[Wayner]

If metal is left in an ultrasonic cleaner for a long period of time, it will dissolve. In my early days of drafting skool, we had an ultrasonic cleaner for the ink pen tips. Occasionally, someone would leave the tips in the cleaner over the weekend, and the tips would be gone or partially left.

'ner

[S Clark]

If metal is left in an ultrasonic cleaner for a long period of time, it will dissolve. In my early days of drafting skool, we had an ultrasonic cleaner for the ink pen tips. Occasionally, someone would leave the tips in the cleaner over the weekend, and the tips would be gone or partially left.

'ner

As a blanket statement, this cannot be true or the stainless vat itself would erode.  I suspect that the missing parts were more dependent on the nature of an acidic solvent as opposed to the effects of cavitation- or someone simply removed them. For a metal to dissolve, it has to be soluble, which almost always means it has to ionize, which almost always means it has to lose electrons, which means something has to take the electrons (hence, an acid).

[undertow]

Yeah I mean in this case I am not too concerned about the Enzyme cleaner as it's not metal anyway even if it was miraculously dissolving metal 

[Wayner]

As a blanket statement, this cannot be true or the stainless vat itself would erode.  I suspect that the missing parts were more dependent on the nature of an acidic solvent as opposed to the effects of cavitation- or someone simply removed them. For a metal to dissolve, it has to be soluble, which almost always means it has to ionize, which almost always means it has to lose electrons, which means something has to take the electrons (hence, an acid).

It is true and in time the stainless steel vat will eventually have to be replaced. We cleaned our pens with water.

Sonic cleaning is a cleaning method that is destructive by nature. It can be used to polish metal. It will start removing base metal when anything on top of it is gone. it does not know the difference between dirt and base metal. Sonic cleaners are not "intelligent", they hyper vibrate the crap out of everything (including molecules) and whatever bonds them together.

[S Clark]

Wait, you are saying that metal parts "dissolved" in water????  Over a weekend???  Now, you understand that all metals that are used in pen parts (no Li, Na, Ca, - I'll even give you Mg since it can react with steam) don't react with water, are not soluble in water, are not affected by the polarity of water molecules, so the cavitation would have to be what broke the molecules apart, in which case the powder would have been deposited at the bottom of the vat.  Pen nibs are Fe, Cr, Ni, w/ traces of V, W, Ir.  Earlier ones were primarily gold because the inks were caustic. This stuff just doesn't disappear in water.   
Let's just politely say I doubt if ultrasonic cleaners damage vinyl.  We have had this disagreement before about the possibility of damage, but this scenario is chemically so improbable/impossible...

[Minn Mark]

I think Mikey Fremer ( @ Analog Planet) now has an ultrasonic cleaner. And I guess he has lots of records; should be easy enough to ask for a trial of listening tests between cleanings and inspections to see if a vinyl LP degrades physically and/or sonically after 50 or so cycles.  Just a thought.

Mark

[Wayner]

Wait, you are saying that metal parts "dissolved" in water????  Over a weekend???  Now, you understand that all metals that are used in pen parts (no Li, Na, Ca, - I'll even give you Mg since it can react with steam) don't react with water, are not soluble in water, are not affected by the polarity of water molecules, so the cavitation would have to be what broke the molecules apart, in which case the powder would have been deposited at the bottom of the vat.  Pen nibs are Fe, Cr, Ni, w/ traces of V, W, Ir.  Earlier ones were primarily gold because the inks were caustic. This stuff just doesn't disappear in water.   
Let's just politely say I doubt if ultrasonic cleaners damage vinyl.  We have had this disagreement before about the possibility of damage, but this scenario is chemically so improbable/impossible...

Hopefully, you are not calling me a liar. Maybe they make cleaners a lot weaker now days. This was from 1972. However, the shower head in my upstairs bathroom drips down onto the bathtub faucet while it is running, and over the years, has worn the chrome off of the faucet. The destructive force of water is sometimes hard to believe. BTW, Niagara Falls moves back some distance every year.

