[Hirst]

I have a bit of an odd ball room that I use as an office.  I need advice to determine which end I should put the speakers and desk.
This is in the basement of an older home and the ceiling is only 7'. 

The room is 12' 6" long.  One wall is 10' 10", the other is only 9' 3" to accommodate the laundry room next to my office.

To complicate things I have a large cast iron radiator on the back of the wider wall.  The rad is 60" x 30" and is 34" off the ground and is 18" from the wall on the right. 

The narrow wall has a window in the upper right corner so I cannot put a bass trap there.

Currently I have the speakers in the wider portion of the room but I am hearing a little bias on the left speaker which I am guessing is due to it being closer to the wall and the sound not having to deal with the laundry wall jutting into the room.

Pictures are worth 1000 words so I will include pictures once it is a little cleaner.

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l                  ----radiator--   l
l                                        l
l                                        l
l                                        l
l                                        l
l                                    ---door
l                                    l
l-window------------------ l

Thank you in advance.

Regards,

Paul

[JLM]

Welcome to Audio Circle Hirst.

First, embrace the radiator (a diffuser of sorts).

Second, don't understand why you'd hear less bass from a speaker that is tighter in the corner.  What speakers do you have?

Third, you mention a bass trap, why?  A room that size would have a hard time accommodating bass "competent" (full range) speakers.  You might be better off with a small, quality, sealed sub paired with smaller main speakers.

Listening behind a desk is tough as it blocks/reflects sound.  Have you ever tried near-field listening (like recording/mixing studios use)?  In a small room you're practically forced into it anyway.  Compared to "typical" setups on the far end of the room, where the sound comes from "over there" I find it to be an exciting cross between headphones and set ups on the opposite wall.  Near-field also helps to remove room effects if you pull everything away from the walls.  I'd try locating the desk near the center of the room with stand-mount speakers located roughly a foot above the corners of the desk (assuming a full sized desk).

If you don't have stand-mounts or can't swing new speakers I only see two options to try, setup along the 12'-6" or 10'-10" walls with the desk facing them, but pulled away from the back wall (where bass will be unnaturally boosted).  Between low ceiling and desk you're in a tough pinch.  Depending on the speaker height, you might try putting floor-standers on short stands to reduce reflection off the desktop.

With the adjacent laundry, suggest insulating the adjoining wall if possible and adding (another?) drywall layer if it's running while you're listening.

[richidoo]

Welcome to AC Paul!

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l  X                ----radiator--   l
l                                        l
l                                        l
l                                        l
l                                        l
l                                    ---door
l  X                                  l
l-window------------------ l

Move them as far from walls as possible. Small 2 ways speakers can be listened to at very short distance, this improves S/N, reduces the volume which lessens the excitement of room modes. On stands right in from of your desk is worth a try. The room sound will be de-emphasized in relation to the direct sound from speakers.

[Hirst]

Thank you very much for your suggestions, being a newbie I truly appreciate it!

For a little history, when I started this escapade I had speakers on the corners of my desk but felt that something was missing.  I then built a pair of GR-Research X-LS, then a Folsom amp and psu, then bought an audioengine D1 DAC.  I was blown away with the sound and of course I wanted more.  I was thinking about building a set of the GR-Research OB-5 so I started to look on how to set up the room.  So the psb HT stuff was moved to the other part of the basement and now I have a little more room.

I am going to try the speakers up close again.  I will dig up the speaker stands that I made. 

I do have a 2'x4' sound absorption panel behind my head to reduce the reflection when the speakers were on the desk. 

I will try these suggestions and report back.

Thanks again,

Paul

[JLM]

Paul,

In order for us to help, you'll have to do much better than saying "felt that something was wrong".

Open baffle (dipole) speakers are the last option I'd try in a small room as they require lots of space behind them to work right.

The Folsom amp is only rated to output 15 watts per channel (wpc) which can greatly limit output/dynamics and endanger speakers from clipped signals (overload).  The X-LS are rated at 87 dB/m/w (average if honestly measured), so putting the numbers together you can expect 99 dB maximum if set up at the corners of your desk (less if across the room).  If you listen at late night, subdued levels you'll be OK.

