AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Cheap and Cheerful HiFi => Topic started by: Wayner on 1 Oct 2012, 07:32 pm
-
I ordered a dozen of these from China. Well, there certainly was a slow boat coming from there, and I have since, found them on eBay (for less), nonetheless, they seem to be of great quality for the money.
(http://www.nakamichiplug.com/pic/0534E-002.jpg)
No soldering required and they fit very, very snug into the banana jacks that I have tried.
Wayner
-
I have been using them for a few years now and they work very well. The tips are a bit delicate and so you have to be careful not to bend them.
-
Good to know someone else knows about these....
W
-
I ordered a dozen of these from China. Well, there certainly was a slow boat coming from there, and I have since, found them on eBay (for less), nonetheless, they seem to be of great quality for the money.
(http://www.nakamichiplug.com/pic/0534E-002.jpg)
No soldering required and they fit very, very snug into the banana jacks that I have tried.
Wayner
Wayner,
Those do look pretty good. You didn't mention where you got yours, so I did a search for them. I came up with this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/210672-warning-nakamichi-plugs-made-iron.html
I really would like to get some of these. Would you mind sharing what supplier yours came from, and do you know what the base metal is? I just want to find a legitimate source that is actually using gold plated copper, and not gold plated iron!
Your input is appreciated...
Larry
-
Check out Madisound:
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/bananas-spades/ (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/bananas-spades/)
(http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/images/products/bp-sz-b.jpg)
(http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/images/products/bp-szplug-b.jpg)
-
That's some pretty damning posts on the Nakamichi plugs, says they're made of pot metal and snap at a breath of tension. I could actually use some good sounding bananas now so the thread is topical for me. Wayne, how have they been in use for you? Have you tried to snap them? Crazy question, who would try to snap their own banana plugs, but that's what the guy on the DIY thread did.
These were listed in the DIY thread.
(http://images.monoprice.com/productlargeimages/28011.jpg)
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10401&cs_id=1040115&p_id=2801&seq=1&format=1#largeimage (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10401&cs_id=1040115&p_id=2801&seq=1&format=1#largeimage)
They say "High-Quality Copper Speaker Banana Plugs". Wayne, you might know, what does "High-Quality Copper" mean in ad copy? How much copper do you actually get? I'm sure unless it claims 100% copper it's a alloy with, tin, aluminium, brass, etc.
-
I have some of those, the (a) problem with them is that if your wire is over a certain size the screws don't go in far enough and you can't get the barrel back on. Also, if it's multistrand you kinda have to tin the whole thing together. I think I may have successfully soldered some wires into it (instead of using screws) but they're not really designed for it.
Also, I had a couple of the screws strip. I guess I was trying to get them in further... (see above ;) )
However, they are cheap and they do work OK. I think. Haven't had any other problems so far that I can recall.
To be honest I haven't found a banana connector I like yet. I have some other cables with Cardas on them and one has lost it's tension. If I only needed one or two cables I'd try those tube things.
-
I tested the ones that I have and they are certainly not attracted to a magnet. Mine seem to be relatively pliable not prone to snapping off...but who knows what they actually are made off. They are somewhat hard to work with though. I have some stranded cables and as JohnR pointed out they are hard to tighten. They do seem to stay in place once both screws are properly tightened even without tinning.
-
I got these when I went to bi-wiring, and one is bent after a year. Still, they seem to work fine.
I have been using them for a few years now and they work very well. The tips are a bit delicate and so you have to be careful not to bend them.
-
The site is below:
http://www.nakamichiplug.com/product-0534E.html
They claim that the base metal is pure copper. I'll assume that they are flash plated with nickle then gold (for metal base compatibility). I'd also guess as John has indicated, that the actual banana element may not be the strongest in sideways force, but it seams to be very strong in linear force directions (insertion/extraction). I got the 12 piece set for $13.49 with free shipping, so that is $1.125 each.
I have also picked up a 24 pack off of eBay for $17.54 (with free shipping) and that would make them $0.73 each. The ones directly purchased from Nakamichi are slightly different from the eBay model by way of the outer sleeve. The Nakamichi model has a copper threaded sleeve whereas the eBay model has plastic. I think the plastic ones might be less prone to stripping and electrically isolate the outer sleeve from the banana plug. This may prevent some accidental shorting if a guy swaps cables with the amp(s) on.
I did not solder the 14 gauge copper wire, but I stripped the end about an inch, twisted the strands together tightly then doubled them up before installing them into the plug. I did not want to solder the wire and this seems to produce a very strong connection (which is the weak point in the speaker/wire equation).
