GR Research Power Cords

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Cheytak.408

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #40 on: 30 Jul 2021, 05:11 pm »
That would be assuming that every device plugged into the line conditioner would be drawing the same amount of power. You could easily have 2 powerful amps plugged into one receptacle while you have extremely low power devices (DAC, streamer, turntable, etc) plugged into other receptacles.
Once again: 14ga in a short chassis wiring run = 32A. Even 12ga 20A house wiring circuits are only rated for transmission at 9.3A.  It is the balance of resistance based power loss and heating that drive the ratings and capabilities.  A 1' long piece of 14ga wire has a resistance of 0.0025 ohms.  12ga - 0.0016 ohms.  That difference of 0.0009 ohms doesn't mean very much in application.

If you closely examine printed circuit boards in a lot of very expensive commercial power filtration products the power traces are much smaller than the hard wiring in some others.  It is all about what is necessary to carry the necessary current for the anticipated applications.  This is one of the reasons that many amplifier manufacturers recommend not using conditioners with their amps.

77SunsetStrip

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #41 on: 30 Jul 2021, 06:19 pm »
Galen Gareis, retired Belden engineer, designed the best possible signal conductor (speaker cables) based 100% on science.  Accuracy of signal transmission, nothing added - nothing removed, was the primary goal. The math, science, and physics involved are undeniable proof that signal transmission in wire is not simple nor identical between different configurations or material.   

A similar purely scientific approach can be applied to produce the best possible power cable.  The user is left to decide if there is audible difference.       

Stephen Scharf

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #42 on: 30 Jul 2021, 08:40 pm »
That would be assuming that every device plugged into the line conditioner would be drawing the same amount of power. You could easily have 2 powerful amps plugged into one receptacle while you have extremely low power devices (DAC, streamer, turntable, etc) plugged into other receptacles.

It depends on the design and engineering in the power distributor. The power distributor I use has 4 sets X 2 (duplex) AC receptacles each, for a total of 8 receptacles. Each individual receptacle within the duplex will deliver the specified rated power of the distributor.

Once again: 14ga in a short chassis wiring run = 32A. Even 12ga 20A house wiring circuits are only rated for transmission at 9.3A.  It is the balance of resistance based power loss and heating that drive the ratings and capabilities.  A 1' long piece of 14ga wire has a resistance of 0.0025 ohms.  12ga - 0.0016 ohms.  That difference of 0.0009 ohms doesn't mean very much in application.

If you closely examine printed circuit boards in a lot of very expensive commercial power filtration products the power traces are much smaller than the hard wiring in some others.  It is all about what is necessary to carry the necessary current for the anticipated applications.  This is one of the reasons that many amplifier manufacturers recommend not using conditioners with their amps.

Good post, Cheytak. You're correct that many amp manufacturers recommend not using power conditioners for their amps because many of these use chokes, inductors, or coils to reduce noise from the AC mains. But, using power distributors/conditioners with these classes of components to reduce AC noise with amps more often than not will also reduce dynamic transient current delivery as well as well as making them sound dark, compressed, and lifeless without good transient response and immediacy. When using a system with these types of line conditioners, I'd agree it's best practice to go straight to the wall for amps. 

I'll  add, though, there are high-end power distributors that can reduce noise components on the AC mains without utilizing chokes, inductors, or coils (you can probably surmise whom I'm referring to here) and thus are fully capable of delivering the necessary current for their respective applications, including amplifers and NOT have them sound dark, compressed, lifeless, and lacking in dynamics, transient response, and immediacy.
Cheers, mate.

rtate

Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #43 on: 30 Jul 2021, 09:13 pm »
I'm not so sure about the "instantaneous current " demand statements .
The current demand by any device would be limited by the smallest wire gauge in the line. i.e. the 14 gauge wire from the breaker panel to the receptacle.
If all contact points are good meaning the receptacles then all the power cord can do is filter, or reduce noise in the AC.
Back to the water analogy if you have a 6 inch supply hose and a 1/2 inch nozzle at the end you can only get what the 1/2 inch nozzle can supply. Conversely is you have a 14 gauge wire supplying a 10 gauge power cord you are limited to what current the 14 gauge wire can supply. That's just physics.
Having said this I do believe power cords make a difference by reducing noise, not by supplying more current.

