[JohnR]

JLM, could you please stop trying to diminish other people's opinions. Everyone has their preferences, there is no need to keep calling them "biased", "conditioned", etc.

[PRELUDE]

I've heard great speakers of all kinds, there is more than one way to skin a cat! 

On bass, I do prefer a simple bass reflex cabinet or TL with a 15" woofer, preferably front ported. I appreciate the dynamics this type of cabinet offers that I find lacking with OB bass. For the same reason I prefer a speaker that reaches deep enough that a sub is not a requirement.

I am not saying that I agree with you or not and I am not a huge fun of OB design, but:
There is more chance to screw up a bass reflex or TL design then a OB.
OB bass does not need a sub if it is done right.
Could you please name few OB designs that you have heard and they had lack of dynamics?

[G Georgopoulos]

woofers and boxes designs are better at overall bass than other designs...

happy new year 2015! 

[Davey]

woofers and boxes designs are better at overall bass than other designs...

happy new year 2015! 

Yes, obviously.  Why is anybody even considering OB or IB designs.  I mean how silly......this is the Enclosure Circle.  I forgot. 

Carry on.

Dave.

[JohnR]

I'm curious to know how much drivers cost now relative to 30 or 50 years ago. My guess is that a brace of large-ish woofers would have been an unthinkable extravagance back then. Now, the cost is pretty reasonable. Then there's the electronics. Times change, we can do things differently if we want to.

[G Georgopoulos]

I'm curious to know how much drivers cost now relative to 30 or 50 years ago. My guess is that a brace of large-ish woofers would have been an unthinkable extravagance back then. Now, the cost is pretty reasonable. Then there's the electronics. Times change, we can do things differently if we want to.

Hi John

Expensive woofers are still expensive today!
back then we saw ads in magazines
today we've got websites
brands like vifa will always be expensive
you get what you pay for

cheers 

[dukecv]

You also can get excellent results from a pair of sealed box monitors and augment with a subwoofer. In my secondary, audio only system, I'm using a pair of sealed box monitors (ATC SCM-19) with a matching sealed box subwoofer (ATC C1), providing full frequency response in a reasonably compact footprint.  Other types of speakers need to be in the right room environment to work correctly.  Its easier to get box speakers to work reasonably well in a wider variety of rooms.

Yea definitely, I would be super happy with a pair of monitors and a sub. I have towers and a sub, so it's not to different. It currently supports me in both movies and music, so from my perspective, whatever makes one happy is the way to go.

[DaveC113]

I am not saying that I agree with you or not and I am not a huge fun of OB design, but:
There is more chance to screw up a bass reflex or TL design then a OB.
OB bass does not need a sub if it is done right.
Could you please name few OB designs that you have heard and they had lack of dynamics?

I think all OB speakers lack the slam of a good vented box or TL, just in general and especially full-range electrostats. There's some OB speakers I like... Emerald Physics, Lotus Audio (Feastrex field coil + 2 15" per side) and GR/Serenity come to mind right off the bat. But the speakers with the bass presentation I prefer have 15" woofers in a vented or TL enclosure. Besides a front loaded bass horn, but they are not exactly practical.

[JohnR]

Hm. A while back, an interstate visitor came by and sat down in front of my prototype OB system. The very first thing he said was "Nice slam". So maybe it's not what you do, but how you do it that counts...

Back on topic somewhat...

Expensive woofers are still expensive today!
back then we saw ads in magazines
today we've got websites
brands like vifa will always be expensive
you get what you pay for

I suppose it depends on how you look at it. Spending say $1500 will get you some pretty nice woofage. Between 4 and 8, 12" or 15", depending. What else can you get for that much? A pair of Senn HD800. A Burson Conductor. Half an Auralic Vega. I saw a power cable in the TP recently that retailed for nearly that much.

Of course, that's just the drivers. By the time something like that got into a retail store the price would be very high. Perhaps that's another reason why a lot of OB is DIY.

I don't know if these have or will find their way into a retail store, but they might (~180k):

[JLM]

The original question is a bit "innocent" (overly simplistic) as:

1.)  There are many genres of enclosed speakers: sealed, ported, passive radiator, pipe, transmission line, rear loaded horn, front loaded horn, omni-directional, dipole, bipole, with all sorts of hybrids and a smaller variety of open baffle designs (flat vs curved, big vs small vs even virtually no baffle, ribbon/electrostatic vs dynamic drivers). 

2.)  There's not even consensus on which type of enclosed (or open) speaker is best. 

3.)  Then there's the apples versus oranges involved in using different drivers (that are ideal for each application), making direct comparison nearly impossible.


So while we can flaunt examples of one versus another, we can only generalize.  The original question asked why enclosed speakers dominate the market, not which is better or even why one might be better than the other.  I believe the answer(s) to the original post have been given.  Off the shelf, lower cost product that fit typical western settings and lifestyles dominates, which happens to be enclosed speakers and which makes sense from a sales perspective.


