[TSB]

I currently have a Denon 395 with the Denon 280 CD player I'm planning on upgrading and have a few questions I couldn't find answers for....I will be using the amp to drive my Paradigm Studio 40's V 3.

My budget is $1500, and with this I'm going to want to get a new CD player and tuner (tuner would be at a later date) to pair up with the new amp.  If I was to with the Rotel I'd probably get their 1072 CD player.

1.  Is the Rotel 1062 enough of an improvement to spend $700 on, or should I up my budget a little further and get something that might keep me happy longer?

2.  How does the Rotel compare to the Creek A50IR? 

3.  Now a general question....my Denon is 80 wpc, and the integrated amps I'm looking at both put out a lot less wattage but from what I can gather the more important thing is the
amperage output......Why is this?

Thanks....Tom

[Spirit]

Hey Tom:
I have a Creek A50IR.  I use it in my office and it is a great amp.
I have been thinking of selling it so I can raise some money to upgrade my
Home Theater.
If you are interested send me a Prive message
Thanks
Sam

[Bob Reynolds]

I have a general comment about integrated amps. If you ever hope to add a subwoofer to your system, the task will be much more likely to succeed with an integrated that has *BOTH* preamp out and main amp in jacks. That way you can insert an external bass management controller between the preamp and the amp.

Integrateds that provide this feature are: NAD, Bryston, Creek, Rega (see Jim Austin's comments in the recent Stereophile about the Rega Mira) and Marantz (I think their $500 integrated has both).

With a $1500 budget, I'd look at the Creek 5350SE, Rega Mira or NAD C372 and continue to use the Denon CD player until you can afford to replace it with a player matching the integrated amp. The Bryston B100 is probably over your budget, but would be my first choice.

For the about the same budget (I think), you could get a pair of B&K Components separates: Reference 5 S2 preamp and tuner, Reference 125.2 S2 stereo amplifier. You could do far worse. http://www.bkcomp.com/products.asp

I'll take a swing at answering your general question... Amplifiers have a specification called gain that represents by how much the input voltage is increased to produce the output voltage. The amplifier is designed to act as a constant voltage source, so as the load (speaker) resistance varies, the current varies according to Ohm's Law: Voltage = Current x Resistance.

The resistance of a speaker is not fixed, but actually varies with frequency. As its resistance drops, the amount of current drawn from the amplifier increases (because the voltage across the speaker stays the same). For various reasons (power supply too small, output devices too small, etc.), an amplifier may not be able to source enough current to satisfy the demands of the speaker. One way to get a rough estimate of the current capability of an amplifier is its weight.

BTW, the Paradigm Reference Studio 40s are very good speakers. I don't know if your Denon receiver provides access to the preamp and amp sections, but adding a Paradigm Seismic 10 or 12 subwoofer with an external crossover will give you much more of an improvement than changing electronics.

Best of luck,
Bob

[TSB]

Bob,

Thanks for all the info you provided...

This is an example of my confusion, these units are within about $100 of each other.

Creek Evo - 85 watts with >10 amp output

Creek A50IR - 50 watts with > 18 amp output

So do you go with the higher watt model or the higher amperage in a case like this?

[JLM]

Welcome TSB,

1. Rotel as a brand is at the threshold of high end audio, but in those terms its a plow horse not a thoroughbred.  My Rotel receiver is well built, seems to test out well, but doesn't compare sonically to "real" high end audio amps.  So personally I've never been drawn to their CDPs as they seem to be of ordinary construction for their price points.

Have you considered the audio/PC trend?  Rip your music to a hard drive and playback via a converter.  The needed software for ripping, organizing, and no-loss compression are available for free online.  100 CDs requires 40 GB of storage.  Lots of options.  One of the most popular and elegant is Squeeze Box.  It includes digital domain volume, full function remote, internet audio streaming, is wireless, and cost $300.  Addition units can provide access to the same ripped library/audio streaming via your LAN.  Check out Boulder Cable Circle below where Wayne mods Squeeze Boxes to provide very high quality sound.

If you're not so computer literate and/or don't want to have to rip every CD in order to hear them look at Olive.  Starting at $900 retail they offer all the above features but add a CDP, iPod connectivity, etc. but don't require a PC as they are a dedicated audio computer with laptop hard drives (no noisy fans).  They can also be modded.  The current downside with Olives is their small display, but reportedly the company is working on it.

If none of this suits your fancy, I'd re-examine your price range.  CDP's are becoming scarce at that price range due to the popularity of universal players and the audio/PC stuff mentioned above.  With relatively low sales numbers CDP's are almost becoming dinosaurs, most being available in the $1000-2000 range.  If you're not ready for audio/PC or even Olive I'd look for a good used unit on Audiogon.  For instance a $2000 Rega Jupiter was recently listed for $700.  Another set of options would be factory approved mods of CDPs like Upscale Audio's Njoe Tjoeb 4000 or Underwood Wally's Music Hall 25.2 (both run about $800).  Any of these alternatives would be a huge sonic step up from a typical $500 CDP.

You can also look for universal players that can be modded.  The $150 Oppo 970 is supposed to be great for the money and you can spend ~$800 in mods on it.  Another good option would be a Denon CDP.  Underwood wally offers various mods on various models.