Stephen Scharf

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #44 on: 30 Jul 2021, 09:22 pm »
Galen Gareis, retired Belden engineer, designed the best possible signal conductor (speaker cables) based 100% on science.  Accuracy of signal transmission, nothing added - nothing removed, was the primary goal. The math, science, and physics involved are undeniable proof that signal transmission in wire is not simple nor identical between different configurations or material.     

Yep, Galen is a solid engineer and his cable designs are based on sound engineering principles. He's published a series of white papers on important aspects of cable design and the information in these is accurate and informative.

Something that his speaker cables don't address, though, is the impact of "reflections" of the EM wave that propogates along the cable which carries the signal.

I'll just digress for a moment here. Many folks think that in a signal cable, e.g. a speaker cable, that current is carried by electrons in the conductor material much like water flowing through a hose or marbles rolling in a tube, etc. This is not the case at all. The signal is carried by a hypotrochoid EM wave that propogates along the conductor. This Vp, propogation velocity is different for different frequencies. This means that signals at different frequencies, which is what we have in audio applications for reproducing music, will propogate at different velocities at and will arrive at the end of the cable...at different times. Moreover, these EM waves can reflect back along the conductor and interact with the EM wave coming "downstream", and much like water waves in a pool, cause summations (a higher peak wave) and cancellations (a null, or lower-peak  wave) of the EM wave which will impact the both the timing and the quality of signal from the source. These EM wave "reflections" are measurable using a time-domain reflectometer, and, importantly, the effect of them is audible, including their impact on timing.

Note: If folks want to read Galen's white papers, send me a PM and I will send a link to them. I don't want to derail the discussion by posting active links to other manufacturers in this thread.
« Last Edit: 31 Jul 2021, 06:14 am by Stephen Scharf »

Stephen Scharf

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #45 on: 30 Jul 2021, 09:24 pm »
I'm not so sure about the "instantaneous current " demand statements .
The current demand by any device would be limited by the smallest wire gauge in the line. i.e. the 14 gauge wire from the breaker panel to the receptacle.
If all contact points are good meaning the receptacles then all the power cord can do is filter, or reduce noise in the AC.
Back to the water analogy if you have a 6 inch supply hose and a 1/2 inch nozzle at the end you can only get what the 1/2 inch nozzle can supply. Conversely is you have a 14 gauge wire supplying a 10 gauge power cord you are limited to what current the 14 gauge wire can supply. That's just physics.
Having said this I do believe power cords make a difference by reducing noise, not by supplying more current.

No, sorry, it is not like water flowing through a hose. It is an EM wave that propogates along the conductor.

While both capabilities, current delivery and noise reduction are important, the ability of a power cord to deliver current is the more important functional attribute, more so than reducing noise. Power cables that deliver noise reduction at the expense of dynamic transient current delivery can be "quiet", but they sound dull and lifeless in listening tests compared to power cords that provide maximal dynamic transient current delivery. Moreover, dynamic transient current delivery is measurable; if you would like a reference documenting this, send me a PM, and I will provide you with a link to a white paper with data.

Moreover, the geometry of the conductors in the cable construction also have a very significant impact on the ability of the power cable to deliver dynamic transient current.

jbl

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #46 on: 30 Jul 2021, 10:21 pm »
Does this mean a shorter power cord could offer better sound since the resistance to instantaneous current would be less traveling a shorter distance?

corndog71

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #47 on: 30 Jul 2021, 10:39 pm »
I don’t remember the various sources I got this from but basically to reduce reflections just use a longer cable.  For example some recommend minimum 8’ for speaker cables.  Coax digital cables should be min 1.5m.  Etc.

subsonic1050

Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #48 on: 30 Jul 2021, 11:08 pm »
No, sorry, it is not like water flowing through a hose. It is an EM wave that propogates along the conductor.

