AudioCircle

Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Danny Richie on 15 Sep 2015, 07:23 pm

Title: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 15 Sep 2015, 07:23 pm
Introducing the level 1 upgrade package.

This improves any speaker, and is easy for the owner to perform the upgrade themselves.

1) Replace the binding posts with tube connectors. You can even leave your old binding posts and just parallel them to a set of tube connectors. The tube connectors mount easily through any cabinet wall regardless of the thickness. You simply drill a 7/16" diameter hole for each connector. The improvement over typical binding post cups is pretty significant with a level of clarity across the board. http://gr-research.com/electracabletubeconnectors.aspx  Even if you are using some of the highest quality binding posts on the market there is still improvement to be had by going to tube connectors.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/tubes2.jpg)

2) Replace all of the wiring with our high quality internal wire. Our custom internal wire is a four 9's high purity solid core Copper wire with polyethylene jacketing. It out performs all but the most exotic internal wire. If you factor in performance verses cost compared to any other internal wire makes this wire a bargain at only 75 cents a foot.

3) Line your cabinet walls with No Rez. http://gr-research.com/norez24x27sheet.aspx  No Rez damps out unwanted cabinet resonances and improves clarity in the bass and mid-range areas. Even with well braced cabinets there can be an improvement with the added use of No Rez. Lightly braced or unbraced cabinets will benefit significantly.

Order this upgrade package by phone and we'll discount the tube connectors from $59 a set to $50 a set and discount sheets of No Rez down to $36 each. And just let us know how many feet of wire you need with it.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/connectors.jpg)

Mention this post and sale price when ordering to get this deal.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 15 Sep 2015, 07:24 pm
Our level 2 upgrade package includes the level 1 upgrade plus we'll upgrade any or all of your internal crossover parts.

We can send you value for value the parts you need or build out new networks for you. Just send us information and pictures of your existing crossovers and we'll recommend the upgrade path for you.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/LGKcrossover2.jpg)
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 15 Sep 2015, 07:25 pm
Our level 3 upgrade involves you sending us your speakers.

We can measure and test your speakers and give you a complete set of measurements and recommendations. We offer this measure and testing service for free. You just cover any shipping and handling cost.

We can provide you with what you need to make the upgrades yourself or handle everything in house from beginning to end. We can handle anything from your custom DIY project to the most exotic and prestigious speakers on the market.

Here is a little feedback on the Usher BE-20 upgrade: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=135099.0

(http://freemarket.kiev.ua/images_goods/Usher-Audio/Usher-Audio-Be-20-4.jpg)

No project is too big.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/dannysproject.jpg)
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: jeffh on 15 Sep 2015, 08:38 pm
 :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
I sent Danny a pair of speakers I had built and had him measure them and design the baffle step loss compensation filter.  The results were well worth it!  I added the filter he designed and I am still enjoying the improved sound today.  Here is a link to that thread (with his measurements) if you are interested:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=123534.msg1301431#msg1301431 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=123534.msg1301431#msg1301431)

Highly recommended!

Jeff
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 15 Sep 2015, 08:44 pm
Thanks Jeff.

That one was a pretty easy one, and fun to work on.  :thumb:
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: jtsnead on 15 Sep 2015, 08:57 pm
Introducing the level 1 upgrade package.



Do these take standard banana connectors?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: richidoo on 15 Sep 2015, 09:35 pm
Do these take standard banana connectors?

Yes, I use Electra Tubes with expandable WBT banana connectors. Good fit, good sound.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Skiman on 15 Sep 2015, 09:59 pm
Yes, I use Electra Tubes with expandable WBT banana connectors. Good fit, good sound.

Doing so defeats the main benefit of Electa Tube connector system, in my opinion. I say this with confidence because I was able to compare both. I recently received a new LSC speaker made by Ruben of Outofthewoods. He built it with  'female' Electra Tube connectors per Danny's specification. Initially, I couldn't insert my existing 10 AWG speaker wire into the male tube, so I used my banana male connector and inserted it into the Electro Tube in the speaker. I thought it sounded fine at the time. But being curious, I tried again and was finally able to attach the tube male connector to the speaker wires. Keeping the volume level unchanged, I listened to my Diana Krall SACD in 5.1 surround, so her vocals came from the LSC and immediately noticed an improvement in clarity and detail. I was not expecting this, especially since I had been a bit skeptical before this 'test'.

Electra tube connectors are the way to go.     
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 15 Sep 2015, 10:36 pm
Yes, standard banana plugs are the same size.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/stud1.jpg)

But you do loose quality passing the signal through the tip of the banana plug.

The male stud for the tube connectors is completely hollow. So your speaker wire slides all the way through to the end of it. This is three 16 gauge wires spiral wound. I think it equals almost 11 gauge.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/stud2.jpg)

Then just crimp the end, solder it and heat shrink it to seal it.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/stud3.jpg)

If you use the banana plug it puts your speaker cable a long way from the internal wire. And it puts a lot of material in the signal path that is not an ideal carrier for the signal.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/stud4.jpg)

There is clearly a difference in clarity if you use the male studs.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: JLM on 15 Sep 2015, 10:51 pm
Great ideas.

I implemented levels 1 and 2 on my single driver speaker by eliminating the binding post, running speaker cable directly to the drivers, and replaced the baffle step circuit with EQ. 

Danny, not sure the level 3 offer makes sense for boutique speakers, designed by quality/personalized people, but I'm sure they would be the most interesting for you to work on.  For lesser speakers, would you make an assessment to determine if all the effort/expense would be worth it?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 15 Sep 2015, 11:02 pm
Danny, not sure the level 3 offer makes sense for boutique speakers, designed by quality/personalized people, but I'm sure they would be the most interesting for you to work on.  For lesser speakers, would you make an assessment to determine if all the effort/expense would be worth it?

I have upgraded a lot of expensive boutique speakers. The BE-20's pictured above is a good example. You'd be surprised just how much performance is often left on the table. See this feedback on them: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=135099.0

Anytime I do a full set a measurements and evaluation of a pair of speakers (free) there is a recommendation on what the paths are for improvements. Sometimes a few small things are all that's needed and sometimes a complete re-due is required.

There have been times I've told the customer that I can completely re-design and rebuild a pair of speakers but that in the end there are better options and it might not be worth it. Sometimes though there is a nostalgic attachment to old speakers and people want them upgraded to modern parts and performance levels.   
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Peter J on 16 Sep 2015, 12:33 am
How much No-Rez did that big one take, Danny?







Come on, can't put a photo like that up with no explanation...it's just not right! That is you in the photo, isn't it?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 16 Sep 2015, 12:44 am
How much No-Rez did that big one take, Danny?

Come on, can't put a photo like that up with no explanation...it's just not right! That is you in the photo, isn't it?

There was a pair of these big boys on either side of the entrance way at a car audio place in WA state.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: S Clark on 16 Sep 2015, 12:49 am
One of these days, I'm going to carry my old Design Acoustics D-12 dodecahedron speakers up to Iowa Park.  Years ago Danny heard them in my living room, but I'd bet he has never worked on anything like them. 
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/2c/49/7d/2c497d1bee11c4c82280835a93895b1b.jpg)
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 16 Sep 2015, 12:55 am
One of these days, I'm going to carry my old Design Acoustics D-12 dodecahedron speakers up to Iowa Park.  Years ago Danny heard them in my living room, but I'd bet he has never worked on anything like them. 
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/2c/49/7d/2c497d1bee11c4c82280835a93895b1b.jpg)

That's true. I have never worked on any of those.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: KLH007 on 16 Sep 2015, 03:56 am
Ric schultz, Do you have any experience with Danny's hook up wire? I see you use Audio Magic wire in some of your mods on PC Boards, Ever use it for speakers?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Ultralight on 16 Sep 2015, 04:17 am
How about for something more modest like the Omega Super 3i?   I've been quite taken by these little low cost but NOT cheap speakers.  Very impressive for their speed, resolution, coherence, and timbre even at low volume.  (For me, bang for the buck champ if you already have a subwoofer.)  And can your changes be done without additional drilling so that the cabinet stays stock?

Always curious, always learning....:)
UL
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 16 Sep 2015, 02:12 pm
How about for something more modest like the Omega Super 3i?   I've been quite taken by these little low cost but NOT cheap speakers.  Very impressive for their speed, resolution, coherence, and timbre even at low volume.  (For me, bang for the buck champ if you already have a subwoofer.)  And can your changes be done without additional drilling so that the cabinet stays stock?

Always curious, always learning....:)
UL

That's a great speaker for the level 1 mod. I'll guarantee improvements across the board.

As for the binding posts, all you have to do is remove the old ones and chaise the hole for them with just a slightly larger drill bit to increase the size just slightly for the tube connectors.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: rajacat on 16 Sep 2015, 03:20 pm
Is the male tube connector available without purchasing the female plug?
 Is the male connector easily reusable in case you change cables?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 16 Sep 2015, 03:56 pm
Is the male tube connector available without purchasing the female plug?
 Is the male connector easily reusable in case you change cables?

The male studs are available separately and are only $3.00 each. So you can add them to all your speaker cables.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Ultralight on 16 Sep 2015, 06:37 pm
How thick is no rez?

Thanks.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 16 Sep 2015, 07:27 pm
How thick is no rez?

Thanks.

All specs on it are here: http://gr-research.com/norez24x27sheet.aspx
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: srb on 16 Sep 2015, 09:03 pm
All specs on it are here: http://gr-research.com/norez24x27sheet.aspx (http://gr-research.com/norez24x27sheet.aspx)

It says the second foam layer is 1" but doesn't give the total thickness of the product including the damping layer.  Is it 1-1/8", 1-/1/4", etc.?

Steve
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: jtwrace on 16 Sep 2015, 09:06 pm
It says the second foam layer is 1" but doesn't give the total thickness of the product including the damping layer.  Is it 1-1/8", 1-/1/4", etc.?

Steve
I think it Texas that's referred to an 1" and a scoche.   :lol:
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: SteveFord on 16 Sep 2015, 09:12 pm
What do you think those connectors would do for Magnepans?  They have this grub screw arrangement where you can just stick bare wire in there.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: srb on 16 Sep 2015, 09:39 pm
I think it Texas that's referred to an 1" and a scoche.   :lol:

Well it does say that the damping layer is nearly twice as thick as that of the other "popular damping material", so I guess that's 1" and a double-scoche.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: mikeeastman on 16 Sep 2015, 11:31 pm
Measured a piece I had laying around. 1" including the damping layer.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 16 Sep 2015, 11:48 pm
The damper is right at .09".
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 16 Sep 2015, 11:49 pm
What do you think those connectors would do for Magnepans?  They have this grub screw arrangement where you can just stick bare wire in there.

It will be a considerable upgrade on the Maggies. Crossover parts upgrades are very common with those as well and can also make a considerable improvement.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: bdp24 on 18 Sep 2015, 10:36 am
It will be a considerable upgrade on the Maggies. Crossover parts upgrades are very common with those as well and can also make a considerable improvement.
This is so great Danny. I had been planning on having Sean (The Skiing Ninja) make me some outboard cross-overs for my Eminent Technology LFT-8b's (magnetic-planars like Maggies, but double-ended push-pull resulting from their double-sided magnet structure), but he has closed shop. The LFT has a bass-driver enclosure the panel sits on, the top of which will make a perfect location for setting the outboard x/o on (the connections to the panels are on their exterior too). Regarding No Rez, up to what frequency does it provide resonance absorption? The LFT panels extend down to 180Hz (of course, as the x/o is a shallow 1st order, they have output considerably below that), and the drivers are mounted on flat unbraced MDF panels 1' W X 4' tall, seemingly a good candidate for No Rez.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 18 Sep 2015, 04:08 pm
This is so great Danny. I had been planning on having Sean (The Skiing Ninja) make me some outboard cross-overs for my Eminent Technology LFT-8b's (magnetic-planars like Maggies, but double-ended push-pull resulting from their double-sided magnet structure), but he has closed shop. The LFT has a bass-driver enclosure the panel sits on, the top of which will make a perfect location for setting the outboard x/o on (the connections to the panels are on their exterior too). Regarding No Rez, up to what frequency does it provide resonance absorption? The LFT panels extend down to 180Hz (of course, as the x/o is a shallow 1st order, they have output considerably below that), and the drivers are mounted on flat unbraced MDF panels 1' W X 4' tall, seemingly a good candidate for No Rez.

I can build out some crossovers for you.

The No Rez doesn't provide resonance absorption from the foam layer. It's the damping layer that controls cabinet resonance and it has effect across the board not just at a certain frequency range.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: jpm on 18 Sep 2015, 08:03 pm
Danny,

given your knowledge of Usher speakers, I'm curious to know what you'd suggest for my HT setup: CP6381 + X616 + S520

With the finish on the CP6381 and X616 I'd be reluctant to drill new holes, would a retrofit of the existing terminals work there?

Since I've entertained the notion of upgrading the tweeters to the BE units in the CP6381 and X616, would any crossover upgrades apply universally?

Thanks!
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: charmerci on 18 Sep 2015, 09:05 pm


The male stud for the tube connectors is completely hollow. So your speaker wire slides all the way through to the end of it. This is three 16 gauge wires spiral wound. I think it equals almost 11 gauge.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/stud2.jpg)

Then just crimp the end, solder it and heat shrink it to seal it.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/stud3.jpg)



I didn't know that. I only had the wires pushed in to the back of the thick part.


I pushed them in all the way and there does seem to be a lot more bass.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 18 Sep 2015, 09:11 pm
Danny,

given your knowledge of Usher speakers, I'm curious to know what you'd suggest for my HT setup: CP6381 + X616 + S520

With the finish on the CP6381 and X616 I'd be reluctant to drill new holes, would a retrofit of the existing terminals work there?

Since I've entertained the notion of upgrading the tweeters to the BE units in the CP6381 and X616, would any crossover upgrades apply universally?

Thanks!

Most of those speakers have really nice drivers and really nice cabinets. But the wiring and crossovers in them are less than being close to the quality of everything else (to put it nicely).

The crossover design work in most of them that I have been into has been pretty good. I haven't seen any phase issues, driver break up, or amplitude problems. Though I did have to shift the crossover points down a bit on the BE-20's to improve phase relationship and vertical off axis responses.

What I mean by saying all that is that you can swap out parts value for value and come out real good on it. I would point to point wire everything too. The generic circuit boards they use are not something I'd re-use.

The binding posts on some of those models are large in diameter. So they look cool, but are not what you want in the signal path. The good thing is the hole is already close to the size they need to be for tube connectors.

I have had some guys do away with the dual binding posts and just replace the upper set with tube connectors and connect the lower set up to them in parallel so you can use either or. My favorite part about that is when the customer calls back to tell me how much difference there is in the two connectors and how much better the tube connectors sound.  :thumb:

If you try swapping out the tweeters then you will need to re-design the crossovers. And there is nothing wrong with their best soft dome tweeter. It is a very good tweeter. And it is a little more forgiving than the BE version.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: jpm on 18 Sep 2015, 10:17 pm
Thanks Danny. The logical starting point ought to be the X616, being manageable in size and giving the most bang for the $ in HT use.

I appreciate your opinion on the tweeters too. The idea of a BE upgrade was very appealing, but in practice tracking them down is close to impossible. I had a friend in Taiwan try to get them locally but no dice. With your input and I'll stick with the stock drivers.

Next step, a photo of the crossover and a phone call ...
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: KLH007 on 19 Sep 2015, 12:06 am
Danny, I don't see your hook up wire on your site, can you tell us about it?  I've been using Jupiter copper 6N cotton insulator wire with good results, but I haven't done any A-B comparisons, I trust you have compared your wire to others in the marketplace?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 19 Sep 2015, 12:16 am
Danny, I don't see your hook up wire on your site, can you tell us about it?  I've been using Jupiter copper 6N cotton insulator wire with good results, but I haven't done any A-B comparisons, I trust you have compared your wire to others in the marketplace?

I don't have the raw hookup wire listed on my site.

That Jupiter wire is really good wire. But I don't think there is anything sealing it. So I'd be worried about is oxidizing quickly through the cotton.

Our wire was basically modeled after the JPS Labs super conductor wire. I used to stock that wire as well.

It is 16 gauge, four 9's pure Copper, in a polyethylene jacket.

I have made a lot of comparisons and I am very happy with it.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 19 Sep 2015, 12:17 am
Thanks Danny. The logical starting point ought to be the X616, being manageable in size and giving the most bang for the $ in HT use.

I appreciate your opinion on the tweeters too. The idea of a BE upgrade was very appealing, but in practice tracking them down is close to impossible. I had a friend in Taiwan try to get them locally but no dice. With your input and I'll stick with the stock drivers.

Next step, a photo of the crossover and a phone call ...

Good plan.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 19 Sep 2015, 12:33 am
This is so great Danny. I had been planning on having Sean (The Skiing Ninja) make me some outboard cross-overs for my Eminent Technology LFT-8b's (magnetic-planars like Maggies, but double-ended push-pull resulting from their double-sided magnet structure), but he has closed shop.

If you haven't had them apart yet, I've seen the crossovers on these, and there is a lot of room to improve for sure.  I would be interested to read what Danny thinks of the planar drivers after measuring them.  When I had mine, I seriously thought about just using the top driver frame and modding/adding servo subs to replace the boxed woofer.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: bdp24 on 22 Sep 2015, 01:44 pm
If you haven't had them apart yet, I've seen the crossovers on these, and there is a lot of room to improve for sure.  I would be interested to read what Danny thinks of the planar drivers after measuring them.  When I had mine, I seriously thought about just using the top driver frame and modding/adding servo subs to replace the boxed woofer.

Jonathon---Great minds think alike, as they say! That's exactly what I've done. I simply disconnected the jumpers from the input binding posts to the woofers, leaving the magnetic planar panels hook-up stock. I use the OB/Dipole GR/Rythmik Servo sub in place of the ET's sealed 8" (which has a 180Hz 1st order x/o), using the controls on the Rythmik amp to set the x/o frequency, etc. I'm going to copy the x/o schematic off the ET site and send it to Danny to make me a pair (stock values, but using the best quality parts). The new x/o can just sit on top of the ET woofer bin (right where the ET binding posts are), my power amp feeding the new x/o and it now connected to the panel connectors. Very simple, and a worthwhile improvement, I have no doubt. Bruce Thigpen, the designer of the speaker and owner of ET, isn't opposed to that being done, and has even provided advice for those who have asked him about doing it.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: kevb on 5 Oct 2015, 03:31 pm
Hmmm.....I have a pair of the Usher CP-6311's in the Ferrari Red finish that look dynamite in my room.  It would be great to tweaks the sonics on them for a bit more resolution and a little tighter bass.  Danny, have you ever taken a look at those?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 5 Oct 2015, 05:26 pm
Hmmm.....I have a pair of the Usher CP-6311's in the Ferrari Red finish that look dynamite in my room.  It would be great to tweaks the sonics on them for a bit more resolution and a little tighter bass.  Danny, have you ever taken a look at those?

Yes, there is a lot of up side potential in all of the Usher speakers. They really respond to upgrades of caps and resistors. Wire, tube connectors, and No Rez is a nice improvement too.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: kevb on 5 Oct 2015, 07:46 pm
Yes, there is a lot of up side potential in all of the Usher speakers. They really respond to upgrades of caps and resistors. Wire, tube connectors, and No Rez is a nice improvement too.