And as is not uncommon this thread has taken different directions with the motives of some posters I'd question in this case since this is the enclosure circle with another circle available for open design enthusiasts. 

[dlaloum]

Heard those Kyron Audio speakers at the Audio Show in Melbourne (Australia) a couple of months back.... very impressive - right through the audio range, and they managed to do it in a Hotel room (Albeit quite a large hotel room).
They are sold as an integrated setup that includes all the EQ and amplification.... so the power requirements are a non issue - or rather they are an issue tackled by the designer and matched to the speakers.

Funny thing is though, the opposite approach could be listened to a few rooms away where Osborne was demoing his TOTL Monument "Box" speakers.
Here we have a traditional sealed box, to which you attach your choice of external amp... very much mainstream in concept.

The room was also very different  - the Kyron's were out in the middle of the room, the Osbornes were set up against a wall....

In terms of sound, the Kyron's were hugely impressive, but subjectively cool/cold - you knew right away that this was "High Fidelity" (or should that be HIGH FIDELITY).
Tracks selected, and the approach was all highly detailed, analytical, - listening is serious business.

The Osborne room on the other hand was really more a room in which beautiful music played - there was a warmth to the sound (and the Osborne's themselves...) - and you felt you could settle in for an enjoyable time with the music (and not having to critically "listen").

I will also state my own bias - in most circumstances, I strongly dislike "box" speakers. I can usually walk into a room and "hear the box" right away.
As is clear with the Osbornes, there are exceptions - and sometimes it is down to proper room setup. (A pair of Devores at the same show were also sounding very good)

The other speaker that I really liked at that same show, was the German Physiks.... another "boxless" speaker approach?

My current speakers are Gallo Ref 3.1 - something of a hybrid between sealed box and open baffle - it tends to interact with the room more like an OB than a Box, although midrange and bass are in sealed Balls....

My favourite speakers for some years have been the Quad 989 electrostatics - but WAF issues caused their replacement with the smaller (less overwhelming) Gallo's.

I think the key is room interaction - but you also need to match EQ and Amplification to the speaker. The amps that did wonders for the stats, didn't do it for the Gallo's - the Gallo's need biamping with heaps of power (400Wx2 @ 8 ohm per channel).

In terms of retail, it is easiest to sell the average Joe / Jane what they are expecting, rather than spend a lot of time educating people...
Mr/Mrs/Ms J come into a store looking for a "speaker" - they already have a mental image of what they want, and where it will fit into their home .... give them what they have in mind and you have a quick sale.
Most current retail setups don't even have anything close to a listening room - so what are the chances of flooring the customer with something really impressive?

You are down to two options - 1) customer expectations (ie: boxes) and 2) Lifestyle systems for the fashionistas ..... Gallo have managed to market into the second category due to their cute "ball" format - but I have not seen their "serious" speakers demoed properly anywhere.

bye for now

David

[kingdeezie]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this but, perception of the general public is also an issue.

Most people who are non audiophiles/non enthusiasts, when you mention the word speaker, they generally think of a boxed speaker. Its the most common speaker design, and people tend to buy things they recognize.

I'm sure there are a substantial amount of financially endowed customers, who walk into an audio store, and purchase an expensive box speaker because the recognize the general design concept. Unless he is an audiophile, I bet Warren Buffet would recognize Wilsons as speakers before a pair of Sound Labs, regardless of sound or placement concessions.

[steve f]

Yes he, Buffet, would. The difference is he would buy the company he liked.   

[walkern]

Speaking from a simplistic, former retailer point of view, it's a lot easier to stack regularly shaped boxes in the store room... assuming it's useful / necessary to actually stock new versions of what's on the sales floor.

Neil

[Russell Dawkins]

Speaking from a simplistic, former retailer point of view, it's a lot easier to stack regularly shaped boxes in the store room... assuming it's useful / necessary to actually stock new versions of what's on the sales floor.

Neil

Yes, these are real world considerations - stackability, compactness, attractive appearance and keen pricing, not to speak of appropriate hype in promotion and advertizing. The one real world need I don't see addressed often is the accommodation of the need for bookshelf or wall mounting. For many that would be an advantage, since it often is inconvenient to have to position the speaker out into the room. I am talking of a speaker, like the small Mission of 20 years ago, which has a falling bass response which is corrected by wall or bookshelf mounting.

[Gatto127]

Open Baffle speakers generate a back wave which might cancel the wave coming from the front side of the speakers, especially when the rear wall is close by. The back wave needs to be suppressed or else the rear wall needs to be a treated non reflecting surface or the speaker needs to be place in a large room.

Closed box speakers or ported enclosures are hence much more practical in spaces that we live in - especially if you live in a city.