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=68754)
I did listen to a couple of Ric Ocasek LPs last night and heard some detail that caught me slightly off guard. This is the reason I have been on this quest, because I believe the main problem with speaker cables is the connection between wire and connector. It's obvious that the BFA style is superior in contact and contact pressure to the traditional banana plug, and it has a much larger contact surface. The setscrew method as opposed to soldering or crimping seems to be a superior connection as well, especially compared to bananas like the ones from Parts Express which offer only 1 screw down cap, and always seems to come loose.
Yes, these connectors are limited to 8 gauge wire (as claimed by the manufacturer), as larger size wire would prevent the sleeves from being installed, but then, don't install the sleeves if that is your problem. The opening in the connector is about .195" or 5 mm, so that should handle some fairly large wire.
Wayner
-
I got some of these Nak plugs a few years back, and have since switched to WBT types. I am on vacation right now, but when I get back I'll count out what I have and ship them to any ACer that would like them. Free.
I've been given many items and courtesies on AC, no questions asked. Time for me to pass some on to others. :thumb:
'brick
-
I just purchased and installed some banana plugs I got from Blue Jeans Cable. http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm They are of the compression type and come with shrink wrap sleeves. They are of good quality and well priced. It took a few minute to get the hang of installing them but after that it was easy.
-
I bought a 24 pack (of the Nakamichis) a while ago and I have never had a problem with them snapping off, or fitting reasonably thick wire in them. They're great to have around the house for those moments when you need to make a quick connection, and I think they are fine for a permanent connection too.
Here's what the back of my package says:
24k Plating
Connector made by pure copper (non-magnetic) .6N
Double Screw Locking
Color coded
I put a magnet up against one of them, and nothing happened. For a buck a piece, I don't see why anyone would complain about them.
-
I think someone must be selling fake Nakamichi plugs if the other thread is to be believed. As I mentioned earlier, mine are non-magnetic as well, and given how easily they can bend I don't think they are brittle at all. My package said the same thing as Quiet Earth but then I would imagine the fake ones have similar wording on them as well.
In any case, I am happy with mine.
-
That's the main reason why I try to avoid eBay whenever possible. Counterfeit gone wild.
-
I used the Nak's as well. For the price I picked up about 3x what I needed at the time, but have since found uses for them. I agree, the only drawback I have found is you can't use fat wire with them or the screws won't go in all the way and the barrel can't then screw on. They do stay once installed though. No problems with loosening up or bending that I have found.
-
BTW, Wayner, I bought mine directly from Nakamichi.com too, and I remember that they took several weeks to arrive. If you decide to do some kind of analysis on them to determine the real metal quality, please let us know. I won't be shocked or bummed out if they are not super high quality or even what they say they are on the package. I was really just looking for something decent at a fair price when I bought them. I think they definitely fit that description. I am certainly no connector expert by any means.
-
Is it possible that the fakes are gold-plated brass? Is that metallurgically possible?
You could take a fine file to the end of the barrel (the end where the wire enters). If it's gold plated copper there should be a very clear color difference (this difference may be easier to see if you put a wet tissue over the metal. This eliminates the glare which can affect your impression of color). Plated brass should show no color difference. I suspect a lot of "gold plated copper" products available on the net to not be real copper.
-
To my knowledge, none of the BFA style plugs on the market are pure copper, but are instead a beryllium copper alloy that is necessary to provide springiness to the design. Brass is also a copper alloy, but I believe the alloy used in the BFA plugs has a bit more copper content, at least in some of the known entities like Nordost, Multi-Contact and Audioquest.
Steve
-
To my knowledge, none of the BFA style plugs on the market are pure copper, but are instead a beryllium copper alloy that is necessary to provide springiness to the design. Brass is also a copper alloy, but I believe the alloy used in the BFA plugs has a bit more copper content, at least in some of the known entities like Nordost, Multi-Contact and Audioquest.
Steve
Steve that is possible, although there are processes to harded copper after it is formed to create the spring required for good contact. If that is the case here, the copper would become hard and brittle (in order to create the spring effect) and sideways twists may certainly damage the connector.
For the good of the group, I will take a hack saw to the plug portion and look at the filings to see if it is indeed copper or a brass/beryllium derivative.
Wayner
-
I picked up these from Parts Express and I'm happy with them...
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=091-354
I'd bet they're the same as the Madisound plugs shown above.