Hmmmm.....was that the sound of my wallet opening up?  Yes, I do believe so....

I absolutely love the looks - and I do enjoy the sound as it is....but the bass is a little rounded, and the resolution, while very good, seems like it could be another notch or 2 better.  Or at least that's what my eyes want my ears to believe.   :green:

When I get a chance, I will get inside and take a picture of the crossover.  Thanks!
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: surfin on 10 Oct 2015, 08:04 pm
Danny,

I was wondering what performance upside there is for a set of AV123 Onix 760 Rockets ??

If you could respond here or send me a PM, that would be cool !!

Thanks !!
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: jkelly on 10 Oct 2015, 09:30 pm
I wonder what the possibilities are with the ELAC's that are ready to ship shortly!
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 11 Oct 2015, 01:43 am
I wonder what the possibilities are with the ELAC's that are ready to ship shortly!

I have had several people ask me that. Several in fact asked me while I was at the show.

My thoughts on them are that Andrew Jones did a nice job with them. It reminds me of what I did with the X-series speakers. I laid my hand on one of them while they were playing. The cabinets felt lightly made and were buzzing a bit with each bass note. It also wasn't really spiked to the floor very well and easily moved around a bit as I moved my hand across the top of it. And yet, they still sounded really good. They were very balanced. He likely did a nice job with the crossover design. But they were built to a price point. So there is likely a lot of upside potential with parts quality upgrades and lining them with No Rez.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 17 Oct 2015, 11:14 pm
New Electra Cable tube connector review from New Record Day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLnBW3wuBSU&feature=youtu.be

"Repeatable and easy to detect differences", even on one of our budget level kits and with an inexpensive system.  :thumb:
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: THROWBACK on 17 Oct 2015, 11:35 pm
A little off topic, maybe, but maybe not too far.
When I built my vertical stack of three 12" servos per side to supplement my LS-9's (fan-TAS-tic speakers, BTW), I put them into separate cabinets and bolted the cabinets together. I did it that way mainly to save my back. Them suckers is heavy! All the woofers are facing out at the moment, but it would be fairly easy to rotate the middle one (say) to the rear and do a little rewiring to keep the proper phase alignment. The question is: would it be worth it? Theoretically, this arrangement should reduce 2nd harmonic distortion. But I would love to hear from someone who has tried it both ways. I saw Danny (Hi, Danny) at RMAF but forgot to ask him this question. OTOH it would be good to get input from some of you as well.
Thanks.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 18 Oct 2015, 02:20 am
A little off topic, maybe, but maybe not too far.
When I built my vertical stack of three 12" servos per side to supplement my LS-9's (fan-TAS-tic speakers, BTW), I put them into separate cabinets and bolted the cabinets together. I did it that way mainly to save my back. Them suckers is heavy! All the woofers are facing out at the moment, but it would be fairly easy to rotate the middle one (say) to the rear and do a little rewiring to keep the proper phase alignment. The question is: would it be worth it? Theoretically, this arrangement should reduce 2nd harmonic distortion. But I would love to hear from someone who has tried it both ways. I saw Danny (Hi, Danny) at RMAF but forgot to ask him this question. OTOH it would be good to get input from some of you as well.
Thanks.

Another reason to consider flipping it around is that it makes it more stable as it balances out the weight. It might be worth you giving it a try to see (or hear) what the differences are.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 23 Nov 2015, 03:38 pm
I had to sticky this one. There is just too much good information here to let it get lost in a sea of threads. 

Anyone that owns a pair of speakers and is interested in making them sound better should really consider the level 1 mod. So far everyone has been REALLY happy with the results.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: RoadTripper on 23 Nov 2015, 04:38 pm
I've got plain-jane VMPS RM40s. I know you've applied your insights to making improvements on those. Short of shipping them anywhere (ain't gonna happen) what do you recommend? I think the bass is kinda lame.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 23 Nov 2015, 04:59 pm
I've got plain-jane VMPS RM40s. I know you've applied your insights to making improvements on those. Short of shipping them anywhere (ain't gonna happen) what do you recommend? I think the bass is kinda lame.

Yeah, I can help you out a lot with these, but it would be best to discuss your options with you in a PM or over a phone call. Actually a phone call would be best. If I started posting information about these here then some people would get bent out of shape.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Freo-1 on 24 Nov 2015, 01:42 am
Danny,

Finally took your advice, and had our mutual friend build a set of outboard crossovers for the ATC SCM-19's.  The parts fill up a 8 inch by 12 inch enclosure.  New internal wiring, along with wiring from the crossovers to the speakers. 

Will post an update and pics of the crossovers in a few days.   After looking at the stock crossover vs. the revised unit, expect the sound to be improved by a fair amount.  The quality of the drivers is first rate.  Was surprised that the crossover quality didn't match that of the drivers.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Early B. on 24 Nov 2015, 02:32 am
Will post an update and pics of the crossovers in a few days.   After looking at the stock crossover vs. the revised unit, expect the sound to be improved by a fair amount.  The quality of the drivers is first rate.  Was surprised that the crossover quality didn't match that of the drivers.

Looking forward to the pics and your assessment of the expected improvement in sound.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: doctorcilantro on 24 Nov 2015, 02:53 am
Any perspective on whether or not this is worthwhile if the driver has FastOn connectors and spring loaded connections? Sounds interesting but my Zu Unions have a bunch of these types of links inside, I guess they are "lower-mass" than binding posts though.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 24 Nov 2015, 03:22 am
Any perspective on whether or not this is worthwhile if the driver has FastOn connectors and spring loaded connections? Sounds interesting but my Zu Unions have a bunch of these types of links inside, I guess they are "lower-mass" than binding posts though.

I'd have to say that you have a lot of upside potential with that speaker. I say that mainly because there were a LOT of issues with them. I have a complete set of measurements on them and a crossover design that that transformed that design.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Folsom on 24 Nov 2015, 05:34 pm
So do I send my X-LS's to you Danny? :lol:

Actually I've been thinking if there were any way to blend the tweeter better, it would be nice. It walks away from the woofer a little with speed.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 24 Nov 2015, 05:45 pm
So do I send my X-LS's to you Danny? :lol:

Actually I've been thinking if there were any way to blend the tweeter better, it would be nice. It walks away from the woofer a little with speed.

You can, or I can provide you with whatever you need to upgrade them.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Folsom on 24 Nov 2015, 06:07 pm
They have the upgraded parts from you, but I guess I was wondering if there is a change that might match the tweeter just a little bit better. (I suspect most people wouldn't notice, their amp wouldn't show them the tweeter being faster)
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: corndog71 on 24 Nov 2015, 06:18 pm
They have the upgraded parts from you, but I guess I was wondering if there is a change that might match the tweeter just a little bit better. (I suspect most people wouldn't notice, their amp wouldn't show them the tweeter being faster)

I think with the Sonicap upgrades you're hearing the best those tweeters can do.  If it's still not satisfying then it may be time to explore other speakers.  Danny's N-Series offers more resolution and speed while still being extremely easy to listen to with no ear fatigue.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 24 Nov 2015, 06:42 pm
They have the upgraded parts from you, but I guess I was wondering if there is a change that might match the tweeter just a little bit better. (I suspect most people wouldn't notice, their amp wouldn't show them the tweeter being faster)

All tweeters are faster than woofers. Speed is really the measure of how fast they dissipate stored energy and all of that relates to moving mass in a big way.

In this model the crossover point is really low. This means the tweeter more easily and seamlessly integrates with the woofer. They are also dead on in a phase relationship. So they blend together a LOT better than just about any mini-monitors out there.

So I think you are just hearing resolution levels that are beyond the norm.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Folsom on 24 Nov 2015, 06:54 pm
I think with the Sonicap upgrades you're hearing the best those tweeters can do.  If it's still not satisfying then it may be time to explore other speakers.  Danny's N-Series offers more resolution and speed while still being extremely easy to listen to with no ear fatigue.

The problem isn't the tweeter, it's really good. The problem is it's nearly too good for the woofer.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 24 Nov 2015, 07:39 pm
The problem isn't the tweeter, it's really good. The problem is it's nearly too good for the woofer.

Actually, that is also a really good woofer. The quality levels match very well.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Freo-1 on 25 Nov 2015, 10:31 pm
Looking forward to the pics and your assessment of the expected improvement in sound.

Thanks! 

Got the speakers back yesterday.  Although the crossovers still need to break-in, I can safely report that the improvement is nothing short of astounding. 

 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=132432)


The parts take up most of a 8" by 12" enclosure.  Compare to the stock unit:

 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=132433)


The sound is much improved across the entire audio spectrum.  The bass is fuller, yet tighter.  The mid-range is significantly improved in clarity, and the treble sounds as if a new and improved tweeter is in the speaker.  Given what manufactures charge for their better speakers, makes one wonder why they often don't put better parts in the crossovers.  I got a education some time back when I had crossovers re-done in a pair of Legacy speakers.  The parts in those were not very good quality.

The improvement is so good, that I would put this up against the V.2 version of the SCM 19, and I bet this would sound better.  The major difference is the V.2 has a new tweeter, made in house vice the scanspeak in the V1.  The woofer/mid is the same.

Danny, I am floored at the difference.  The fact that I have a second set of stock speakers to compare them to really allows the differences to be focused on. 

I'll post an update in a week or two after the caps break in.  Should only get better. 
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 25 Nov 2015, 10:49 pm
Thanks! 

Got the speakers back yesterday.  Although the crossovers still need to break-in, I can

Post some pics and feedback when you get a chance.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Freo-1 on 25 Nov 2015, 10:54 pm
Post some pics and feedback when you get a chance.

Copy that.  Just posted the update.   :D

 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=132435) 
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Folsom on 25 Nov 2015, 11:27 pm
Actually, that is also a really good woofer. The quality levels match very well.

I don't disagree, but I won't say no to possibilities. I've been trying to think of ways to encourage what I want. Do you have a picture of the bottom of the PCB board? I can open my speakers, but it's much harder than looking at a JPEG.

Did you ever do any NOrh speakers Danny? I bet you could make them sound amazing, given how much those rather special enclosures did for them to begin with, but they needed crossover help. For awhile everyone on here had them.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 25 Nov 2015, 11:44 pm
I don't disagree, but I won't say no to possibilities. I've been trying to think of ways to encourage what I want. Do you have a picture of the bottom of the PCB board? I can open my speakers, but it's much harder than looking at a JPEG.

Did you ever do any NOrh speakers Danny? I bet you could make them sound amazing, given how much those rather special enclosures did for them to begin with, but they needed crossover help. For awhile everyone on here had them.

Are we talking about different speakers? What woofer are you talking about?

I have looked at the NOrh speakers. And I have used those drivers in other designs.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Folsom on 25 Nov 2015, 11:47 pm
Are we talking about different speakers? What woofer are you talking about?

I have looked at the NOrh speakers. And I have used those drivers in other designs.

I'm talking about the X-LS encore. I'd like to see the crossover bottom.

I just meant to the title of this thread, that NOrh speakers would be something you could bring up to date to be current. The other night I stumbled upon them again for some reason, and it occurred to me you could do some magic with them since their crossovers are considered to be pretty poor.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 25 Nov 2015, 11:51 pm
Copy that.  Just posted the update.   :D

 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=132435) 

I'm not a big fan of those caps. But they are a big improvement over what was stock.

Lots of binding posts in there as well. Those equal a lot of insertion loss. Some tube connectors would be a big improvement. I'd highly recommend them.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 25 Nov 2015, 11:52 pm
I'm talking about the X-LS encore. I'd like to see the crossover bottom.

Yeah, if you start comparing that woofers to others out there, and especially look at the spectral decay, it is pretty tough to beat.

What do you mean by the crossover bottom?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Folsom on 26 Nov 2015, 12:03 am
Yeah, if you start comparing that woofers to others out there, and especially look at the spectral decay, it is pretty tough to beat.

What do you mean by the crossover bottom?

I don't have a schematic, or a picture of the bottom on hand. I've come up with one minor change that might do what I'd like with the X-LS. Again, I don't think there's a lot of room for improvement, but I believe there's a minor possibility without having to graduate to a whole new class of speaker.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 26 Nov 2015, 12:14 am
I don't have a schematic, or a picture of the bottom on hand. I've come up with one minor change that might do what I'd like with the X-LS. Again, I don't think there's a lot of room for improvement, but I believe there's a minor possibility without having to graduate to a whole new class of speaker.

Well, I have all of that information and I know what those woofers are capable of. Give me a call and I'll go over some options with you that will take them up a notch.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Freo-1 on 26 Nov 2015, 12:16 am
I'm not a big fan of those caps. But they are a big improvement over what was stock.

Lots of binding posts in there as well. Those equal a lot of insertion loss. Some tube connectors would be a big improvement. I'd highly recommend them.

Well, so far, I'm noticing a huge improvement in sound.  I can certainly look into tube connectors.

What caps do you like?  I have always liked Mundorf caps.

BTW, I really like the woofer in this speaker.  Hard to find a better built 6" driver.

 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=132438)
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: srb on 26 Nov 2015, 12:26 am
BTW, I really like the woofer in this speaker.  Hard to find a better built 6" driver.

Looks a bit anemic and wimpy.  ;)
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 26 Nov 2015, 12:29 am
Well, so far, I'm noticing a huge improvement in sound.  I can certainly look into tube connectors.

What caps do you like?  I have always liked Mundorf caps.

I prefer the Sonicaps for this application. They are a little clearly and preserve the imaging and sound stage a little better. And the tube connectors are huge. I am more impressed with them every time I get to A/B them with anything else.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 26 Nov 2015, 12:32 am
BTW, I really like the woofer in this speaker.  Hard to find a better built 6" driver. (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=132438)

This woofer reminds me of what I see all the time in car audio. They put a motor structure on a woofer that is three or four times what it needs to be then just increase the distance in the gap to drop the field strength back down. They could keep a tighter gap and drop the magnet weight, but that would require higher assembly tolerances and it would loose the look of having a big magnet. And be magnets sell product.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 26 Nov 2015, 12:34 am

BTW, I really like the woofer in this speaker.  Hard to find a better built 6" driver.

 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=132438)

And for me I would rather see some venting below the spider and a non resonant polymer frame.

Looks good though huh?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Freo-1 on 26 Nov 2015, 12:38 am
I prefer the Sonicaps for this application. They are a little clearly and preserve the imaging and sound stage a little better. And the tube connectors are huge. I am more impressed with them every time I get to A/B them with anything else.

Thanks for the feedback.  I'm going to keep the Mundorf caps, as I really like them.  I can look into tube connectors. 

I also need to make a second set of crossovers for my other speakers.  I may look into Sonicaps.  I used Jupiter caps in the 6883B power amps (as opposed to Mundorfs in the 1625 amps), and they sound excellent.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Freo-1 on 26 Nov 2015, 12:40 am
And for me I would rather see some venting below the spider and a non resonant polymer frame.

Looks good though huh?

Trust me, it sounds VERY good as well.  Have not heard a better 6" driver yet. 
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 26 Nov 2015, 12:42 am
Trust me, it sounds VERY good as well.  Have not heard a better 6" driver yet.

Oh, I agree it is a great driver.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 26 Nov 2015, 12:45 am
Trust me, it sounds VERY good as well.  Have not heard a better 6" driver yet.

Wait until you hear these in an open baffle: http://gr-research.com/m165xwoofer-2-1.aspx

This was basically a cost no object design that uses the best of everything. The only thing I have heard that is close to these in an open baffle is the little 3" LGK drivers used in the Wedgie application. Those things are really sweet.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Freo-1 on 26 Nov 2015, 12:51 am
Wait until you hear these in an open baffle: http://gr-research.com/m165xwoofer-2-1.aspx

This was basically a cost no object design that uses the best of everything. The only thing I have heard that is close to these in an open baffle is the little 3" LGK drivers used in the Wedgie application. Those things are really sweet.

Those look excellent.  Not a lot of frequency deviation.  Hope to get a chance to hear them sometime.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 26 Nov 2015, 12:53 am
Those look excellent.  Not a lot of frequency deviation.  Hope to get a chance to hear them sometime.

They are really smooth. I am working on the new X-Otica that uses them right now. So far it all looks great.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Fredly on 4 Jan 2016, 06:43 pm
A quick post about my experience installing the Electra Tube Connectors on my Arx A5 speakers.

I did this over the Holidays and I have to say, I'm impressed.

Relatively easy to install and yes, it did make an audible difference.

Great product Danny!

Fred in Canada

http://www.chanemusiccinema.com/forum/showthread.php?48320-Wanna-make-your-Arx-sound-a-bit-better-(a-tweak)&p=754875#post754875



Title: KEF Q100 crossover, improved
Post by: maty on 16 Jan 2016, 10:08 am
I want to update the crossover of my KEF Q100. I will change capacitors (Jantzen Superior Z-Cap MKP 800 VDC 3.9 uF) and resistors (Mundorf Supreme 20W 0.68 Ohm). I have that matter, I thought about changing the wiring and after reading a lot I still have not it clear.

Please, what cable advice?

(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/kef-q100/KEF-Q100-specs.png)

(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/kef-q100/KEF-Q100-crossover.jpg)

-> http://medleysmusings.com/kef-q100-drive-unit-testing/

-> http://www.i-fidelity.net/testberichte/hifi/kef-q100/laborbericht-kef-q-100-seite-5.html
Title: Kimber 8PR speaker cables to KEF Q100 <- AV Marantz SR4500
Post by: maty on 16 Jan 2016, 10:27 am
My speaker cables: Kimber 8PR

-> http://www.kimber.com/products/legacy/pr/8/

(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/kimber-kable-8pr.jpg)

-> http://www.audioholics.com/gadget-reviews/kimber-kable-8pr/kk4pr-8prmeasurements
Title: AV Marantz SR4500 with KEF Q100
Post by: maty on 16 Jan 2016, 10:56 am
AV Marantz SR4500 (very well tweaked) with KEF Q100.

(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hum/AV-Marantz-SR4500-ifi-iCAN-KEF-Q100-ATL-Hi-Fi-DC-Ripple-Blocker-x4-ME.jpg)

You can see too: ifi iCAN (headphones amp) and my ATL Hi-Fi DC & Ripple Blocker x4 ME (aka Maty Edition).
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 16 Jan 2016, 05:13 pm
Good internal wire will make a difference, and ditching the binding posts for tube connectors is even more of a difference.

I am not a fan of the Kimber wire or the PVC jacketing. But I really like the braided geometry. The geometry of the wire can have a very notable impact.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Folsom on 16 Jan 2016, 05:33 pm
Can bananas fit in tube connector? My struggle with tube connectors is compatibility. That's my reason for not using them so far.
Title: Kimber Kable 8 PR
Post by: maty on 16 Jan 2016, 05:42 pm
from spanish forum, I wrote:

Quote
4 Kimber kable 8 pr KK066 6,41 € 25,64 €

Subtotal : 25,64 €
Gastos de envío : 9,90 €

Total Importe: 35,54 €
I.V.A 21% incluido en el TOTAL : 4,45 €

I could not resist that incredible price (4 m)  :P

Brand or model of cable, please.

