AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => P.I. audio group => Topic started by: dBe on 16 Dec 2012, 10:26 pm
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I am opening this forum to discussions of the Sacred Cows and Snake Oil Topics of Audio.
The reason that I am opening this area up is that we all have a lot to learn from one another. Experience is the best teacher and we have a vast field of experiences within this group of audio crazies. What works for one person may not work for another, but discussing topics in an open and honest manner is a good way to avoid reinventing the wheel. Our failures teach us more than our successes. If we can tell each other what does work and what doesn't work then that can potentially ease the financial burden as well as the intellectual frustration involved in getting killer sound at a reasonable price. I'm not made of money and have benefited greatly from the experiences of others in my life. Time to spread it around.
A lot of these discussion points will delve into the DANGER ZONE of audio: tweaks, components, holy grail equipment, etc. Here is where we need to be very careful.
I know that this is risky and an invitation to disaster, but there needs to be a venue that provides the opportunity to discuss topics that are controversial. Notice my emphasis on the words "DISCUSS TOPICS". This means exactly what it says. We will discuss the topics at hand in a civilized manner. It is possible to do so witout name calling, your mama is so ugly that...., ad hominem attacks and so on. There will be no curse words allowed. The rules in these discussions are simple: use the same attitudes and words that you would use in a face to face discussion with someone that you respect and that you know respects you. If things get off the track, I will be watching as closely as time permits and will apply all of the Rules of Audio Circle as even handedly as possible. I am human and I expect all of you to keep me in line if need be. PM's will be used for arbitration as is the norm here at AC. Bottom line is that I expect these discussions to be self-policed by well intentioned, intelligent participants. If that is not you, then best not join into the dicussions.
Let the mirth and frivolity begin! Kill a cow.
Dave
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Good idea Dave. May cool minds prevail.
charles
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IMO the problem is that nearly everything makes a difference and there are a lot of products that offer a very low value for the money on the market. Definitely a "buyer beware" kind of market.
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One if my pet peeves is the so called tone or audiophile fuses. Is it possible to discuss them in a manner that we all can still be friend? I personally think they are snake oil and cannot improve the sound landscape one iota. Other than possibly speakers, they are not in a part of the amp, pre, or other devices topology that is directly responsible for the production of sound.
Jim
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How do you feel about power cables Jim?
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My soap box outburst is to say one issue with dicussing all these is that we each own different systems, some vastly different, and we each have different hearing, AND we each hear with all that in our own idiosyncratic way.
We each have different skills in hearing, and different areas of the sound we find most important. Areas of sound which we ignore, and areas where the tiniest change is a major event.
So basically not any two of us have any chance of hearing the same thing. PERIOD.
I am amazed anyone can even discuss all this stuff. And have to say it is a near miracle we do manage to usually be reasonably civil about it.
Then our systems can show or hide stuff and subtle changes can be hidden from one enthusiast, and plain as day to another.. all because the system just is allowing or not allowing the change to be hearable.
Then the fact some folks have a hard time accepting someone else, with that vastly different set of parameters, can hear something. Those particular folks feel if they cannot hear it, it cannot exist.
Then the problem of Double blind testing. IMO the real problem with DBT and listening to music, is the part of our brains which DOES the sort of judgement in a typical scenario of DBT, is NOT the areas of the brain which sense the subtle magic in music.
The DBT actually forces the subtle areas to be ignored. ONly a highly trained subect exposed repeatedly could fulfill the requirements. So the usual 'well any ten audiopiles in a room can do it' .. is not going to work.
Finally I hate, no dispise all the overpriced stuff based on common tweaks. Stuff which anyone 'could' make, but is repackaged and sold as if only some genius guru with divine guidance could have made, then they add in tons of psychobabble, and sell this stuff to gullible idiots. (it is true the idiots CAN hear a difference, but they pay a very high dollar price, for stuff they could have done for a few dollars.
Then the complete fantasy stuff. Teleportation tweak, 'special' bowls, Tice clocks, Shakti sticks.
My poster child hate is Shakti sticks. I cannot begin to say what a steaming pile. And if they work for the owners, man, they COULD have bought a couple of bits of lumber ,and cobbled together the same thing for ten bucks.
