[jsaliga]

I'm curious. Would you care to explain why you would not go with a tube drive phono preamp? Noise?

Thanks!

Sure.  I probably should have qualified that better and said that I will never use another tube phono preamp that uses tube-driven gain for low output moving coil cartridges.  Getting to 55 or 60db of gain using nothing but tubes is a bad design choice as far as I am concerned.  I have owned two phono preamps designed like that and neither of them were quiet enough for my tastes.  Tube driven MM phono stages are fine with good designs and implementations.  You can put a step up transformer in front of that and get excellent sound with a LOMC cart.

--Jerome

[JackD]

Jim

The current version of the Vista is infinitely adjustable by you, but if you want Boris to set it up initially for the Shelter then you just need to get him the specs.  If that doesn't suit you taste based on your speakers tweeter type or Preamp and Amp type the you can adjust it however you want.  For example when I got my last one for use with the Denon Dl-301, I used Den's configutation.  After a couple of hours I knew it needed to be changed because he is using an all tube integrated and I am using all SS in the Florida summer.  So I had to drop the gain and the resistance loading.  Took about five minutes and then back up and running. 

[jimdgoulding]

Thanks for the info, Jack, and I've emailed Boris .   

[JackD]

Jim

Glad to be of help.  When you get the unit in house there are several of us who can help you get to where you want to be with your set up.  I have personally used the Vista with Stanton's, Grado's and both HOMC and LOMC Denon's.  You can use the standard formula's for loading, but they may not suit your system.  Changing the loading and gain values is easy once you get use to it. 

Jack

[JackD]

Jim

There is a turntable cartridge fanatic over on AK that got in a Shelter 501 for use on his VPI Classic and his preliminary observations are that the discounted $299 AT-OC-9 MK II from LP Gear is better.  So you might want to hold up.  It seems that reputation in the LOMC circle which equals higher price does not always equal better sound.

[jimdgoulding]

Thanks for the tip.  I remember the buzz about the OC-9 and will definitely look into it.

[Maritan]

Maritan

Good to see you back.  Which way did you decide to go between the two TT's, the Kenwood or the JVC or both.  If not the JVC were you able to turn it over?
Also where did you end up cartridge wise.  Last I knew you were playing with a Signet.

Jack

Hey Jack,

I still have both TTs. While I'm done fiddling with Kenwood for the near future, I figured I'd keep the JVC for my girlfriend since it's easy to operate being a fully automatic TT.

Well, since I set it up as part of my HT setup, she hasn't used it once and it's been collecting dust. At this point, I think I'm going to move it once I talk to her.

I have a Denon DL-110 on the Kenwood right now. Honestly, it's probably not even broken I yet. Life's happened and I don't get much time to sit down now. I'm hoping that will change in a couple months.

Thanks for asking!

[Maritan]

Sure.  I probably should have qualified that better and said that I will never use another tube phono preamp that uses tube-driven gain for low output moving coil cartridges.  Getting to 55 or 60db of gain using nothing but tubes is a bad design choice as far as I am concerned.  I have owned two phono preamps designed like that and neither of them were quiet enough for my tastes.  Tube driven MM phono stages are fine with good designs and implementations.  You can put a step up transformer in front of that and get excellent sound with a LOMC cart.

--Jerome

Jerome,

Thanks for explaining that. As I guessed, it is noise, but especially so for LOMCs it sounds like.

[JackD]

Maritan

I have a DL-110 here too.  I have found that with tubes in front it sounds fine at about 16k loading, but with SS it needs to be loaded down to 10k or below.  It needs about 50hrs before the bottom end fills in. It is a genuine bargain of a cartridge.

Jack

[neobop]

snip-
Later sold this combo and used the excellent phono stage in the Music Reference RM-5 preamp.  For the convenience of remote, I foolishly sold the MR and bought a Kora Eclipse preamp with to no thought of the phono stage.  A couple of years ago when I bought the first of my vintage JVC DD's, I found out that the phono stage in the Kora was just an after thought and pretty bad.  In sucession upon that discovery I tried the TCC, the ART, V-LPS and Cambridge.  In the end I had my Holman completely re-capped and restored to original factory specs,  rather than modded like Vince at Audioproz does.  Once I got it back I discovered that it bettered all of the previously listed phono stages.  I didn't start looking again until I decided I wanted to try LOMC for the first time.  I was prepared to order the Phonomena II until I read Den's description of all the stages he had tried iincluding all of the reviewers faves.  Decided to give the Vista a try and have not been disappointed.  The gain adjustments are great and the loading settings are subject to whatever you want to order and try. Have already had to adjust some when I switched from the winter tube amps to the Florida summer Odyssey SS amp.
Jack

Hi Jack,
Referring to the Apt Holman you said, "Once I got it back I discovered that it bettered all of the previously listed phono stages."   
Does this include the RM-5?  Different system?  Just curious.