Minn Mark, have Mickey run his record in the UC for a weekend non-stop. Man made materials and alloys start to break down the minute they are made. If you think that any kind of cleaner just cleans the dirt, you are not correct. It will slowly but surely start attacking at the molecular level. Iron rusts, aluminum oxides, vinyl (and speaker surrounds) degrade.

'ner

[S Clark]

Wayner,  I was serious when I suggested that someone took the parts out of the cleaner, as I can think of no other scientifically based explanation for their disappearance.  I'm not a chemistt, although I've got about a minor in it and taught chem for about 15-18 years.  I'll ask some of my collegiate friends both in physics and chem if they can come up with an explanation.  Perhaps they will have something.  After all, what we are after here are suggestions for record cleaning, not pursuing a fight between fellow AC audiophiles. 

The lost of chrome off a faucet is usually due a replacement reaction between Cr and Ca++ ions in water containing amounts of dissolved CaCO3.   Perhaps cavitation could cause a physical rubbing of parts against the bottom of the vat, but that would leave a residue and would take much longer than a weekend.  Also, it would speed up a reaction, but I doubt it would speed it up to that degree. 
Suggesting that an explanation is incorrect is not the same as calling someone a liar.  I don't doubt your story, certainly don't think you lied, but suggest that your explanation for what you observed and your following extrapolation concerning record cleaning are incorrect. 
I'll make some inquiries and report back. 
Scott

[Wayner]

It happened more then once. It has nothing to do with chemistry and everything to do with physics.

If you own an ultrasonic cleaner and clean your records 100 times, first I'd say you are extremely OCD or at least extremely anal and should give up records and go back to CDs. Fremer is not going to knock the UC he reviewed in Stereophile, they spend money on ads with them.

I personally have no worries about an ultrasonic cleaner if used "occasionally", but I know some people here think that if a little is good, then a lot is better. No common sense or sensibilities about some of the goings on.

The real fact is, I don't own any RCM other then the methods I have described here, and my records are extremely quite. The need to go so way over then top, spending $4K on a RCM is well, at least in my books, mindless. However, if the guy that wants one, buys one, then good for him.

'ner

[S Clark]

It happened more then once. It has nothing to do with chemistry and everything to do with physics.

Then perhaps your use of the term "dissolved" was misused since that is a chemical action.  I'll ask around the physics dept. and see if any of the local PhD's can offer enlightenment.   

[Wayner]

Show this to your physics guys.......From TM associates....

What is Cavitation Erosion?

Cavitation erosion is the effect of the part being left for too long a period in the tank. When the cavitation bubble collapses it generates a temperature of 5,000 degrees C and a shock wave that travels over 500 miles per hour. This will cause the cavitation to erode the part being cleaned. In lower frequencies such as 20kHz Cavitation erosion will eventually eat though the bottom of the tank. If your part has a smooth soft surface it can also be eroded by this effect. These effects are most prominent with lower frequencies.
The Photo shows a tank bottom that over time has severe cavitation damage.

Cavitation Vacuole

 By adjusting the power and frequency of an ultrasonic system to the level where it cleans the part without eroding the part you can avoid damage to the part. The higher the frequency, the more evenly spread out the power.  This produces more even cleaning on the part. Higher frequencies also produce smaller cavitation bubbles and can clean smaller particles.

Damage can also occur when the part is extremely fragile and it is placed in a position in the tank that suspends it so that part of the object is in an area of compression and part is in an area of reareification. This is more evident in the lower frequencies [ 20-40 kHz.  For this reason most delicate parts are cleaned in a high frequency ultrasonic tank. [ 70 to 200 kHz. By distributing the total energy of the tank over a greater number of energy peaks the overall effect is to create a very homogeneous power distribution and subject the part to an even level of energy.

Enough said.

[TheRevelator]

Seems the OP already got his answer, but to anyone else who might run across this thread I'll toss in another vote for Audio Intelligent Solutions... they make some great products.