-
I'm back from the garage. Sadly, I must report that there is zero copper in these connectors, not even the BFA banana element itself. They are in fact, not gold plated either, but rather acid etched to appear as gold. I now suspect that every inexpensive connector made is neither of copper, nor gold plated.
Very disappointing. However, they are still a good value, it's just that they have lied about the products construction, and unless you took a hack-saw to them, you would never know.
I will post pictures later when I have more time.
Can anyone be trusted anymore???
Wayner
-
I looked at Nakamichi's web site: www.nakamichi.com I can't find these banana plugs shown? However, if you go to this site: http://www.nakamichiplug.com/product-0534E.html you will see the banana plugs. To me this reveals that this is two totally unrelated companies.
Also, check out the China industry resource site: http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?SearchText=nakamichi+plugs&IndexArea=product_en&fsb=y A little searching under different wording and you will find several companies using the name "Nakamichi" (aka "Kleenex") and it's logo offering to supply 100,000 banana plugs per month.
It appears they are all probably counterfeit and have no connection to the electronic manufacturer Nakmachi! As far as what they are made of would depend on which company actually made them.
The ones from Madisound (not Nakamichi): http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/bananas-spades/ are listed as gold plated brass.
I guess for the price, if they all work ok, what does it matter?
Larry
-
Larry,
I guess if the company said they were brass, electro-polished, I would not have any problem with that. But there is obviously down right fibbing going on. I think I may contact Paypal, the BBB and anyone else who gives a shit about companies that make claims that are not true. This is false advertising.
I'll bet that every banana jack in the world has zero copper in it, nor is it "gold plated". Think about the gold plating for a minute. It would have to be about 2 molecules thick, and even that would cost a fortune. Certainly not any gold in a $.75 cent connector.
They used brass cause it's cheap, is a fairly good conductor and they can electro-polish it to look like "gold". There is lots of puppet shows going on in the audio industry.
W
-
I think we all know just how much gold, copper, silver or whatever goes into a connector that only sets us back a dollar. Either not much, or not very pure. I'm not really all that surprised.
Forgive my newbie question Wayner, but can you tell us how you were able to determine the metal content and grade its quality by cutting it with a hack saw? Like I said earlier, I haven't got a clue when it comes to that sort of thing.
I will wait for the pictures and you can explain it then.
Thanks!
-
Larry -
There are past posts stating Nak never made banana plugs, that's old news.
I have them, liked them, but Wayner is killing me by dissecting them. I may have to switch.
-
and don't forget these guys:
(http://www.wireworldcable.com/images/uploads/banana_plugs_2010_150.jpg)
I think it's safe to say that when Wireworld says silver / gold plated copper, they're not lying
in other words, probably more science with these guys than puppet show
-
I think we all know just how much gold, copper, silver or whatever goes into a connector that only sets us back a dollar. Either not much, or not very pure. I'm not really all that surprised.
Forgive my newbie question Wayner, but can you tell us how you were able to determine the metal content and grade its quality by cutting it with a hack saw? Like I said earlier, I haven't got a clue when it comes to that sort of thing.
I will wait for the pictures and you can explain it then.
Thanks!
I took a hack saw to the banana body. It should have had a copper color where I sawed it. It was the same color on the inside as it was on the outside. Just from visual inspection, I know that the connector is made from a single alloy, no plating, nothing but the base metal.
It is simply a yellow brass derivative.
Wayner
-
and don't forget these guys:
(http://www.wireworldcable.com/images/uploads/banana_plugs_2010_150.jpg)
I think it's safe to say that when Wireworld says silver / gold plated copper, they're not lying
in other words, probably more science with these guys than puppet show
Unfortunately, these fall out of the "cheap and cheerful" category.
:D
-
I took a hack saw to the banana body. It should have had a copper color where I sawed it. It was the same color on the inside as it was on the outside. Just from visual inspection, I know that the connector is made from a single alloy, no plating, nothing but the base metal.
It is simply a yellow brass derivative.
Wayner
Oh......... Ok, I see. I think you guys must have had high hopes by the creative advertising on the package. You thought you were buying pure copper, as in solid copper connectors. You should have guessed by the picture and by the price that you were not. I understand your disappointment now.
I don't remember why, but I was already under the assumption that these were supposed to be "pure" copper content brass connectors - not pure copper connectors that were gold plated. I figured if there was a little better quality copper in the brass, or if someone even considered the copper content for the brass connector then they would be worth having at that price.