What are your panels made of?  I dare say most audiophiles use open cell foam (the egg cartoon shaped stuff) which is useless (has nearly zero acoustic value).  With near-field setup treatments shouldn't be needed in your room, if you/speakers are away from walls.

[brother love]

The XL-S are really good speakers (used to own them), but they benefit from more power unless you are listening at low levels. Adding a subwoofer would help to reduce demands on Folsom amp/ XLS if crossover set higher.

Check out this thread for guidance w/ some good links for nearfield room set-up in my post #5. Look closely at ebag4 post #7 for an open baffle small room set-up (he truly is a resident expert on the subject, has built/ owned several GR Research speaker designs, & would be an excellent source for advice):

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=152285.msg1628076#msg1628076

[Hirst]

"ebag4 post #7"  That room has very similar dimensions to what I have.

I put the speakers on my stands at the edges of my desk and the sound is less full.  They sound better when about 8' and the volume turned up slightly.  I will try to move my desk forward from the wall and bring the speakers closer and see how that sounds.

As far as the power of the Folsom, I am probably closer to 12 wps as I had to use a less powerful component due to an oos situation.  The correct component will be shipped early Jan. 2018.  I do not have any measuring tools but I do listen to these speakers at 8' from me at level 10-12 depending on the compression of the source.  I would not want to turn them up past 20 on a scale of 100. 

The material in the absorption panels is Roxul Safe'nSound.  Panels is 4' x 18" x 3".    I have triangular pieces in the corners for a bass trap that go up to 4' high.  What I will try is to place the speakers in a similar location to ebag4 and move two of my panels against the wall s beside the speakers to reduce reflection.  The radiator will act as the diffuser.

My future plan is to build speakers that will have a cross over designed so that I can send the low end to a powered sub and use the Folsom for the mid and tweeter. 

Thank you very much for the suggestions.  I do realize that I need to do more in order for you to be able to help me. 

Take care,

Paul

[ebag4]

Hi Paul, welcome to AC!

As noted above, I have been in a room with very similar dimensions for many years.  If you have free reign of the room you can put together a very satisfying system IMHO. 

The treatment indicated in the linked thread is where I ended up after much trial and error.  I have tried small bass reflex, Horn Shoppe Horns and several iterations of OB speakers in this room.  By a significant margin the best sound to my ears has been achieved using OB bass with OB from 200hz and up as well. 

OB bass does not overload the room like monopole bass does (I have never tried the Swarm multi-subwoofer type of bass which can work well from what I have read), you get good clean articulate bass (with the dual 12" servo subs in H frame the bass is deep and sounds great) .  I have used the H frame servo subs with my last 3 speaker systems.

As others have said, you are almost assured to be in a near field setup by default in a room of this size, the best sound I achieved was through setting up a nearfield layout away from room boundaries as much as possible.

With regard to room treatment, I found absorption important, but it is possible to overdo it and deaden the room.  At one point I built a large faux front wall full of Roxul, this resulted in an overdamped room.  With OBs I found diffraction  on the front wall between the speakers to bring a nice improvement.

The biggest single improvement in imaging and soundstage I experienced in this room was with Danny's (GR Research) Wedgie speaker, however all of the room treatment was already in place when I first tried the Wedgie.

Even when using OB bass, measuring room response will pay great dividends.  With the servo sub system I use there are several settings to be made, measuring room response and seeing how it changes with a change in settings will help you achieve the best sound you can get in your room.

I never placed my desk between the speakers and my ears, so I do not know what the real world impact will be, certainly not optimal but may not be a large enough negative to worry about.

Of course YMMV, this is all based on my ears, systems etc..

BTW, I built a modified OB5 speaker several years ago, this was my first experience with Danny's kits, I have built several of Danny's designs since then, here are the modified OB5s with Hawthorne Augies for bass:






Hope this helps.

Best,
Ed

[Hirst]

Thank you gentlemen so much!  This is exactly what I was hoping for.  Ed, our rooms are very similar.  I will move the speakers, absorption panels and desk to be closer to what Ed has and see how that goes. 

