On system philosphy and the CS2's

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Mag

Re: On system philosphy and the CS2's
« Reply #120 on: 22 Jan 2008, 04:09 pm »
Being that I'm sick at home with the Flu, going on 9 days I have time to evaluate some classical music. I should be working, but my taxi is in the shop, couldn't get it to start, and I wasn't the last to drive it. I presume getting a new engine as it should have been fixed yesterday, if it was something minor. If it's not in the shop, then I am out of a job. Will find out today what's going on.
Digging through my discard pile of cd's I found Beethoven's 5th. I use to play this on the way to work.
Not knowing how Hi-Fi classical is suppose to sound I sat in my recliner with my eyes closed. All I can say is that it sounds as if the music is coming from a stage in front of me. It pans left or right at times depending where the instrument is on stage. The soundstage is wide, just like being there.
I've been to a live symphony once that I recall, at a local church, that has a built in pipe organ, where they played Beethoven's 7th.
I find stringed symphony boring.
Another classical piece, if it's considered classical is the original Ecstasy of Gold- by Morricone. It is absolutely fantastic sounding. If that is not Hi-Fi then I don't know what would qualify as Hi-Fi on my stereo.

Mag

Re: On system philosphy and the CS2's
« Reply #121 on: 22 Jan 2008, 05:04 pm »
Good news, I still have a job! The timing chain was gone. Had to wait for parts from Edmonton. So I should be back on the road tomorrow morning.
Time for some more tunes :)

Mag

Re: On system philosphy and the CS2's
« Reply #122 on: 26 Jan 2008, 10:13 pm »
Hey Daygloworange.
Did you have a chance to playtest my multi-speaker stereo arrangement?
I'm sure when you do, you'll agree that it is Superior to just two speaker stereo.
Unfortunately many other audiophiles may not be able to implement this setup due to cost constraints or room limitations. But I believe that you have the resources to check it out.
Now I don't expect royalty payments for the discovery of this proper stereo playback. I 'm just happy to have other like minded audiophiles enjoying their music to the fullest. However I should receive the credit for the idea. So I propose that when audiophiles discuss this method, they should refer to it as ME or Mag Effect, short for Magnificent Effect.
I would be grateful having it named after me.

Thanx

pbrstreetgang

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Re: On system philosphy and the CS2's
« Reply #123 on: 27 Jan 2008, 12:07 am »
What processing do you propose to do this with? Are we talking about just y cording the *gasp* stereo output of the source? If it wasnt recorded in 5.1, 7.1, quad then your just crapshooting.

To be fair I have heard systems that sounded good in unusual placement positions, Ill try to illistrate them

1. Was a magnepan dealers 1.6s faceing each other about 4 feet apart in a long narrow room. Speakers were placed nearer the short wall. Sound was diffuse, musical with a decent but not sharp sound stage and was deficient on depth of field. Excelled in classical but showed flaws on studio recordings- Vague but musical.

2. A LCR setup with Identical speakers. The LR were farther apart than they would be in a stereo setup but similar toe in. The C was set back and sent a summed signal. The system was tweaked in level to create a coherent and believable performance. But the only thing it had on  the same speakers in a stereo setup was subjectively the scale of the soundstage.

3. 5 same floorstanders arranged in a V. This was early in my audiophiledom so the details arent as clear. From what I remember the wide closest speakers were set out of phase the "stereo pair" was set up like the above scenerio and the C was similar also. This did create a huge soundstage with solid organic center image that you could walk around- But Arts CLS 9s create a bigger performance in terms of scale, center image and ghostlike realism- its of course Stereo.

Daygloworange

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Re: On system philosphy and the CS2's
« Reply #124 on: 27 Jan 2008, 12:43 am »
Hey Daygloworange.
Did you have a chance to playtest my multi-speaker stereo arrangement?

No. I've played with quadraphonic stuff years ago. I might do it again for fun one day. Right now I'm busy playing around with a new drum kit I just got for my studio   :P


Quote
Now I don't expect royalty payments for the discovery of this proper stereo playback.  However I should receive the credit for the idea. So I propose that when audiophiles discuss this method, they should refer to it as ME or Mag Effect, short for Magnificent Effect.
I would be grateful having it named after me.

What have you discovered or invented???  Could you explain your product, or technology?  :scratch:

I don't think that you and I would ever be able to agree on anything that has to do with sound reproduction.

Here are a few quotes from you that I totally am 180 deg. apart from you on, or are just plain wrong.

Quote
You shouldn't strive to recreate the recorded venue.

Quote
Where the instruments are, is not that important

Quote
The majority of the direct sound is hitting our ears from the side.
Having multiple speakers using stereo.


You also always seems to talk about live events in bars, and bar bands. Neither of these are of interest to me to recreate sonically.

Cheers


dwk

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Re: On system philosphy and the CS2's
« Reply #125 on: 29 Jan 2008, 03:51 am »

I don't have time to write the longer reply I've been wanting to, but having spent a bit of time doing some background research and listening to the RACE implementation of ambio in my main system, there may be some useful content.