When you pulled them out of the package, didn't you think to yourself, "Hey, these are nice brass connectors. I hope there is some decent copper in there." Try them anyway and see if you like them.
There is a lesson to be relearned in all of this. You usually get what you pay for.
-
There is a lesson to be relearned in all of this. You usually get what you pay for.
So that's why that darn mule won't gee or haw. :duh:
-
Oh......... Ok, I see. I think you guys must have had high hopes by the creative advertising on the package. You thought you were buying pure copper, as in solid copper connectors. You should have guessed by the picture and by the price that you were not. I understand your disappointment now.
I don't remember why, but I was already under the assumption that these were supposed to be "pure" copper content brass connectors - not pure copper connectors that were gold plated. I figured if there was a little better quality copper in the brass, or if someone even considered the copper content for the brass connector then they would be worth having at that price.
When you pulled them out of the package, didn't you think to yourself, "Hey, these are nice brass connectors. I hope there is some decent copper in there." Try them anyway and see if you like them.
There is a lesson to be relearned in all of this. You usually get what you pay for.
Considering that most brass alloys have anywhere from 60% to 85% copper in the first place, really makes making the product as it was described, not that much more expensive then it is now. So now charge a $1.35 instead of $1.13. The machining process is the same, and the electro-polishing vs plating are a wash.
Or, the company could have come clean and just said it was made of brass, and I would have cared less. The whole point of my disappointment was that it wasn't what they said it was.
Now, beyond that, I still do like the connectors and last night, had a little more time to listen to some music using the new connectors. Spinning was Genesis, Wind and Wurthering, and even the wife made comments of a deeper soundstage, with more air, more detailed.
I attribute this all to a better contact from the speaker wire to the speaker terminal. The connectors (IMHO) do not have "sound", they merely pass a signal. If the mechanical connection is poor, the signal passing is poor, especially when the device you are passing the signal to is vibrating (because it's a speaker).
Wayner
-
BTW, the plugs from www.Nakamichiplug.com in China (Model 534E) are vastly superior to the ones I got off eBay. The wall thickness of the barrel is thicker and longer, the setscrews are slotted (which in this case, seems to be better then the philips heads from the ones on ebay).
The slow boat from China will be worth the wait. Free shipping, too.
Wayner
-
BTW, the plugs from www.Nakamichiplug.com in China (Model 534E) are vastly superior to the ones I got off eBay. The wall thickness of the barrel is thicker and longer, the setscrews are slotted (which in this case, seems to be better then the philips heads from the ones on ebay).
The slow boat from China will be worth the wait. Free shipping, too.
Wayner
Ok ... The bottom line: These connectors (www.Nakamichiplug.com) have no actual connection to the Nakamichi Co. Are made of unknown materials, probably brass plated with "gold" or something that looks like it. :lol: They are pretty well made, performance is acceptable, and are priced cheaply. They will be shipped via a slow boat from China, on their nickel :lol: When they finally arrive, I will be pleased by their quality and performance... "Cheap & Cheerful"
Wayner, From your experience, is that an accurate summation?
I originally became concerned when it was suggested they contained ferrous metals, in the other thread.
I am about ready to place my order, any more comments pro or con??
BTW/ what cable did you pair with these "Cheap & Cheerful" plugs?
Larry
-
Hey lacro, :D
I will let Wayner answer for himself of course, but if you are looking for a consensus I will confirm that my plugs from Nakamichi.com :
Seem very well made
Are made of brass, or look just like brass
Are easy to use, and stay put where you plug them in
Do not stick to a magnet
Take at least 3 weeks to arrive
Work just fine and last a long time
Are cheap and cheerful
Are nice to have around the house for projects and ideas
Are not as good as the best plug ever made, nor a giant killer if the ultimate connector is what you seek
Hope that is OK to say. Good luck with your decision. :thumb:
Addendum : I used two strands of solid core wire per plug with mine,,,, I think either 20 or 18 guage because that's what I had around the house.
-
Well, I just listened to 3 hours of vinyl. There is no other explanation for higher order audio then the quality of the contact made by these plugs. Probably the biggest tweak I have experienced in some time. The only requirement of the wire is that I think it should be 14 gauge to fit the plug with a double wrap as I have shown before. Several LPs tonight easily demonstrated that there is an immediate and positive benefit from the contact pressure from these connectors.
