious. If one were to run an (or a pair) Omega 12" subs along with Omega Alinico (or the RS5 or RS7 for that matter) speakers, and lets say one crosses over at 80hz, is there then any reason to get the XRS or would the monitor with its faster speed then become the preferred choice as the lower frequencies are taken out?

In Ultralights original post (question) he suggests using a some type of crossover (active, passive or digital) to filter out frequencies below 80 Hz from the Monitors. In my experience this approach works a lot better in Theory than in actual Practice.

Louis has spent years perfecting the single driver with no crossover. So to insert a crossover prior to the Monitors in my actual listening experience has always done much more harm than good to music reproduction. The Alnico Monitors are designed to accept a full range signal and they sound Great. Using a crossover to filter out frequencies below 80 Hz will not make them sound better (In fact I find this sucks a lot of life out of the Music).

I've had the most seamless integration running the Monitors Full Range, using speaker level connections to the Sub and using the Sub to simply augment the Monitors Bass (overlapping the Low End of the Monitors). Using a Low Pass filter on the Monitors always seems to create a disconnect between Monitors and Sub to my ear. Allowing the Monitor & Sub to overlap is seamless to my ear.

It sounds like celebrat is doing the same? If not then perhaps celebrat can elaborate on his method?

One last comment on the Sub Crossover Setting, 80 Hz seems to be the mythical go to number. I have an HSU ULS-15 (sealed 15" Sub). It integrates seamlessly with the Alnico Monitors up to about 50 Hz. Set it at 80 Hz and the Sub starts to call attention to itself (it's too slow at the higher crossover setting to keep up). The DeepOmega 12 will not go as Low as my HSU but it is capable of playing cleanly at much higher Crossover Frequencies (well above 80 Hz) where a lot more of the music resides. So where the best Crossover Setting is for your system will depend a lot on how capable the Sub is.

[DaveC113]

Crossover for subs also depends on the sub's position and crossover slope. The number of subs makes a difference, multiple subs does change the game a bit.

High-passing Omega speakers can make for huge improvements depending on the type of music and volume level but implementing the filter is a problem and usually isn't a good trade off. Currently I am high-passing my Super 3 XRS at 50 Hz and 24 dB/oct using the amp's digital front end which in this case is very transparent. Now I can play bass heavy music at MUCH higher volume levels!

[celebrat]

Yes DBC. I am running the monitors full range and using the crossover of my subs to match up with the monitors. I would consider high passing the Monitors if it could be done with no loss of clarity and detail resolution but I am not sure that is possible.

Thanks rebbi. let me know when your new Alnico Monitors arrive. I'd love to compare notes.