[DeonC_ZA]

Good day to all

I am not currently using any GR Research products (or not yet, anyway), but this post follows on from a video Danny posted on YouTube regarding speaker cables. Now, my query does not actually relate to speaker cables, but to something else Danny mentioned, and that is speaker placement. Here goes.

I have managed to buy (I am on a very limited budget) a decent system. My front-end is a modified Lenco turntable, DIY phono stage, Nuforce MSR-1 server and Proceed PDT3 transport. They run through a modified Theta ProPrime DAC (modified to have three co-ax inputs, no optical). I have a Nuforce P-8 preamp and DIY T-amp power amps. My speakers are, to my mind, somewhat special: I got a set of Miller and Kriesel Satellite 1 speakers (the original versions with the Peerless drivers) and I am using it with a Ruark Logrhythm sub. Here is my problem- I have to use the system in a VERY small room, one that doubles as my study. It's about 9.8ft. x 10.5 ft. (3m x 3.2m), with a desk behind the listening position. I have shelves (LP and books) lining the one wall almost to the celing. The other wall is a built-in cupboard of which I have removed the doors (it is full of various parts, speaker drivers, tools, etc.) and another tall LP shelf. The main problem is that the speakers must stand close to the wall (circa 1ft from the wall behind them). Even so, I am sitting only about 5ft to 7ft away from the speakers. I heard what Danny said about placing speakers close to the walls, but I have no other option. I want to use acoustic absorbers on the walls behind the speakers, but will this be enough? And what and where do I put them? Thickness needed? I do plan to put some acoustic foam strips either side of the tweeter arrays, with more strips above and below them, and this might help a lot, but I still need some advice. Help please.

Thanks,
Deon

PS. I posted more info about my systems in my introduction thread.

[corndog71]

I would recommend diffusers in a room that small.  I usually put absorption at the 1st reflection points but it sounds like your side walls are already covered.  If you can, get some diffusers for the front wall and ceiling.

[DeonC_ZA]

I would recommend diffusers in a room that small.  I usually put absorption at the 1st reflection points but it sounds like your side walls are already covered.  If you can, get some diffusers for the front wall and ceiling.

Thanks for the advice, especially regarding the celing treatment (I kinda forgot about that). It is in line with what I was thinking as well. I have a 27" curved monitor on the desk, which will be behind me when I am listening, so I am thinking of building a small diffuser panel that will stand behind the monitor when I work, and can be put in front of it when a listening session commences. I have a small woolen tapestry that I want to put on the wall between the speakers (for sound and esthetic reasons), but I am not sure if this will be sufficient as an absorber. Should I rather put something like a skyline diffuser there, or will it not make that much of a difference? I want to make some thick felt absorbers to put behind the speakers, and maybe some bass traps, but I am also afraid of over treating the room. And this is why I turned to this forum. I hope you guys can give me some good advice.

Thanks again,
Deon

[mlundy57]

GIK Acoustics is a good place to get advice and they have different treatment options. They have a section on their website  https://www.gikacoustics.com/  where you can input the information on your room and upload photos. GIK also has a circle here on AC  https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=183.0  for more reading.

[DeonC_ZA]

GIK Acoustics is a good place to get advice and they have different treatment options. They have a section on their website  https://www.gikacoustics.com/  where you can input the information on your room and upload photos. GIK also has a circle here on AC  https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=183.0  for more reading.

Thanks for the heads-up. I'm heading there right now.

[toocool4]

Anything that has the horsepower to work behind your speakers in that room will be more than 1ft thick, if you really have no space. I say you need to buy speakers that are designed to sit close to walls. Your speakers really need to match your room, are you sure you need a sub in a room that small?

[DeonC_ZA]

Anything that has the horsepower to work behind your speakers in that room will be more than 1ft thick, if you really have no space. I say you need to buy speakers that are designed to sit close to walls. Your speakers really need to match your room, are you sure you need a sub in a room that small?

The thing is that the M&K Sat 1s only go down to about 70Hz, so a sub is needed. The Ruark Logrhythm is a sealed sub, so it won't exite the room modes quite as much, but yeah, I have my work cutout for me. The thing is that I am on an extremely tight budget, and I got the M&Ks for an absolute bargain. They on their own used to retail for US$1600, and at that time you could get a set of AR90 speakers for US$700. I got these for an equivalent of about US$350, and I simply couldn't let them pass me by. I work as a clerk in the South African Police Force, so my salary is only the equivalent of about US$1k a month. Then you have to deduct tax, rent (which is about a third of total salary), debt repayments (another third), and then I have to buy food and necessities. So, since I had the money available, this was not something I could pass up. Now I want to make it work as best I can. I can make an absorber about half a foot thick with spaced felt laters, something like a boffle (as used in speakers), and that might be effective. As for bass, I am saving up to get a Dayton LF DSP, but with transport costs, etc, to South Africa, that becomes an expensive little excursion. All-in-all not easy, but workable I think (or I hope). As I understand the M&K Sat 1 can work close to a wall, but obviously it is not optimal. So I was hoping to get advice on how to remedy the situation somewhat. And great advice is what I have gotten so far, and hope to continue to get. Thanks for your trouble so far.