2. Don't know how Rotel/Creek compare. 

3. Here's my simple automotive analogy: voltage is horsepower, amperage is torque.  As Bob mentioned low impedance (heavier) loads need more amps (torque).  Simple specificiations don't tell the whole story.  Many vendors only measure using a simple 1000 Hz sine wave to derive wattage and distortion figures.  How an amp handles a reactive speaker load and being over driven is far more important from a voltage/amperage perspective.  40+ years ago when THD, IM, and other distortion measuring methods were developed solid state was just being invented, so distortion rates of 1% or more in electronics were common.  But nowadays any half way decent amp has rates that are so low that those methods no longer correlate to what we hear.  Audiophiles normally ignore these figures.

Keep in mind too that the relationship between watts and decibels (the sound pressure level we hear) is logarithmic, meaning that it takes 10 times the watts to sound twice as loud.  So don't get hung up on 50 wpc vs. 80 wpc (would sound less than half again louder).  OTOH to sound best an amp needs sufficient muscle to have a commanding grip on the speaker, but that gets back to hw well the amp handles reactive loads and being over driven. 

Also note that most folks have no idea how loud they listen or at what frequencies.  I recommend calibrating your ear by using (it won't take long at all) sound pressure meter and test tones.  Most audiophiles I know listen at less than 80 dB (much lower than they think) and don't reproduce anywhere near the amount deep bass in their homes that they think they do.

No general audiophile amp discussion should skip over the tube vs. solid state "debate".  Tubes distort more, but on the even harmonics that are friendlier to the ear and they handle over loadings more gracefully.  However many tube power amp designs have very low damping factors meaning that bass sounds bloated, muddy, and slow.

Amp recommendations: check out the AV123 circle for the $1000 Onix SP-3 tube amp, NuForce (see circle below) $1200 IA-7 integrated digital amp would both be excellent choices.  Unison Unico P (50 wpc, $1200 new) or the original (80 wpc, ~$900 used) hybrid amps (tube pre-amp section and solid state power amp section, which is a typical audiophile recommended coupling) would be very good too (and can be modded).  A Scott Nixon 40 wpc chip amp for ~$900 would be a different but viable option.  I'm sure you can get dozens of amp recommendations from around here.

[PhilNYC]

The NY Audio Rave recently got to hear a Dussun DS99 integrated amp...100wpc, retail price $500...and many folks felt it performed far above its price range.  Definitely one to consider:

http://www.aaa-audio.com/index-products-dussun.htm

[lcrim]

I have never heard this unit but the Dussun DS-99 SS integrated is getting very favorable buzz even from people on this forum whose ears are trustworthy.   Here's an online review http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/dussun_ds99.htm
Sound quality esp. for SS is said to be high and @ 100 watts per, it has the grunt for more difficult speaker loads.  
I am interested because I still have a pair of Sonus Faber Concertino Homes over at my girl friend's which are an easy load but @ $500 the Dussun might be the way to go.  I am primarily oriented towards tubes but she isn't into that stuff, if it had a remote she would be happier but the player has a remote.  Low maintenance is a good thing.
Just saw Phil said the same thing.

[fredgarvin]

Another option to look at is the Onix A-120 mkII at www.av123.com it outputs 120 watts per channel into 8 ohms and is a dual mono design. Also higher current than the two amps you mentioned. I used to own one and would recommend it highly. $700. Lively sound, above its price-point.

[Bob Reynolds]

Bob,

Thanks for all the info you provided...

This is an example of my confusion, these units are within about $100 of each other.

Creek Evo - 85 watts with >10 amp output

Creek A50IR - 50 watts with > 18 amp output

So do you go with the higher watt model or the higher amperage in a case like this?

Hi Tom,

That's a good example alright. Looking closer at the specs from the Creek web site can give a little more insight. The Evo will produce 150 watts into 4 ohms almost doubling its 8 ohm power spec. That is a good indication of a very capable power supply. The A50IR on the other hand will produce 60 watts into 4 ohms which is not much of an increase. Computing the current into an 4 ohm load using the power listed earlier gives: Evo - 6 amps, A50IR - 3.8 amps. The Evo uses a 250VA transformer which seems too little to produce the 150 watt spec. Also, note that the Evo weighs almost 6 pounds more than the A50IR. So despite the current ratings (maybe a typo?), I'd say the Evo is obviously the more powerful amplifier. So why only a $100 price difference between the two products? It looks like one is over priced.

-- Bob

[jackthecat]

Welcome TSB,



Amp recommendations: check out the AV123 circle for the $1000 Onix SP-3 tube amp, NuForce (see circle below) $1200 IA-7 integrated digital amp would both be excellent choices.  Unison Unico P (50 wpc, $1200 new) or the original (80 wpc, ~$900 used) hybrid amps (tube pre-amp section and solid state power amp section, which is a typical audiophile recommended coupling) would be very good too (and can be modded).  A Scott Nixon 40 wpc chip amp for ~$900 would be a different but viable option.  I'm sure you can get dozens of amp recommendations from around here.

Interesting options here!
I have just bought an Unison Unico SE (140wpc) from audiogon...wanting to upgrade my system. Looking forward to trying it out in a week or two.