The first LP I listened to today was by Genesis, The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. I heard a bass component to one selection that actually made the room vibrate from my very small Focal 706v speakers. That was very impressive and never heard before, tho I am very familiar with the LP. The second LP, Dead Can Dance-SpiritChaser (MOFI Silver Label) had no real audible change, because it's already a spectacular recording. The third LP-Fleetfoxes, Helplessness blues, probably sounded better then it did in their studio (at least in my mind).
How's that?
Wayner
-
Glad you like them Wayner. I like mine too.
Which connectors were you using before trying these? Just curious what you are comparing them to.
-
Wayner,
Would it not sound even better if you just used bare wire to connect to the speaker binding posts?
-
BTW, the plugs from www.Nakamichiplug.com in China (Model 534E) are vastly superior to the ones I got off eBay. The wall thickness of the barrel is thicker and longer, the setscrews are slotted (which in this case, seems to be better then the philips heads from the ones on ebay).
That's interesting to know. I bought mine direct.
There's nothing really wrong with them, considering the price, they work fine. I'd like to find something similar that is designed to be soldered.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=68864)
-
I'd like to find something similar that is designed to be soldered.
I still prefer the low-mass (.56 gram) Swiss-made Multi-Contact LS4 (~ $4.50/pair) which are designed to be soldered. The extra mass of fancier plugs don't add anything to sound quality, and many believe the lower the mass the better. http://www.takefiveaudio.com/mall/shopexd.asp?id=834 (http://www.takefiveaudio.com/mall/shopexd.asp?id=834)
There is a source on eBay that sells similar-looking ones for $13.58/set of 12, but I can't vouch for their quality or origin of manufacture. http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-BFA-4mm-BANANA-PLUGS-Z-type-Speaker-Cable-Connectors-/230860383185?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Audio_Cable_Terminations&hash=item35c059e3d1 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-BFA-4mm-BANANA-PLUGS-Z-type-Speaker-Cable-Connectors-/230860383185?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Audio_Cable_Terminations&hash=item35c059e3d1)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=34303)
I like the Multi-Contact LS4 just as much as my more expensive German-made ViaBlue TS2 (~ $6.00/pair), which are 81% copper/19% brass and use a gold-plated 100% copper crimp sleeve that is secured to the plug by two 1.5mm hex screws.
Steve
-
Good find! I'll get some of those ebay ones and see what they're like.
-
The plugs have an integral projection which is a stop to limit how far they can be inserted into deep binding post holes and that projection also forms the slightly thicker "body" portion of the plug for gripping. I use two short pieces of heatshrink to help build that up a little before the final longer piece of heatshrink.
I was able to fold over and double up my 11AWG wire, but anything larger would likely be used single thickness.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=68865)
Steve
-
Looks like you can pretty much put any name you want to on these plugs. These are marked "Digital", nearly as catchy as Nakamichi don't you think. :roll:
(http://i14.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/be/e0/07f1_1.JPG)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-Digital-24K-Gold-Plated-BFA-Banana-Plug-Speaker-Wire-/220249900316?pt=US_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item3347eac51c (http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-Digital-24K-Gold-Plated-BFA-Banana-Plug-Speaker-Wire-/220249900316?pt=US_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item3347eac51c)
On another note I'm with Wayner that the connector makes a big difference in sound quality. I would think his termination method of getting as much area of wire in as tight of a contact as possible with the connector goes a long way to what has improved his listening experience.
With that in mind, IMHO the only really tight connection is made with a hydraulic crimping tool. Nothing like 8-10 tons of pressure cold welding a wire to a connector to make a gas tight, permanent link.
-
Wayner,
Would it not sound even better if you just used bare wire to connect to the speaker binding posts?
It is important for me that the speaker wires be easily removed and that the critical positioning of the speakers is not changed. The speakers are set (and calibrated) to be exactly mirror image to each other in regards to toe-in angle and position from rear wall. I also find that the single nut of the 5-way binding posts of the speakers tend to vibrate loose, and require periodic checks. These bananas (IMHO) secure the wire to the speaker much better then even bare stranded wire, because of that reason alone.
I have tried a bunch of different banana plugs (the turbine style) from companies like Monster, NXG, Parts Express and others, and they all fail after a period of time. Either the banana turbine relaxes or the the tightened wire with the single nut loosens.
I simply don't see how this will be a problem with the new Nakamichiplug plugs. Even bitching about the material used (not as advertised) as being an issue has gone away. I have replugged every critical set of speakers in the house yesterday, but I'm going to order a 24 pack today.
This has been a great find and tweak for me, and at a whopping cost of about $1.13 each, you can't get much cheaper then that. I'm a happy camper. I also do a nice spray of De-oxit 5 before I install the banana to get the best possible contact, mechanically and chemically.