[toocool4]

I don’t know what to advice. Clearly in your small room those speakers are not working, so it’s clearly not the bargain you think they are.
If they are worth what you think they are, you can possibly sell them for more than you paid for them and look for something that works in your room.
Have you thought about just setting up a headphone system? Since that will solve the room problem.

[JLM]

For space challenged folks I recommend open air headphones.  You'll fight that room no matter what you do and will still lose.  Keep your setup for casual listening if you like and in case you come across a bigger/less squarish room.

[Early B.]

For space challenged folks I recommend open air headphones.  You'll fight that room no matter what you do and will still lose. Keep your setup for casual listening if you like and in case you come across a bigger/less squarish room.

Good idea.

[DannyBadorine]

Sound treatment can still help in a room that small. 4" thick panels on the sides, behind or pretty much anywhere in the room will help.  It might even be best to put them hanging from the ceiling.  I would find rock wool panels.  Don't waste your time with foam or anything too thin.  A small room is definitely going to choke the low end somewhere so you need thick panels to deal with that. 
If you buy Rockwool 80 insulation and make your own panels then you will save a great deal of money.
https://www.acoustimac.com/roxul-rb8-2in?campaignid=1340595779&adgroupid=59495208171&creative=472662632607&matchtype=&network=g&device=c&keyword=&gclid=Cj0KCQiA_JWOBhDRARIsANymNOZTGGOyIcn8qIw1XAbqoqWl8lD5KivBSM0seCup6YWHvOZsL7_EnS0aAnI0EALw_wcB

Get a minidsp processor for the sub.
https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-2x4-hd

A sealed sub is a great idea in that room.  An 8" or 10" sealed driver is plenty big.  You could also buy a sub with an amp and processor built in.

[rotarius]

Deon, what exactly is the problem with the sound?  I did not catch that in the first post.  Speakers being a foot from a wall is not always a disastrous thing that needs acoustic panels and what not.

[DeonC_ZA]

Deon, what exactly is the problem with the sound?  I did not catch that in the first post.  Speakers being a foot from a wall is not always a disastrous thing that needs acoustic panels and what not.

TBH, nothing yet. I am still in the process of finishing everything and setting it up. I was always thinking of doing some room treatment, but then I saw the video by Danny on power cables (gonna get me some of those when the budget allows), and I guess I kinda panicked a bit. Thing is, I have been saving up and slowly collecting components and pieces over a period of several years, one piece at a time, whenever I was able to get a real bargain (and I missed out on several due to not having the funds at the time). Only now am I close to getting to the point to be able to set everything up, and I really need it to sound good. I don't want to have collected and sweated so long just to set it up and have a dud. As it is, I will only be able to finish the power amps after the end of January when I get my bonus, as I have to wait until then before I can buy the amp boards (I already have the chassis, toroidal transformers and caps, etc, for the linear PSU). For the moment I'll drive them from the main amp section of an old Yamaha DSP-A2070. That said, after I saw the video by Danny I thought I'd reach out to the guys in this forum who have been the benefactors of Danny's wisdom for much longer than me. And so far you have given me a lot to think about. Buying other speakers are not really an option at this moment. Getting anything near the quality of these will cost me much more than I have available. Before these came along, I was thinking of saving up for something like the ATC SCM7 of their bigger brothers, the SCM11 (I was kinda leaning the SCM11, as they cost almost the same 2nd hand). But both those would have cost me more than twice what I paid for the M&K, and then I'd have to import them (I have not seen any available 2nd hand locally). So that is a bit of a insight into my story. Here is a picture of what they look like (pic from the web, but mine are identical)



Just as an aside, I don't mind tweaking, and looks don't bother me much. So sticking a number of felt strips on the baffle, even though it'd look bad, won't bother me in the slightest. Ditto for various DIY panels all over the walls. I'm all about the sound. I'll admit, one of the things that made me jump for these is their potential to play loud. I like loud, as long as it's clean.

To answer another question- I don't mind wall mounting them, and that is still an option, but that way they'll be even closer to the wall, hence me building (or I should say modifying) the stands I am busy with. I can build wall-mounted shelves that could push them far out into the room (as much as 1ft to 1.5ft if need be), but will this not be a unstable mount? The stands will be super heavy, and I am going to put them on spikes, which will in turn be put on metal plates, which will in turn rest on anti-vibration pads, like the one in the pic below. Ditto for my sub. This is to isolate the room from the vibrational energy of the speakers and the subs.



