PC boards, connectors, point to point wiring, etc.

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Danny Richie

I'm asking myself the same question, but the moderator is the boss.  :scratch:
And Danny if you're still watching this.
It seems people have the same argument about PC board Xovers versus
point to point. I would expect you've tried it both ways but is there any
valid point to that one? I would have to agree on the crimp on connectors.
Also I have found in avionics work that we had some issues with oxidation
no matter how much we tightened the bolts, so to me the crimp connectors
are not the way to go.

Your best connections and the best way to maintain the purity of the signal is a point to point wired crossover. Here is a good example:



Not all point to point wired crossovers are equal though. All of the advantages can be negated by the insertion of a bunch of common electrical connectors. Here is a good example.



A joint with multiples of these things held together with nuts and bolts is even worse.

Not all circuit boards are equal either. Some are quite good. Nice wide heavy pure Copper traces work well and do not degrade the signal too much. If the conductive element is a thin aluminum film then that is going to be a problem.

Also check the connections on a circuit board. Ideally you want the wiring to slide right into the circuit boards where it is soldered right to the Copper trace. Like these...



You don't want to see connectors built onto the circuit board that allow bare wire to be slipped in and tightened with a steel screw. Like on this one...



Binding posts can also be a major issue as well. There has to be a connection there at the speakers. But the quality of this connection can vary a lot. And in some circumstances you'd be surprised at how much difference can be made in that area.

In general you want the least number of breaks in the wire and the least amount of material possible in the signal path that isn't a high quality wire.

SoCalWJS

Re: PC boards, connectors, point to point wiring, etc.
« Reply #1 on: 20 Feb 2014, 10:48 pm »
Good to know - food for thought.

I went ahead and upgraded the crossovers on my LS6's immediately after I got them, adding the Platinum's in place of some and a bypass elsewhere.......

Now I'm wondering what would be involved in turning it into a point to point?  :scratch:

Is it something a novice (read: idiot) like me could do? How many additional items would be needed? I'm assuming some sort of material to mount it to (any materials better to use?) I would need some sort of wire (recommendations?) I have silver solder and a simple iron with minimal experience..... Anything else?

Hmmmm..........

Danny Richie

Re: PC boards, connectors, point to point wiring, etc.
« Reply #2 on: 20 Feb 2014, 10:50 pm »
Good to know - food for thought.

I went ahead and upgraded the crossovers on my LS6's immediately after I got them, adding the Platinum's in place of some and a bypass elsewhere.......

Now I'm wondering what would be involved in turning it into a point to point?  :scratch:

Is it something a novice (read: idiot) like me could do? How many additional items would be needed? I'm assuming some sort of material to mount it to (any materials better to use?) I would need some sort of wire (recommendations?) I have silver solder and a simple iron with minimal experience..... Anything else?

Hmmmm..........

That is a really good circuit board on those made in the US by Erse. I don't think the difference you might get (if much at all) would be worth that much work.

SoCalWJS

Re: PC boards, connectors, point to point wiring, etc.
« Reply #3 on: 21 Feb 2014, 01:58 pm »
That is a really good circuit board on those made in the US by Erse. I don't think the difference you might get (if much at all) would be worth that much work.
Thanks for the feedback Danny. Guess I'll I'll skip that one.

....could have been an interesting learning experience, but I probably would have screwed it up.  :green:

jazyes

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Re: PC boards, connectors, point to point wiring, etc.
« Reply #4 on: 21 Feb 2014, 04:25 pm »
Just received my X-LS Encore kit and I'm awed by the the quality of the drivers and especially the
circuit boards (also got the Sonicap and res. upgrade). I almost don't want to disturb it, but was veiwing
X-over 101 in addition to this thread and found it extremely informative and helpful. After 25 years away  from the hobby/passion, I've got a lot of catching up to do. I definitely came to the right place.
Thanks Danny! Should I try to tackle the point to point or just replace the caps and resistors first, "burn in"
and enjoy for a while?

John

corndog71

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Re: PC boards, connectors, point to point wiring, etc.
« Reply #5 on: 21 Feb 2014, 04:40 pm »
Thanks for the feedback Danny. Guess I'll I'll skip that one.

....could have been an interesting learning experience, but I probably would have screwed it up.  :green:

It's fun and challenging if you're looking for a project.  Maybe pick up a cheap pair of monitors and rebuild the crossovers with better parts for fun.

Danny Richie

Re: PC boards, connectors, point to point wiring, etc.
« Reply #6 on: 21 Feb 2014, 04:46 pm »
Hey thanks John,

For that speaker I'd just replace the caps and resistors on the board just like in the pic above in the first post. That's the best and biggest gain for the least amount of work. Point to point wiring it and replacing the inductors will be a subtle upgrade by comparison. It will be an improvement though.

A bigger improvement with practically zero additional work is to upgrade the connectors on the back from the binding post cup to tube connectors.

I built out a pair with both connections in parallel so the two can be A/B'ed back and forth. It's quite the eye opener.


gab

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Re: PC boards, connectors, point to point wiring, etc.
« Reply #7 on: 21 Feb 2014, 05:20 pm »


You don't want to see connectors built onto the circuit board that allow bare wire to be slipped in and tightened with a steel screw. Like on this one...





