[Alwayswantmore]

Hi, I'm interesting adding a sub to my Omega Compact Hemps (with the latest driver), driven by Red Wine Audio Signature. I'm in a small room, and from everything I've read on this Circle, the Force XL looks like an excellent choice. I also own AKG K1000 ear speakers, and would probably use the sub with these as well. The only sub I've owned was the Vandersteen 2W. I liked the 2W, but for its lack of variable frequency and phase controls (plus the mandate for a crossover), the Force looks like a better fit.

The Hemps are single driver, very effecient, and very fast. So they need a fast sub to keep up. They sound great, but I miss hearing the low stuff, especially for live recordings.

Here are my questions:

1. My floor is concrete with carpet. Do I want or need spikes?

2. The Signature 30 is tri-path, which probably mandates the RCA inputs on the Force (Sig 30 has an extra set of variable RCA outs, so that part is easy). Regarding RCA interconnects:

A. Do you lose much in SQ with a longer run -- say up to 9 or 12 feet?
B. Are there any "budget priced" cables, that would be a good value for connecting the sub? [Maybe $100 - $200 pair max?]

Thanks, Kent

[Mike Dzurko]

Kent:

You've done your homework and you are right, the Force XL will be a great for your needs. With carpet on concrete I recommend our brass points . . .  they can be ordered with the sub, and the sub bottom plate is pre-tapped.

For interconnect, your length is not a problem at all, I've run three times that length without problems. I highly recommend the DH Labs Subsonic cable . . .  again, that can be ordered with the sub and is very affordable and excellent quality.

[Zero]

Alwayswantmore - looks like you are piecing together one EXCELLENT small system.

[Alwayswantmore]

Mike - Thanks for the response. I found the cable on your web site, and it fits right into my target budget.

A6M-ZERO - thanks. I sold off more expensive balanced gear and I'm using the funds to rebuild my system. So far the new stuff is much more musical, and a much better value than than what it replaced.

Kent

[krikor]

FWIW ... The only other sub I've owned is the Vandersteen 2wq as well.  One reason I chose that sub was because of its 3x8" driver design making it a "fast" sub that could properly integrate with my Magnepans.  The fixed crossover required to be inserted between amp/preamp I found to be problematic, but I did like the adjustable "Q".

I now have the ACI Force and I have never regretted the change (mine are the older model, but I believe they are identical except for the cosmetics).  In addition to being much easier to live with in terms of size, they also offer much more in the way of adjustability to blend with your mains.  In fact, I was very surprised by how much the phase adjustment can impact the sound with the continuously variable settings between 0 and 180 degrees (rather than just the one or other found on many other subs).  The dual crossover filters are also great as they allow you to adjust the rolloff curve.

[Ryan45872]

FWIW ... The only other sub I've owned is the Vandersteen 2wq as well.  One reason I chose that sub was because of its 3x8" driver design making it a "fast" sub that could properly integrate with my Magnepans.  The fixed crossover required to be inserted between amp/preamp I found to be problematic, but I did like the adjustable "Q".

I now have the ACI Force and I have never regretted the change (mine are the older model, but I believe they are identical except for the cosmetics).  In addition to being much easier to live with in terms of size, they also offer much more in the way of adjustability to blend with your mains.  In fact, I was very surprised by how much the phase adjustment can impact the sound with the continuously variable settings between 0 and 180 degrees (rather than just the one or other found on many other subs).  The dual crossover filters are also great as they allow you to adjust the rolloff curve.

Hi

How do you like the Force compared to the Vandersteen as far as SQ ,and output?

Which was easier to set up?

Thanks
Ryan

[Alwayswantmore]

FWIW ... The only other sub I've owned is the Vandersteen 2wq as well.  One reason I chose that sub was because of its 3x8" driver design making it a "fast" sub that could properly integrate with my Magnepans.  The fixed crossover required to be inserted between amp/preamp I found to be problematic, but I did like the adjustable "Q".

