[mpauly]

I've committed myself to building a new set of speakers for my 2-channel setup this year and I'm having difficulties deciding which design to go for.  My woodworking skills are decnet, but I'm not speaker designer, so I'll be going for a kit of some sort.  

I've been tooling around on lots of forums looking for the right speaker kit and there arejust so many options out there.  Unfortunately, I don't have many friends in my area (NJ) that share this hobby, so I haven't had the opportunitiy to listen to lots of kits.  

My listening room is in a corner of my finished basement and the room is  roughly 16'x26' with 8' ceilings.  It's a dedicated system, so WAF isn't an issue.  I'll also be upgrading the rest of my 2 channel system with a modded SB3, possibly new preamp and D-100 or similar mono-blocks. (Speaker choice will dictate these choices). In the meantime I'll be using them on my current mediocre setup of a modded Pioneer PD-65 CD into a Foreplay tube pre into a modified Belles 150A amp (similar to the hot rod version).

My music tastes are pretty varied from classic rock, to jazz to vocals to metal (most everything but orchestral pieces).  I particularly like dynamic live music and love a speaker that can convey those dynamics while still getting the voicals and imaging correct.  I'm don't go nuts over a huge soundstage, just want the reproduction of the imaging to be correct.

The two kits that I've been eyeing so far are:

GR's yet to be named open baffle design:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=24018
This kit would be $1500 with all the parts needed (damping, sub amps, etc) plus the cost of cabinet, which is about as complex as I'd like to go. Based on the limited reviews I've seen of this at its RMAF debut it seems to be what I'm looking for.  Detailed, airy vocals with the OB Mids and Neo Tweeter and good dynamics with the two MM chambers and sub.

Exodus 6241:
http://www.diycable.com/main/product_info.php?cPath=24_92&products_id=571
This kit would be $800 plus cabinets. Again, based on the limited reviews, seems like a great speaker with extremis providing great dynamics and the W125 mid.  I know very little of the Usher Tweeter though.

Any opinions on the above kits?  Any others you might recommend?

Thanks in advance,
Michael

[Gordy]

You should take a serious look at David Ellis' 1801's as well, he has a circle here at AC... http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=28  and here is his web site... http://www.ellisaudio.com/

David is great to work with and his circle is very active with people who can help you along the way if needed!

[markC]

I too have been thinking about new speaks and diy is a must as funds are limited @ this time. The 2641's look interesting, although I am a bit reserved about the very low power handling capability of the usher tweeter and it's on axis response. Also, I'd be curious to know about the power handling capability and a response curve for the finished speaker.

[gitarretyp]

I'm in a similar spot right now. I'm deciding between the new gr research speaker (in MTMWW configuration), the selah tanzanite, and the sp tech essence av-1. You might also want to take a look at the others i'm considering.

[kfr01]

I too have been thinking about new speaks and diy is a must as funds are limited @ this time. The 2641's look interesting, although I am a bit reserved about the very low power handling capability of the usher tweeter and it's on axis response. Also, I'd be curious to know about the power handling capability and a response curve for the finished speaker.

markC:

I wouldn't worry about the power handling capability of the usher tweeter.  I think you've been a bit confused by the different way manufacturers rate their tweeters:

http://www.madisound.com/pdf/seas/e011.pdf

Take this very expensive seas tweeter, for example.  See the little text below the rating?  The stars next to the power numbers?  That means Seas took those measurements w/ a 2.5khz crossover in place.  The Usher is a high quality tweeter and will handle power similarly to the Seas with a similar crossover in place.  Indeed, in the 2641 design the tweeter crossover point is at 3.7K with a 4th-5th order acoustic slope; steeper and over 1khz higher than that used in the Seas measurement.  In other words, the frequencies that could really excite the tweeter into over excursion or over heating are all but eliminated.  Now see  http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm - it says:

"Thanks to a reader, here is a small table that shows the power distribution at different crossover frequencies. The table came from a loudspeaker manual "LOUDSPEAKER ENCLOSURE DESIGN AND CONSTRUCTION" published by FANE.

X-over Frequency (Hz)   Power to Bass (%)   Power to Mid+High (%)
250                                         40                     60
350                                         50                     50
500                                         60                     40
1,200                                        65                            35
3,000                                        85                            15
5,000                                        90                            10

Note that according to this table, the equal power point is 350Hz (which I calculated, since it was left out of the original). This is slightly different from my own measurements, but the error is of no consequence, regardless of who is right. As can be seen, the power requirement falls quite rapidly after 1200Hz, and although not shown, it also falls off with reducing frequency."

In other words, with a steep 3.7khz crossover point, so little of the power is going to the tweeter anyway.

I really don't think you should be worried -at all- about the power handling of the tweeter.  

Actually, given the excursion capabilities of the Extremis, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a similar design that would handle MORE power.  Most power handling limits to speakers are set by excursion limits of the lowest frequency driver.  Unless you live in a warehouse or like bleeding ears, this really isn't an issue with 2 Extremis drivers per speaker.  