Wayner
-
With that in mind, IMHO the only really tight connection is made with a hydraulic crimping tool. Nothing like 8-10 tons of pressure cold welding a wire to a connector to make a gas tight, permanent link.
Well, a couple of points... one is that not too many people have one of those tools lying about at home :) Second, soldering can't be that bad as after all that is most likely how the connection is made on the inside of the equipment being connected.
:)
-
I understand why you want the banana plugs, I was just curious how much better the system sounds when it is bare-wired to the speaker binding posts.
It is important for me that the speaker wires be easily removed and that the critical positioning of the speakers is not changed. The speakers are set (and calibrated) to be exactly mirror image to each other in regards to toe-in angle and position from rear wall. I also find that the single nut of the 5-way binding posts of the speakers tend to vibrate loose, and require periodic checks. These bananas (IMHO) secure the wire to the speaker much better then even bare stranded wire, because of that reason alone.
Wayner
-
I use the BFA's "SRB" uses from Take 5 Audio, they are light and spring steel from Switzerland? Fit nicely and durable never had any problems. They have a feeling of confidence using them, these are soldered only. I don't care for the set screw types.
Although I do have some locking ones from DIY Cable when Kevin had them on sale and a set of the better Nakamichi types in reserve.
-
Well, a couple of points... one is that not too many people have one of those tools lying about at home :) Second, soldering can't be that bad as after all that is most likely how the connection is made on the inside of the equipment being connected.
:)
...and the equipment the music was recorded on, and the equipment used to transfer it to whatever medium you're enjoying, and the.................(ad nauseum)
If solder joints really sound bad then how with the elimination of two in the speaker cable make up for the dozens (if not hundreds) along the rest of the chain?
-
Who said solder joints sound bad?
Wayner
-
That's interesting to know. I bought mine direct.
There's nothing really wrong with them, considering the price, they work fine. I'd like to find something similar that is designed to be soldered.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=68864)
John,
What wire are using in the photo?
Larry
-
Well, a couple of points... one is that not too many people have one of those tools lying about at home :) Second, soldering can't be that bad as after all that is most likely how the connection is made on the inside of the equipment being connected.
:)
That's true about the tool not lying about in most folk's workbox. But a nice 8 ton portable with a decent set of dies can be had for $60 US, not too much for someone who makes speaker cables and interconnects for themselves and friends on even a casual frequency. I'm no expert on the sound of solder vs compression, but Sean Casey at Zu is and he likes both the durability and sound quality of high pressure connections. And purely on common sense, which holds little water in argument, physically bonding the metallic lattice seems superior to melting some tin over the connection. How much bonding is there at 8 tons, and how gas tight it is, please ask someone who knows, I said it was common sense and I have precious little of it to spread around. :wink:
Of course solder is used throughout components where crimping is impractical and expensive compared to a solder bath. And is a common practice in audio cabling as well, even if just make a mechanical connection gas tight. So for your question, yes, one of the IMHO personal preference things, but it makes sense to me.
-
That's true about the tool not lying about in most folk's workbox. But a nice 8 ton portable with a decent set of dies can be had for $60 US, not too much for someone who makes speaker cables and interconnects for themselves and friends on even a casual frequency. I'm no expert on the sound of solder vs compression, but Sean Casey at Zu is and he likes both the durability and sound quality of high pressure connections. And purely on common sense, which holds little water in argument, physically bonding the metallic lattice seems superior to melting some tin over the connection. How much bonding is there at 8 tons, and how gas tight it is, please ask someone who knows, I said it was common sense and I have precious little of it to spread around. :wink:
Of course solder is used throughout components where crimping is impractical and expensive compared to a solder bath. And is a common practice in audio cabling as well, even if just make a mechanical connection gas tight. So for your question, yes, one of the IMHO personal preference things, but it makes sense to me.
What connectors are used for crimping? I wonder if the Nak's would survive crimping? I work for a re-manufacturer, and I have access to a couple of crimping methods. One is a tool for crimping wires on big truck starters, and alternators. Also, I have direct use of a Finn Power 240 ton crimper. I would probably have to make a die to go that small, but with this machine I could dial in the exact crimp diameter needed. http://www.lillbackausa.com/heavy_duty_production
Another thing they use at my work place when they crimp the wires on is a gold colored paste. I don't know anything about it other than it comes in a small container with a brush, and it's is very expensive. It's probably to prevent oxidation. Has anyone used anything like this on there connections?