Yes, I have free rein on this room....it took 25 years and a very wonderful and understanding wife but I can now do as I please in this room.  The HT stuff is gone to the other part of the basement.

Thank you for the pictures.   Ed.....oh my, you did a lovely job on those!  My X-LS are bare MDF as I did not know how they would turn out.  After I finish the next set of speakers for my room I will make a new cabinet for them. 

My desk is an Ikea table with a wooden filing cabinet.  I understand that this is not ideal but it is much more open than a traditional desk.

Ed, knowing how your room sounds what speakers would you build if you had to replace what you currently have?  My woodworking skills are moderate but I have friends that are professional cabinet makers so I can always get help.   What did you use to make your defusser on your front wall?  I want to put something in front of the radiator and I may as well make it functional.  I have two layers of carpet and one is going to be donated to a worthy cause.  The other carpet leaves about a foot of bare flooring exposed around its perimeter. 

I will start reading up on how to measure room response and pick up the equipment that I need.  I am not looking for perfection as I have less than ideal hearing and use hearing aids.  However, I am stunned at how much I can hear from a decent sounding system ( as I currently have) and how enjoyable music is to me now.  I am hearing lyrics and notes from old favourites for the first time.  I am also really enjoying jazz now.  This is why I want to build a speaker that will be a full range speaker .  I am hoping with more efficient drivers and a servo sub that I can still use the Folsom.  I have grown attached to it.

Thank you everyone for your help.  I am so pumped about this.

Take care,

Paul Hirst



 

[ebag4]

Hi Paul.  The best my room sounded was with Danny's Wedgies in conjunction with a pair of GR Research servo subs in H frame alignment.  The Wedgies play from 200Hz and up so the bass section needs to be able to play that high.  These are the Wedgies:



Not to confuse matters but the bass base that the Wedgies are sitting on didn't work out for me, I believe I built them too small, the Servo subs in the speakers sitting next to them (H frame alignment) were what I used, they sounded much better.

For the diffuser I simply cut a cleat into two 2x4s for the vertical sides and fit two 4' high sheets into those cleats, I hung the frame on the wall using a French cleat.  With the plywood I used, it mattered which way I bent it, the first try snapped in two.

I don't know how hot the radiator gets, but a wood diffuser around it may not be the best solution, of course you can determine that.  There are other types of diffusers available to the DIY market now so you have other options.

Good luck!  Glad you are going to pick up what you need to measure, probably the best first step.

Best,
Ed

[FullRangeMan]

Hope this help:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=107352.msg1183456#msg1183456

[JLM]

Best DIY diffuser I've found:  http://www.pmerecords.com/Diffusor.cfm

Works in vertical and horizontal planes, uses acoustically dense material (wood), is deep enough to work down to 1,100 Hz, but is heavy (23 pounds per 18 inch square).

Agree that I'd be careful to cover the radiator.

I'd be leery of using MTM speakers (especially in a near-field setup) as to avoid cancellation between midrange drivers your ears must be at mid-height between the drivers.  This point really came home last year as several were invited to listen to MTM in a small room.  We all huddled together to audition, sitting on differing heights of chairs and being different heights of listeners.  As I moved to the front to snap a pic I saw everyone bobbing up and down trying to be in the right height.

[Hirst]

JLM: Thank you for the link to the diffuser.  A woodworking channel that I subscribe to made one.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvx5NYpDt1k
Unfortunately I threw out about 400lbs of scrap wood before I learned about this  The wall is drywall over concrete block but I was hoping to cover the rad with a diffuser and that would make the diffuser very heavy!  It would be nice to be able to make something out foam but I always want function over form or convenience.   I may look at making a false wall out of fabric to cover the rad and make the diffuser a realistic size.  That is another topic to work on.
The rad has the water flow shut off as it is literally 10 times too big for the room.  I use a small ceramic heater if I need heat during the winter.  It does not get that cold in Toronto.

I understand your concerns about speaker height.  My previous speakers that I had at the corners of my desk had a very narrow listening "band".  I had to set the height of my chair and not slouch. Not very relaxing having to sit rigid while listening to music.