Another thing about power handling of the 2641.  Both the midrange and extremis driver use XBL^2 motor design.  This design has been shown to not significantly compress as power increases (unlike most other designs).  In other words, as you crank the volume knob, the speaker sounds the same - the motor continues to have the same control over the cone.

As for on-axis performance, see the graphs and what the designer has to say: http://www.diycable.com/main/pdf/2641.pdf

As you can see, he corrected pretty well for the response of the Usher tweeter in the final on-axis curve.  Off-axis response is excellent.  I doubt you'll find many other diy designs that even publish their off axis response.

I find the final response very even and non-fatiguing.

[goskers]

Another couple possibles would be the Adire Apex and Selah's Peridot.

I would recommend the SL's Orion but that would require 4 additional amp channels.  If this wouldn't be a deal breaker I would definitely check that out.

[mpauly]

Thanks for the suggestions so far.  I should have made myself a little clearer in my original post, but I'm looking for a speaker that can handle the full audio reange, which probably necessitates a floor stander.  While I realize some of the benefits of a monitor, I want the full range (low 30's -3db point) and dynamics and I'm not too keen on trying to integrate a seperate sub on my own (remember I'm no speaker designer).

That said, the kits that selah offers seem to be really interesting as well.  Price a little higher then I had originally budgeted,so I'll need to look into them a little more.  From what I've read though, the RC4 and peridot get nothing but great reviews.  I'm concerned about the relatively low sensitivity (86db/w), so I'll need to look further into the amplification requirements as well.  Anyone have any input on how much better the RC4 is over the  Peridot?  

The Apex, again seems very interesting, somewhat similar to the Exodus 2641 but adding 2 more extremis,  a rear firing WS125 and swapping in a ribbon tweeter.  I've not read any reviews, so again, more research is required.

Any other full range kit suggestions?

Again, Thanks!!

Michael

[goskers]

Michael,

Depending on how much HT, if any, you will be doing with this setup would dictate some things.  IMO, the peridot would not be missing much except the sub from the RC4.  The L18 8" driver used instead of the excel driver in the RC4 does not miss much especially for the range specified.

While I have not heard the apex it intrigues me a lot.  Dan Wiggins is a very well respected designer who does not get as much press as he deserves.  This speaker would be first rate without a doubt.  If I were looking to build a box speaker I would look at either one of these very hard.

[MarkM]

The Peridot looks to be the best value for the $$$.  I like the idea of using the affordable L18's in this application, especially the frequency range they are crossed for.  

You get the same mid and tweeter from the RC4.  Just need a table saw and time to put together a pair of cabinets.

When funds allow, you can pick up a sub enclosure from Partsexpress for reasonable $$$ and put together a very good sub if desired.  

I also like the idea of dual Extremis 6.8 speaker from Diycable, good bass response in a small foot print, decent mid driver.

If you are considering the Channel Islands D100 amp, you might as well look at the Hypex kits and move up to the UCD400 modules for more juice.   The amp kit looks about as straight forward as it gets.
 
I am currently selling a pair of Snell C/V to fund the Peridot kit.

Good luck.

[gary]

The Bastanis Prometheus (www.bastanis.com or www.baulsaudio.com) might be another option. At over $2k they're pricey and on top of that you have to build your own baffles & sub enclosures, but after they're built & have a few hundred hours on them they're right up there with a lot of the $10k+ speakers I've heard.

They definitely do full range the right way, with no crossover between 100Hz and 10kHz and no ported box to muddy things up.

Gary

[Dan Kolton]

Check out the Orions at www.linkwitzlab.com.

[markC]

markC:

I wouldn't worry about the power handling capability of the usher tweeter.  I think you've been a bit confused by the different way manufacturers rate their tweeters:

http://www.madisound.com/pdf/seas/e011.pdf

Take this very expensive seas tweeter, for example.  See the little text below the rating?  The stars next to the power numbers?  That means Seas took those measurements w/ a 2.5khz crossover in place.  The Usher is a high quality tweeter and will handle power similarly to the Seas w ...

Thanks for the links... I guess that if you choose a respected manufacturer of a driver, you just have to have faith, unless you have the mics and necessary equipment to prove it for yourself. I certainly like the specs of the Extremis and the response curve of the Usher is quite impressive as well. I would like to know the volume of the woofer box so that I can run it through my own software. One thing that is hampering my desision to purchase the kit is that they will not supply signifigant improvement over my current modded 2.5 way speaks. But I do suspect that with a 3 way design including, of course, the mid driver, I will experience a more open and "you are there" presentation. Soundstage and imaging is a must, and also bass response and the sparkle of a well extended high end without glare or edge is paramount for me. Any further info that you could pass on is much apriciated. I'll ask Kevin eventually, but I'm sure that he's busy with the trade show.

[audioferret]

I am currently building the RAW HT3, a 3-way floorstander with a ribbon tweeter that reportedly has usable base down to 25Hz (tuned to 29HZ)

I will post my progress on my web site this weekend...its been busy.

-Will
www.geocities.com/ghaunadaur99/audio/diy.html