While both capabilities, current delivery and noise reduction are important, the ability of a power cord to deliver current is the more important functional attribute, more so than reducing noise. Power cables that deliver noise reduction at the expense of dynamic transient current delivery can be "quiet", but they sound dull and lifeless in listening tests compared to power cords that provide maximal dynamic transient current delivery. Moreover, dynamic transient current delivery is measurable; if you would like a reference documenting this, send me a PM, and I will provide you with a link to a white paper with data.

Moreover, the geometry of the conductors in the cable construction also have a very significant impact on the ability of the power cable to deliver dynamic transient current.

Yes, it IS like water flowing through a pipe. This is not some off the cuff analogy - this is an analogy used by many educational institutions to teach basic electronics in an effort to help visualize and understand the flow of electricity. Like any analogy, it of course has its limitations - but it IS very similar.

Frankly, I'm really tired of you. I'd appreciate it if you'd refrain from responding to any of my posts and I'll certainly refrain from engaging with you any further. Have a good day.

Cheytak.408

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #49 on: 31 Jul 2021, 12:22 am »
Yes, it IS like water flowing through a pipe. This is not some off the cuff analogy - this is an analogy used by many educational institutions to teach basic electronics in an effort to help visualize and understand the flow of electricity. Like any analogy, it of course has its limitations - but it IS very similar.

Frankly, I'm really tired of you. I'd appreciate it if you'd refrain from responding to any of my posts and I'll certainly refrain from engaging with you any further. Have a good day.
That analogy is used to make a general statement.  The electron flow concept of current was disproven many years ago.  It is actually an electromagnetic wave that does the work.  Electrons do not "flow" like water, but actually are nudged into each other.  This is called electron drift.  Drift velocity, the average speed at which electrons travel in a conductor when subjected to an electric field, is about 1mm per second.  It’s the electromagnetic wave rippling through the electrons that propagates at close to the speed of light.  The dimensions of the wire and electrical properties like its inductance affect the exact propagation speed, but usually it will be around 90 per cent of the speed of light – about 270,000 km/s.  The speed at which 120 VAC 60 Hz current flows is actually quite slow:

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/electron-drift-velocity-problem.707975/

Cheytak.408

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #50 on: 31 Jul 2021, 12:23 am »
Duplicate post... my bad!

subsonic1050

Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #51 on: 31 Jul 2021, 12:57 am »
That analogy is used to make a general statement.  The electron flow concept of current was disproven many years ago.  It is actually an electromagnetic wave that does the work.  Electrons do not "flow" like water, but actually are nudged into each other.  This is called electron drift.  Drift velocity, the average speed at which electrons travel in a conductor when subjected to an electric field, is about 1mm per second.  It’s the electromagnetic wave rippling through the electrons that propagates at close to the speed of light.  The dimensions of the wire and electrical properties like its inductance affect the exact propagation speed, but usually it will be around 90 per cent of the speed of light – about 270,000 km/s.  The speed at which 120 VAC 60 Hz current flows is actually quite slow:

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/electron-drift-velocity-problem.707975/

Cheytak- I fully accept that the analogy doesn't hold up when looking at the intricacies of electron transmission. It is however commonly used to illustrate the general idea of electrical flow, going so far as to include concepts like amperage, voltage, resistance, etc. You clearly have an understanding of electronics beyond my own knowledge and I appreciate the insight you can bring. I am however, tired of snarky and patronizing posts claiming to *know* exactly why and how cables impart different sonic characteristics. The fact is that we don't know for sure - there are experts in electrical transmission who say that differences in speaker cables do not matter so long as the resistance, capacitance and inductance measurements are the same or similar. Real world listening reveals that simply isn't the case. You have been respectful and knowledgeable and I thank you for your input. Also, by the way, the 408 is probably my favorite round of all time - despite the fact I've never fired a single round myself.