FRM: Thank you for the link.  I thought that I was the only one with srs (small room syndrome).  I should have searched the forum more thoroughly!

I moved the speakers so that there is approx 6' between them and my listening position.  Speakers are 2' from the walls and I put the dampening panels at the reflection points.  Back of the speakers are angled toward the triangle absorption in the corners.  The left side bias is gone and I can now hear a sweet spot forming.   This is a huge improvement from all the other locations that I have tried.

Tonight I will clean out the room a little more so that I can move the desk closer to the center of the room and place the speakers in different locations.  With the progress made I have a much better idea of how to set up the room for listening while still being a functional office.



I do lack the vocabulary to describe the changes in the sound but I can say that the changes made following the suggestions posted have made a wonderful improvement. 

Thank you all!

Paul

[ebag4]

Hi Paul, I wanted to mention that I have a hydraulic desk chair and a recliner in my listening space, they differ in height by a few inches.  I experienced no cancellation effects when sitting in either of these two seats, thoretically you could, but in practice, moving down a few inches to the recliner, I did not find that to be the case, even in a near field setup ( about 5.5 feet).  The desk chair put my ears even with the tweeters so I am a few inches below that in the recliner. 

I have also run a coax driver from 200 Hz and up in this same space/setup, while very good, the MMTMM Wedgie bested it IMO.

Best,
Ed

[roscoe65]

Ed,

Is this because of the room or because the Wedgie is inherently superior to the coax?

Randy

[ebag4]

Ed,

Is this because of the room or because the Wedgie is inherently superior to the coax?

Randy

Hi Randy, I can only tell you what I heard.  The V1 (coax) is a great speaker, I really enjoyed them and my son is enjoying them now. 

The Wedgie is a special speaker, I can only assume this is due not only to the NEO3 but the LGKs as well.  The Wedgie reproduces detail with great accuracy, they image like crazy.  I seem to recall reading the reason the Wedgie works so well in a small room is at least partially due to the small diameter of the LGK, the closer driver centers is also supposed to help with the integration of the drivers.  The result is supposed to be less interaction with the sidewalls, I would agree, but look to Danny for the true technical reasons.

Best,
Ed

Edit:  I found the quote about LGKs suitability for small rooms although this is regarding the LGK 1.0 I would believe it still applies:

The LGK's hold there own in the mid-range. And in a small untreated room the more limited off axis response of the 3" drivers can be an advantage.

[JLM]

Open cell foam or hollow plastic has no acoustic value (useless), either as absorbers or diffusors. 

If the radiator is shut off, of course feel free to cover it.  Otherwise that would be dangerous. 

Try varying the distance from speaker to front and side walls.  A 1.6 ratio of distances is ideal.  Experiment from there.  I used Cardas.com golden cuboid to design my room and their setup suggestions for a near-field listening starting point. 

[roscoe65]

Hi Randy, I can only tell you what I heard.  The V1 (coax) is a great speaker, I really enjoyed them and my son is enjoying them now. 

The Wedgie is a special speaker, I can only assume this is due not only to the NEO3 but the LGKs as well.  The Wedgie reproduces detail with great accuracy, they image like crazy.  I seem to recall reading the reason the Wedgie works so well in a small room is at least partially due to the small diameter of the LGK, the closer driver centers is also supposed to help with the integration of the drivers.  The result is supposed to be less interaction with the sidewalls, I would agree, but look to Danny for the true technical reasons.

Best,
Ed

I suppose the only way to tell for sure is to A/B them in your new, larger space.

Intuitively, the driver sizes should it have much of an effect from the side walls, as the speakers should display a null at 90 degrees.  I would imagine the amount of work Danny has put into the OB HF modules may have more to do with it.  He has taken some inexpensive drivers and combined them with a great tweeter and waveguide/baffle. 

Conceptually I like the idea of coax drivers, but I am in the camp that believes trying to jam a compression drive into the voice coil of a bass driver brings some inherent compromises.  In the Altec world, the big coax drivers do not have the best HF drivers and their horns are compromised relative to standalone HF divers.