[jea48]

There is a Die electric union that can/need's to be installed on the lines.  Since folks tie the electrical ground to a water line the water heater becomes a lab experiment.

Some City's have started out to out law using water lines for grounds so the water mains don't look like you hot water heater.  Try working on the meter in the front yard when there is aground issue in the house

I have a neighbor that is a electrician for a neighbor and his hot water heater looks like a lab experiment.

And then there is my house where they have 18 inches of copper in the dirt and they use that for a ground.  They also tie onto the re bar in the footing for a ground. There isn't that much of a footing/stem wall.

NEC Code requires if the domestic water line that enters the building structure is metallic then the electrical service neutral conductor shall be bonded, connected, to the water line within 5' of the point of entry of the building. Per NEC Code the water  pipe ground shall be augmented by at least one 1/2" X 8' driven ground rod if copper,  copperclad, or stainless steel.   5/8" X 8'  if galvanized steel. The local governing body has the final though.

 

[JLM]

Tankless have their other issues (up front cost, hard water scaling).

Gas water heaters require venting (not easy to add in the middle of a building) and even modern ones constantly waste heat up the flue.

The most efficient are point of use electric water heaters, but that requires electrical power at each hot water fixture (not easy to add in the tub/shower).


Do recommend adding a drip pan and water sensing alarm to avoid another nasty surprise.

[macrojack]

At home I have a Rinnai Tankless water heater. It is gas fired and direct vented. Upstream from it I have a whole house water filter. We have two bathrooms and take 2 showers simultaneously while running the washing machine and the dishwasher. The last two appliances heat their own water so that info really isn't material as anything but a strategy that works well. Our water heater has been serviced twice in 7 years. They come in and check calibration, clean the intake filter, and run white vinegar through the lines. It takes about an hour and costs under $100. Meanwhile I save around $7 or $8 a month on gas. The water heater is centrally located in a small ranch house. The temp is set for 115 degrees.

[Peter J]

At home I have a Rinnai Tankless water heater. It is gas fired and direct vented. Upstream from it I have a whole house water filter. We have two bathrooms and take 2 showers simultaneously while running the washing machine and the dishwasher. The last two appliances heat their own water so that info really isn't material as anything but a strategy that works well. Our water heater has been serviced twice in 7 years. They come in and check calibration, clean the intake filter, and run white vinegar through the lines. It takes about an hour and costs under $100. Meanwhile I save around $7 or $8 a month on gas. The water heater is centrally located in a small ranch house. The temp is set for 115 degrees.

Curious, what's the washing machine that heats it's own water?

That's a savings of  around $100 +/- a year on the demand WH. What was the initial cost to purchase and install? I've looked at them and just can't see how they save money overall.

 Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of only heating what's needed, but until they make sense from a value standpoint, I just can't recommend them to clients for the reasons called out by sales hype.

[srb]

That's a savings of  around $100 +/- a year on the demand WH. What was the initial cost to purchase and install? I've looked at them and just can't see how they save money overall.

When estimating tankless gas water heater cost, be sure to add any installation upgrades required.  Although they save energy, the gas flow / BTU requirements for tankless heaters is much higher than tank-style heaters.  I had an existing 1/2" gas line, but a 3/4" minimum gas line was required for the installation.  Some older homes may even require underground gas service line upgrades.

The run of venting through the roof may also require an upgrade, and depending on your local codes, the expensive triple wall stainless steel venting will add extra cost.

In my particular case, the extra ~ $800 of installation cost plus almost double the cost of the heater itself would have made the ROI break-even time ~ 15 years over a conventional tank heater and installation.

Steve

[macrojack]

My washer and dishwasher are made by Asko. The total installed cost of my Rinnai was $2775. The monthly savings could be higher than my estimate. I quoted conservatively so as not to be accused of misrepresentation. The only downside to my tankless is the extra water you use waiting for the hot to arrive -- and there is also the possibility of extremely long showers. My kid does that still even though he's 22. Even so, my monthly water bill hovers between $23 and $27.
To me it was and is a good investment.

