[dBe]

I am opening this forum to discussions of the Sacred Cows and Snake Oil Topics of Audio.

The reason that I am opening this area up is that we all have a lot to learn from one another.  Experience is the best teacher and we have a vast field of experiences within this group of audio crazies.  What works for one person may not work for another, but discussing topics in an open and honest manner is a good way to avoid reinventing the wheel.  Our failures teach us more than our successes.  If we can tell each other what does work and what doesn't work then that can potentially ease the financial burden as well as the intellectual frustration involved in getting killer sound at a reasonable price.  I'm not made of money and have benefited greatly from the experiences of others in my life.  Time to spread it around.

A lot of these discussion points will delve into the DANGER ZONE of audio: tweaks, components, holy grail equipment, etc.  Here is where we need to be very careful.

I know that this is risky and an invitation to disaster, but there needs to be a venue that provides the opportunity to discuss topics that are controversial.  Notice my emphasis on the words "DISCUSS TOPICS".  This means exactly what it says.  We will discuss the topics at hand in a civilized manner.  It is possible to do so witout name calling, your mama is so ugly that...., ad hominem attacks and so on.  There will be no curse words allowed.  The rules in these discussions are simple:  use the same attitudes and words that you would use in a face to face discussion with someone that you respect and that you know respects you.  If things get off the track, I will be watching as closely as time permits and will apply all of the Rules of Audio Circle as even handedly as possible.  I am human and I expect all of you to keep me in line if need be.  PM's will be used for arbitration as is the norm here at AC.  Bottom line is that I expect these discussions to be self-policed by well intentioned, intelligent participants.  If that is not you, then best not join into the dicussions.

Let the mirth and frivolity begin!  Kill a cow.

Dave

[rollo]

   Good idea Dave. May cool minds prevail.


charles

[DaveC113]

IMO the problem is that nearly everything makes a difference and there are a lot of products that offer a very low value for the money on the market. Definitely a "buyer beware" kind of market.

[medium jim]

One if my pet peeves is the so called tone or audiophile fuses.  Is it possible to discuss them in a manner that we all can still be friend?  I personally think they are snake oil and cannot improve the sound landscape one iota.  Other than possibly speakers, they are not in a part of the amp, pre, or other devices topology that is directly responsible for the production of sound. 

Jim

[stevenkelby]

How do you feel about power cables Jim?

[Elizabeth]

My soap box outburst is to say one issue with dicussing all these is that we each own different systems, some vastly different, and we each have different hearing, AND we each hear with all that in our own idiosyncratic way.
We each have different skills in hearing, and different areas of the sound we find most important. Areas of sound which we ignore, and areas where the tiniest change is a major event.
So basically not any two of us have any chance of hearing  the same thing. PERIOD.
I am amazed anyone can even discuss all this stuff. And have to say it is a near miracle we do manage to usually be reasonably civil about it.

Then our systems can show or hide stuff and subtle changes can be hidden from one enthusiast, and plain as day to another.. all because the system just is allowing or not allowing  the change to be hearable.

Then the fact some folks have a hard time accepting someone else, with that vastly different set of parameters, can hear something. Those particular folks feel if they cannot hear it, it cannot exist.

Then the problem of Double blind testing. IMO the real problem with DBT and listening to music, is the part of our brains which DOES the sort of judgement in a typical scenario of DBT, is NOT the areas of the brain which sense the subtle magic in music.
The DBT actually forces the subtle areas to be ignored. ONly a highly trained subect exposed repeatedly could fulfill the requirements. So the usual 'well any ten audiopiles in a room can do it' .. is not going to work.