Teflon (PTFE) better than PVC?

PD: the wires of AV Marantz SR4500 I covered with Teflon plumbing and then I put a PVC cover of a power cable 2.5mm2 I bought to build my short cables with RFI/EMI Schaffner filters and IEC C13 connectors.
Title: Re: Kimber Kable 8 PR
Post by: maty on 16 Jan 2016, 05:45 pm
Repeat, sorry.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 16 Jan 2016, 06:06 pm
My choices were:

Jantzen Audio 2.5mm2-13AWG silver plated PTFE PTFE: teflon cover and silver plated, cheap in EU

Auric Hookup 18 AWG wire polyethylene cover

DH-Labs 14AWG OFH-14 PTFE: teflon cover and silver plated, expensive in EU
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 16 Jan 2016, 06:25 pm
Can bananas fit in tube connector? My struggle with tube connectors is compatibility. That's my reason for not using them so far.

Standard banana plugs fit perfectly into the tube connectors. However, it will not sound as good.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 16 Jan 2016, 06:29 pm
Maty,

I am not a fan of the Silver coated Copper wire. It causes a phase shift and some discontinuity.

Our internal wire is a solid core four 9's pure Copper in polyethylene. I have been really happy with it. My speaker cables are a braided geometry using the same wire and built by Electra Cable. 
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: mlundy57 on 16 Jan 2016, 06:36 pm
Can bananas fit in tube connector? My struggle with tube connectors is compatibility. That's my reason for not using them so far.

Yes, banana plugs will fit in tube connectors, locking banana's would be better. You sacrifice some of the performance benefits though. The opposite is not always true. I have found the male tube connectors are often too large to fit into a banana jack.

I set my speaker cables up with male tube connector studs on the speaker end to mate with the female tube connector on the speaker and locking banana plugs on the amplifier end. These speaker cables will only work with speakers that have tube connectors but then, that is what I am using them with.

The male studs are available separately so it is not difficult or expensive to retrofit existing speaker cables to work with tube connectors.

Mike

Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 16 Jan 2016, 06:46 pm
Yeah, I do sell the male tube connector ends for only $3.00 each. So you can put them on all of your favorite cables.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 16 Jan 2016, 07:00 pm
Janzen and DH are silver plated  :cry:

Searching here: http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/hookup-wire.html

Neotech LECT-20

Quote
Neotech`s LECT type wire is 99.999% high purity UP-OCC rectangular copper wire, sheathed in red, heat resistant teflon. Can be used for speaker wire, mains cable and general hook up wire, the best copper wire currently available.

LECT-20: AWG 20, dimensions: inner - 0.27mm x 1.85mm, outer - 0.64mm x 2.19mm.  300V, 9A rated.
PRICE (1 metre): £5.81+vat+p&p

Solid? UP-OCC (rectangular!), no silver plated and teflon cover.

Neotech SOCT

Quote
Neotech`s SOCT type wire is 99.999% high purity UP-OCC copper solid core wire, sheathed in red, heat resistant teflon. Can be used for speaker wire, mains cable and general hook up wire, the best solid core copper wire currently available.

SOCT-18: AWG 18, 1 strand of 1mm wire, diameters, inner: 1mm, outer: 1.75mm,  600V, 12.5A rated.
PRICE (1 metre): £6.32+vat+p&p

SOCT-16: AWG 16, 1 strand of 1.3mm wire, diameters, inner: 1.3mm, outer: 2.45mm,  600V, 16A rated.
PRICE (1 metre): £8.71+vat+p&p

SOCT-14: AWG 14, 1 strand of 1.6mm wire, diameters, inner: 1.6mm, outer: 2.85mm,  600V, 22A rated.
PRICE (1 metre): £12.58+vat+p&p

SOCT-16 is a good choice, I think
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 16 Jan 2016, 07:27 pm
That Neotech OCC wire is really nice wire.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: tortoiseman2542 on 9 Feb 2017, 08:46 pm
Danny,

Are you able to create an upgraded crossover for the old Reference 1 center channel like what Sean at Skiing Ninja used to have?  I have Ninja'd Reference 1 bookshelf mains with his best crossover (I forget the term) with Sonicap Platinum bypass caps and No Rez.  I'd love to get something that matches for a cheap center channel I just picked up. 

Thanks!
Robert
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: chip on 9 Feb 2017, 08:57 pm
yeah I had the ninja upgrade on the ref 1.5s I had ....loved it.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 10 Feb 2017, 12:03 am
Danny,

Are you able to create an upgraded crossover for the old Reference 1 center channel like what Sean at Skiing Ninja used to have?  I have Ninja'd Reference 1 bookshelf mains with his best crossover (I forget the term) with Sonicap Platinum bypass caps and No Rez.  I'd love to get something that matches for a cheap center channel I just picked up. 

Thanks!
Robert

I think the Ref 1 Center was actually the same speaker as the Ref 2 floor standing model. It was just in a smaller cabinet on it's side.

And yes, I designed all new networks for those models.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: tortoiseman2542 on 10 Feb 2017, 02:53 am
I think the Ref 1 Center was actually the same speaker as the Ref 2 floor standing model. It was just in a smaller cabinet on it's side.

And yes, I designed all new networks for those models.

Is it best to call and discuss upgrades for the Reference 1 center or is that ok in here?

Thanks!
Robert
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 10 Feb 2017, 03:01 am
Is it best to call and discuss upgrades for the Reference 1 center or is that ok in here?

Thanks!
Robert

Either is fine.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: tortoiseman2542 on 10 Feb 2017, 07:35 pm
Either is fine.

Thanks Danny!

I'm looking for something sonically the same or similar to the high-end crossovers that Sean had for the Reference series to match what I have now.  I don't recall the specific network components unfortunately other than i paid extra for a Sonicap platinum bypass.  I also put NoRez in them as well.  I'd love to pick up similar crossovers with Sonicap platinum bypasses and NoRez.

Thanks!
Robert
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 10 Feb 2017, 07:43 pm
Thanks Danny!

I'm looking for something sonically the same or similar to the high-end crossovers that Sean had for the Reference series to match what I have now.  I don't recall the specific network components unfortunately other than i paid extra for a Sonicap platinum bypass.  I also put NoRez in them as well.  I'd love to pick up similar crossovers with Sonicap platinum bypasses and NoRez.

Thanks!
Robert

No problem. I supplied all of that stuff for Sean. I have it all in stock.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: tortoiseman2542 on 11 Feb 2017, 12:14 am
No problem. I supplied all of that stuff for Sean. I have it all in stock.

Is it possible to buy an assembled upgraded crossovers?  I can solder enough to hook it up but am to shakey to assemble one thanks to a neurological disorder. Obviously I know that would cost more.

Thanks!
Robert
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 11 Feb 2017, 01:00 am
Is it possible to buy an assembled upgraded crossovers?  I can solder enough to hook it up but am to shakey to assemble one thanks to a neurological disorder. Obviously I know that would cost more.

Thanks!
Robert

Yeah, I can do that also.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: tortoiseman2542 on 12 Feb 2017, 06:12 pm
Yeah, I can do that also.

Thanks Danny!  PM sent!

Robert
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: jpm on 8 Jul 2017, 05:39 pm
Danny - have you ever explored inside the KEF LS50 to see if they're holding anything back?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: OzarkTom on 8 Jul 2017, 06:51 pm
Danny - have you ever explored inside the KEF LS50 to see if they're holding anything back?

A crossover change would help, but the Omega 3HO Monitor's sounds better for slightly less money
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Jul 2017, 02:30 am
Danny - have you ever explored inside the KEF LS50 to see if they're holding anything back?

I have not.

But don't expect high end components at that price point. So the chance for improvements are high.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: ZimAhUm on 2 Feb 2018, 08:03 am
Introducing the level 1 upgrade package.

This improves any speaker, and is easy for the owner to perform the upgrade themselves.

1) Replace the binding posts with tube connectors. You can even leave your old binding posts and just parallel them to a set of tube connectors. The tube connectors mount easily through any cabinet wall regardless of the thickness. You simply drill a 7/16" diameter hole for each connector. The improvement over typical binding post cups is pretty significant with a level of clarity across the board. http://gr-research.com/electracabletubeconnectors.aspx  Even if you are using some of the highest quality binding posts on the market there is still improvement to be had by going to tube connectors.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/tubes2.jpg)



This is interesting and something I would try with my speakers.  They have awful, cheap binding posts.  Do you have any photos of a step by step installation of these or a manual of some kind?  I know each speaker would be different, but just wondering how most people do this.  Thanks for any info  :D
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 2 Feb 2018, 02:18 pm
Quote
This is interesting and something I would try with my speakers.  They have awful, cheap binding posts.  Do you have any photos of a step by step installation of these or a manual of some kind?  I know each speaker would be different, but just wondering how most people do this.  Thanks for any info  :D

Yes: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=94014.0
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: ZimAhUm on 2 Feb 2018, 04:41 pm
Yes: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=94014.0

Great, thanks  :thumb:
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: HAL on 2 Feb 2018, 04:49 pm
Here is a project Danny did with Behringer speakers that is still available for auditioning. They are somewhere in the cosmos. 

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=87808.0
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: ZimAhUm on 5 Feb 2018, 08:41 am
Here is a project Danny did with Behringer speakers that is still available for auditioning. They are somewhere in the cosmos. 

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=87808.0

Cool, thanks  :thumb:

Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 5 Feb 2018, 02:55 pm
Here is a project Danny did with Behringer speakers that is still available for auditioning. They are somewhere in the cosmos. 

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=87808.0

I've still got them. Maybe we can find a new group of flat earth guys to send them around to.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: neekomax on 6 Feb 2018, 03:03 am
I've still got them. Maybe we can find a new group of flat earth guys to send them around to.

Hmm, well, I don't know if I qualify as a 'flat-earther', but I certainly have my doubts about whether unmeasured/ unmeasurable things can be audible, and therefore a difference-making factor in audio gear. Is there a third camp between the true believers and flat earthers... say, the unwashed agnostics?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: S Clark on 6 Feb 2018, 03:25 am
Is there a third camp between the true believers and flat earthers... say, the unwashed agnostics?
There's always a place for those seeking auditory enlightenment.  Whether physical, metaphysical, or simply delusional, if you can hear it, then it's valid for you.  A key epiphany is when you realize that just because you can't hear it, that doesn't mean others can't.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: mlundy57 on 6 Feb 2018, 03:42 am
I found this comparison to be enlightening and well worth my time. Even though I know parts quality can have a performance difference in many things, bicycles, wheels, kayaks, paddles, etc. This was the first time I was able to listen to speakers where the only difference was quality of the crossover parts. Now my opinion is informed by my own experience and I don't have to rely on other people's opinions.

Give it a try.

Mike
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: neekomax on 6 Feb 2018, 03:46 am
I found this comparison to be enlightening and well worth my time. Even though I know parts quality can have a performance difference in many things, bicycles, wheels, kayaks, paddles, etc. This was the first time I was able to listen to speakers where the only difference was quality of the crossover parts. Now my opinion is informed by my own experience and I don't have to rely on other people's opinions.

Give it a try.

Mike

I'd be right pleased to do so.  :)
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 6 Feb 2018, 04:13 pm
Hmm, well, I don't know if I qualify as a 'flat-earther', but I certainly have my doubts about whether unmeasured/ unmeasurable things can be audible, and therefore a difference-making factor in audio gear. Is there a third camp between the true believers and flat earthers... say, the unwashed agnostics?

I tend to throw that term around loosely and some take it as a poke in the eye. But the guys that really fit the term are the guys that let preconceived beliefs get in the way of learning or listening.

And it is okay to have doubts. It is okay to be skeptic. Just don't let that get in the way of listening. Keep an open mind. 
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Wind Chaser on 9 Mar 2018, 08:24 am
My gut feeling is these might have some potential, but they come with some challenges...

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177273)

They are quite small so the bass is limited to 120 Hz or so. That was easy to take care of.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177274)

Even though they are spec'd up to 20 KHz, they could really benefit from the addition of a tweeter;
however that would involve a crossover, and there's not a lot of room for either one of those things.
 
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177275)

Each speakers contains two 2" BMR drivers. If I am not mistaken, the lower one I believe
operates between 120 ~ 150 Hz while the upper driver handles everything above 150 Hz. 

Might not be very practical or cost effective, but who knows? :lol:  Thoughts??
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Wind Chaser on 9 Mar 2018, 08:30 am
No project is too big.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/dannysproject.jpg)

Great picture! :lol:
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Mar 2018, 04:13 pm
My gut feeling is these might have some potential, but they come with some challenges...

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177273)

They are quite small so the bass is limited to 120 Hz or so. That was easy to take care of.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177274)

Even though they are spec'd up to 20 KHz, they could really benefit from the addition of a tweeter;
however that would involve a crossover, and there's not a lot of room for either one of those things.
 
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177275)

Each speakers contains two 2" BMR drivers. If I am not mistaken, the lower one I believe
operates between 120 ~ 150 Hz while the upper driver handles everything above 150 Hz. 

Might not be very practical or cost effective, but who knows? :lol:  Thoughts??


You can always send them over to me and I can measure and test them to see what there is to work with.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Wind Chaser on 9 Mar 2018, 11:36 pm
Danny, I’ll try to get them boxed up and out the door next week. They will be coming from Canada, so I’ll have to look into the bureaucratic procedure of doing this the right way so neither of us gets dinged for customs or tax upon delivery.

This address... 910 N. Jackson, Iowa Park, Texas 76367 USA ...is up to date?

John
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 10 Mar 2018, 12:47 am
Danny, I’ll try to get them boxed up and out the door next week. They will be coming from Canada, so I’ll have to look into the bureaucratic procedure of doing this the right way so neither of us gets dinged for customs or tax upon delivery.

This address... 910 N. Jackson, Iowa Park, Texas 76367 USA ...is up to date?

John

I can still receive shipments at that location.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Wind Chaser on 10 Mar 2018, 01:46 am
According to your website’s contact info, that’s your address. :wink:

http://gr-research.com/contact-us.aspx (http://gr-research.com/contact-us.aspx)

If however you have a more upto date address, I would prefer to use that.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 10 Mar 2018, 03:11 am
That one is still fine for receiving. I am still working out of that office for a little while longer. I have a much larger office and shop that I am still moving into, but I am just not all moved in yet.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: fdjslkgh on 7 Sep 2018, 02:06 pm
Danny, I've got some Rega Kytes on the way that seem to benefit from some mass damping of the enclosure. They're loosely filled already, if I install No-Rez on the sides, should I just leave the wool as-is?

Thanks
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 7 Sep 2018, 03:49 pm
Danny, I've got some Rega Kytes on the way that seem to benefit from some mass damping of the enclosure. They're loosely filled already, if I install No-Rez on the sides, should I just leave the wool as-is?

Thanks

It depends on the size of the speaker. Most of the time you can place the factory damping back in after lining it with No Rez for best results.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: synergy1 on 8 Jan 2019, 02:04 pm
Regular banana's will fit into the the receptacle on speaker with your binding posts right? I'd ruin my speaker cables should I cut off the factory banana, (ruin for resale that is.) I have rather pricey cables that is.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: synergy1 on 8 Jan 2019, 02:09 pm
does the speaker cabinet build need to be sized Bigger to accommodate  No Rez? If the factory insulation is put back on top the inner volume would appear by eye to reduced by the 1" no Rez and 1.5 inches of insulation. how's that work?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 8 Jan 2019, 05:42 pm
Regular banana's will fit into the the receptacle on speaker with your binding posts right? I'd ruin my speaker cables should I cut off the factory banana, (ruin for resale that is.) I have rather pricey cables that is.

Banana's fit fit right into the tube connectors, but it will not sound as good.

I don't think swapping out the ends of your cables will alter the resale value. Ends can be swapped on and off without issue. And you are upgrading the cables to work best with tube connectors. So some might consider that to be worth more.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 8 Jan 2019, 05:44 pm
does the speaker cabinet build need to be sized Bigger to accommodate  No Rez? If the factory insulation is put back on top the inner volume would appear by eye to reduced by the 1" no Rez and 1.5 inches of insulation. how's that work?

No, the No Rez will not alter the volume of the cabinet. While the barrier layer does take up air space, the foam layer slows down the flow of air in the box making it act as a lager box. So the end effect is close to a wash.

And you can still add back in some of the original insulation to further tune or tweak how it sounds.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: artur9 on 9 Jan 2019, 12:21 am
I am curious as to whether you managed to improved the CA Minx mentioned above?  And to what effect on the sound?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Jan 2019, 01:52 am
I am curious as to whether you managed to improved the CA Minx mentioned above?  And to what effect on the sound?

It would be really hard to say as to what could really be done with them. There is not much there to work with. And for not much money we already offer a really high quality small speaker design like that.

 http://gr-research.com/lgk10kit.aspx
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: mlundy57 on 9 Jan 2019, 02:08 am
It would be really hard to say as to what could really be done with them. There is not much there to work with. And for not much money we already offer a really high quality small speaker design like that.

 http://gr-research.com/lgk10kit.aspx

I can attest to the quality of these little speakers. In addition to having a pair of them myself, I have shown them at the Lone Star Audio Fest for three years. Everyone who heard them were blown away by their performance.

Mike
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 2 Apr 2019, 07:05 pm
Yes, standard banana plugs are the same size.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/stud1.jpg)

But you do loose quality passing the signal through the tip of the banana plug.

The male stud for the tube connectors is completely hollow. So your speaker wire slides all the way through to the end of it. This is three 16 gauge wires spiral wound. I think it equals almost 11 gauge.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/stud2.jpg)

Then just crimp the end, solder it and heat shrink it to seal it.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/stud3.jpg)

If you use the banana plug it puts your speaker cable a long way from the internal wire. And it puts a lot of material in the signal path that is not an ideal carrier for the signal.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/stud4.jpg)

There is clearly a difference in clarity if you use the male studs.

What is the contact resistance of this versus a normal binding post and banana plug connection?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 2 Apr 2019, 07:16 pm
What is the contact resistance of this versus a normal binding post and banana plug connection?

The performance difference these offer isn't about the resistance differences.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 2 Apr 2019, 07:50 pm
The performance difference these offer isn't about the resistance differences.
What else could possibly make a difference considering the impedances involved?  Have you measured the resistance?  Thanks.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Vedder323 on 2 Apr 2019, 08:05 pm
Danny,

Would be interesting to see your take on the Gallo Strada speakers. I have a pair I could send over for you to play with.

-Ron
New Record Day
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 2 Apr 2019, 08:32 pm
What else could possibly make a difference considering the impedances involved?  Have you measured the resistance?  Thanks.

Resistance isn't the issue. If it was only about resistance then a 5/16" steel bolt would sound about the same as a 16 gauge Copper wire. But it doesn't. Each time you insert something into the signal path there is some form of degradation of the signal. And larger pieces of large and small mass changes of dissimilar materials can really cause problems.

And often a low mass connector is much better than a high mass design. The ETI Research RCA ends function along the same principles. Read about them here:  http://www.eti-research.com.au/
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 2 Apr 2019, 08:35 pm
Danny,

Would be interesting to see your take on the Gallo Strada speakers. I have a pair I could send over for you to play with.