Then finally the close connection between wishful thinking, self fulfilling prophecies, and actually hearing a subtle difference. This is where we really start getting into arguing..
Because imagining it to be real.. well maybe that DOES make it real?
On the other hand, some stuff does work for some folks, no fantasy involved.
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How do you feel about power cables Jim?
I wouldn't go hog wild and spend big on them. I have some homebrew cables with hospital grade connectors and copper/silver braided wire. They seem to be dead silent which is a good thing.
Jim
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Well said Elizabeth :)
I wouldn't go hog wild and spend big on them. I have some homebrew cables with hospital grade connectors and copper/silver braided wire. They seem to be dead silent which is a good thing.
Jim
Thanks, do you think power cords can make a difference to the sound? (Assuming heavy enough gauge etc.)
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Well said Elizabeth :)
Thanks, do you think power cords can make a difference to the sound? (Assuming heavy enough gauge etc.)
I suppose getting clean power can't hurt, but to me it is about getting a silent/black sound floor.
Do you think a beefy power cord improves the sound?
Jim
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I'm not sure, I haven't heard a difference myself, but have only listened to power cords I made myself, and have had battery amps for the last few years (RWA Sig 30, a T amp and a Dodd amp).
I think it might be possible that they make a difference but I'm not sure how or why.
I do hear differences in speaker cables, headphone cables and interconnects, but not always. In some systems the differences are quite obvious to me though.
I asked as I wonder if power cords and fuses are in the same boat, both being in the power supply only. What do you think?
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I'm not sure, I haven't heard a difference myself, but have only listened to power cords I made myself, and have had battery amps for the last few years (RWA Sig 30, a T amp and a Dodd amp).
I think it might be possible that they make a difference but I'm not sure how or why.
I do hear differences in speaker cables, headphone cables and interconnects, but not always. In some systems the differences are quite obvious to me though.
I asked as I wonder if power cords and fuses are in the same boat, both being in the power supply only. What do you think?
My opinion about Fuses is that they are not part of the tone circuit and common sense would say that they cannot improve the sound. Maybe it would be a good one for a blind test. However, it would be hard to disguise them.
I can make power cords, cannot make fuses. I agree about IC's and Speaker Cables, they do make a difference, but again, I wouldn't spend crazy on them. I do have some AQ Gibralter's, but I got them used...
Jim
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IMO the problem is that nearly everything makes a difference and there are a lot of products that offer a very low value for the money on the market. Definitely a "buyer beware" kind of market.
My premise is that everything effects everything else. It is simply to what extent. Is it different or is it better? Is it worth it or is it not? These are highly sensitive and individual judgements. Elizabeth got it right about DBT. When the testing is a stressor involving perception and enjoyment there are problems with the methodologies.
One of the purposes of these threads is about is getting some peer reviews going in a manner that is understandable, credible and repeatable. Beyond that it is definitely buyer beware. It is meant to be fun and games, not religion. The bottom line is that all of this is about the enhanced enjoyment of music as an art, not finger pointing and flames.
Dave
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Elizabeth,
You got dangerously close to saying which I believe needs to be stated, simply because it is fact. Our ears may do the sensing, but we listen with our brains. Furthermore, our brains create our experience out of more than the simple, sensory data. This makes our perception circumspect, but it is not indicative of a shortcoming – much to the contrary! It is an inescapable reality, but I do not mention it as a means to nay-say those things about which I am skeptical. I merely think that it needs to be acknowledged. In this light, differences of experience may rest upon the influence of differing beliefs.
You are also onto another truth. The simple act of rendering a judgment, especially one which is articulated, alters the manner in which we perceive. It is a well documented phenomenon in cognitive science – one that has been witnessed via fMRI. Neuroscience is shedding more and more light on this fascinating topic.
Even the craziest 'tweak' (which may be proven to do absolutely nothing) can have a profound influence on our experience – or not. It is not my place to tell another what he/she experiences, but I am certain some improvements/changes are illusory – a fact which makes them no less real for those who experience them (and I am, by no means, suggesting that I am immune).
It would be great if this area of discussion which Dave is opening could be navigated with rationality and respect – time will tell (but history suggests otherwise). The concept is commendable, but it's a complex topic situated on a slippery slope.
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Kevin:
I'm going to be optimistic and hope this discussion stays the course!