I ordered the Nak's via the slow boat source so I may try crimping one of them with Finn Power Crimper. Depending on what they are made of and the diameter reduction need to tightly crimp them, they may just break, or if they are made of a soft metal, they should crimp easily.
Another thought I had for short speaker cables where 14 gauge cable is enough is to solder the cable inside a short piece of copper tubing, maybe 3/16" OD. Would someone measure the ID of the barrel on the Nak's ? I would think the copper tubing would increase the contact area inside the connector. The contact points on the tubing where the tightening screws hit the tubing could be drilled out a little so the screws would be tightened flush. This would create a very strong connection. Just a thought :scratch:
Larry
-
The inside of the barrel is 5mm or .196". The material is a brass family alloy, with a fairly high copper content, so it should crimp. However, I'd stay very far way from the banana element. I'm not sure how that is held in there, but I'm pretty sure its cold formed onto the connector body. I do feel that the set screws are adequate with 14gauge (doubled up), but if you want, crimp away. Audio Advisor does have some BFAs that are made for crimping that might work better, kind of expensive: http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ANGB
Wayner
-
The inside of the barrel is 5mm or .196". The material is a brass family alloy, with a fairly high copper content, so it should crimp. However, I'd stay very far way from the banana element. I'm not sure how that is held in there, but I'm pretty sure its cold formed onto the connector body. I do feel that the set screws are adequate with 14gauge (doubled up), but if you want, crimp away. Audio Advisor does have some BFAs that are made for crimping that might work better, kind of expensive: http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ANGB
Wayner
Wayner, Thanks for getting me the dimensions. Good point about keeping away from the Banana element. This would just be an experiment because I have the ability to try it. If I don't deform the barrel too much, I may still be able to use the set screws, but probably don't need them. It will probably be a month before I get to try my theory :(
Also....as far as my other method of soldering a short piece of copper tubing on the wire before inserting in the connector:
What do you think of my idea about using 3/16 OD refrigeration (soft copper) tubing? It's .1875 OD so it should fit the 5MM perfectly, assuming the OD tolerance for the tubing isn't extreme. The tubing has a .030 wall which gives it a .1275 ID. I will have to see if the twisted strands of a double 14 ga , a single 12ga, or whatever will fit the .1275 ID of the copper tubing.
If you guys think my idea for trying the copper tubing is dumb :duh:, just say so. I am thinking the tubing would increase the contact surface are in the connector, and the wire would be soldered inside the tubing, preventing possible oxidation when inserted in the connector. :scratch:
Thoughts??
Wayner... would you get me one more dimension: I need the OD of the barrel so I can try to make something for a crimp die to try.
Thanks,
Larry
-
The best type for crimping are those like the ones Steve linked to:
(http://www.takefiveaudio.com/mall/images/spkcon/MC_LS4.jpg)
Or those with a sleeve insert made for crimping. (Your idea of a sleeve of soft copper is just the thing they use, can't find a pic of them right off) I wouldn't think the Naks and the other types made for solder or screw down connection would be the best application.
About the 240 ton crimper, since yesterday I've perused a few articles on mechanical bonding of noble metals and it seems like too much force is as bad as too little force. I'm far, far away from any kind expert on this, but it seems the metals flow away from the bonding lattice when too much pressure is applied. I'd take a wild guess that the crimper for the truck starters prolly applies the correct force needed to get a gas tight bond.
-
John,
What wire are using in the photo?
Larry
Hi Larry, it's CAT6 network cable.
-
The best type for crimping are those like the ones Steve linked to: [Multi-Contact LS4]
I didn't try to crimp the Multi-Contact LS4, but I have tried to crimp a Nordost Z-plug, which looks and feels exactly the same (and for all I know could be where Nordost sourced them from). The material and/or heat treatment is too hard and the plug split and cracked. I don't have any extra LS4s to try, but it would be interesting to know if someone was successfully able to crimp them.
I previously mentioned the ViaBlue TS2 bananas (not really C&C @ $6 ea.) which uses a gold-plated 100% soft copper crimp sleeve similar to the idea that lacro proposed about using copper tubing sleeves with the Nakamichi plugs. I like and prefer the fact that the ViaBlue TS2 has easy-to-securely-tighten hex screws versus slotted or phillips, but I still have to question if soldering direct to the Multi-Contact LS4 (or equivalent) isn't at least as good (or better?) as a soldered or crimped sleeve that is then secured with screws.