-Ron
New Record Day

I have found them to be pretty thin down low and hard to get them to play down low enough to reach a sub. I don't think there was any compensation for the step loss on the woofers either. That might be another reason for why they sound so thin. But they have nothing for surface area around the drivers and image great.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 2 Apr 2019, 08:37 pm
Tommy, I'd love to set you down in from of one of my audio systems for a day or two so you could hear differences in these things and many other things that you are resistant to accepting. Just swapping out a USB cable would change your world forever.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 2 Apr 2019, 08:42 pm
What else could possibly make a difference considering the impedances involved?  Have you measured the resistance?  Thanks.

Another something of interest.... Every person that I have had try tube connectors and have wired them in parallel to a set of binding posts so that they can swap between the two has reported an audible difference and a preference for the tube connectors.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better. -- bet you can't
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 2 Apr 2019, 09:33 pm
Tommy, I'd love to set you down in from of one of my audio systems for a day or two so you could hear differences in these things and many other things that you are resistant to accepting. Just swapping out a USB cable would change your world forever.
Danny,

I'd love to set you down in from of one of my audio systems for a day or two so you could hear what makes a difference and what doesn't.  I can also show you how easy it is to get someone to say there's a difference when it's not even possible.  As you probably know, I'm an EE with more than 30 years design experience in all kinds of things (commercial, industrial, military), especially audio.  Measurement equipment can tell the difference between 0.001% and 0.002% THD+N, but no human can.  Same goes for 120dB vs 130dB SNR.  Same for 0.01Ω vs 0.002Ω.  When someone tells me they can hear something that can't be measured, I'm beyond skeptical.  To me, the burden of proof is on the people making claims, especially those not substantiated in science.  I've seen some crazy things in my time, and some cross the line hard when it comes to ethics.  I have some training in psych as well, and understand expectation bias.  Placebo effect is another frequently overlooked issue.  Don't get me started on ABX tests (almost nobody seems to know how to do a proper test, or what qualifies as an adequate sample space), which would at least provide some, albeit weak proof of outrageous claims like "this AC power fuse sounds better".  That kind of nonsense usually comes with loads of conjecture, hyperbole, and rhetoric (and often the word "quantum") -- because the manufacturer can't prove any difference at all, nonetheless an improvement, which is always the claim.  No measurements, just talk.  Imagine if investigators went on feelings rather than evidence.  Are you going to AXPONA?  I'll be there demoing a surround system what could break some records:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=163293.0

-Tommy O
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better. -- bet you can't
Post by: jtwrace on 2 Apr 2019, 09:44 pm
Danny,

I'd love to set you down in from of one of my audio systems for a day or two so you could hear what makes a difference and what doesn't.  I can also show you how easy it is to get someone to say there's a difference when it's not even possible.  As you probably know, I'm an EE with more than 30 years design experience in all kinds of things (commercial, industrial, military), especially audio.  Measurement equipment can tell the difference between 0.001% and 0.002% THD+N, but no human can.  Same goes for 120dB vs 130dB SNR.  Same for 0.01Ω vs 0.002Ω.  When someone tells me they can hear something that can't be measured, I'm beyond skeptical.  To me, the burden of proof is on the people making claims, especially those not substantiated in science.  I've seen some crazy things in my time, and some cross the line hard when it comes to ethics.  I have some training in psych as well, and understand expectation bias.  Placebo effect is another frequently overlooked issue.  Don't get me started on ABX tests (almost nobody seems to know how to do a proper test, or what qualifies as an adequate sample space), which would at least provide some, albeit weak proof of outrageous claims like "this AC power fuse sounds better".  That kind of nonsense usually comes with loads of conjecture, hyperbole, and rhetoric (and often the word "quantum")--- because the manufacturer can't prove any difference at all, nonetheless an improvement, which is always the claim.  No measurements, just talk.  Imagine if investigators went on feelings rather than evidence.  Are you going to AXPONA?  I'll be there demoing a surround system what could break some records:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=163293.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=163293.0)

-Tommy O
:thumb:
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: marvda1 on 2 Apr 2019, 09:48 pm
tommy, you could come to lone star audio fest, danny will be there.
marvin
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 2 Apr 2019, 09:51 pm
https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/capturing-a-vibe/

"I can only imagine the angst this notion of capturing emotions must engender in our friends that believe everything can be measured."
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 2 Apr 2019, 09:55 pm
tommy, you could come to lone star audio fest, danny will be there.
marvin
When is it?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 2 Apr 2019, 09:56 pm
https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/capturing-a-vibe/

"I can only imagine the angst this notion of capturing emotions must engender in our friends that believe everything can be measured."
Reminds me how they called truth seekers “conspiracy theorist” in an attempt to squash the truth.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: marvda1 on 2 Apr 2019, 10:03 pm
When is it?

first weekend in may.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=162522.msg1735793#new
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Early B. on 2 Apr 2019, 10:03 pm
OK, you two have nothing to prove to one another. Both of you seem fully entrenched in your views, and no "meeting of the minds" is gonna change that. 

Audio is primarily an objective approach for the designer, but it's a totally subjective experience for the listener. If the placebo effect or expectation bias is actually proven to be the reason someone says it sounds better, then that's great! Any attempt to justify with measurements why someone likes what they hear represents a lack of understanding of science. Psychology is a science. Try measuring that.


 
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better. -- bet you can't
Post by: Danny Richie on 2 Apr 2019, 10:04 pm
Danny,

I'd love to set you down in from of one of my audio systems for a day or two so you could hear what makes a difference and what doesn't.  I can also show you how easy it is to get someone to say there's a difference when it's not even possible.  As you probably know, I'm an EE with more than 30 years design experience in all kinds of things (commercial, industrial, military), especially audio.  Measurement equipment can tell the difference between 0.001% and 0.002% THD+N, but no human can.  Same goes for 120dB vs 130dB SNR.  Same for 0.01Ω vs 0.002Ω.  When someone tells me they can hear something that can't be measured, I'm beyond skeptical.  To me, the burden of proof is on the people making claims, especially those not substantiated in science.  I've seen some crazy things in my time, and some cross the line hard when it comes to ethics.  I have some training in psych as well, and understand expectation bias.  Placebo effect is another frequently overlooked issue.  Don't get me started on ABX tests (almost nobody seems to know how to do a proper test, or what qualifies as an adequate sample space), which would at least provide some, albeit weak proof of outrageous claims like "this AC power fuse sounds better".  That kind of nonsense usually comes with loads of conjecture, hyperbole, and rhetoric (and often the word "quantum")--- because the manufacturer can't prove any difference at all, nonetheless an improvement, which is always the claim.  No measurements, just talk.  Imagine if investigators went on feelings rather than evidence.  Are you going to AXPONA?  I'll be there demoing a surround system what could break some records:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=163293.0

-Tommy O

I know where you're coming from and what you believe. I once thought along those lines too. Then back in about 2002 Dave Elledge showed up at my shop with some power cables that he swapped into my system and it changed everything.

I know all about the old placebo effects, physiological expectations, ABX comparisons, etc. I am even certified as a hypnotist.

All of that aside, if you can hear the difference between a early 80's cassette player and the latest digital gear or vinyl then you can hear the differences in a USB cable swap in my system. It won't matter what your expectations are. And if you can't hear the difference in those devices then you have no business being in this hobby.

And the measurement only engineers typically can't even tell me why all the different digital playback software's sound different. I have iTunes, Pure Music, Amarra, Audirvana, and SB Play. They only send out 1's and 0's right? But they all sound different.

Imagine if all we did was measure a system and not listen to it. Who needs music right? And whatever speaker measures the best will sound the best right? I can make two speakers measure exactly the same but sound very different.

Come down to Lone Star Audio Fest next month and we'll open those ears to a new reality.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better. -- bet you can't
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 2 Apr 2019, 10:20 pm
I know where you're coming from and what you believe. I once thought along those lines too. Then back in about 2002 Dave Elledge showed up at my shop with some power cables that he swapped into my system and it changed everything.

I know all about the old placebo effects, physiological expectations, ABX comparisons, etc. I am even certified as a hypnotist.

All of that aside, if you can hear the difference between a early 80's cassette player and the latest digital gear or vinyl then you can hear the differences in a USB cable swap in my system. It won't matter what your expectations are. And if you can't hear the difference in those devices then you have no business being in this hobby.

And the measurement only engineers typically can't even tell me why all the different digital playback software's sound different. I have iTunes, Pure Music, Amarra, Audirvana, and SB Play. They only send out 1's and 0's right? But they all sound different.

Imagine if all we did was measure a system and not listen to it. Who needs music right? And whatever speaker measures the best will sound the best right? I can make two speakers measure exactly the same but sound very different.

Come down to Lone Star Audio Fest next month and we'll open those ears to a new reality.
"They only send out 1's and 0's right? But they all sound different." -- No they don't, digital links either have errors or not, and typically when there are errors, the audio gets muted for protection against full scale glitching.  If you send a Word file over a better USB cable, is the grammar improved?

"I once thought along those lines too." -- Is that to imply that I haven't figured this stuff out yet?  This is the kind of pitch cult members use.

"Imagine if all we did was measure a system and not listen to it." -- Why do people even say such things?  Of course those who measure ALSO listen.  In fact, designers who do both rigorously and systematically learn the connections between what you measure and what you hear.  Those are the best designers.  Understanding the science and engineering behind it is required for optimal results.  Please don't tell me someone who learned circuits on YouTube (or by putting kits together) is as good of a equipment designer as an EE with both the degree AND the experience!

"some power cables that he swapped into my system and it changed everything" -- If you want to know my thought on power cables, read this:
https://audiophilereview.com/audiophile-news/can-power-cords-have-an-effect-on-an-audio-systems-sound.html

I'd like you to understand that I'm all for the truth.  Definitive, measurable, reliably provable truth.  As for my feelings on music, that's a different thing all together.  I listen daily and experience all the emotion other listeners do.  I'm also a musician, or at least I play one on TV.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 2 Apr 2019, 10:24 pm
first weekend in may.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=162522.msg1735793#new
Can't do it.  We typically do only one trade show/year in order to support our low margins and provide the customer with more value.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better. -- bet you can't
Post by: Danny Richie on 2 Apr 2019, 10:37 pm
"They only send out 1's and 0's right? But they all sound different." -- No they don't, digital links either have errors or not, and typically when there are errors, the audio gets muted for protection against full scale glitching.  If you send a Word file over a better USB cable, is the grammar improved?

There is also a lot of noise on the line that gets into the next level as well.

Quote
"I once thought along those lines too." -- Is that to imply that I haven't figured this stuff out yet?  This is the kind of pitch cult members use.

I wouldn't say that you haven't figured it out yet. That would imply that you lack the intelligence to understand it. You just haven't experienced the differences in this stuff yet.  Being skeptical is okay. Just don't be closed minded to it. I'm not unintelligent either and neither are my many customers that regularly swap out and compare everything from caps to cables.

Quote
"Imagine if all we did was measure a system and not listen to it." -- Why do people even say such things?  Of course those who measure ALSO listen.  In fact, designers who do both rigorously and systematically learn the connections between what you measure and what you hear.  Those are the best designers.  Understanding the science and engineering behind it is required for optimal results.  Please don't tell me someone who learned circuits on YouTube (or by putting kits together) is as good of a equipment designer as an EE with both the degree AND the experience!

I am one of those guys. I want to make the connection between what I hear and what I can measure. But I don't measure first and make an assumption on what I can't or can't hear. And everything that I design does start with measurements. However, I do listen. And sometimes differences can be quantified and measured and sometimes it isn't so easy.

Quote
"some power cables that he swapped into my system and it changed everything" -- If you want to know my thought on power cables, read this:
https://audiophilereview.com/audiophile-news/can-power-cords-have-an-effect-on-an-audio-systems-sound.html

Yeah, you've made those views quite clear all over the internet and on Facebook. However, I noticed significant differences in the sound of your amps by swapping out power cables, and conditioning.

Quote
I'd like you to understand that I'm all for the truth.  Definitive, measurable, reliably provable truth.  As for my feelings on music, that's a different thing all together.  I listen daily and experience all the emotion other listeners do.  I'm also a musician, or at least I play one on TV.

I agree with all of that. Now come listen with me.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 2 Apr 2019, 10:39 pm
Can't do it.  We typically do only one trade show/year in order to support our low margins and provide the customer with more value.

You don't have to exhibit. Just come down to listen, learn, and make new friends. It will be worth it on all accounts.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: S Clark on 2 Apr 2019, 10:39 pm
You guys aren't going to change each other's minds. Let it go. 
 :deadhorse:
I remember reading there are no differences in amps... so just buy the cheapest watts.  And if a speaker measures flat, it must be good, right? 
Cables are just wire.  Fine, but when you tell me I'm not hearing what I hear, you can shove it, as I'll trust my ears, no matter how bad they are, over your opinion.

But the original post was a statement that Danny could make your speakers sound better.  I can only speak to my experience, and it's true.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 2 Apr 2019, 10:42 pm
OK, you two have nothing to prove to one another. Both of you seem fully entrenched in your views, and no "meeting of the minds" is gonna change that. 

Audio is primarily an objective approach for the designer, but it's a totally subjective experience for the listener. If the placebo effect or expectation bias is actually proven to be the reason someone says it sounds better, then that's great! Any attempt to justify with measurements why someone likes what they hear represents a lack of understanding of science. Psychology is a science. Try measuring that.


 

It's totally OK to have these discussions.  There's no benefit from shutting them down.  It's gives people the chance to know each other better.  We're all music fans here, and audio fans as well.

I'm opposed to the "people like it, so who cares" attitude.  There are some major misconceptions out there that are better off dispelled, often propagated by manufacturers.  Isn't there anything out there you would consider "snake oil"?

Let's take cable lifters for example.  If the manufacturer says something like "these look cool", that's perfectly OK, but claiming that they'll somehow improve the sound (with no proof, because it's a lie) is simply not OK.  I don't know anyone that enjoys being lied to.  The fact is, if you claim to hear it, but it can't be measured (by any means), you're somehow biased.

Anyway, off to do some serious (seriously fun) listening....  ;D
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 2 Apr 2019, 10:46 pm
You guys go easy on Tommy. He has his beliefs and that's okay. Who among us has never been skeptical of the latest tweak? And he has always been civil to me. I can't wait to do some listening together with him. 
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 2 Apr 2019, 10:48 pm
You don't have to exhibit. Just come down to listen, learn, and make new friends. It will be worth it on all accounts.
Can't just pick up and go due to family obligations, but your invite is greatly appreciated.  Can you make it to AXPONA, even if it's just for one day?

We will definitely get together at some point, and maybe some collaboration will show people that just because we don't see everything the same way, doesn't mean we can't combine our creative ideas and make something amazing!
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 2 Apr 2019, 10:52 pm
You guys aren't going to change each other's minds. Let it go. 
 :deadhorse:
I remember reading there are no differences in amps... so just by the cheapest watts.  And if a speaker measures flat, it must be good, right? 
Cables are just wire.  Fine, but when you tell me I'm not hearing what I hear, you can shove it,l as I'll trust my ears, no matter how bad they are, over your opinion.

But the original post was a statement that Danny could make your speakers sound better.  I can only speak to my experience, and it's true.
"you can shove it" is a little extreme.  I argue with facts, not opinions.  We're just discussing stuff.  There's no need for animosity (or vulgarity).   :P
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 2 Apr 2019, 10:53 pm
You guys go easy on Tommy. He has his beliefs and that's okay. Who among us has never been skeptical of the latest tweak? And he has always been civil to me. I can't wait to do some listening together with him.
Thanks, Danny.  You're a true gentleman (:
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 2 Apr 2019, 10:53 pm
It's totally OK to have these discussions.  There's no benefit from shutting them down.  It's gives people the chance to know each other better.  We're all music fans here, and audio fans as well.

Yeah, we're fine. But we aren't going to convince anyone what can and can't be heard with talk. When we sit down and listen we can decide what we hear or don't hear.

Quote
I'm opposed to the "people like it, so who cares" attitude.  There are some major misconceptions out there that are better off dispelled, often propagated by manufacturers.  Isn't there anything out there you would consider "snake oil"?

We know there is some snake oil out there. Just look at Machina Dynamics.

Quote
Let's take cable lifters for example.  If the manufacturer says something "these look cool", that's perfectly OK, but claiming that they'll somehow improve the sound (with no proof, because it's a lie) is simply not OK.  I don't know anyone that enjoys being lied to.  The fact is, if you claim to hear it, but it can't be measured (by any means), you're somehow biased.

I'm pretty skeptical of some of that stuff, but I can't say what does or does not work for someone else. My best sounding speaker cables are pretty short and don't touch the floor. Better because they don't touch the floor? Or better because they are short? I'm going to go with short. 
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 2 Apr 2019, 10:59 pm
Can't just pick up and go due to family obligations, but your invite is greatly appreciated.  Can you make it to AXPONA, even if it's just for one day?

We will definitely get together at some point, and maybe some collaboration will show people that just because we don't see everything the same way, doesn't mean we can't combine our creative ideas and make something amazing!

I can't make it to Axpona right now. I have too much going on and some other obligations.

Maybe we will collaborate on some stuff. I like your solid engineering approach, but I might want to combine that with some known tweaks and try a few other things. I really feel like there is another level of performance ahead of you. And you aren't going to believe that either until you hear it.

I might just have to have you come down for a few days during the summer. I'll put you up if you can get here.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 2 Apr 2019, 11:05 pm
Another something of interest.... Every person that I have had try tube connectors and have wired them in parallel to a set of binding posts so that they can swap between the two has reported an audible difference and a preference for the tube connectors.
Just wanted to mention that some amps have VERY high damping factor.  This means adding even a few mΩ between the speaker (or test load) will significantly decrease damping factor.  If your scheme is inherently lower resistance, and I suspect it is, you're on to something.

By the way, we use two different kinds of binding posts these days.  Some are connected via "fast-on" (Dayton posts used on lower priced Maraschinos) and some are soldered on (Gold WBTs on MEGAs, for example).  This causes a measurable difference in damping factor.  Lots of listeners claim to hear even small differences in damping factor, especially when it's wide-band.  In fact, I believe the reason some say that damping factor isn't very important is because they are using amps that don't have any significant damping left above 1kHz.  More on that some other time....

Geez, just realized how hungry I am while writing this.  My stomach is growling!  Have a great rest-of-your-day.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: S Clark on 2 Apr 2019, 11:07 pm
I should explain my defensive attitude.  Whenever someone tells me that I don't hear what I have experienced, I find it dogmatic and insulting. 
If I am mistaken and you are saying that I can hear a difference in wires, or whatever accessory, then it appears that you have changed your position.  I agree that the "shove it" comment is rude.  But so is arrogance.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 2 Apr 2019, 11:08 pm
I can't make it to Axpona right now. I have too much going on and some other obligations.

Maybe we will collaborate on some stuff. I like your solid engineering approach, but I might want to combine that with some known tweaks and try a few other things. I really feel like there is another level of performance ahead of you. And you aren't going to believe that either until you hear it.

I might just have to have you come down for a few days during the summer. I'll put you up if you can get here.
That would be AWESOME!!