Jim
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My opinion about Fuses is that they are not part of the tone circuit and common sense would say that they cannot improve the sound. Maybe it would be a good one for a blind test. However, it would be hard to disguise them.
I can make power cords, cannot make fuses. I agree about IC's and Speaker Cables, they do make a difference, but again, I wouldn't spend crazy on them. I do have some AQ Gibralter's, but I got them used...
Jim
I don't know about fuses working or not but I agree with trying them in a blond test and with not spending crazy money unless you have plenty to spare. :thumb:
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To comment on powercords. My own experience had been I made some cords ,and no difference. Bought a few cheaper aftermarket ones, no difference.
Then i bought a Pangea (when they first came out, they were pretty low priced) for my amplifier. wow i could hear a difference immediately. More bass.
So that was interesting. I eventually added all pangea cords, as they were not too expensive, and actually did stuff i could hear.
I am happy.
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I'm going to fess up - my name is Michael, and I'm an audioholic. I have tried many tweaks over the years. Some have clearly made a difference (for the better ;-). Others not so much. Some were just stupid. I like to think I apply sound reasoning and intelligence to my choices. BUT (warning: confession on the way), I willingly try various tweaks because it keeps my love and interest in this hobby going -- most of the time without a major financial investment. I know, I know... it's all about the music and of course it is. But the mindset of an audiophile is not just to sit and listen to music (blasphemy!). For many (or so it seems) it includes continuously striving to improve the sound. I mean, how many of us claim our system sounds better than ever, and then just a few days/weeks/months later, we're off trying something else.
Einstein was quoted as saying that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So we're either all insane -- and a case can be made for that -- or in fact, we do stumble across something that makes a significant improvement just often enough to keep us on the lookout for the next. And so it goes...
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I'm going to fess up - my name is Michael, and I'm an audioholic. I have tried many tweaks over the years. Some have clearly made a difference (for the better ;-). Others not so much. Some were just stupid. I like to think I apply sound reasoning and intelligence to my choices. BUT (warning: confession on the way), I willingly try various tweaks because it keeps my love and interest in this hobby going -- most of the time without a major financial investment. I know, I know... it's all about the music and of course it is. But the mindset of an audiophile is not just to sit and listen to music (blasphemy!). For many (or so it seems) it includes continuously striving to improve the sound. I mean, how many of us claim our system sounds better than ever, and then just a few days/weeks/months later, we're off trying something else.
Einstein was quoted as saying that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So we're either all insane -- and a case can be made for that -- or in fact, we do stumble across something that makes a significant improvement just often enough to keep us on the lookout for the next. And so it goes...
and we all said: "Hi, Mike"
There has to be a 12 step for us. I'm still looking and I'm having a hard time getting past step 2 - the fun part. 8)
Have a Merry Christmas!
Dave
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Twelve steps.... Twelve days of Christmas... a coincidence? I think not. Bring on the 12 Tweaks of Christmas!
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Twelve steps.... Twelve days of Christmas... a coincidence? I think not. Bring on the 12 Tweaks of Christmas!
:thumb:
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I don't know about fuses working or not but I agree with trying them in a blond test
Huh... so what's the protocol for that exactly? ;)
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Huh... so what's the protocol for that exactly? ;)
First you have to determine if they are a natural blonde and proceed accordingly. :o
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Huh... so what's the protocol for that exactly? ;)
I know it looks like a made a typo, but that's because I did :P
I'm not aware of any way to test for audible differences in audio equipment by using blondes sadly. :lol:
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I know it looks like a made a typo, but that's because I did :P
I'm not aware of any way to test for audible differences in audio equipment by using blondes sadly. :lol:
Then it is up to you to come up with the methodology. You may have to go through a few blondes to figure it out, but that is your problem. I might suggest a good bottle of wine and dim lights as part of the process.
Wow, is this ever off track!!! That's Ok. That is why we are here, eh? :thumb:
Dave
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:lol: :lol: :lol:
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The double blond test is quite simple really.
You have two attractive blond ladies whispering sweet nothings in each ear while you try to determine if you can hear any difference between various components.
In fact, if you can hear anything at all other than the sweet whispering's; you should consider the component a keeper!
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The double blond test is quite simple really.
