[Beezer]

Bill at Response Audio (circle here) sells modified Usher bookshelf speakers that fit the sound profile you're described. I had a chance to listen to them recently at his shop in Binghamton and preferred them to his Bella speakers, albeit with different electronics and acoustics.  They look really nice also, and I'm pretty sure they're quite a bit more efficient than the Salk speakers...

Beez

[Bob Reynolds]

Bob, for those of us with an integrated with no pre outs, I suppose we are stuck with parallel connections to a sub (off the speaker posts). Could you please elaborate--what have you found to be the better approach for connecting a sub that dramatically improves the integration? Using a second pre out from a preamp? I have actually gotten pretty good results by driving my sub in parallel off the speakers posts of my integrated, but haven't had the luxury of using a pre-out. REL generally has recommended this speaker post connection, but they are probably unusual in that respect.

Hi Rob,

Unfortunately, even having preamp outs on an integrated still forces you to wire the subwoofer parallel to the main speakers (it's a line level connection versus a speaker level). What's needed in an integrated is *both* preamp output and main amp input. I'm sure there are others, but the only integrateds I can name that have this feature are: NAD (every model I think), Bryston B-100 and Creek 5350.

Why is this so important? Adding a subwoofer provides the potential to accomplish several things: 1) biamp the system (assuming an active sub), which takes the bass load off the main amplifier(s), 2) high-passing the main speakers, which takes the bass load off them and 3) get the bass located correctly in the room away from the midrange and treble, typically in a corner.

The component that makes all this work so well is a bass management controller (specialized external crossover). The pro audio folks have been doing this for quite a while and we can thank home theater (and to a less extent multi-channel audio) for bringing bass management into the mainstream. You can read Ken Kreisel's comments on the subject here:

http://www.mkprofessional.com/bass_mgmt.htm

Another advantage of a bass management controller is that (on some models) you can adjust the level to each channel. Thus, you can balance the levels to all speakers. Unless you have a perfect listening room, it's unlikely that you get the same SPL at the listening position from each speaker. This is critical for imaging and soundstaging.

Richard Vandersteen also uses speaker level connections to his subwoofers (an amazing value by the way), but the big difference compared to REL is that he inserts a high-pass filter to the main speakers.

Hope this sheds a little light on the matter,

Bob

[Robert57]

Bob, thanks for your helpful elaboration on sub integration. In short, I think you are saying that having a high pass filter for the main speakers, rather than running them full range, has important advantages in cleaning up main woofer distortion and getting better frequency control across the full spectrum. Do you know of a reasonably compact (and affordable) stereo crossover/ bass management box that one could use with an integrated (that has only a speaker out) to do this sub integrated job well? The Marchand boxes are big and not very friendly for a secondary system like an office or bedroom. I read somewhere that Dusty at Channel Islands might be working on some such crossover box--which would be very interesting!

Thanks again for your help, Bob. I apologize if this was a detour from the main discussion, but I also love having a sub, even for a secondary system.

Rob

[ricmon]

Give the Lipinski L-505's a try.  I have the L-707 simply amazing.  The only thing that comes close cost a lot more.  Beware you may stop listening to you VMPS speakers.

[rblnr]

I'm interested in the Lipinskis, but would have to wallmount them and array them horizontally -- don't know if this would kill the sound.

Great TT isolation idea, btw!

[ricmon]

I'm interested in the Lipinskis, but would have to wallmount them and array them horizontally -- don't know if this would kill the sound.

/quote]

Are you planning on wall mounting what ever speaker you choose or do you think the Lipinski's shape dictate that you wall mount them.  Also what’s up with the array thing (if this info is not in a previous post?

[rblnr]

Anything will be wall mounted, but I should be able to do it at least a couple of feet of the side and rear wall.  Have little ones that would know stands right over, besides, need them up and out of the way a bit in the living room where they'll reside.  Am ceding to reality here.

It's the 20+ inch height of the Lipinskis that suggests I might have to go horizontally w/them.

[Bob Reynolds]

Do you know of a reasonably compact (and affordable) stereo crossover/ bass management box that one could use with an integrated (that has only a speaker out) to do this sub integrated job well?

I don't know of any that operate on speaker level signals. You lose the biamping advantage that way. In general, I'd think it would almost be impossible to build one that worked on speaker level signals and that would work with any speaker (speakers being reactive loads).

The passive high-pass filter that Vandersteen uses is determined by the input impedance of your amplifier. I don't know if active filters are immune to source and load impedances.

[Bob Reynolds]

Anything will be wall mounted, but I should be able to do it at least a couple of feet of the side and rear wall.  Have little ones that would know stands right over, besides, need them up and out of the way a bit in the living room where they'll reside.  Am ceding to reality here.

It's the 20+ inch height of the Lipinskis that suggests I might have to go horizontally w/them.

I may very well be wrong, but it seems that you'd cripple the Lipinski's by mounting them on a wall. In fact, that's probably true for any speaker not specifically designed for wall mounting.

The Sound Anchor studio adjustable stands that I have weigh almost 60 pounds each. With the M&K reference monitor on it the weight should be over 80 pounds. The things are built like a tank. I would still be nervious having a "tall" speaker on a stand -- center of gravity and all.

[rblnr]

FYI, by wall mount, I don't mean directly on the wall, but on a bracket or custom shelf I'll build that would move the speakers out a couple of feet from the wall.  Right now, I have some speaker suspended by cables from the ceiling, a couple of feet off the side and rear walls.

Such is the nature of marriage and kids.

[rblnr]

Anybody have some Salk Veracity HT1s I could listen to in the NY/NJ area?  Thanks.