What town?  My middle daughter wants to visit her friend this summer, and she might live close.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 2 Apr 2019, 11:12 pm
That would be AWESOME!!

What town?  My middle daughter wants to visit her friend this summer, and she might live close.

GR Research
1716 Texowa Rd.
Iowa Park, TX  76367

I have two guest bedrooms.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 2 Apr 2019, 11:14 pm
I should explain my defensive attitude.  Whenever someone tells me that I don't hear what I have experienced, I find it dogmatic and insulting. 
If I am mistaken and you are saying that I can hear a difference in wires, or whatever accessory, then it appears that you have changed your position.  I agree that the "shove it" comment is rude.  But so is arrogance.
I appreciate you taking the time to write that.  Take a look at our circle here, and you'll see some commentary that goes along with the "hearing is everything" approach (not opposed to that):
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=174.0

I certainly don't expect the average listener to break out their $30,000 audio analyzer to see if their speakers are performing to spec!  OK, time for dinner, then music!
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 2 Apr 2019, 11:42 pm
Just wanted to mention that some amps have VERY high damping factor.  This means adding even a few mΩ between the speaker (or test load) will significantly decrease damping factor.  If your scheme is inherently lower resistance, and I suspect it is, you're on to something.

FYI, I just took some measurements of various binding posts that I have in stock. Some I won't name, but most I will.

Vampire's best .23 ohms.
Eachman Copper .65 ohms.
Some cheesy looking Copper binding posts from something .29 ohms.
Some imported binding posts from EP .23 ohms.
CMC pure Copper .17 ohms.
Some pure Silver coated Copper binding posts .17 ohms.

And this was measuring the binding post only from end to end. They can also have some solder come into play plus the resistance of the spade or banana plug that will increase that quite a bit.

I inserted a male tube connector into the female end and measured them both together and got .15 ohms. Both ends can take up to 10 gauge wire that will insert all the way to each other (almost) so that could reduce resistance further.

I then measured just my alligator clip ends connected together so I was measuring my measuring cables, and also got .15 ohms.

So yes, the tube connectors measure very low resistance.

Oh yeah, imagine the cumulative effect of binding posts in the signal path with several in the signal path.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: keantoken on 3 Apr 2019, 02:33 am
All of those resistance values are alarmingly high. If I got those results I would be checking my measurement setup. My Fluke 8800A (hope I got that right) does 4-wire measurements and I get just 0.1ohm from 2 Sparkfun alligator jumpers in series. So Sparkfun alligator jumpers get less resistance than high current connectors? Should we all be using alligator clips?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 3 Apr 2019, 02:16 pm
All of those resistance values are alarmingly high. If I got those results I would be checking my measurement setup. My Fluke 8800A (hope I got that right) does 4-wire measurements and I get just 0.1ohm from 2 Sparkfun alligator jumpers in series. So Sparkfun alligator jumpers get less resistance than high current connectors? Should we all be using alligator clips?

Mine also plug into the Clio using an RCA connector too. So they may have a little more in the mix.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: SCM on 8 Apr 2019, 06:07 pm
Hi Danny. Could you pop on over to a thread I have revisited for some crossover help ??

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=94886.new#new
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 8 Apr 2019, 08:38 pm
Hi Danny. Could you pop on over to a thread I have revisited for some crossover help ??

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=94886.new#new

Wow. Are you sure they are worth saving?

If all the drivers work they can be upgraded pretty significantly. You could re-use the inductors, but the rest of that should hit the garbage. Replace everything else including all of the wiring.

And it looks like there is no bracing in that box either. You might want to address that with some braces and No Rez.

If you let me know what you need. I can provide you with everything. Even just some inexpensive Erse poly caps and Lynk resistors would be a big upgrade.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 9 Apr 2019, 02:08 am
All of those resistance values are alarmingly high. If I got those results I would be checking my measurement setup. My Fluke 8800A (hope I got that right) does 4-wire measurements and I get just 0.1ohm from 2 Sparkfun alligator jumpers in series. So Sparkfun alligator jumpers get less resistance than high current connectors? Should we all be using alligator clips?
I thought the same thing.  Seems pretty obvious that he’s not using a milli-ohmmeter or a current source.

Using a current source is recommended if you don’t have a mΩmeter.  All you need in addition to a standard DMM is a bench power supply that has a current limiter. Hook a high wattage resistor in series with the connection being tested (like 8Ω).  This keeps the power supply from bottoming out. 1A works ok, but even better if you have a 10A supply (use lower resistance). Apply the current through the connection and measure the voltage across the connector.  Use V=IR, and there you have it!
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Apr 2019, 04:02 pm
I thought the same thing.  Seems pretty obvious that he’s not using a milli-ohmmeter or a current source.

Using a current source is recommended if you don’t have a mΩmeter.  All you need in addition to a standard DMM is a bench power supply that has a current limiter. Hook a high wattage resistor in series with the connection being tested (like 8Ω).  This keeps the power supply from bottoming out. 1A works ok, but even better if you have a 10A supply (use lower resistance). Apply the current through the connection and measure the voltage across the connector.  Use V=IR, and there you have it!

Yeah, that brought them back in line. Good thinking.

Vampire's best 8.17 ohms.
Eachman Copper 8.20 ohms.
Some cheesy looking Copper binding posts from something 8.19 ohms.
Some imported binding posts from EP 8.19 ohms.
CMC pure Copper 8.18 ohms.
Some pure Silver coated Copper binding posts 8.18 ohms.
Tube connector with male tube connector end 8.16 ohms.

The tube connectors still have less resistance and it was the only one in the group that I used a connector with. And I used them hollow and not with high gauge wire inside of them.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 9 Apr 2019, 05:07 pm
Yeah, that brought them back in line. Good thinking.

Vampire's best 8.17 ohms.
Eachman Copper 8.20 ohms.
Some cheesy looking Copper binding posts from something 8.19 ohms.
Some imported binding posts from EP 8.19 ohms.
CMC pure Copper 8.18 ohms.
Some pure Silver coated Copper binding posts 8.18 ohms.
Tube connector with male tube connector end 8.16 ohms.

The tube connectors still have less resistance and it was the only one in the group that I used a connector with. And I used them hollow and not with high gauge wire inside of them.
I'm guessing you mean mΩ, not Ω.  Is this correct?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: jtwrace on 9 Apr 2019, 05:25 pm

The tube connectors still have less resistance and it was the only one in the group that I used a connector with. And I used them hollow and not with high gauge wire inside of them.
So you're saying that .01 Ohm is > the calibrated range of the instrument that you're using to measure these at? 
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: keantoken on 9 Apr 2019, 05:57 pm
Did you measure the drop across just the 8ohm resistor so we can subtract that from the measurements? I would guess that resistor is at least 8.1ohm. Even 8.15 ohm is probably not large enough.

14ga wire has 0.0025ohms per FOOT, I would expect a good connector to not have a lot more than that.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Apr 2019, 06:12 pm
I'm guessing you mean mΩ, not Ω.  Is this correct?

No, that's ohms. I used an 8 ohm resistor.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Apr 2019, 06:15 pm
Did you measure the drop across just the 8ohm resistor so we can subtract that from the measurements? I would guess that resistor is at least 8.1ohm. Even 8.15 ohm is probably not large enough.

14ga wire has 0.0025ohms per FOOT, I would expect a good connector to not have a lot more than that.

Okay this is interesting. I measure 8.2 ohms of resistance for the resistor itself. And if I add a jumper and the tube connector then it drops to 8.16 ohms.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: keantoken on 9 Apr 2019, 06:49 pm
Hmm, it sounds like your tester may have a voltage offset problem. If you are using a DMM you can reverse the leads. You get 2 different voltages, then add them together and that cancels out the offset. If it's inside your resistance tester then you might want to invest in a new tester.

That measurement taken literally means the Electra tube connectors have negative resistance. If that's true then expect a knock on your door and very serious discussions with the military. I personally could find some great uses for a negative resistor.


EDIT: Also, if your resistor is hot during the measurement, and the tester leads are touching different metals (say copper on one, steel on the other), you may be getting offset from a thermocouple effect. Just shooting from the hip here though.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Apr 2019, 06:54 pm
Hmm, it sounds like your tester may have a voltage offset problem. If you are using a DMM you can reverse the leads. You get 2 different voltages, then add them together and that cancels out the offset. If it's inside your resistance tester then you might want to invest in a new tester.

That measurement taken literally means the Electra tube connectors have negative resistance. If that's true then expect a knock on your door and very serious discussions with the military. I personally could find some great uses for a negative resistor.

Yeah, I know there is something going on that's not right. That's why I said, this is interesting. And the measurements are consistent. And this is using my Clio (computer based) measuring system.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: keantoken on 9 Apr 2019, 07:02 pm
Are you measuring with an AC signal? If so then it might make sense if the connector inductance is swamping out the resistance. You could see that with a frequency sweep. To get around that you would lower the test frequency.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 9 Apr 2019, 07:02 pm
Hmm, it sounds like your tester may have a voltage offset problem. If you are using a DMM you can reverse the leads. You get 2 different voltages, then add them together and that cancels out the offset. If it's inside your resistance tester then you might want to invest in a new tester.

That measurement taken literally means the Electra tube connectors have negative resistance. If that's true then expect a knock on your door and very serious discussions with the military. I personally could find some great uses for a negative resistor.


EDIT: Also, if your resistor is hot during the measurement, and the tester leads are touching different metals (say copper on one, steel on the other), you may be getting offset from a thermocouple effect. Just shooting from the hip here though.
The technique (known current through the DUT) I described earlier in this thread allows use of a “modest” voltmeter (just needs to have a mV setting) and will still produce reasonably accurate measurements.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 9 Apr 2019, 07:02 pm
Are you measuring with an AC signal? If so then it might make sense if the connector inductance is swamping out the resistance. You could see that with a frequency sweep. To get around that you would lower the test frequency.
Use DC current!
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 9 Apr 2019, 07:07 pm
Did you measure the drop across just the 8ohm resistor so we can subtract that from the measurements? I would guess that resistor is at least 8.1ohm. Even 8.15 ohm is probably not large enough.

14ga wire has 0.0025ohms per FOOT, I would expect a good connector to not have a lot more than that.
You shouldn’t need to measure across the resistor at all. The only reason for the resistor is to keep the power supply from cutting out (thinking it’s shorted).  Yes, the result should be milli-Ω!
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Apr 2019, 07:21 pm
I'll see what I can figure out to get some actual resistance readings on this stuff. But back to what I said earlier. The audible difference is not due to the difference in resistance.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: jtwrace on 9 Apr 2019, 08:33 pm
The audible difference is not due to the difference in resistance.
What is it objectively related to?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Apr 2019, 08:38 pm
What is it objectively related to?

Specifically it is hard to say. There is a big difference in mass, type of conductive material, different masses and types of material and coatings, the dielectric material, etc. But it is not about resistance. If resistance was all that matters we could just use a 1/2" thick steel bolt.

But unquestionably there are audible differences. 
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 9 Apr 2019, 08:40 pm
I'll see what I can figure out to get some actual resistance readings on this stuff. But back to what I said earlier. The audible difference is not due to the difference in resistance.
Resistance is the only factor that it could be since there is not enough capacitance or inductance to make a difference. This is why I’m interested in measurement of the actual resistance before/after.  Proper equipment is a must for design verification.  I’d elaborate, but....   Let’s resume this discussion after AXPONA, which is what I need to focus on at the moment.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: jtwrace on 9 Apr 2019, 08:48 pm
Specifically it is hard to say. There is a big difference in mass, type of conductive material, different masses and types of material and coatings, the dielectric material, etc. But it is not about resistance. If resistance was all that matters we could just use a 1/2" thick steel bolt.

But unquestionably there are audible differences.
What were the design goals when the product was developed?  Usually there is something that one is trying to solve which leads to research.  So, how was that achieved? 
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Apr 2019, 08:50 pm
Resistance is the only factor that it could be since there is not enough capacitance or inductance to make a difference. This is why I’m interested in measurement of the actual resistance before/after.  Proper equipment is a must for design verification.  I’d elaborate, but....   Let’s resume this discussion after AXPONA, which is what I need to focus on at the moment.

No resistance is not a factor. Like I said, "If resistance was all that matters we could just use a 1/2" thick steel bolt."

Why not Brass and just use a larger size if it is only about resistance.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: S Clark on 9 Apr 2019, 08:51 pm
Resistance is the only factor that it could be since there is not enough capacitance or inductance to make a difference.
Seeking clarification--are you saying that all wires and connections that have the same RC&I are going to sound the same?   
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Apr 2019, 08:58 pm
What were the design goals when the product was developed?  Usually there is something that one is trying to solve which leads to research.  So, how was that achieved?

The given or known element was that using no binding post at all, with no break in the wire, yielded the best sound. And all binding posts (no matter the type) caused a noticeable loss in sound quality in various or multiple areas.

So the goal was to provide the least disruption to the signal and maintain close to the performance of having no break in the signal path yet still allow a removable speaker cable. So it was necessary to redesign that connection.

And this is the result of how that was achieved: http://gr-research.com/electracabletubeconnectors.aspx
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: jtwrace on 9 Apr 2019, 10:36 pm
The given or known element was that using no binding post at all, with no break in the wire, yielded the best sound. And all binding posts (no matter the type) caused a noticeable loss in sound quality in various or multiple areas.

So the goal was to provide the least disruption to the signal and maintain close to the performance of having no break in the signal path yet still allow a removable speaker cable. So it was necessary to redesign that connection.

And this is the result of how that was achieved: http://gr-research.com/electracabletubeconnectors.aspx (http://gr-research.com/electracabletubeconnectors.aspx)
OK, so it was all "measured" subjectively with your ears? 
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Apr 2019, 11:43 pm
OK, so it was all "measured" subjectively with your ears?

Isn't that what this hobby is all about? Listening....?

So far the feedback that I get on the tube connectors is consistent that they sound better than binding posts. And every single customer that has installed them in parallel with their binding posts, so that they can swap back and forth between the two, have all given feedback that the tube connectors sound better.

So far I'd have to say they have been quite a success.

The differences are greater on higher end systems, but even with mid-fi or budget level gear the feedback is the same.

Check this one out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLnBW3wuBSU&t=2s  Ron has some good ears.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: bferguson on 12 Jul 2019, 02:32 pm
Hi Danny

I've got a pair of Legacy Audio Legacy One's (superceded by Legacy Classic)....they are a little over 20 years old...I just replaced the woofer surrounds and was thinking about doing some upgrades...The cabinets are in great shape.  I'm going to be moving in the next couple of years, so I don't want to buy anything new.

are you familiar with these?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 12 Jul 2019, 03:54 pm
Hi Danny

I've got a pair of Legacy Audio Legacy One's (superceded by Legacy Classic)....they are a little over 20 years old...I just replaced the woofer surrounds and was thinking about doing some upgrades...The cabinets are in great shape.  I'm going to be moving in the next couple of years, so I don't want to buy anything new.

are you familiar with these?

I've worked with customers that have had various models from them in the past. The common thing that I have seen in those are pretty budget level parts, various colors of PVC jacketed common electrical wire, and a kris-cross of wiring and connections that look a bit like a rats nest.

I have pictures of some of them in my Legacy file folder.

There is a lot of up-side potential there if you want to go through them and upgrade the parts quality, wire, and connectors.

There are several ways to go about it and a lot of options as to how far to try and take them performance wise verses dollars spent. But that is one that I would consider replacing everything internally.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: jrosa64 on 13 Sep 2019, 02:50 pm
Hello Danny, my name is Jose Rosa. I have a pair of B&W 683 S1 that a friend just give it to me for free. I was listening to them and I noticed that the tweeter sounded very low. The others drivers sounded ok. I took both tweeters out and tested them on another speaker and the sounded normally. So I'm guessing the problem is with the crossover. Anyway, I read that you can recommend or make changes to the crossover with information and pictures of the crossovers. That is a great option for me because I live in Puerto Rico and shipping the speakers anywhere is very expensive and I don't have an option for warranty. For an acceptable amount I'm willing to make it happen. Thanks for your help in advanced.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 13 Sep 2019, 09:13 pm
Hello Danny, my name is Jose Rosa. I have a pair of B&W 683 S1 that a friend just give it to me for free. I was listening to them and I noticed that the tweeter sounded very low. The others drivers sounded ok. I took both tweeters out and tested them on another speaker and the sounded normally. So I'm guessing the problem is with the crossover. Anyway, I read that you can recommend or make changes to the crossover with information and pictures of the crossovers. That is a great option for me because I live in Puerto Rico and shipping the speakers anywhere is very expensive and I don't have an option for warranty. For an acceptable amount I'm willing to make it happen. Thanks for your help in advanced.

It is odd that they would sound that way. Those are usually voiced a bit hot in the top end.

It sounds like something has failed somewhere.

If it were simply a balance issue then I'd have you draw out the schematic and values used I can give you recommendations as to what to change to bring the level up or down.

But I have the feeling that something else is the issue.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: jrosa64 on 13 Sep 2019, 09:33 pm
This weekend I'm going to disassemble one of them to inspect it. I can share pictures so you can see if something is damage.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: jrosa64 on 14 Sep 2019, 03:07 pm
Here are the pictures of the HF/MF Crossover. I also connect the tweeter to the MID connectors for a few seconds and it sounded ok. So for sure there is something with some components in crossover.



(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198783)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198784)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198785)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198786)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198782)

 :lol:

Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: eichlerera1 on 14 Sep 2019, 04:44 pm
Dan,

I have a pair of Hales Signature II speakers.
They feature massive external crossovers.
I've had them for close to 30 years and wonder whether the caps need to be replaced (and upgraded).
The speakers sound great but the age is a minor concern.

Have you ever worked on these puppies? (especially opening up the crossover enclosures).

Paul Galli
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 14 Sep 2019, 05:02 pm
Here are the pictures of the HF/MF Crossover. I also connect the tweeter to the MID connectors for a few seconds and it sounded ok. So for sure there is something with some components in crossover.

Nothing looks burned up or anything, but there is likely a failure somewhere there if the tweeter works on the mid circuit but not too well on the tweeter circuit.

If you want you can send me those crossovers and I can measure the parts on them and figure out what failed.

Then you might want to upgrade some of those caps and resistors (the resistors are real cheesy) and then re-install it all.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 14 Sep 2019, 05:04 pm
Dan,

I have a pair of Hales Signature II speakers.
They feature massive external crossovers.
I've had them for close to 30 years and wonder whether the caps need to be replaced (and upgraded).
The speakers sound great but the age is a minor concern.

Have you ever worked on these puppies? (especially opening up the crossover enclosures).

Paul Galli

I remember those speakers. I think they used forth order filters on everything. And they were built to a price point so the parts quality was likely fairly budget level across the board. So upgrading some of them wouldn't be a bad idea.

Post some pictures of them if you want and let's see what you have to work with.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: eichlerera1 on 14 Sep 2019, 05:56 pm
I remember those speakers. I think they used forth order filters on everything. And they were built to a price point so the parts quality was likely fairly budget level across the board. So upgrading some of them wouldn't be a bad idea.

Post some pictures of them if you want and let's see what you have to work with.