First, it seems that it would be useful to come to some degree of common agreement (as far as that's possible in audio) on the basic mechanisms of the ear and how we localize. This summary seems to be about the best I've found. It's not 'original work', but it seems to agree in all important points with other sources I've found

http://www.aip.org/pt/nov99/locsound.html


The important points seem to be
- ITD (really IPD since it's phase rather than time that is sensed) and ILD are both important localization mechanisms
- ITD is dominant up to ~1kHz or so, ILD is effective at basically all frequencies, but is dominant from 3k on up
- ITD is rather delicate, and can be disrupted by reflections; ILD is relatively stable

With this context and (hopefully) a basic understanding of both Blumlein and XTC, we can deduce the 'obvious' observations
- conventional stereo works because as Blumlein showed it can capture/reproduce the ITD effects within the important frequency range. This isn't quite perfect - a 60-degree speaker geometry can only reproduce it up to about 750Hz and it probably doesn't capture the leading edge exactly, but it's quite good, particularly in properly mic'd recordings
- the observation in the article that ITD is sensitive to reflections/ambient is consistent with the basic experience that stereo works best in large well treated spaces, as these effects are well controlled.
- Blumlein doesn't capture ILD particularly well, although it does to a degree. The presence of crosstalk will definately confuse this cue. In a 'good' stereo implementation this is benign, as the ear will ignore marginal or inconsistent cues if it has effective dominant cues due to ITD.
- comb filtering will be a problem in higher frequencies with conventional stereo, and in general is so highly dependent on the physical geometry that it's not exactly predictable.
- XTC can be extremely effective in preserving the ILD at most frequencies. This is very important in the 3k+ range, and (some degree of inference here) doesn't seem to hurt in other frequencies.
- [speculation] XTC *may* not preserve the ITD cues properly. By cancelling the crosstalk component, it will definately reduce the establishment of the phase difference. However, cancellation is only partial so some phase difference will still remain, plus it will additionally create an ILD. Now, in 'natural' soundfields the ILD is generally not present at these frequencies, but as headphone listening shows it can still be an effective cue if it's present.
- XTC (assuming it's largely reliant on ILD) should be more tolerant of reflections and ambient interference


After spending a certain degree of time listening to the AudioMulce RACE implementation, my overwhelming impression is that it performs amazingly well in my extremely poor room. Simply setting up the speakers with some 2" foam at the first reflection points, the stage width was 100-110 degrees, and there was no sense of physical constraint in the soundstage - apparent depth was present, and the sense of ambient space was very good. In contrast, my conventional stereo setup in the same room (7'x16') is marginal - decent lateral localization but not terribly expansive, with not much depth sensation. Additionally, I *think* tonality and low-level detail were better, but I reserve comment on that until I can do a more reasonable A/B.
 It wasn't all roses, though. Some recordings definately had wierd effects - some being '3 blob' - hard left, hard right, and center.  These were the minority, though - most were greatly improved, and only a few were distractingly worse than stereo. Playing around with the settings seems to indicate that it's possible to back off the aggressiveness of the settings to get better results on the poor recordings, although that greatly complicates the playback interface.

So, I remain very interested in the approach. I can see why folks with the luxury of a large room may find it uninteresting, but IMHO the potential it holds for dramatically better spatial presentation in smaller spaces is very interesting. 

dwk

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Re: On system philosphy and the CS2's
« Reply #126 on: 29 Jan 2008, 02:32 pm »
Following up my rushed post from last night, I wanted to refer to the 'Optimal Source Distribution' paper which is really what got me interested in this several years ago, but I can't immediately find a copy of the paper online anymore. Here http://www.isvr.soton.ac.uk/FDAG/VAP/html/osd1_files/frame.htm is a slide presentation on the same material, although it by necessity omits some detail. Given the thrust of the paper it's amazing that the simple dipole approach works as well as it does :-)

The upshot of the work is that for any specific angular separation in an XTC approach, there is only a range of frequencies where the cancellation is effective and numerically stable. Higher in frequency you run into nulls where the two speakers are 90-degrees out of phase and so cancellation is impossible, and lower in frequency you run into problems where the two signals are so close to in-phase that you blow a lot of headroom trying to cancel.  Thus, the 20-degree arrangement for the single stereo dipole in the ambio examples is a compromise, trying to find the best spot for a single pair that adequately covers the spectrum.  The practical OSD approach uses 3 pairs of drivers spaced appropriately to cover the complete spectrum, and thus largely avoids the stability problems. I actually have a set of drivers around that is virtually perfect for their example 3-way arrangement with xover freqs at 650 and 3.5k, and this may finally be enough to get me to take a shot at setting up a prototype system. The signal processing path may be a bit of a pain to set up though, since it requires 3 independent instances of the XTC signal flow, with varying delays and probably amplitudes (not to mention the need for introducing an xover into the mix); I have all the tools to do this, it's just a matter of dedicating the time.

It bears mentioning that the conditions that cause problems achieving XTC at higher frequencies for a given source span are the same things that induce comb filtering in the conventional stereo approach. This is actually one of the things that I'm very interested in looking at. It may be the case that we can 'listen through' this comb filtering without problem, but considering the lengths that speaker/crossover designers go to in order to avoid it I'm not going to assume that. Certainly we're 'used to it', but I can't help but wonder whether it'll prove to be an effect where you don't notice the impact until it's gone. (I'm not entirely sure how to A/B this independently of the other aspects of XTC, though)

Anyway, none of this should obscure the primary observation that IMHO the RACE implementation works remarkably well out-of-the-box on the majority of tracks that I have tried. Enough so that I'm leaving my system set up this way for now rather than reverting to a conventional arrangement.
« Last Edit: 29 Jan 2008, 02:54 pm by dwk »

Daygloworange

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Re: On system philosphy and the CS2's
« Reply #127 on: 29 Jan 2008, 05:59 pm »
Great post dwk.  :thumb:

Thanks for the links.

I've started a thread in Audio Central dedicated to 360 sound reproduction. I thought it would be fun to talk more about it, in depth, in a thread dedictated to the topic itself.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=50309.msg451351;topicseen#new

Cheers