Cheytak.408

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #52 on: 31 Jul 2021, 02:48 am »
Cheytak- I fully accept that the analogy doesn't hold up when looking at the intricacies of electron transmission. It is however commonly used to illustrate the general idea of electrical flow, going so far as to include concepts like amperage, voltage, resistance, etc. You clearly have an understanding of electronics beyond my own knowledge and I appreciate the insight you can bring. I am however, tired of snarky and patronizing posts claiming to *know* exactly why and how cables impart different sonic characteristics. The fact is that we don't know for sure - there are experts in electrical transmission who say that differences in speaker cables do not matter so long as the resistance, capacitance and inductance measurements are the same or similar. Real world listening reveals that simply isn't the case. You have been respectful and knowledgeable and I thank you for your input. Also, by the way, the 408 is probably my favorite round of all time - despite the fact I've never fired a single round myself.
Thanks.  I do appreciate it that you understand my positioning in this thread.  I'm just trying to keep it on the rails here within reason.

The sound of cabling is much more complex than the old "R, L, C explains everything" argument.  There are about a dozen different parameters that determine the basics of cable sonics.  That includes the elusive FM (freaking magic) aspect.   I've been in the technical field of cable characteristics for many years and I'll be the first to admit that occasionally results simply defy final estimates, especially in the GHz realm, but we are getting closer to understanding the quantum realities that effect wire, cable, metallurgy, geometry and dielectrics in use.

The .408 is an astonishing performer.  But, it is insanely expensive to shoot and the recoil is punishing because the rifle is so light compared to a Barrett BMG.  A 6.5 Creedmore is a lot more fun to shoot.

corndog71

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #53 on: 31 Jul 2021, 03:22 am »
In Galen’s speaker cable designs he offers 3 different copper options but uses the same geometry.  Even he can’t explain why each copper type sounds different but apparently they do.  He doesn’t explain sound differences and thankfully doesn’t try to.  But he does explain the choices made for each aspect of his design.  Every part of his cable has been meticulously tested, measured, listened to and optimized.  And yet so much of the design is also limited by what can be manufactured.  So far I’ve only experienced his lower cost BAV line of interconnects and found them to exceed the performance of my longtime favorites.  The man knows his stuff.

subsonic1050

Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #54 on: 31 Jul 2021, 03:28 am »
Thanks.  I do appreciate it that you understand my positioning in this thread.  I'm just trying to keep it on the rails here within reason.

The sound of cabling is much more complex than the old "R, L, C explains everything" argument.  There are about a dozen different parameters that determine the basics of cable sonics.  That includes the elusive FM (freaking magic) aspect.   I've been in the technical field of cable characteristics for many years and I'll be the first to admit that occasionally results simply defy final estimates, especially in the GHz realm, but we are getting closer to understanding the quantum realities that effect wire, cable, metallurgy, geometry and dielectrics in use.

The .408 is an astonishing performer.  But, it is insanely expensive to shoot and the recoil is punishing because the rifle is so light compared to a Barrett BMG.  A 6.5 Creedmore is a lot more fun to shoot.

I certainly don't mind being corrected when I'm wrong - particularly in areas which I don't have expertise. I'll fully admit that my understanding of electronics is just enough to be dangerous. If you need help with woodworking or god forbid, heart surgery - I'm your man. For electronics, I'll defer to people like you. I just prefer it when people present their knowledge in a kind, informative and respectful way as you have done.

Interesting that you should mention the 6.5 Creedmoor - of all my precision rifles the 6.5 is by far my favorite. It's not a competition rig but I have a slightly tricked out Ruger Precision Rifle with a Silencerco Omega on it that I absolutely love.

Cheytak.408

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #55 on: 31 Jul 2021, 04:00 am »
[quote author=subsonic1050 link=topic=177473.msg1868150#msg1868150 date=1627702136
Interesting that you should mention the 6.5 Creedmoor - of all my precision rifles the 6.5 is by far my favorite. It's not a competition rig but I have a slightly tricked out Ruger Precision Rifle with a Silencerco Omega on it that I absolutely love.
[/quote] Hopefully I won't need you professional services!

Bergara B14/Silencerco (great minds)  Suppressed is a must... along with NRR32 plugs AND electronic muffs.  We are stereo geeks after all.

Back on topic from here on...