I think many older audiophiles (those who lived in the heyday) have a similar history with a variety of equipment.  For awhile I was enamored with a used Vendetta preamp.  This was a full function preamp that contained John Curl's phono stage.  I was told this was the same stage as his separate unit that is legendary.  It was very good and extremely listenable, but after hearing it with a few different carts and setups, I realized the American Hybrid Technology left it in the dust.  The Vendetta sounded like an NAD compared to the AHT which is so much quieter, faster and cleaner it's like night and day.  The AHT is neutral and transparent, more detailed but less forgiving.  I could have had either one.  At that time I had no horse in the race, no vested interest so I went with the better unit.  That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. 

I really don't care what anyone says about transistors, tubes or ICs.  It's all prejudice and bullshit.  Only a couple of guys out of a hundred even know what they're talking about and that includes designers.  Most of them have specialized skills and aren't qualified outside of their area of expertise.  Dan Fanny, AHT designer was a tube god (sound familiar?) who designed the best amps I ever heard, including high voltage direct drive (no output transformer) amps for electrostatics.   He used to modify ARC, Levinson, CJ etc and people loved it.  He said that for this application (phono stage) tubes and transistors were at a severe disadvantage.  All the crappy parts, wire, solder connections, and distance between components are such a handicap they can't compete.  That is, if an IC designer knows what he's doing.  I know it's not what everyone wants.  Many people are looking for euphonic and/or forgiving or certain colorations they like.  Nothing wrong with that, to each his own. 

Unfortunately, most IC designs are poorly executed and that's why all those budget designs are ones to upgrade from.  I can tell from the descriptions that Vista is the only inexpensive stage that has the potential to satisfy me as a second phono. 
neo     

[JackD]

Neo

There was like a five year gap between so I am just going from memory.  When I put the Holman away the first time I was using the B & O, Hafler DH-500 and Snell Type A/II's.  By the time I got the RM-5 I was using the RM-10 amp and the Reynaud Offrande's with the Planar 3, so a completely different system voice wise.  Will say that the phono section in the RM-5 was dead quiet for a tube phono as is all of Roger's gear.  Most non-tubey tube gear I have ever experienced.  Unfortunately I kept the amp and sold the preamp.  Whether it or the APT is better would be personal preference, though the Holman is certainly more flexible.  Just had the Holman re-done in the fall. Save the MR's the Holman to me is better than all of the lower price stuff I have had in the system.  If I find another of Roger's preamps for sale a fair price will certainly buy another.

Jack

[TheChairGuy]

Jack,

Bought an APT-Holman from AudioProz as well......had to sell it inside of 60 days it sounded so horrid.  Never considered that it could have been Vince's upgrades themselves that did it - I've long since blamed the APT for being garbage. Which never sat right with me as Mr. Holman's designs have been near universally regarded as phono masterpieces for their price range.

Considering I have Mr. Holman's earlier Advent 300 receiver used exclusively as a preamp/phono pre (and it's stellar) I always thought it odd that I detested the APT-Holman successor so much.  Could be that Vince screwed it royally in 'upgrading' it.

EDIT: I haven't heard the Advent 300 as stock, I bought it modded by Sound of the Wood: http://www.soundofthewood.com/

I, too, would consider the Vista Phono 1 Mk. II if I was in need of another phono stage.

[WireNut]

I own the Vista but have wondered how the Hagerman Bugle1 or Bugle2 using a wall wart would stack up against the Vista. Any thoughts on that 

[JackD]

TheChairGuy

The AK member who recapped my APT was the Service Manager at a large repair facility in Boston and Vince was one of his employees before he went to work at Holman.  Vince was apparently there to the end, even after Holman sold the company and moved on.  The unit itself was even changed some during that ownership and Vince just continued to change it more.   Dave has worked on dozens of the Holman's and has seen Vince's upgrade/mod's.  He says that if you allow Vince to do anything above his level one service, then he modifies the unit to what he thinks it ought to have sounded like which was not what Holman intended.   He even knew the part's and circuits  Vince changed. 

Jack

[neobop]

I own the Vista but have wondered how the Hagerman Bugle1 or Bugle2 using a wall wart would stack up against the Vista. Any thoughts on that 

Interesting idea, the grass might be greener?  The Bugle 2 was just released, but I think you might have trouble finding a direct comparison even with the Bugle 1.  That one is said to best all the $200 ones like V-LPS, Cambridge, NAD etc, but that doesn't shed much light on the question.
You can choose 40, 50, or 60dB gain with Bugle.  In order to change it, you'd have to start re-soldering resistors.  I believe load is also fixed. 
Beside the inflexibility I think the circuit design might be poorly chosen.  There are three stages, and probably too many parts.  S/N is only 64dB - A weighted.  I don't know what S/N is on Vista, but I suspect it's higher. 

S/N spec doesn't tell you everything about the piece, but it's important, not just to be above the noise floor of a record, but reflects the transparency of the amplification IMO. Things like transient response and square wave integrity are interrelated with S/N. 

This is my conclusion having heard neither piece.   
neo