The crossovers use 2nd order filters in a Butterworth topology.
Solen and Wondercap polypropolene caps and Solen 14 gauge air core inductors are used throughout.
Looks like Paul Hales didn't compromise on his design!

Here is Robert Harley's definitive review on this speaker if you want to learn more.
https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/791hales/index.html
https://www.stereophile.com/content/hales-audio-system-two-signature-loudspeaker-page-2

There are some great photos on google. (better than I could provide)

Not sure I need to do anything since they sound great.
Just concerned about the age of the electronics since the basic components seem top notch (for the era)...

Paul Galli
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 14 Sep 2019, 09:20 pm
The crossovers use 2nd order filters in a Butterworth topology.
Solen and Wondercap polypropolene caps and Solen 14 gauge air core inductors are used throughout.
Looks like Paul Hales didn't compromise on his design!

Here is Robert Harley's definitive review on this speaker if you want to learn more.
https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/791hales/index.html
https://www.stereophile.com/content/hales-audio-system-two-signature-loudspeaker-page-2

There are some great photos on google. (better than I could provide)

Not sure I need to do anything since they sound great.
Just concerned about the age of the electronics since the basic components seem top notch (for the era)...

Paul Galli

Oh yeah, I remember those. I built some speakers using those Dynaudio drivers back when I was a hobbyist.

I'd keep the inductors and just upgrade the caps, resistors, wire, and binding posts (with tube connectors). It just depends on how far you want to take them.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 17 Sep 2019, 04:17 pm
This weeks Tuesday Tech Talk is on this subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3x4KL9R7_g
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: MarvinTheMartian on 21 Sep 2019, 03:18 pm
Danny:
Have you ever experimented with Sandy Grossman’s ( Golden Ear )  idea of balanced passive crossovers ?
My left brain states, can’t possibly make a difference,  but my right brain asks, can splitting the X-over function across two smaller units improve … ?
… distortion … total cost … tolerance effects … amplifier loading   …. etc. etc. etc.  darn right brain

At work I am strictly digital asic layout, so I asked our analog DAC/ADC design crew the same question.
The immediate response was definitely left brain, but one sleep later and right side alternatives started coming in.
Mostly,  Depends, Possibly …        ( Where have I heard that before? Analog will never answer with a definitive yes or no : )
… large target values vs available components  … precision of smaller values
One ‘polygon pusher’ even set up a spice simulation, but the results were inconclusive because only a ‘small signal’ driver model was available.

Left or Right ?

THX for the Tech Talk’s. Now I look forward to Tuesdays almost as much as Fridays. Shawn
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: jrosa64 on 28 Oct 2019, 09:09 pm
Nothing looks burned up or anything, but there is likely a failure somewhere there if the tweeter works on the mid circuit but not too well on the tweeter circuit.

If you want you can send me those crossovers and I can measure the parts on them and figure out what failed.

Then you might want to upgrade some of those caps and resistors (the resistors are real cheesy) and then re-install it all.


Got my crossovers back from Danny. Beautiful work, as expected.  Now the speakers sound amazing. Next project would be No-Rez.  Thanks Danny for your work. 
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: bill70 on 28 Nov 2019, 03:26 am
have you done any mods. on Klipsch Hershey?, Ive notice that older movies I can understand the dialog with out any problems but newer movies, the dialog Channel   is some times very difficult to understand
I use my Klipsch Hershey for the center channel so I would be interested in perfecting the dialog frequency range
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 28 Nov 2019, 04:42 pm
have you done any mods. on Klipsch Hershey?, Ive notice that older movies I can understand the dialog with out any problems but newer movies, the dialog Channel   is some times very difficult to understand
I use my Klipsch Hershey for the center channel so I would be interested in perfecting the dialog frequency range

I have not done any upgrades for that model.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: HAL on 28 Nov 2019, 05:37 pm
Helped a friend update a pair of mid '70s K-Horns with better parts.  Made a big difference in sounds quality for the better.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: rdkusher on 29 Nov 2019, 02:28 am
have you ever measured and done any mods to the jbl studio 530?they are going cheap right now and look to have a lot of potential.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 29 Nov 2019, 09:34 am
JBL Studio 530 crossover

https://hardforum.com/threads/best-speaker-ever.1897170/

Rotated, resized and optimized

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=206037&size=huge)

Too much components and complex crossover in a cheap loudspeaker -> much money to invest I think. Maybe to upgrade only the tweeter section? and the electrolytics to spend money. And No Rez too.


Updated: uploading the image again.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 29 Nov 2019, 10:07 am
Without measurements -for now- I would only opt for the above, improve some components, increase the rigidity of the box, speaker connectors, wires ...
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: rdkusher on 29 Nov 2019, 03:59 pm
i did find a review on avhub.com with fairly extensive measurements.sorry, i couldn't post a link.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 29 Nov 2019, 04:10 pm
https://www.avhub.com.au/product-reviews/hi-fi/jbl-studio-530-loudspeakers-review-test-467624

-> [PDF] https://i.nextmedia.com.au/Assets/jbl_studio_530_loudspeakers_review_test.pdf

(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/JBL-Studio-530-frequency.png) (http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/JBL-Studio-530-frequency.png)

(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/JBL-Studio-530-frequency-composite.png) (http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/JBL-Studio-530-frequency-composite.png)
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: rdkusher on 29 Nov 2019, 05:19 pm
thanks for posting the links.what is your take on this set of measurements?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 29 Nov 2019, 05:26 pm
More measures are missing, such as only the tweeter, the impedance and phase graph and the CSD. And, most importantly, the frequency response at the listening point in your room. If it is in the near field everything is easier.

It is pretty good. With a slight answer in "V" that rockers -JBL lovers- like but that I would soften.

I would first try to flatten the answer without abusing, focusing on the tweeter. With a minimum phase PEQ in a good software player.

First brute attack with an only filter at 8 kHz. -3 dB and Q=0.8 (proportional aka RBJ filter).

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Parametric_Equalizer

(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/JBL-Studio-530-frequency-rephase-peq-minimum-3db.png) (http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/JBL-Studio-530-frequency-rephase-peq-minimum-3db.png)

Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 29 Nov 2019, 05:31 pm
Mine modded KEF Q100:

* https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/minimum-phase-vs-linear-phase.8762/page-7#post-225351

* https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/minimum-phase-vs-linear-phase.8762/post-253826
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: cewill99 on 14 Dec 2019, 04:49 pm
Danny has created a new crossover for my KEF 102.2's

These were made in 1995. I have owned them for the last 15 years.

They do sound much better that they ever have.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202015)
Front of the speaker

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202014)
Old Crossover

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202016)
New crossover, first attempt to build one. Picture missing huge coil for the woofer


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202017)
Drivers removed, Back of mid/tweeter is aluminum shell.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202018)
Back of cabinet with woofer. Cabinets are about 1.25' thick


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202019)
Tube connectors installed


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202020)
Current freq response.




Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 14 Dec 2019, 06:18 pm
I guess the two speaker connectors work. Have you noticed much improvement with the new ones? By the way, in Europe I have not seen them anywhere!

https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649176604-kef-reference-1022-kube/images/904140/

(https://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/large/904140-kef-reference-1022-kube.png)

[PDF] https://us.kef.com/pub/media/pdf/Reference_Series_Models_101_2_and_102_2.pdf

No Rez too?

PS: this week I wanted to change the cheap Bennic resistor of the KEF Q100 tweeter with Mills 5 watts but the other person could not be there and thus verify if we notice the difference between the two and how much.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: cewill99 on 14 Dec 2019, 08:15 pm
I didn't put any No Res in the cabinets. The cabinet is thick enough. When tapping on them they are very solid.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 14 Dec 2019, 08:33 pm
I wrote the question before adding the image in which thick walls of chipboard are appreciated.

But... I am surprised that it weighs so little, only 11 Kg.

http://gr-research.com/electracabletubeconnectors.aspx

(http://gr-research.com/pics/pairpic.jpg)

(http://gr-research.com/pics/mountedview.jpg)

Do you notice the difference? With very good recordings with high dynamic range (DR). Like I have listened to hours ago:

MFSB - The Best Of MFSB (Love Is The Message) (1995), CD, Legacy / Epic / Sony, Europe
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/music/6958-playing-listening-post6008879.html  DR13
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: oly on 19 Dec 2019, 06:50 pm
My compliments to GR-Research and Danny for assessing my Dali Option 2 speaker and recommending the optimal upgrades.  I have no prior experience with assembling a cross over network or even reading a wiring schematic.  But after watching a number of You Tube videos and especially the Klipsch upgrade series on New Day Record I felt I could do it.  Finding a way to get the cross over components laid out on a board that would fit inside my small speaker cabinet was the most challenging part for me, but it all worked out.  It may not be the prettiest of work, but it was my first attempt, and everything worked!   It probably only took me 4 hours total time to complete the upgrade start to finish.  So for those of you that may be wondering if the effort and (small) cost of doing the upgrade yourself, I'd say go for it.  There are lots of members at AudioCircle that no doubt could provide some help if you have a question.

For my speaker upgrade, I couldn't be happier with how they turned out.   There was a very noticeable improvement in sound.  In addition to the cross over components, I installed the No-Rez inside the cabinet, and added a 3/4 inch dowel inside the cabinet to brace the side walls.   I also replaced the Dali speaker terminals with the Tube Connectors.  And on this point, I'd highly recommend them.  Even the "high quality" Dali terminals are nothing more than inexpensive plated cast metal - a lot of questionable material for the signal to pass through.  The tube connectors are the next best thing to hard wiring the speaker cables from your amplifier to the network board.  The way I looked at it, why use relatively expensive speaker cables only to connect them to very low-cost terminals on the speaker cabinet.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: cujobob on 22 Dec 2019, 06:36 pm
i did find a review on avhub.com with fairly extensive measurements.sorry, i couldn't post a link.

I sent a pair to Danny for suggestions in the last few days. It might be a while, but I’m hoping the driver quality is sufficient to take the speaker to another level.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: WC on 22 Dec 2019, 07:13 pm
I would be interested also. I have two pair of Studio 530’s in my Home theater.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: cujobob on 22 Dec 2019, 09:48 pm
I would be interested also. I have two pair of Studio 530’s in my Home theater.

I have a small theater of 530s and a 520C which I really enjoy. I was able to pick up a pair with a coupon code for $260, so putting a bit towards mods doesn’t bother me at all. It wouldn’t be difficult to go back and forth between the two at some point down the line.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: WC on 23 Dec 2019, 03:14 am
Cujobob,

Seems like we have similar home theaters. I also have a Studio 520C. I got the 520C as a christmas present last year. Picked up the Studio 530s at two separate times during the year for $419 and $299 a pair. Currently, I am collecting materials for a pair of sealed 15" Rythmik servo subs. Be interested to see what Danny can do to it. There are a lot of parts to the 530 crossover, so it may not be an inexpensive fix.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: nlitworld on 24 Dec 2019, 02:24 pm
So I know there has been mods on the bookshelf Klipsch line, but has anyone tweaked with the floorstanding models at all? I have a set of rp5000 and with all this talk of improvement I can't help but wonder the possibilities.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 24 Dec 2019, 05:07 pm
So I know there has been mods on the bookshelf Klipsch line, but has anyone tweaked with the floorstanding models at all? I have a set of rp5000 and with all this talk of improvement I can't help but wonder the possibilities.

One of their floor standing models just arrived.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: rdkusher on 24 Dec 2019, 10:59 pm
I sent a pair to Danny for suggestions in the last few days. It might be a while, but I’m hoping the driver quality is sufficient to take the speaker to another level.
be sure and let us know how it turns out.they are actually surprisingly nice sounding speakers especially for the sale prices.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: cujobob on 7 Jan 2020, 01:49 pm
be sure and let us know how it turns out.they are actually surprisingly nice sounding speakers especially for the sale prices.

Danny didn’t recommend any modifications for these as the cabinets are so cramped inside (not enough space for crossover modification) and the back of the compression driver isn’t easily accessible. The response is pretty good but drops after 15 kHz. There was some ringing in the lower range of the compression driver’s range (between 1-2 kHz).

I’m disappointed they’re so difficult to work on, but on the bright side... they’re pretty good in stock form and the measurements back it up. I’ll try and post the measurements when I can get around to it.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: chad on 31 Jan 2020, 06:46 pm
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=167818.msg1780418#new

I've been officially referred to you, Danny.  Do you happen to know the specs for capacitors (completely unlabeled) used in Soliloquy 5.3 speakers?  Perhaps you can share a way to determine this through measurement?  Thank you.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 31 Jan 2020, 10:36 pm
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=167818.msg1780418#new

I've been officially referred to you, Danny.  Do you happen to know the specs for capacitors (completely unlabeled) used in Soliloquy 5.3 speakers?  Perhaps you can share a way to determine this through measurement?  Thank you.

I designed new networks for their model 63 and 8.2, but no others.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: KMPLSV on 1 Feb 2020, 10:48 am
I sure hope so! I've been led her by my quest to find someone who still does mods for the BIC DV62si bookshelf speakers!
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Rippedgeek on 4 Feb 2020, 08:54 am
Danny, this is all pretty new and completely fascinating to me.  I am really enjoying the New Record Day videos and am learning so much.

Have you ever worked on the Focal Aria 948 speakers?  I have a pair, and I enjoy them immensely... but you've now created an itch where there was none, and I want it scratched!

Thanks
Rip

Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 5 Feb 2020, 03:32 am
Danny, this is all pretty new and completely fascinating to me.  I am really enjoying the New Record Day videos and am learning so much.

Have you ever worked on the Focal Aria 948 speakers?  I have a pair, and I enjoy them immensely... but you've now created an itch where there was none, and I want it scratched!

Thanks
Rip

I used to be a dealer for Focal drivers and I have worked on numerous models, but not that one.

I do know that they leave a lot on the table (performance wise).
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Rippedgeek on 5 Feb 2020, 06:04 am
I expected nothing less than that.  I have searched everywhere I could think of and couldn't find any information on how to open the Aria 948's.  They are so beautifully crafted and really well put together, so I'm a little scared to try and get inside them, but I do want to send you a photo of the crossover. 

On the other hand your open baffle speakers must have some special magnets in them, because they're pulling my imagination in from across the other side of the world.  I can only imagine what it would cost to send them to New Zealand, but I'm already contemplating the sale of my Focal Aria 948's - provided your NX-Oticas or (if I win the lottery) the NX-Treme can even be shipped here.

Thanks for the response, by the way.

Riaan
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 6 Feb 2020, 05:22 pm
We can ship them to you.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: jtwrace on 7 Feb 2020, 01:59 am
Danny, when can you send a pair of your speakers to Amir for a full suite of Klippel measurements with and without Tube Connectors? 
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Endo2112 on 7 Feb 2020, 03:41 am
What would be the point, the flat earthers at ASR think all wire sounds the same!!

Nice try though

Don
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 8 Feb 2020, 02:29 pm
Danny, when can you send a pair of your speakers to Amir for a full suite of Klippel measurements with and without Tube Connectors?

Klippel measurements of tube connectors?  :lol:
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: nlitworld on 8 Feb 2020, 02:43 pm
Hey Danny,
You recently put out a short clip discussing your new crossover kit for the Klipsch rp8000f. Would that same new kit work on the smaller 5000 model as well? Basically same speaker except with 5.25" drivers instead of 8" and slightly smaller cabinet size. I would imagine that if the 8000 model suffered from that large of crossover dysphoria issue, the smaller speaker would do the same.

-Lloyd
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 8 Feb 2020, 03:14 pm
Hey Danny,
You recently put out a short clip discussing your new crossover kit for the Klipsch rp8000f. Would that same new kit work on the smaller 5000 model as well? Basically same speaker except with 5.25" drivers instead of 8" and slightly smaller cabinet size. I would imagine that if the 8000 model suffered from that large of crossover dysphoria issue, the smaller speaker would do the same.

-Lloyd

If the drivers are different then the filters would be different as well.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 12 Feb 2020, 07:16 pm
Hi Danny,

Would Wharfedale Linton 85th Anniversary speakers be a good candidate for you to do a crossover upgrade and or re-design?  I got the idea these might be okay for a second system I'm thinking of putting together.  I was reading a Stereophile review of Schiit Aegir amps that I'm thinking of using in this system, and the reviewer said he liked the the way that amp and these speakers work together.  I take all reviews with a grain of salt, and I'm not decided on anything yet and open to all suggestions.  If I had a workshop and tools, I would most definitely want GR speakers.

Thanks,
Jeff

https://www.stereophile.com/content/wharfedale-linton-heritage-loudspeaker

https://www.musicdirect.com/speakers/Wharfedale-Linton-85th-Anniversary-Bookshelf-Speakers-with-Stands?variant=WWFLINTONSM&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpZOHttnM5wIVoB6tBh1CGgE6EAQYASABEgLGtfD_BwE


Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 12 Feb 2020, 09:52 pm
Would Wharfedale Linton 85th Anniversary speakers be a good candidate for you to do a crossover upgrade and or re-design?

They might be. I wouldn't expect any top level parts in them at that price point.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 12 Feb 2020, 10:45 pm
Right, I would expect the crossover parts would be cheap junk almost.  Maybe the drivers even aren't worth the trouble to upgrade the crossovers?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 13 Feb 2020, 12:08 am
Right, I would expect the crossover parts would be cheap junk almost.  Maybe the drivers even aren't worth the trouble to upgrade the crossovers?

I haven't had any over here and really couldn't tell.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Freo-1 on 13 Feb 2020, 03:12 am
Danny,


I've had these speakers since 2013, and they sound terrific.  Having said that, am interested in what would you recommend for improvement:


https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=160327.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=160327.0)



Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 13 Feb 2020, 03:35 am
Danny,


I've had these speakers since 2013, and they sound terrific.  Having said that, am interested in what would you recommend for improvement:


https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=160327.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=160327.0)

I'd have to know more about your room and application.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Freo-1 on 13 Feb 2020, 03:58 am
Well, the room is open concept, where the living room opens into the kitchen.  It's a Florida house, so it has 10 ft ceilings. The speakers are 2 feet from a side wall, and one foot from the rear wall.  The left wall only come out about 3 feet, then opens into an entry way that is roughly six feet wide.  The floors are hardwood/tile, and has leather furniture.  Could provide dimensions/pics offline if needed.


Not quite sure about application.  They are used for music/television, and two channel home entertainment. The electronics are a pair of Devialet D-Premier integrated amps, which output 500 watts per channel @ 6 ohms.  Also occasionally use tube amps that are either 80 watts or 110 watts.


I really like these speakers, and have not felt the need to replace them.  However, given their age, if improvement can be had, I'm all in.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 13 Feb 2020, 03:18 pm
T+A Criterion TB 160

Optimized. Click on image -> Huge


German review

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204580) (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204580&size=huge)


http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-225-3889.html

First crossover

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204581) (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204581&size=huge)


Second crossover

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204582) (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204582&size=huge)


Rear. Binding posts.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204583) (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204583&size=huge)


Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Freo-1 on 13 Feb 2020, 04:29 pm
Thanks, Maty!


Some good background information here.  The crossovers look pretty involved.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 13 Feb 2020, 05:05 pm
Danny, I've decided the Wharfedale Linton speakers I mentioned above are too small for the room, which is a family room with adjoining kitchen.  15' wide 25' long 9' ceiling, speakers go on the 15' end of the family room, kitchen is at the opposite end.