I built a pair of Geddes Abbey's a few years back in kit form and the kit came with these:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/386712082/Electric_Grade_U_Type_Terminal_blocks/showimage.html

Earl recommended using only mechanical connections via these terminal block connectors and the only solder used was at the binding posts.

Any Abbey owners out there who built theirs that way or did you use solder instead of the terminal blocks?

gab

Danny Richie

Re: PC boards, connectors, point to point wiring, etc.
« Reply #8 on: 21 Feb 2014, 05:34 pm »
I built a pair of Geddes Abbey's a few years back in kit form and the kit came with these:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/386712082/Electric_Grade_U_Type_Terminal_blocks/showimage.html

Earl recommended using only mechanical connections via these terminal block connectors and the only solder used was at the binding posts.

Any Abbey owners out there who built theirs that way or did you use solder instead of the terminal blocks?

gab

Well, here is all I have to say about that. I sell a lot of upgrades to his customers. Typically they buy Sonicaps, Mills resistors, and lots of No Rez. And I have heard that most of his customers install some type of additional bracing to his cabinets. Tube connectors to replace the binding posts would also be a good idea.

jazyes

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Re: PC boards, connectors, point to point wiring, etc.
« Reply #9 on: 21 Feb 2014, 05:50 pm »
Hey thanks John,

For that speaker I'd just replace the caps and resistors on the board just like in the pic above in the first post. That's the best and biggest gain for the least amount of work. Point to point wiring it and replacing the inductors will be a subtle upgrade by comparison. It will be an improvement though.

A bigger improvement with practically zero additional work is to upgrade the connectors on the back from the binding post cup to tube connectors.

I built out a pair with both connections in parallel so the two can be A/B'ed back and forth. It's quite the eye opener.


Will do. Thanks!


mlundy57

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Re: PC boards, connectors, point to point wiring, etc.
« Reply #10 on: 21 Feb 2014, 07:34 pm »
That is a really good circuit board on those made in the US by Erse. I don't think the difference you might get (if much at all) would be worth that much work.

Danny,

Is this also the case for the circuit boards in the X-LS and X-CS models?

Mike

Danny Richie

Re: PC boards, connectors, point to point wiring, etc.
« Reply #11 on: 21 Feb 2014, 07:53 pm »
Danny,

Is this also the case for the circuit boards in the X-LS and X-CS models?

Mike

Those are a made in China circuit board, but I did specify their heaviest Copper traces be used. They're not bad.

IronForge

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Re: PC boards, connectors, point to point wiring, etc.
« Reply #12 on: 21 Feb 2014, 10:16 pm »
What about spade connectors, butt connectors, etc degrades the signal?  Is it the type of material? IE going from copper wire to tin, etc?  Is it the thickness of the connector? 

Connecting two speaker wires, the best is a solder with heat shrink?

SoCalWJS

Re: PC boards, connectors, point to point wiring, etc.
« Reply #13 on: 21 Feb 2014, 11:11 pm »
It's fun and challenging if you're looking for a project.  Maybe pick up a cheap pair of monitors and rebuild the crossovers with better parts for fun.
well...... long ago, before I knew of GR (or even AV123) I needed a set of speakers for my "small" system and bought a pair of B&W Bookshelf speakers (603's? - something like that). They're already in possession. Every now and then I think about messing around with their crossovers. I remember hooking them up to my main system several years back (swapping out Thiel CS3's) and not being hugely impressed. May have to pull them apart and see what the crossovers look like and figure out what possibilities exist. Would be educational, but doubt I could tell much difference. They're just used as external speakers for my Plasma TV (DirecTV through a cheap Denon) :dunno:

Danny Richie

Re: PC boards, connectors, point to point wiring, etc.
« Reply #14 on: 22 Feb 2014, 03:33 am »
What about spade connectors, butt connectors, etc degrades the signal?  Is it the type of material? IE going from copper wire to tin, etc?  Is it the thickness of the connector? 

Connecting two speaker wires, the best is a solder with heat shrink?

Most banana plugs are a Brass base metal. Your copper wire connects to one end then the signal has to pass through the small Brass grooved tips.



Then it get plugged into something like this at best... A Brass bolt.



Some companies like Cardas does make them from a Copper base metal.

Some of the better Spades are also made from Copper, but not most of them.



Each time the signal passes through this stuff there can be some disruption of the signal. Especially with changes in types of material.

dragoonxp20

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Re: PC boards, connectors, point to point wiring, etc.
« Reply #15 on: 22 Feb 2014, 10:19 am »
So between copper spades and copper bfa bananas, which is preferred?

lacro

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Re: PC boards, connectors, point to point wiring, etc.
« Reply #16 on: 22 Feb 2014, 02:09 pm »
Your best connections and the best way to maintain the purity of the signal is a point to point wired crossover. Here is a good example:





Hey Danny,
 What material is this crossover attached to? It looks like minicel foam?



Danny Richie

Re: PC boards, connectors, point to point wiring, etc.
« Reply #17 on: 22 Feb 2014, 04:50 pm »
So between copper spades and copper bfa bananas, which is preferred?

Most slightly prefer the spades.

Danny Richie

Re: PC boards, connectors, point to point wiring, etc.
« Reply #18 on: 22 Feb 2014, 04:50 pm »
Hey Danny,
 What material is this crossover attached to? It looks like minicel foam?

3/8" MDF.