I now have the ACI Force and I have never regretted the change (mine are the older model, but I believe they are identical except for the cosmetics).  In addition to being much easier to live with in terms of size, they also offer much more in the way of adjustability to blend with your mains.  In fact, I was very surprised by how much the phase adjustment can impact the sound with the continuously variable settings between 0 and 180 degrees (rather than just the one or other found on many other subs).  The dual crossover filters are also great as they allow you to adjust the rolloff curve.

krikor, nice to hear your comments. I sold the Vandersteen because my system had gotten to the point I could hear some degradation using the crossover (this comment refers to the in-line RCA crossover, not the pricier adjustable-balanced model. But my new amp (Sig 30) needs RCAs. That plus I would love to use the sub with my K1000 ear speakers (headphones), and the fixed 6db per octave rolloff, and lack of adjustments for phase and frequency made it impossible to get seamless integration (with the headphones). On the otherhand, the 2W did a credible job with my monitor speakers.

Now with the Hemps I'm getting way better sound than my old monitors (classic Acoustic Energy AE1s), but I miss that last octave or two for even acoustic bass and piano. The sub also makes a big difference with live recordings, in that you get a much better 'feel' for the hall when you hear the low stuff.

BTW: I used to sell early version of Magnapans, and even their now extinct big brother, the Magnaplaners (distributed by Audio Research). In fact I used to own a pair of T1B Magnaplaners when I was in college. [Oh I miss the days of sales rep accomodation pricing ]

[krikor]

How do you like the Force compared to the Vandersteen as far as SQ ,and output?

Which was easier to set up?

Thanks
Ryan

Unfortunately, I was never able to listen to the Vandersteen 2wq and Force back-to-back since I had to sell the Vandersteen before I purchased the Force subs.  That said, I've never found the Force subs lacking in any way compared to what I remember of the 2wq, both in terms of sound quality and output.  If I was forced to make a judgement, I would say that the Vandersteen was somewhat more musical and never called attention to itself, as you would expect from a good sub, blending quite well with the Maggies (though I did have concerns about the passive crossover's effect on the top-end as explained below).  The dual Force subs also perform a great dissapearring act when properly set up, with greater control over the crossover slope for blending with your mains.  The Force subs also seem to do a better job at the lowest registers and can really energize the room when required.

Both are great subs and the differences as I remember them are not huge.  They may have more to do with the individual settings I used for each sub, especially since I preferred a relatively low "Q" on the Vandersteen as I don't like my bass boomy or bloated... quick, taut and deep is what I'm striving to achieve.

As for ease of setup ... well, you've got to balance that with flexibility.  Because of the more extensive controls and multiple hookup options on the Force, it can be a bit more complicated because you have more things you can play with and worry whether or not you've got them set just right.  I'm also using stereo Force subs which makes it that much more complex.  Personally, I prefer the ability to precisely dial-in the Force subs with their dual 2nd order crossovers that can be set down to 35hz with a steep roll-off to keep them from mucking up the Maggie's midrange, as well as the continuously variable phase. 

The Vandersteen is easy to set up because it only has a level and "Q" adjustment ... no crossover or phase adjustments.  BUT, you must insert a 1st order passive high-pass crossover between your preamp and amp to roll-off the bass at 80hz (something I can't do with my current integrated amp).  The sub's amp is equalized to compensate for this roll-off, so there are no other alternatives than the 80hz 6db/oct crossover point.  To maximize the performance of this passive crossover, I also ended up building my own with InfiniCaps.  The premium battery-biased crossovers from the Vandersteen Model 5 can also be used, with an improvement in sound quality, but at considerable added cost.  You could also use an active crossover for this, but that is yet another component in the chain.

With the Force subs, I now run my Maggies full-range so there is no line-level crossover degrading their top-end sound ... and yes, I did hear a difference with the caps inline (I even tried different caps to alter the sound).  Also, I'm using the Force subs for LFE as part of a multi-channel system.  The "Theater" input allows me to connect them to both my dedicated 2-channel system and the .1 channel from my surround processor.  I could not do this with the Vandersteen.

[Alwayswantmore]

Wish me luck. Today I ordered a Force XL. I'm anxious to see how it performs in my system. I will say that to-date I've been very pleased with the vendors I've dealt with on AudioCircle (Redwine Audio, Omega, and Hudson Audio -- which is distributed by Omega). So hopefully I can go four for four.