Stephen Scharf

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #56 on: 31 Jul 2021, 05:03 am »
In Galen’s speaker cable designs he offers 3 different copper options but uses the same geometry.  Even he can’t explain why each copper type sounds different but apparently they do.  He doesn’t explain sound differences and thankfully doesn’t try to.  But he does explain the choices made for each aspect of his design.  Every part of his cable has been meticulously tested, measured, listened to and optimized.  And yet so much of the design is also limited by what can be manufactured.  So far I’ve only experienced his lower cost BAV line of interconnects and found them to exceed the performance of my longtime favorites.  The man knows his stuff.

Yes, Galen is knowledgeable and his white papers explaining this are excellent.

With respect to different copper types, a couple of the reasons that they can sound different is due contamination by oxygen, which can lead to oxidation of the copper and impact it's sonic performance. The other factor that is also important is the crystalline structure of the copper. Monocrystal copper sounds better than lower-grades of copper, but it quite a bit more expensive to manufacture as it is more susceptible to defects during the casting and drawing process. And, as Carlos has mentioned, in addition to the metallurgy, the cable geometry and dielectrics utilized have a notable influence on sound quality.
« Last Edit: 31 Jul 2021, 06:04 am by Stephen Scharf »

Cheytak.408

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #57 on: 31 Jul 2021, 05:25 am »
Yes, Galen is knowledgeable and his white papers explaining this are excellent.

With respect to different copper types, a couple of the reasons that they can sound different is due contamination by oxygen, which can lead to oxidation of the copper and impact it's sonic performance. The other factor that is also important is the crystalline structure of the copper. Monocrystal copper sounds better than lower-grades of copper, but it quite a bit more expensive to manufacture as it is more susceptible to defects during the casting and drawing process. And, as Cheytak has mentioned, in addition to the metallurgy, the cable geometry and dielectrics utilized have a notable influence on sound quality.
BTW:  my name is Carlos   :D

Stephen Scharf

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #58 on: 31 Jul 2021, 05:30 am »
Here is a quote from Galen Garies on his white paper on audio cables, entitled Time; shown in blue font.

"3.0 VELOCITY OF PROPAGATION ISSUES
The issue – VP varies the arrival time of signals moving down a cable. Signals
should ideally leave and arrive at the same time and shape as they are sent at all
frequencies. Audio is in an electromagnetic transition band. This is the elephant in the room.

It prevents the cable from EVER being perfectly accurate when moving low frequency electromagnetic
waves.

The propagation constant, the speed at which the electromagnetic wave / signal
moves down the wire’s outer circumference, and not IN the wire, is determined by the
dielectric material that the electromagnetic wave is predominantly traveling through. We can
measure this effect directly and indirectly.

At RF, where life is way more consistent for cables, we can calculate the velocity from the
DELAY equation.  For Ethernet cables the following equation is used;
Delay EQUATION at RF:

                                                              (534+36/√f)

The delay equation uses FREQUENCY. This is a TIME based value so it tells us that we
have an arrival time issues as the frequency changes
, and less so at RF, and WAY more so at audio frequencies.

The table illustrates the slow erosion of speed as we reduce the RF frequency. A little change is evident but at audio frequencies see much more change.



Actual data shows what audio cables do; the impedance RISES as we go LOWER in
frequency, by a lot. This is because the DELAY / VP factor drops, and adds TIMING issues
to signal delivery."




Galen adds this comment:

"Look at the low-frequency range. Isn’t cable supposed to be the same at all frequencies or the
same TIME base? The velocity constant at a frequency is TIME, so the fact that we see a difference indicates a non-linearity across the usable audio band. The problem is that thing called propagation velocity (VP) or the speed that information travels at differing frequencies in the cable."


Timing issues are just one of the reasons why we can hear differences in audio cables. Our brains are exquisitely sensitive to timing in music reproduction, which is why high-end audio digital devices e.g., DACs, streamers, Ethernet switches, reclockers, etc., for example, use femto clocks.

Stephen Scharf

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #59 on: 31 Jul 2021, 05:31 am »
BTW:  my name is Carlos   :D

Thanks, Carlos. Cheers.