[Danberg]

Also, don't forget the new EPA energy efficient regulations that will effect your cost on any new water heating tanks that are manufactured on or after April 15, 2015.  Information available on the internet. 


The expected price increases in manufacturing will be raising the costs of those hot water tanks (natural gas) to the consumer an estimated $400 to $600.  I do not specifically recall what the cost increase will be on electrically heated hot water tanks will be, but if memory serves, it will be the same or higher figures.   Additionally, the tank sizes will be increasing due to the additional insulation required.  That doesn't appear to effect the installation in this case, but where the new tanks are in tight quarters that may become a major problem (additional installation / construction expense).  The labor cost will also be going upwards, as the new tanks will weigh more, requiring a two man installation rather than the current, typical one man installation.

Make sure that you purchase a hot water tank that is manufactured PRIOR to the April 15th date, to save money on both the tank and labor to install.

[MtnHam]

Even so, my monthly water bill hovers between $23 and $27.

Consider yourself extremely lucky. Your local water rates must be very low compared to the national norm. I own rental property, and the norm seems to be about $60-80/month (including sewer which is commonly tied-in) for a 2-3 bedrooms unit. Water, being  more and more precious, is the new "gold" will continue to be more expensive.

[bladesmith]

Also, don't forget the new EPA energy efficient regulations that will effect your cost on any new water heating tanks that are manufactured on or after April 15, 2015.  Information available on the internet. 


The expected price increases in manufacturing will be raising the costs of those hot water tanks (natural gas) to the consumer an estimated $400 to $600.  I do not specifically recall what the cost increase will be on electrically heated hot water tanks will be, but if memory serves, it will be the same or higher figures.   Additionally, the tank sizes will be increasing due to the additional insulation required.  That doesn't appear to effect the installation in this case, but where the new tanks are in tight quarters that may become a major problem (additional installation / construction expense).  The labor cost will also be going upwards, as the new tanks will weigh more, requiring a two man installation rather than the current, typical one man installation.

Make sure that you purchase a hot water tank that is manufactured PRIOR to the April 15th date, to save money on both the tank and labor to install.

Great...   

[*Scotty*]

With these new regulations in effect it seems like the logical thing to do is save $40 a month towards the day that the vastly more complicated and expensive hot water heater fails and needs to be replaced.
 About 10years saving ought to be enough to be able to replace the old one. That's only $4800 after all, chump change for the affluent middle class family. Where was my Congressman when this was promugulated. As Onslow used to say, Oh nice!
Scotty

[jqp]

Thanks for all the input guys. It is a cold rainy night in Charlotte and I had a date tonight to watch college basketball (after a hot shower at my friends house).

Yes I see a reasonable gas water heater for $700 for the tank itself. Venting to the roof 25 feet up through 3 ceilings and the roof is included in my $2500 estimate for a tank water heater powered by natural gas. It is not piped, so there is that also, plus all the code regulations. Not sure I want a source of gas in the middle of the room on the bottom floor of a tri-level.

With the issues of high up-front cost and maintenance for electric tankless/on-demand heaters, I will pass on that. Amazing how Bob Villa and other hyped this on TV for 20 years versus the reality of actual costs.

So looks like I will do the $300 in-kind replacement (I am guessing for now $600-700 with labor etc.). Fortunately I can drain the old one with a 100' garden hose and removal should be fairly easy, out the same way they bring in the new one.

I will investigate the ground wire situation tomorrow. There is a sub-breaker box used by the heater about 10 feet away along the walls from the heater. Water comes into the house in the mid-level hall closet by the front door.

Yeah, now that I have read all the posts it does look like someone experimented with soldering copper pipes. More DIY by the previous owner's friends, or just a bad installer 20 years ago?

I will definitely get a drip pan for the new heater. Maybe I can monitor with my Local Area Network.

Just for reference, my Charlotte city water bill for water/sewer/stormwater is $39. If I go up in water consumption  from 1-4 Ccf to the next tier of 5-8 Ccf it would be another 6 or 8 dollars. Water is "cheap" here, sewer and stormwater are the bigger costs. (On a side note, they have been cleaning the sewer lines running down the middle of the streets with a robotic camera and a water pressure cannon, from manhole to manhole.)