You have two attractive blond ladies whispering sweet nothings in each ear while you try to determine if you can hear any difference between various components.
In fact, if you can hear anything at all other than the sweet whispering's; you should consider the component a keeper!
Zach, have you read the disclaimer on the double blonde test?
" Do not attempt the double blonde test if you are over age 60. Failure to do so may result in broken parts, incessant drooling, insanity or coma!"
Bummer.
Dave
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Okay then, what about a single redhead test?
Jim
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LOL! :thumb:
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Then we'll need to know about cryoing either two blonds and a red head.
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Then we'll need to know about cryoing either two blonds and a red head.
Dude! That's COLD...........
:green:
Dave
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I'm glad that I didn't mention brunettes 8)
Jim
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Blind testing has its merits and issues as well. Pressure to decide being the main issue. Lets look at blind testing in a different way. First the question of why ? Second, Does it really matter ? Third, If perception of the beholder is the most important issue why do we need proof of our perception ? Is not what we perceive the only thing that matters ?
Chew on that awhile.
charles
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I'm glad that I didn't mention brunettes 8)
Jim
Hi guys,
This is truly funny. now to get serious.
When I had my BNK 140 amp, I managed to blow out a couple of speaker fuses. I noticed one day having replaced both left and right sides, that somehow the image changed. Now you can believe me or not, but the fuses are all made slightly different. Some look like stretched out springs, while others are just straight wires. Now, I admit I don't remember which was better, but there was a definite difference in the sound depending on how the fuse was made internally.
I've lost a lot of my hearing, so those days are over. But other stuff like putting a material different than the one that comes with a metal box will make a difference there. Like putting some form of matting, or steel and glass together will help diffuse sound. There was quite a discussion when the promitheus TVC were the rage about putting matting on the transformers. It did work.
And then there is the question of breakin time. Stuff like cables and speakers need time to break in. Why, ... if the snakeoil reasoning is correct, it's aligning molecues so they flow in the same direction. Ask Charles about his Rad Shack cables. He can tell you all about them. Anyway, enough for now.
Ray Bronk
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My opinion about Fuses is that they are not part of the tone circuit and common sense would say that they cannot improve the sound. Maybe it would be a good one for a blind test. However, it would be hard to disguise them.
I can make power cords, cannot make fuses. I agree about IC's and Speaker Cables, they do make a difference, but again, I wouldn't spend crazy on them. I do have some AQ Gibralter's, but I got them used...
Jim
I've tried many power cords, expensive, inexpensive, proprietary construction, different metals and materials. There are so many on the market today, that it's possible to get three in a row that are mediocre sounding or even bad sounding. then the opposite may happen, three very good ones with the third one being a little bright.
With that said, I get the best results from audio gear by selecting power cords, interconnects, and power conditioning ( one of them is the UberBuss ). These three are above all the tweeks I have tried, which range from an OK improvement to absolute fraud and false advertisement. I won't mention any companies right now, but you can ask.
Regarding the "good" ones (tweeks), ALL of them make a Small difference for the better. Which brings me to specialty fuses. I hated to do it, but I bought five different brands of audiophile fuses. To make a long story short, they change the sound similar to power cords ( from worse to mediocre to good ), but affect the sound about half as much or less.
So I would say forget the fuses and dial your system in with cables and power conditioners. If you insist on special fuses, Acme sells cryoed ones for a low price, and PS Audio a jump higher.
Two tweeks I haven't tried, and therefore cannot say how well they work, are the Stein Harmonizers and the IPC Proton alignment products. They both get good reviews but will cost a minimum of $4K to get "started".
Best of luck, and fun !
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Near free/cheap tweaks I like and use...
Amp stand: Concrete patio block 20" by 20" or so.. I use size 10 chemical butyl rubber bottle stoppers under it (and bring the powercord under it too) Then half dome sorbothane between the feet of my amp and the concrete surface.
Most of my equipment uses the #10 Butyl bottle stoppers.. Locally from American Science & Surplus (though they are NOT in the catalog. $1.25 each.. I must own five dozen of them..
The same sort of approach for my turntables.. On the shelf I place several 2" tall 5" diameter round patio bricks (with a rubber pad under them) and more #10 bottle stoppers then the shelf with the TT resting in that assembly. Both my Rega P5 and Kuzma Stabi/Stogi S are set up like that.