Finally I hate, no dispise all the overpriced stuff based on common tweaks. Stuff which anyone 'could' make, but is repackaged and sold as if only some genius guru with divine guidance could have made, then they add in tons of psychobabble, and sell this stuff to gullible idiots. (it is true the idiots CAN hear a difference, but they pay a very high dollar price, for stuff they could have done for a few dollars.
Then the complete fantasy stuff. Teleportation tweak, 'special' bowls, Tice clocks, Shakti sticks.
My poster child hate is Shakti sticks. I cannot begin to say what a steaming pile. And if they work for the owners, man, they COULD have bought a couple of bits of lumber ,and cobbled together the same thing for ten bucks.
Then finally the close connection between wishful thinking, self fulfilling prophecies, and actually hearing a subtle difference. This is where we really start getting into arguing..
Because imagining it to be real.. well maybe that DOES make it real?
On the other hand, some stuff does work for some folks, no fantasy involved.

[medium jim]

How do you feel about power cables Jim?

I wouldn't go hog wild and spend big on them.  I have some homebrew cables with hospital grade connectors and copper/silver braided wire.  They seem to be dead silent which is a good thing. 

Jim

[stevenkelby]

Well said Elizabeth

I wouldn't go hog wild and spend big on them.  I have some homebrew cables with hospital grade connectors and copper/silver braided wire.  They seem to be dead silent which is a good thing. 

Jim

Thanks, do you think power cords can make a difference to the sound? (Assuming heavy enough gauge etc.)

[medium jim]

Well said Elizabeth

Thanks, do you think power cords can make a difference to the sound? (Assuming heavy enough gauge etc.)

I suppose getting clean power can't hurt, but to me it is about getting a silent/black sound floor. 

Do you think a beefy power cord improves the sound?

Jim

[stevenkelby]

I'm not sure, I haven't heard a difference myself, but have only listened to power cords I made myself, and have had battery amps for the last few years (RWA Sig 30, a T amp and a Dodd amp).

I think it might be possible that they make a difference but I'm not sure how or why.

I do hear differences in speaker cables, headphone cables and interconnects, but not always. In some systems the differences are quite obvious to me though.

I asked as I wonder if power cords and fuses are in the same boat, both being in the power supply only. What do you think?

[medium jim]

I'm not sure, I haven't heard a difference myself, but have only listened to power cords I made myself, and have had battery amps for the last few years (RWA Sig 30, a T amp and a Dodd amp).

I think it might be possible that they make a difference but I'm not sure how or why.

I do hear differences in speaker cables, headphone cables and interconnects, but not always. In some systems the differences are quite obvious to me though.

I asked as I wonder if power cords and fuses are in the same boat, both being in the power supply only. What do you think?

My opinion about Fuses is that they are not part of the tone circuit and common sense would say that they cannot improve the sound.  Maybe it would be a good one for a blind test.  However, it would be hard to disguise them. 

I can make power cords, cannot make fuses.   I agree about IC's and Speaker Cables, they do make a difference, but again, I wouldn't spend crazy on them. I do have some AQ Gibralter's, but I got them used...

Jim

[dBe]

IMO the problem is that nearly everything makes a difference and there are a lot of products that offer a very low value for the money on the market. Definitely a "buyer beware" kind of market.

My premise is that everything effects everything else.  It is simply to what extent.  Is it different or is it better?  Is it worth it or is it not?  These are highly sensitive and individual judgements.  Elizabeth got it right about DBT.  When the testing is a stressor involving perception and enjoyment there are problems with the methodologies.

One of the purposes of these threads is about is getting some peer reviews going in a manner that is understandable, credible and repeatable.  Beyond that it is definitely buyer beware.  It is meant to be fun and games, not religion.  The bottom line is that all of this is about the enhanced enjoyment of music as an art, not finger pointing and flames.

Dave

[kevin360]

Elizabeth,

You got dangerously close to saying which I believe needs to be stated, simply because it is fact. Our ears may do the sensing, but we listen with our brains. Furthermore, our brains create our experience out of more than the simple, sensory data. This makes our perception circumspect, but it is not indicative of a shortcoming – much to the contrary! It is an inescapable reality, but I do not mention it as a means to nay-say those things about which I am skeptical. I merely think that it needs to be acknowledged. In this light, differences of experience may rest upon the influence of differing beliefs.