[spudco]

Another myth debunked...

Tankless water heaters save money and energy!  Everyone knows this.  You can even get federal and state tax breaks for installing them.  They are part of making your home more "green", save huge amounts of energy and help us save the planet while relaxing in our showers.

Unfortunately, the data contradict this myth.

Here is a link to a study comparing tankless and tank-type water heaters:  http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/are-tankless-water-heaters-waste-money?lookup=auto&V27=&V28=&V29=&V30=&V31=&V32=&V33=&V34=&V35=&V55=&V56=&Taun_Per_Flag=True&utm_source=email&utm_medium=eletter&utm_term=water-heating&utm_content=20120416-concrete-countertops&utm_campaign=fine-homebuilding-eletter

It was pretty well designed, tracking water usage in 10 homes for an entire year.  All homes were equipped with both tankless and tank-type water heaters.  Only one type of heater was used in any month and the type in use was alternated every month.  A variety of tankless heaters were used.

The results painted a dismal portrait of tankless systems.

The best performing systems had an average payback period of 21 to 35 years.  Well in excess of the life span of the heater.

Other systems had payback periods of 27-38 years compared to simple tank-type systems.

One particular heater performed so poorly that payback was 51-71 years.

Neither tankless or tank-type water heaters lived up to their DOE energy efficiency ratings. 

Real world hot water usage is quite different that the usage modeled by the DOE.  The DOE calculates energy efficiency based upon 10 gallons of water being used in a single draw.  In the real world, only 3% of hot water usage fits that description.  The overwhelming majority of hot water draws are short, low volume draws.

[ctviggen]

Heat pump (electric) water heaters might be the best.  These use the heat in your basement (or wherever your water heater is) to heat water.  If, however, you don't have enough heat in the air or use water too quickly, it runs the electric heating elements.

As with anything, they can work well, but the issues are complex.  See:

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/heat-pump-water-heaters-come-age

They recommend you actually buy a larger size (80 Gallon), as then the heat pump will run more, and the heat pump is much more energy efficient.  However, you also have to have them in a relatively warm area; if it's too cold, efficiency drops. 

[Atlplasma]

Heat pump (electric) water heaters might be the best.  These use the heat in your basement (or wherever your water heater is) to heat water.  If, however, you don't have enough heat in the air or use water too quickly, it runs the electric heating elements.

As with anything, they can work well, but the issues are complex.  See:

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/heat-pump-water-heaters-come-age

They recommend you actually buy a larger size (80 Gallon), as then the heat pump will run more, and the heat pump is much more energy efficient.  However, you also have to have them in a relatively warm area; if it's too cold, efficiency drops.

I considered installing a heat pump water heater, but I was concerned that the plumber wouldn't get it quite right. You have to have enough space (or an intake) for the pump to work efficiently. You also need an appropriate space to vent the cooled air. If you live in a warm climate and have the right space configuration, heat pumps look like a winner. In the end, I purchase the high-efficiency Rheem Marathon electric mentioned in my previous post. FWIW, you can buy an add-on heat pump that will work with some types of conventional water heaters.

[jqp]

Well I finally got the new water heter installed. Basically a duplicate, but 38 gals istead of 40.

The plumber said i should not put a blanket over it, the vendor does not want that because it can mess with the internal workings. This unit has 2 inches of packed insulation inside the outer case I can feel the heat on the output pipe, when I place my hand on the top of the heater, it is cool to the touch.

This one has a 2 gal expansion tank, something new since 20 years ago. Also a much better shut off valve, ball versus spigot.

No copper pipe past the shutoff, pex is what they use now. He says it is the best to use.

So every 6 mo I will faithfully flush the silt, and check it more frequently. I will get a leak sensor of some kind. Since my purge valve pipe just went into my crawl space he could not put the pan under the heater. I will put it under at the first opportunity since the pex piping is a little flexible. Any kind of pan is better than no pan.

Thanks everyone for your input!