I've always been attracted to Klipsch Heritage speakers, maybe because I'm 68 years old and wanted speakers like those when young.  I followed Tyson's Forte III upgrade thread with interest, and am thinking now about buying a pair of those.  You posted in that thread that you might put together an upgrade package for the Forte III.  Is that for sure going to happen?   
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 13 Feb 2020, 06:53 pm
I've always been attracted to Klipsch Heritage speakers, maybe because I'm 68 years old and wanted speakers like those when young.  I followed Tyson's Forte III upgrade thread with interest, and am thinking now about buying a pair of those...

Klipsch Forte III - $ 4,000

Discarding the OB (you need a lot of space to the three walls with the GR-Research biggers), I would buy some KEF floorstanding.

* KEF R700 or the new KEF R7.

* KEF R11.

In my case I would buy the R700 ($ 900 x2) now that they are liquidating them. Better yet, that Danny bought them and made all improvements! With new crossover.

If your listening distance is very large, KEF R11.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Tyson on 13 Feb 2020, 06:59 pm
The Forte IIIs sound better than the KEF's.  Much, much better.  IMO.

And the Forte IIIs you can pick up as "open box" for $2600 or so:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Klipsch-Forte-III-Heritage-Distressed-Oak-Speaker-AUTHORIZED-DEALER-2000-list/123689278766?hash=item1ccc749d2e:g:vzwAAOSwoahcukY7
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 13 Feb 2020, 07:09 pm
It was assumed that before he would go to a store and listen to both and thus have an idea of its sound.

$ 2,600 is very atractive price!

But

[Big IMG, link] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/JkUAAOSwLtxcukZG/s-l1600.jpg



NRC Measurements: KEF R11 Loudspeakers

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2147:nrc-measurements-kef-r11-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

-> Total harmonic distortion + noise graphs
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Tyson on 13 Feb 2020, 07:47 pm
It was assumed that before he would go to a store and listen to both and thus have an idea of its sound.

$ 2,600 is very atractive price!

But

[Big IMG, link] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/JkUAAOSwLtxcukZG/s-l1600.jpg



NRC Measurements: KEF R11 Loudspeakers

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2147:nrc-measurements-kef-r11-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

-> Total harmonic distortion + noise graphs

Don't get me wrong, I like the sound of those speakers.  Just like the modded Forte's better. 

I will say though, that the R11 is better built from the factory.  The bracing and internal structure is WAY better than the unbraced Forte III.

On the other hand, the Forte is 99db efficient and the R11 is only 90db efficient.  If you're going to use lower powered amps at all, the Forte will have a big advantage there.  And you can always add bracing to the Forte (like I did). 
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 13 Feb 2020, 08:17 pm
Only I can said that I have a cheap KEF Q100 5.25" coaxial. After my cheap mods (I am not done yet, because I am going step by step to check if the modifications involve sound improvement) they sound much betterrrrrrrrrrrrrr than the originals. KEF 5.25" Uni-Q is a very good driver but KEF save money in everything else.

Of course, bracing + No Rez too the new speakers. Crossover has cheap components. Zvu improved the R300 with new crossover -> better spinorama than original.

Just now: Ángel Cabrera - Cabrera plays Debussy (2014) PlayClassics, Master. TRT sound (calibration 2.0f) 2020 {24-96} [FLAC]  DR15

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/music/6958-playing-listening-874.html#post6083053

- The End -
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 13 Feb 2020, 08:29 pm
Like Tyson says, discounted Forte IIIs are available and that's the way I'd buy them, I've been receiving notifications from HiFi Shark for a few months and seeing good deals on undamaged ones.  Also thinking of KEF, Elac, PSB.  For this room I will seldom sit down to listen, that I will continue to do in my upstairs music room with OB speakers.  Currently there's a fairly mediocre setup that my wife listens to while working in the kitchen and I'm looking to upgrade it, and then I'll use it more while downstairs doing things also.  So sitting in the sweet spot with perfect imaging is not as important.  But still important if I do sit down  :thumb:

Maty says Danny bought R700s and made improvements with new crossovers.  I'd like to know if Danny has an upgrade package for them.  I did a search in the GR forums and didn't find it.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 13 Feb 2020, 08:51 pm
KEF SP1632 driver, from old KEF R series.

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/324975-kef-r300-playground-measurements-raw-drivers-post5490728.html

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/324975-kef-r300-playground-measurements-raw-drivers-post5491637.html

and

http://www.audioexcite.com/?p=3522

http://www.audioexcite.com/?page_id=3614


The easiest, the one that Danny recommends, has surely heard them at the fairs / shows, although perhaps in rooms without proper conditioning.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: DeeJayBump on 13 Feb 2020, 09:20 pm
...
Maty says Danny bought R700s and made improvements with new crossovers.  I'd like to know if Danny has an upgrade package for them.  I did a search in the GR forums and didn't find it.

My sense is that Maty meant IF Danny were to develop mods/upgrades/crossover for them, not that he [Danny] already has.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 13 Feb 2020, 09:29 pm
Yes, Maty has a way with words.  Appreciate your input Maty on the Kef R700s.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 13 Feb 2020, 09:34 pm
Off topic

English is not my first or second language. Spanish and Catalan are the first.

My town: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarragona

More than two thousand years before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarraco
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 14 Feb 2020, 12:27 am
Tarragona looks beautiful Maty, I would like to visit there!

Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 14 Feb 2020, 07:49 am
After Rome it is the European city with the best Roman remains. And the cathedral is very interesting too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarragona_Cathedral
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 15 Feb 2020, 12:30 pm
Yes, Maty has a way with words.  Appreciate your input Maty on the Kef R700s.

You need to hear the videos from the same Youtuber. KEF R3 and R5.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=168122.msg1783060#msg1783060


KEF R300 inside :(

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?44139-Some-measurements-of-Kef-R300-drivers&s=52a9311e7ae28f993789d03b335187fb&p=630496&viewfull=1#post630496

Complex crossover with cheap components:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?44139-Some-measurements-of-Kef-R300-drivers&s=3aac7d75880503245f66de24259ba68a&p=630266&viewfull=1#post630266


Presumably all the old R series and the new one suffer from the same. It is a widespread evil, brands only spend money on the external aspect and in marketing. It is assumed that the expensive Reference series does not suffer from these spending cuts, it is assumed.

It is better to spend money on improving loudspeakers that have excellent drivers and that measure quite well, at least is ALWAYS my choice, loudspeakers or amplifiers.

Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Homer2 on 27 Feb 2020, 04:59 pm
Opened up my daul 12" sub last night, removed the sparse pink insulation and lined the box with NoRes.  Finally, I can control the low frequency decay times in my room now that the sub can stop playing a note! I feel like fixing the elongated decay times from speaker cabinets should be the first priority before starting the room treatment journey.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 4 Mar 2020, 10:12 am
Dynaudio Confidence 50

https://stereo-magazine.com/review/dynaudio-confidence-50-review

Tweeter  + midrange crossover

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205510&size=huge)


Bass crossover

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205511&size=huge)


Only € 26,000. I suspect they have only thought about the speakers appearance!
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 4 Mar 2020, 10:38 am
Dynaudio Confidence 50: frequency & impedance

Rescaled (as NX-Xtreme scale)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205512&size=large) (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205512&size=huge)



Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 17 Mar 2020, 03:40 pm
YouTube Audiophiles! Can the JBL Studio 530 be IMPROVED?! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz7FQsSVlk0) by Ron Brenay

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=206036&size=large) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz7FQsSVlk0)
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 17 Mar 2020, 03:47 pm
JBL Studio 530 crossover

https://hardforum.com/threads/best-speaker-ever.1897170/

Rotated, resized and optimized

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=206037&size=huge)

Too much components and complex crossover in a cheap loudspeaker -> much money to invest I think. Maybe to upgrade only the tweeter section? and the electrolytics to spend money. And No Rez too.


Updated: uploading the image again.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 18 Mar 2020, 07:40 am
Crossover scheme

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/quick-review-of-the-jbl-studio-530.10215/post-352767

Resized

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=206083&size=large)
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 18 Mar 2020, 02:40 pm
YouTube Lets fix the Kef Q100! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLc3igbcQ3A)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=206088&size=medium) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLc3igbcQ3A)


KEF Q100 with the mods of GR-Research, aka Danny Richie. Port closed.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kef-q100-speaker-review.11987/post-352936

Frequency and crossover

(https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/kef-q100-gr-research-frequency-crossover-by-danny-richie-png.54801/)


Impedance

(https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/kef-q100-gr-research-impedance-by-danny-richie-png.54803/)


Horizontal

(https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/kef-q100-gr-research-spinorama-by-danny-richie-png.54804/)


Cumulative Spectral Decay (CSD)

(https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/kef-q100-gr-research-csd-by-danny-richie-png.54805/)
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 30 Mar 2020, 02:38 pm
YouTube Modifying the JBL Studio 530 with Danny Richie! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uY1ViS2BKk) by Ron Brenay and Danny Richie

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=206621&size=large) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uY1ViS2BKk)
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: RichPark on 19 May 2020, 12:51 am
The male studs are available separately and are only $3.00 each. So you can add them to all your speaker cables.


Very reasonable stud fee :lol:
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: jcsperson on 19 May 2020, 01:29 am
Off topic

English is not my first or second language. Spanish and Catalan are the first.

My town: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarragona

More than two thousand years before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarraco

Also off topic, but I've been to Barcelona and some of the wineries outside the city. Catalonia has a different feel than the rest of Spain even beyond the language.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 19 May 2020, 09:29 am
Spain is very diverse, both in climate, geografy, gastronomy, languages, welfare state and ways of living. That is wealth, but many want to make it a problem.

The problem, as it happens with all countries, is that many remain in old stereotypes and generalize.

(https://gaceta.es/wp-content/uploads/muneca-flamenca-y-toro.png)

- End of topic -
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Jairaj on 26 May 2020, 08:08 pm
Hi All,

I'm Jai, new member here with first post.  I've just been watching the fabulous and very interesting GR Research videos on Youtube on how to upgrade your speakers.

I have a pair of Focal Chorus 806W speakers that I'd like to upgrade using the methods described in the videos. 

Danny from previous posts I see you used to be a Focal dealer have you come across these speakers before?  I think they were a special edition using better W woofers by Focal as apposed to the V woofers used on more budget speakers.  Any pointers on improving these?


I've never done anything like this before so thought I'd try on an old pair of broken speakers first before I start pulling apart by beloved speakers.  I have a pair of old Focal Chorus 707s speakers, one woofer is damaged and makes a heavily distorted bass noise which I am using as a trail run.  I opened the speakers and noticed some good and bad things.   Good the speakers are made from thick MDF and have internal bracing bad, the wire inside is cheap quality and uses the spade connecters rather than soldered on.

Then onto the crossover circuit, as expected sand cast resistors and iron core inductors as is common for this price point.  I've mapped out the cross over circuit for the high and low circuits.  The only problem I have is figuring out what value the inductors are?  There are no markings on them at all.  The caps and resistors have values so easy enough for me to find replacements but no idea where to start with the inductors? 

I have some photos of the cross over circuitry and one of the inductors incase it helps?

Any help much appreciated, thank you,
Jai

Cross over circuit:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=209541)

Fully assembled cross over circuit:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=209542)

Pictures of one of the inductors:

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=209545)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=209546)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=209547)
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 26 May 2020, 09:04 pm
http://www.hifi-review.com/specs/151068-focal-jmlab-chorus-806v.html

System type   2-way
Enclosure type   Bass-reflex
Frequency response ± 3dB   55 - 28000 Hz
Nominal impedance   8 Ohm
Amplifier Requirements   20 - 80 W
Sensitivity (2.83V/1m)   90 dB
Tweeter   25 mm (1 in.) TNV inverted dome
Woofer   165 mm (6.5 in.) Polyglass cone
Dimensions (H x W x D)   390 x 222 x 293 mm / 15.35 x 8.74 x 11.54 in.
Weight   8.2 kg / 18.04 lbs.


[PDF] https://www.focal.com/sites/www.focal.fr/files/shared/catalog/document/chorus_806v-specification_sheet.pdf

The numbers are different!

Crossover frequency 2200 Hz
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Jairaj on 26 May 2020, 11:14 pm
Hi Matty,

Those are not quite the same speakers as I have.  Mine are the 806W.  This is the spec sheet from Focal for them:
https://www.focal.com/sites/www.focal.fr/files/shared/catalog/document/chorus_806v_w-specification_sheet.pdf

But as I said I am a beginner to the modifying world so I'm going to do a practice run on my Focal Chorus 707S first.  I cannot find these speakers on the Focal website.  These are the nearest I could find, I think they use the same woofer:
https://www.focal.com/sites/www.focal.fr/files/shared/catalog/document/chorus-807-v-fp.pdf

Type:  Compacte 2 voies bass-reflex
Haut-parleurs:   Grave/médium Polyglass 180 mm
Tweeter:   inversé TNV Al/Mg 25 mm
Réponse en fréquence:   (+/- 3 dB) 50Hz-28kHz
Réponse à - 6 dB:  41 Hz
Sensibilité (2,83 V / 1 m):  92 dB
Impédance nominale:  8 ohms
Impédance minimale (@25°C):  4,2 ohms @160 Hz
Puissance max:  160 W
Puissance RMS:  110 W
Fréquence de filtrage:  3 kHz
Dimensions (HxLxP). 448x237x280mm
Poids. x10,1kg

So looks like the cross over frequency is 3000Hz.

Can I use this and plug the cross over frequency into LRC filter equations and solve the equation for inductance?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 27 May 2020, 02:40 am
You mean you want to upgrade these?

(http://gr-research.com/jmlab/focalparts.jpg)

I designed a whole new crossover and smoothed things out a bit.

(http://gr-research.com/jmlab/crossovers.jpg)

They had some issues.

I have before and after measurements and everything.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Jairaj on 27 May 2020, 11:34 am
Hi Danny,

Thank you for replying.  hahah thats fantastic, yes the Focal 707s, those are the ones I'm going to practice on first!  Can you share some more information please? or help with the inductor values?

And even better if you also have any info and advice on modifying the Focal 806VW which is the end game for me?

many thanks, Jai
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 29 May 2020, 02:50 am
Hi Danny,

Thank you for replying.  hahah thats fantastic, yes the Focal 707s, those are the ones I'm going to practice on first!  Can you share some more information please? or help with the inductor values?

And even better if you also have any info and advice on modifying the Focal 806VW which is the end game for me?

many thanks, Jai

Just give me a call. I can provide you with everything you need.

I have not worked on the 806VW model.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Speaker Challenged on 3 Jul 2020, 12:22 am
Is there any speaker Danny can't fix. Danny it must be a Wharfedale Diamond 220 next  :D
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: mrpope64 on 8 Jul 2020, 08:15 pm
Danny,
Have you ever upgraded Polk Tsi100? and if so how much for a upgrade kit?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Freo-1 on 8 Jul 2020, 11:16 pm
Danny,


I've had these speakers since 2013, and they sound terrific.  Having said that, am interested in what would you recommend for improvement:


https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=160327.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=160327.0)


Danny,


Any ideas? 
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Freo-1 on 8 Jul 2020, 11:26 pm
Well, the room is open concept, where the living room opens into the kitchen.  It's a Florida house, so it has 10 ft ceilings. The speakers are 2 feet from a side wall, and one foot from the rear wall.  The left wall only come out about 3 feet, then opens into an entry way that is roughly six feet wide.  The floors are hardwood/tile, and has leather furniture.  Could provide dimensions/pics offline if needed.


Not quite sure about application.  They are used for music/television, and two channel home entertainment. The electronics are a pair of Devialet D-Premier integrated amps, which output 500 watts per channel @ 6 ohms.  Also occasionally use tube amps that are either 80 watts or 110 watts.


I really like these speakers, and have not felt the need to replace them.  However, given their age, if improvement can be had, I'm all in.


What else would you like to know. PS: The tube amps were made by our mutual friend Charlie. 
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 10 Jul 2020, 12:37 pm

Danny,


Any ideas?

I don't know. I really can't tell much from the outside.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Freo-1 on 10 Jul 2020, 02:21 pm
T+A Criterion TB 160

Optimized. Click on image -> Huge


German review

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204580) (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204580&size=huge)


http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-225-3889.html (http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-225-3889.html)

First crossover

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204581) (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204581&size=huge)


Second crossover

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204582) (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204582&size=huge)


Rear. Binding posts.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204583) (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204583&size=huge)


Maty had posted this regarding the speakers.  Does this help?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 10 Jul 2020, 03:36 pm
To really figure out what he can/can't do with it, Danny needs to have at least one of the speakers in-house to measure and test the driver parameters, and design a proper crossover from that.

Otherwise the best he can do it just suggest to replace cheaper components with better ones.
That said, if you know the values needed, you can just do that yourself via parts express or other similar parts sellers.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Freo-1 on 10 Jul 2020, 05:21 pm
All the same, I'm sure Danny can speak for himself.   After all, it's Danny's challenge.  :D


One needs to be careful when changing out crossover components.  It's easy to make things worse. 
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Syrah on 10 Jul 2020, 08:27 pm
I know a few have asked this over the years, but I figured I'd check to see if there's been any change - Danny, has anyone sent you KEF LS50s to play with?  They are pretty common and I would think having a mod would be mighty popular.

I recently bought a pair because I got a really good price, and they look cool.

Given the improvements that I had with my last GR mods to speakers, I'm just dying to mod the crossovers, line them with now NoRez, and pull out the rest of your amazing mods.

I'm perfectly happy housing the crossovers in separate floor boxes with umbilical cords, so crossover space is not a problem.

I would ship mine to you, but I'm in Canada now and shipping back and forth gets expensive and document intensive.  I used to drive across the border and ship from Buffalo - but Covid is killing that plan...
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Texbychoice on 13 Jul 2020, 03:37 am
Discovered GR Research and videos from Danny early in the COVID-19 lock down. Great support of the DIY community.  Rekindled my interest in "audiophile" pursuits.  Thought my system was pretty good, although vintage.  Time on my hands so decided to try DIY improvements not expecting much.  Started by replacing all the electrolytic caps in my speaker crossovers with Dayton Audio caps.  Noticeable positive step.  Discovered the Humble Capacitor Shootout and read it several times.  A CDE 940C series 0.01 uF cap received high marks for bypass duty.  Added to the crossover tweeter circuit.  Woke up the high end. 

Since replacing electrolytic caps yielded positive results, moved to sub woofer amp and main amp.  Nichicon audio caps installed.  Sub woofer amp first yielded low end could feel in your gut without cranking up the volume.  Main amp next.  Smoother, bigger sound stage, and vocals cleaner.

Back to the speakers for air core inductors, Kiwame resistors, and CDE 940C caps paralleled to achieve specific values.  Used X-Sim crossover design software to adjust values of the original crossover design to get the smoothest calculated response.  After going slightly backwards with overuse of bypass capacitors, settled on original circuit with adjusted values.  Small bypass remained in the tweeter circuit.