You are also onto another truth. The simple act of rendering a judgment, especially one which is articulated, alters the manner in which we perceive. It is a well documented phenomenon in cognitive science – one that has been witnessed via fMRI. Neuroscience is shedding more and more light on this fascinating topic.

Even the craziest 'tweak' (which may be proven to do absolutely nothing) can have a profound influence on our experience – or not. It is not my place to tell another what he/she experiences, but I am certain some improvements/changes are illusory – a fact which makes them no less real for those who experience them (and I am, by no means, suggesting that I am immune).

It would be great if this area of discussion which Dave is opening could be navigated with rationality and respect – time will tell (but history suggests otherwise). The concept is commendable, but it's a complex topic situated on a slippery slope.

[medium jim]

Kevin:

I'm going to be optimistic and hope this discussion stays the course!

Jim

[stevenkelby]

My opinion about Fuses is that they are not part of the tone circuit and common sense would say that they cannot improve the sound.  Maybe it would be a good one for a blind test.  However, it would be hard to disguise them. 

I can make power cords, cannot make fuses.   I agree about IC's and Speaker Cables, they do make a difference, but again, I wouldn't spend crazy on them. I do have some AQ Gibralter's, but I got them used...

Jim

I don't know about fuses working or not but I agree with trying them in a blond test and with not spending crazy money unless you have plenty to spare. 

[Elizabeth]

To comment on powercords. My own experience had been I made some cords ,and no difference. Bought a few cheaper aftermarket ones, no difference.
Then i bought a Pangea (when they first came out, they were pretty low priced)  for my amplifier. wow i could hear a difference immediately. More bass.
So that was interesting. I eventually added all pangea cords, as they were not too expensive, and actually did stuff  i could hear.
I am happy.

[mdconnelly]

I'm going to fess up - my name is Michael, and I'm an audioholic.   I have tried many tweaks over the years.   Some have clearly made a difference (for the better .   Others not so much.  Some were just stupid.   I like to think I apply sound reasoning and intelligence to my choices.  BUT (warning: confession on the way), I willingly try various tweaks because it keeps my love and interest in this hobby going -- most of the time without a major financial investment.   I know, I know... it's all about the music and of course it is.  But the mindset of an audiophile is not just to sit and listen to music (blasphemy!).  For many (or so it seems) it includes continuously striving to improve the sound.    I mean, how many of us claim our system sounds better than ever, and then just a few days/weeks/months later, we're off trying something else. 

Einstein was quoted as saying that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.   So we're either all insane -- and a case can be made for that -- or in fact, we do stumble across something that makes a significant improvement just often enough to keep us on the lookout for the next.  And so it goes...

[dBe]

I'm going to fess up - my name is Michael, and I'm an audioholic.   I have tried many tweaks over the years.   Some have clearly made a difference (for the better .   Others not so much.  Some were just stupid.   I like to think I apply sound reasoning and intelligence to my choices.  BUT (warning: confession on the way), I willingly try various tweaks because it keeps my love and interest in this hobby going -- most of the time without a major financial investment.   I know, I know... it's all about the music and of course it is.  But the mindset of an audiophile is not just to sit and listen to music (blasphemy!).  For many (or so it seems) it includes continuously striving to improve the sound.    I mean, how many of us claim our system sounds better than ever, and then just a few days/weeks/months later, we're off trying something else. 

Einstein was quoted as saying that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.   So we're either all insane -- and a case can be made for that -- or in fact, we do stumble across something that makes a significant improvement just often enough to keep us on the lookout for the next.  And so it goes...

and we all said: "Hi, Mike"

There has to be a 12 step for us.  I'm still looking and I'm having a hard time getting past step 2 - the fun part.   

Have a Merry Christmas!

Dave

[mdconnelly]

Twelve steps.... Twelve days of Christmas... a coincidence?  I think not.   Bring on the 12 Tweaks of Christmas!

[dBe]

Twelve steps.... Twelve days of Christmas... a coincidence?  I think not.   Bring on the 12 Tweaks of Christmas!