Anyway, enough of my prattling. Thanks again to all the guys who took the time to repond.

Deon

PS. I have some decent headphones (Grado SR125), but prefer the impact and presentation of speakers. Phones can often sound too 'on top of me'. I use them a lot, but when I wanna rock out, speakers are the way to go.

PPS. Please forgive any silly spelling mistakes. I am typing responses on my phone, as I am visiting my brother and family for the holidays and I am far from my PC. Therefore there can be some very silly spelling errors that I don't pick up even after proofreading the typed text.

PPPS. For those who want to read a bit more about these speakers, here is a link to a PDF. It is missing the 2nd page, but it has enough info to get an idea. Interestingly, the Volkswoofer that sold with these had a 12" motional feedback woofer. Here is the link:

Miller & Kreisel Volkswoofer and Satellite -1A loudspeakers - World Radio History

[toocool4]

I thought you had already listened to your system and you had issues with the sound. Everything you are panicking about is academic at the moment, until you have listened to the setup you don’t know.
Don’t base buying anything on reading reviews or on price, you are setting yourself up for disappointment. For starters you don’t know if any of this kit will synergise and work together.

[DeonC_ZA]

I thought you had already listened to your system and you had issues with the sound. Everything you are panicking about is academic at the moment, until you have listened to the setup you don’t know.
Don’t base buying anything on reading reviews or on price, you are setting yourself up for disappointment. For starters you don’t know if any of this kit will synergise and work together.

I understand this, but there was no way for me to audition before I bought. I am just trying to identify a possible problem and treat it before final assembly. As I said, given the small room, room treatment was always on the cards. I just needed more opinions. I am glad I asked, because the one thing I forgot about was the ceiling. As the old saying goes, 'failing to prepare is preparing to fail'.

[rotarius]

Deon, thanks for clarifying.  You don't want a solution in search of a problem.  This seems to happen a lot in the audio world.  So, listen first, then get a decibel meter and check your in room response. 
Keep in mind, the construction materials of rooms and houses are probably different in the USA and the acoustic treatments if required will be different.  For example, our homes are typically wood frames with interior drywalls that are acoustically very different from a room with concrete walls found in many other countries.  So, whatever you see in reviews does not always apply to your specific situation.  In any case, your subwoofer placement is likely going to be the key in how well things turn out.

[corndog71]

So, how does it sound right now?  Does anything about it bother you?

I really wouldn’t worry about upgraded cables at this point.  In a not so great acoustic environment you’re just not going to get the most benefit from them. 

Is this your home or are you renting with the possibility of moving to a better situation?

[mlundy57]

I understand this, but there was no way for me to audition before I bought. I am just trying to identify a possible problem and treat it before final assembly. As I said, given the small room, room treatment was always on the cards. I just needed more opinions. I am glad I asked, because the one thing I forgot about was the ceiling. As the old saying goes, 'failing to prepare is preparing to fail'.

It's important to do as much as you can with speaker set-up first. Proper set-up will fix a lot of issues people experience when they just set the speakers down arbitrarily.  After you have done what you can with placement, then is the time to look at room treatment to address issues that couldn't be fixed with set-up.

There are a number of ways to go about proper set-up. Two methods are "The Sumiko Master Set" and PS Audio's "The Audiophile's Guide" and accompanying CD "The Audiophile Reference".

Here's info on the Sumike Master Set:  https://www.thesoundapprentice.com/2019/11/sumiko-speaker-placement-guide.html   and   https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=60819.0

Here is info on the PS Audio method   https://www.psaudio.com/products/the-audiophiles-guide/   and   https://www.psaudio.com/products/reference-music/

The PS Audio approach is unique in that it is not just a set of written instructions. When you get both the book and CD you get a system that works like this: the book breaks the set-up process down into different aspects of sound reproduction. For each aspect (bass; treble; center image; soundstage width, depth, and height; etc.), the instructions tell you to do something with the speakers then play a particular track on the CD and what you should hear. If you don't hear what the book describes, you are told to make a particular adjustment and play the track again repeating the process until you get the described results. Different types of room treatment and their uses are also discussed.

Don't spend any time or money on room treatments upfront. I'd recommend the book and CD up front but nothing else until you know what you need.

[jlucas]

Once you have your room setup, measure the response at the listening position with REW (free) and UMIK-1 (not free) or equivalent microphone.  GIK Acoustics helped me tame what was a terrible small room that had more echo than you would think was even possible before any treatment, you could hear just talking in the room.