Did the full  mod on one speaker for comparison purposes.  Definite and significant difference.  After some serious listening no doubt the other speaker had to be modified.  Wow, simply WOW.  With both crossovers modified finally listening to music, not speakers.  In some speaker reviews by Ron at New Record Day he described hearing layers and depth.  Now I understand what he was trying to describe.  Eyes closed the music envelops you. 

Throughout the process used specific tracks from various artists listening for specific qualities.  Don't have test equipment like Danny, but a musically trained ear knows pretty well what is right and sounds good.  No doubt Danny can make your speakers sound better.  Or if you want to follow the DIY route, could end up with rewarding results.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 13 Jul 2020, 06:25 am
I know a few have asked this over the years, but I figured I'd check to see if there's been any change - Danny, has anyone sent you KEF LS50s to play with?  They are pretty common and I would think having a mod would be mighty popular.

I recently bought a pair because I got a really good price, and they look cool.

Given the improvements that I had with my last GR mods to speakers, I'm just dying to mod the crossovers, line them with now NoRez, and pull out the rest of your amazing mods...

by Zvu

KEF LS50 playground - measurements of raw drivers in factory cabinets and simulations
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/337420-kef-ls50-playground-measurements-raw-drivers-factory-cabinets-simulations.html (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/337420-kef-ls50-playground-measurements-raw-drivers-factory-cabinets-simulations.html)

Quote
EDIT: Couple of guys chimed in also so this is our take on KEF LS50 ALTERNATIVE CROSSOVER:
 

 Zvu PSM XO (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/337420-kef-ls50-playground-measurements-raw-drivers-factory-cabinets-simulations.html#post5779944)
 Göran (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/337420-kef-ls50-playground-measurements-raw-drivers-factory-cabinets-simulations-2.html#post5780379)
 XMechanik  (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/337420-kef-ls50-playground-measurements-raw-drivers-factory-cabinets-simulations-4.html#post5794383)
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 13 Jul 2020, 06:39 am
Discovered GR Research and videos from Danny early in the COVID-19 lock down. Great support of the DIY community. Rekindled my interest in "audiophile" pursuits...

I have posted [edited] your comment here:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/356906-raal-70-20xr-ptt6-5-compact-tl-post6273825.html
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: blindman5 on 21 Jul 2020, 05:23 am
Hi Danny, I am wondering about a pair of Elac Debut V2 6.2 speakers. I haven't opened them up yet. They definitely do need some no-res I just got them, so they aren't broken in yet. There's a slight midrange shout that bothers me. It is like cupping your hands over your face and speaking. It's not real bad, but I hope that will smooth out a bit. Otherwise they seem to be ok. There's a slight boomyness that is really due to the vibrating cabinet. Hey, for $256 new, I'm not gonna complain. So just wondered if someone had sent you a pair to look at? Thanks. I had some issues attempting to log in, so I re-registered. See my hopefully approved intro message over at the Starting block.

The way you describe the method for making the crossovers sounds simple enough. I'd probably build it first, lay it out on a board with EVA doublestick foam. That way I wouldn't have to drill holes to keep the components in place. The 3mm foam I got seems to hold stuff really well. I think even as a blindman I can solder these parts together. One thing at a time though. Thank you for any help you can give here.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 21 Jul 2020, 01:24 pm
Hi Danny, I am wondering about a pair of Elac Debut V2 6.2 speakers. I haven't opened them up yet. They definitely do need some no-res I just got them, so they aren't broken in yet. There's a slight midrange shout that bothers me. It is like cupping your hands over your face and speaking. It's not real bad, but I hope that will smooth out a bit. Otherwise they seem to be ok. There's a slight boomyness that is really due to the vibrating cabinet. Hey, for $256 new, I'm not gonna complain. So just wondered if someone had sent you a pair to look at? Thanks. I had some issues attempting to log in, so I re-registered. See my hopefully approved intro message over at the Starting block.

The way you describe the method for making the crossovers sounds simple enough. I'd probably build it first, lay it out on a board with EVA doublestick foam. That way I wouldn't have to drill holes to keep the components in place. The 3mm foam I got seems to hold stuff really well. I think even as a blindman I can solder these parts together. One thing at a time though. Thank you for any help you can give here.

This one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m_GJ8JQpCI
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Syrah on 21 Jul 2020, 09:09 pm
Thanks Maty re. LS50s.  That's all a bit beyond my technical abilities.

Is this the consensus on the mod schematic?

https://imgur.com/gallery/ZRjv52l

Does TT mean tweeter at the end?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: blindman5 on 22 Jul 2020, 07:18 am
 :|Hi Danny, Well, reading about your mods, If I am correct, you worked on the 5.2's with a 5.5 woofer. I have the 6.2 with a 6.5 woofer. So then this needs to be looked at further. That cupped sound is probably the 750 HZ woofer resonance issue. I'm gonna figure they used the same tweeter, and the crossover might be similar. So, do I need to pull a woofer and send it to you as well as the crossover? Should I pull that wave guide off of these too? Thanks. I'll have to save up my pennies and nickels to get this mod done. $345 for a pair of $256 of speaker. hmm. I've noticed the vibration is mostly on the top and some on the sides, nut to much on the back. As for the tube connectors, I'd rather just remove the binding posts and put them in their place. There's just gotta be a better way of securing them on the cup, as opposed to drilling holes in brand new speakers. I'm not against the tube connectors mine you, just mechanically it's to bad it's not just copper tubes. If these were threaded, then I'd get some of these little cripping cylinders that you have on the valves to secure the valves to the pipe, say going up to your faucet in the bathroom or kitchen.  :)So what do you think? Should I maybe do the No-res first, Or would putting that in first would get in the way of the crossover. I did listen to the section on that topic, and I wasn't to sure in the best way to install that stuff. I couldn't tell if the bottom vibrates too. I figure since the port is right there at the bottom, probably safe not to put any no-res there.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Kazoom on 22 Jul 2020, 10:49 pm
Our level 2 upgrade package includes the level 1 upgrade plus we'll upgrade any or all of your internal crossover parts.

We can send you value for value the parts you need or build out new networks for you. Just send us information and pictures of your existing crossovers and we'll recommend the upgrade path for you.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/LGKcrossover2.jpg)

Hi Danny,


Looking to upgrade my B&W 801 series 80 from 1980.  I spoke to you late last summer, but was not able to get into the speaker till now. They are in great condition cosmetically and the drivers look great, however I assume that 40 years has not treated the cross-over parts well cause these sound flat and muddy.  I also want to by-pass the "safety off" switch which loops into the bigger x-over board.

There are 3 separate boards, with one inside the woofer/tweeter section connected by a three pronged plug (looks almost like an XLR plug).

Really hoping to restore these to their former glory cause they really are a great speaker and are also the speakers that got me into the whole quest for the ever elusive perfect sounding system.  I am also very interested in how the famed 20hz woofer competes against my triple ob subs.   :o   Ok, not expecting much competition in this shoot out, however maybe I can get close.

Anyway I am seeing quite a few anecdotes on the interwebs about people having great success upgrading these, so looking forward to your recommendations! 

Thanks,

-Dan


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212197)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212198)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212199)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212200)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212201)
 
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: maty on 23 Jul 2020, 02:29 pm
Thanks Maty re. LS50s.  That's all a bit beyond my technical abilities.

Is this the consensus on the mod schematic?

https://imgur.com/gallery/ZRjv52l

Does TT mean tweeter at the end?

This is the first mod, from Germany. I am more in favor of filters with fewer components and refine the frequency response later via software. Only mod the tweeter filter.

The best idea is to talk with Zvu.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 23 Jul 2020, 02:49 pm
:|Hi Danny, Well, reading about your mods, If I am correct, you worked on the 5.2's with a 5.5 woofer. I have the 6.2 with a 6.5 woofer. So then this needs to be looked at further. That cupped sound is probably the 750 HZ woofer resonance issue. I'm gonna figure they used the same tweeter, and the crossover might be similar. So, do I need to pull a woofer and send it to you as well as the crossover?

There is nothing I can do with just a woofer and crossover. To measure it I need the whole speaker.

Quote
Should I pull that wave guide off of these too?

Just the screen over the front of the tweeter.

Quote
As for the tube connectors, I'd rather just remove the binding posts and put them in their place. There's just gotta be a better way of securing them on the cup, as opposed to drilling holes in brand new speakers.

Sure, you can mount them in the binding post cups.

Quote
I'm not against the tube connectors mine you, just mechanically it's to bad it's not just copper tubes. If these were threaded, then I'd get some of these little cripping cylinders that you have on the valves to secure the valves to the pipe, say going up to your faucet in the bathroom or kitchen.  :)So what do you think?

Just drill out the binding post cup hole (from the old binding post) to 7/16" and they'll drop right in. You'll need a little supper glue on the rim and hot glue all over the back side.

Quote
Should I maybe do the No-res first, Or would putting that in first would get in the way of the crossover. I did listen to the section on that topic, and I wasn't to sure in the best way to install that stuff. I couldn't tell if the bottom vibrates too. I figure since the port is right there at the bottom, probably safe not to put any no-res there.

You can No Rez them first if you want.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 23 Jul 2020, 02:52 pm
Hi Danny,

Looking to upgrade my B&W 801 series 80 from 1980.  I spoke to you late last summer, but was not able to get into the speaker till now. They are in great condition cosmetically and the drivers look great, however I assume that 40 years has not treated the cross-over parts well cause these sound flat and muddy.  I also want to by-pass the "safety off" switch which loops into the bigger x-over board.

There are 3 separate boards, with one inside the woofer/tweeter section connected by a three pronged plug (looks almost like an XLR plug).

Really hoping to restore these to their former glory cause they really are a great speaker and are also the speakers that got me into the whole quest for the ever elusive perfect sounding system.  I am also very interested in how the famed 20hz woofer competes against my triple ob subs.   :o   Ok, not expecting much competition in this shoot out, however maybe I can get close.

Anyway I am seeing quite a few anecdotes on the interwebs about people having great success upgrading these, so looking forward to your recommendations! 

Thanks,

-Dan

Wow, there is a LOT of room for improvement there.

But ideally, it would be best to design a new crossover for them. That's easy for me, but I need one of them here for that.

And yes, I know these are heavy ones.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Kazoom on 23 Jul 2020, 06:52 pm
Thanks for the quick reply Danny

Looks like it would cost the same to drive them down as it would be to ship them.

Although I could justify a family focused road trip to Houston  :scratch:  Hmmmmm.....  Going to have to noodle on how to manage this one.



Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: adman666 on 27 Jul 2020, 07:12 am
Hi Danny,

Been watching your various youtube videos and I am very keen to look into a set of DIY speakers. I have these older jensen qx-15 bookshelf speakers and was wondering if they are worth doing anything with? I am in Australia so I can't really send them to you. Any information would be much appreciated. They have poly-fill packing and the woofer has a metal frame.

Thank-you.

Here is the brochure:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0081/2967/5360/files/JENSEN_QX2_BROCHURE.pdf?8268

And some images:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212408)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212409)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212410)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212411)
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: blindman5 on 28 Jul 2020, 11:37 pm
 :Hi Danny,  Well, I was a bit surprised, pulling off that wave guide made a difference, although subtle. Some of that shoutyness is gone. There's just a little. I suspect better parts in the network would smooth things out. I have found in the past, changing even just the wiring made a difference. I once had a pair of Marage SM1. Changing out the wiring deepen the bass, and gave the speakers the better ability to hear attacks on drums. I'd never heard that before. Changing out from those awful spring connectors to binding posts helped. That was back in the early .80's. So much for this topic. I'll have to open up one, and see how much wire I'm gonna need. If I make the holes in the cup 6/16th, will the tube still fit? I want them to be a tight fit.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Ixnay on 8 Oct 2020, 03:11 am
 This thread seems to be as close as I can come to the topic that I want to inquire about. In this case, I have built GR Research's Servo sub kit #2. It has been a sigh of relief since the completion, as I have not heard even decent bass from my system in many years. Now, I am using a rear loaded horn design by Decware Audio called the DNA2, but the installed drivers are from Mark Audio>> 12P. They are too small to do justice to low bass and in the horns go down neatly to to about 50 hz or even a little lower. Not bad, so then came the sub project. Now that it is all done, I have one question. In years past, I have used a Velodyne SMS-1 bass management unit to not only measure the room, but provide a corrected bass signal for a sub bass unit. It seems to me that this would be beneficial for the servo sub unit. Your thoughts on this are appreciated. FWIW, I am using a line level passive X-over made by Harrison Labs that would be in the picture if I were to use the Velodyne.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215582)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215583)

Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: tnek2 on 3 Nov 2020, 03:03 pm
Danny,
will the tube connectors still show improvement if i have banana plugs connected to my amp, on the other side?  I also have my main listening space in another room from the amp, and 12 gauge wiring run in my crawl space to a wall outlet, connected with Banana plugs.  Just wondering if the weakest link being upstream from the tube connectors would negate the benefits of adding them at the speaker?
Thanks!
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 3 Nov 2020, 04:14 pm
Danny,
will the tube connectors still show improvement if i have banana plugs connected to my amp, on the other side?  I also have my main listening space in another room from the amp, and 12 gauge wiring run in my crawl space to a wall outlet, connected with Banana plugs.  Just wondering if the weakest link being upstream from the tube connectors would negate the benefits of adding them at the speaker?
Thanks!

Upgrading my XLS to tube connectors made a rather noticable difference in quality, even while still using the stock banana plugs that came with my Sprout 100. The stock binding posts were definitely the weakest link in my setup, since upgrading the banana plugs to low mass alternatives didnt make much difference, if any imo, since it doesn't have binding posts, just holes for banana plugs.

If you dont mind tinkering, upgrading your amp will probably help, but likely less than speaker side, so long as the amp has high quality binding posts to start with.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: musiccritic5088 on 18 Feb 2021, 09:12 pm
Where can I get your internal speaker cables for $0.75 a foot?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 18 Feb 2021, 09:50 pm
Where can I get your internal speaker cables for $0.75 a foot?

They are 80 cents a foot now (Copper went up). Just call to order.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: musiccritic5088 on 20 Feb 2021, 06:32 pm
80 cents will still be no issue! So I just call you on the gr research number to order it?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 28 Feb 2021, 02:02 am
80 cents will still be no issue! So I just call you on the gr research number to order it?

Yes you can.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: 77SunsetStrip on 25 Apr 2021, 12:14 am
Just an FYI for anyone tinkering with speakers or considering sending one to Danny for possible improvement.  Working on a $3K retail set of speakers from a well respected manufacturer.  Push on terminals used on crossover board and all driver connections.  Did impedance sweep on as manufactured condition.  Impedance sweep after ONLY changing to solder connections at the drivers (woofer, mid, tweeter).  R(e) 0.3 ohms less with soldered connections.  Don't know yet if there will be an audible difference.  Getting rid of potential connection problems is worthwhile peace of mind.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: corndog71 on 25 Apr 2021, 01:50 am
Just an FYI for anyone tinkering with speakers or considering sending one to Danny for possible improvement.  Working on a $3K retail set of speakers from a well respected manufacturer.  Push on terminals used on crossover board and all driver connections.  Did impedance sweep on as manufactured condition.  Impedance sweep after ONLY changing to solder connections at the drivers (woofer, mid, tweeter).  R(e) 0.3 ohms less with soldered connections.  Don't know yet if there will be an audible difference.  Getting rid of potential connection problems is worthwhile peace of mind.

It was audible on my Super 7’s.  Subtle but more than I expected.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: JNieves on 10 May 2021, 09:08 pm
Hi, I fairly recently blew a pair of tweeters on my much loved AV123 Rocket 750's. I found the tweeters but after replacing them one of the speakers still won't play anything through the tweeter, leading me to believe the crossover may be blown. I believe the crossover was designed by you (Danny Richie) - I'm interested in fixing it or replacing it. Would this be possible?
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 11 May 2021, 01:34 pm
Hi, I fairly recently blew a pair of tweeters on my much loved AV123 Rocket 750's. I found the tweeters but after replacing them one of the speakers still won't play anything through the tweeter, leading me to believe the crossover may be blown. I believe the crossover was designed by you (Danny Richie) - I'm interested in fixing it or replacing it. Would this be possible?

I can provide you with anything you need.

Chances of the crossover being blown is almost zero. It is usually a connection issue.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: JNieves on 11 May 2021, 02:32 pm
I can provide you with anything you need.

Chances of the crossover being blown is almost zero. It is usually a connection issue.

I will double check the connections.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: TheGM on 13 May 2021, 05:15 pm
New Audiocircle member. Hello All.

I'm hoping Danny can make my speakers better. He has one of my Martin Logan 35XTi speakers in his possession now.
Hoping to hear something from him soon.
Gary M
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 14 May 2021, 01:12 pm
New Audiocircle member. Hello All.

I'm hoping Danny can make my speakers better. He has one of my Martin Logan 35XTi speakers in his possession now.
Hoping to hear something from him soon.
Gary M

I measured it last night. Their were some issues...
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: mzbrahce on 9 Jun 2021, 02:48 pm
Hi Danny--
Have you tested a Dynaco A25?  The stock crossover is very simple, a 5 uF capacitor in series with a resistor, or resistors, selected with a switch.  It's a simple matter to replace the wire, cap, add a bypass cap, ditch the switch and use 1 higher quality resistor, add tube connectors, but can any more be done?
Thanks----------Mark
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Danny Richie on 16 Jun 2021, 02:08 pm
Hi Danny--
Have you tested a Dynaco A25?  The stock crossover is very simple, a 5 uF capacitor in series with a resistor, or resistors, selected with a switch.  It's a simple matter to replace the wire, cap, add a bypass cap, ditch the switch and use 1 higher quality resistor, add tube connectors, but can any more be done?
Thanks----------Mark

Back then they typically didn't use a high pass only filter like that because it was ideal. It was used because it was cheap. I am sure they could really use a real crossover.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: BigRiver on 13 Sep 2021, 01:13 pm
New Audiocircle member. Hello All.

I'm hoping Danny can make my speakers better. He has one of my Martin Logan 35XTi speakers in his possession now.
Hoping to hear something from him soon.
Gary M

Following this, will be interested in the results for sure.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: BigRiver on 13 Sep 2021, 01:15 pm
Also curious if any tests have been done one the Forte iv.  Considering the improvements done on the iii it would seem like a pretty ripe avenue, I for one would be very interested in ideas/packages, etc regarding an upgrade to the iv.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Kaiju2189 on 13 Sep 2021, 11:32 pm
How doable would a like for like parts upgrade be on Klipsch rp6000f be for a complete newbie. I have been kicking around the Encores as well. I am confident in being able to follow along with Danny’s build videos but am a bit concerned on getting my Klipsch apart and not getting them back together without help.
Title: Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 16 Sep 2021, 01:42 am
The 6000F should be fairly easy, not too many parts.
The Encore will definitely be easier tho.

The real key is to take your time, take pictures of everything, and lay parts out in a way so you know where they belong and how they come apart/go together.

Also curious if any tests have been done one the Forte iv.  Considering the improvements done on the iii it would seem like a pretty ripe avenue, I for one would be very interested in ideas/packages, etc regarding an upgrade to the iv.

No one has sent in the Forte IV as of yet, but it would be interesting to see the difference between the two.