I use plenty of small baggies filles with 'treated' quartz crystals. (the treatment is ANY product which can permanently coat the crystals with a non-conductive thin coating. I used automotive dielectric grease Others use all sorts of techniques... but the idea is the same)
Placing the baggies around A/C stuff. Like plugs.. The cyrstals if properly trreated soak up the RFI EMI.. (Using a "Non-contact A/C voltage detector like GreenLee $22 from Amazon allows one to find leaking RFI EMI and block it. PS: The GreenLee was the better of the cheap detectors)
I spent a lot on 15 pounds of small crystal bits from eBay So this cost me over $100. But even a few 1/2 pound assortment will let one try the effect. As long as it is quartz..
The effect cleans up the sound a tiny bit.. So it is not very cost effective.. but fun to play with.
The teflon plumbers tape on the blades of all A/C plugs: wrap the tape say five turns around base of blades. Allow pushing in the plug to crush the teflon to the base. Seems to seal the plug to the wall, reduces vibtation, and from my experience slightly reduces power consumption.. yeah yeah I have no idea why.. All I can say is it does reduce a few %. I stuck the teflon on every plug in my possession. lights, frig, besides audio equipment.
The pigtail tweak. many names for sticking a short bit of metal on the negative terminal of the amp. The metal is not connecteed to anything at the far end. Some are short bits, some long.. A whole pile of variations.. but the one common factor is some metal added to the negative terrminal. I made some devices with ferrite and silver plated copper which look a bit like mushrooms for mine. I have them at the amp and the speaker end. Plus one on my headphone amp output.
Lifting cables off the floor. i currently use a few blocks of wood i had laying around. But had used empty toilet paper tubes to good effect. Free. the tubes are scrap. For my 7 meter pre to amp IC i have woven a cotton rope around and through to hold the wires a bit away from whatever they are wandering through.
Using Deoxit. Main thing is to wipe it off some. It only needs a molecular coating. not a dribble.. Most problems with Deoxit or Tweek were due to leaving way too much on the surfaces treated.
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The 'American Science & Surplus' store in Milwaukee (not all that far from the speedskating ice rink) is an interesting place. But they have too much fun in their catalog and not enough facts.
'American Science & Surplus'
http://www.sciplus.com/
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By cutting these into discs of various measurements, I've successfully used these high-density, foam pool noodles in various applications such as: footers, isolation devices, padding, baffling and damping, etc. Really cheap, easy to work with and colorful... although I find a way to hide them, so that audiophiles will still take me seriously. :o
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=82397)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=82398)
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Here is a tweak that might work. Don't believe "hype" about products. When an AC member wets his pants over his new speakers or amp, he's just a kid with a new toy and hyper excited. Also when the manufacturer states his/ her product is better than everyone elses, his head is too big. We have encountered and been a part of this. Best to listen yourself, learn, and take it slow. Unless you have bundles of cash to burn through...
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When it comes to system improvements, it is a case of diminishing returns. There are basic improvements in equipment (pre-amp, amp, cd, DAC, speakers, power supply etc.) that will improve the sound quality over basic, mass market audio equipment. You can certainly see improvements of 5-10% or more over the mass market stuff. A good example are inter-connects. A base Morrow cable is way better than a Radio Shack cable for example. But when you start going up from there, the improvement starts decreasing rapidly. The next step up might gain you another 2-3% improvement. The next step after that maybe 2% and so on until you are in the thousands and the gains are like .5 %. The same goes for stereo equipment as well. How much better can you make a Class A, gold and silver plated w/Russian tubes amp than an amp that is Class A, gold and silver plated with Russian tubes? I bring this up as I read a test between a set of 5K interconnects and a set of 10K interconnects in Audiophile. The reviewers, who are no stranger to high end audio equipment, half could tell no difference and half could perceive some improvement. Is spending the extra 5K worth it?
So the point of my rant is; that some basic improvements to your equipment will yield some significant improvements in sound quality. But once you go over that cost equals better mark as previously noted in other posts, you are just wasting your money. I know some people feel that spending that last dollar will yield vast improvements, but in most cases not. And as noted in previous posts, hearing is subjective.