ViaBlue TS2
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=68924)
Steve
-
The best type for crimping are those like the ones Steve linked to:
(http://www.takefiveaudio.com/mall/images/spkcon/MC_LS4.jpg)
Or those with a sleeve insert made for crimping. (Your idea of a sleeve of soft copper is just the thing they use, can't find a pic of them right off) I wouldn't think the Naks and the other types made for solder or screw down connection would be the best application.
About the 240 ton crimper, since yesterday I've perused a few articles on mechanical bonding of noble metals and it seems like too much force is as bad as too little force. I'm far, far away from any kind expert on this, but it seems the metals flow away from the bonding lattice when too much pressure is applied. I'd take a wild guess that the crimper for the truck starters prolly applies the correct force needed to get a gas tight bond.
Thanks for your comments. I am just thinking about different ways to get good connections between the wire and connector. Not sure I am on the right track at all...
Actually the 240 ton crimper is a fully adjustable machine. 240 ton is the maximum force it can apply. The actual crimp diameter is dialed in on a digital display. Say the barrel on the Nak's are 1/4" OD (.250") and I want to reduce that diameter by .001" (.249") I can do that. We would call that a "kiss" The amount of crimp force needed for these connectors would be an educated guess on my part, but I have already used it for crimping battery cables, even though it normally is used for up to 6" hose crimping. I could use the published % of wall reduction for the battery cable ends as a starting point. This machine is just a much larger and more expensive machine that would be used to crimp wires in a production setting.
Whether it works for the Nak's remains to be seen, but it will only cost me a dollar to find out :lol:
Larry
-
The O.D. of the barrel is 8mm or .315".
Here is my thought on soldering. Because the connector body is very large, and unless you have one hell of a soldering iron, I believe the end result will be a huge gob of a cold soldering joint. This will be an awful signal conductor and will ruin the connector in the process.
The best possible connection to make (at least for the guy that does not have a press) is still the setscrews. A shot of De-oxit-5 will stop any copper corrosion in the connector.
Wayner
-
Steve:
The Multi-Contact LS4 connector soldered may actually be the best C&C connection. It's simple, low mass, and probably easy to attach.
I am really new at all this, but I like experimenting, and trying different things. I like the look of the Nak's and want to give them a try even if it doesn't work out :oops:
If I can get my sleeve idea to work by soldering it to the wire without destroying the insulation, and then inserting it into the Nak. I may try crimping the connector instead of using the set screws :scratch: The amount needed to crimp would be minimal, and hopefully it would not crush the connector. I guess it's worth a try. I just wish I didn't have to wait a month to find out :(
Wayner:
Thanks for the OD dimension. I will try to figure out something for a die. The smallest size I can crimp with the dies we have is about 1/2" OD.
I wasn't thinking about trying to solder the wire directly to the connector. As you suggest, it would require too much heat to get a good solder joint. I was thinking about using the copper tubing soldered to the wire. Although heat may be an issue with this method too. This would be inserted into connector, secured with the set screws.
The product I mentioned earlier that is used on elect. connections at my work place is Kopr-Shield: http://www-public.tnb.com/shared/inst/ta02445-tb2.pdf Don't know if it would be effective for speaker connectors, but I guess it's something to consider :scratch:
Larry
-
I found a way to really secure even 16awg to the connector if you just follow the photos:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=68940)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=68941)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=68942)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=68943)
Wayner
-
Ok... My Nak's are on order. Whether I attach them with Wayner's method of increasing the diameter/surface area of the wire by back twisting it which is a great idea! Or I use one of the other mentioned methods I will need to decide on what wire to use??
I know this has been discussed to death previously, but I am totally new to this, and would appreciate any "cheap & cheerful" suggestions you guys have. I am building my C&C system from scratch. All I really am looking for is one good proven cable and whether it should be twisted, braided, two into one, etc. It doesn't matter if it's cat 5/6, Blue Jeans bulk Belden cable, etc. I just want something that will be acceptable, and be cheap and cheerful, <$1.00 foot and work with the Nak's
Thoughts appreciated...
Larry
-
Ok... My Nak's are on order. Whether I attach them with Wayner's method of increasing the diameter/surface area of the wire by back twisting it which is a great idea! Or I use one of the other mentioned methods I will need to decide on what wire to use??
I know this has been discussed to death previously, but I am totally new to this, and would appreciate any "cheap & cheerful" suggestions you guys have. I am building my C&C system from scratch. All I really am looking for is one good proven cable and whether it should be twisted, braided, two into one, etc. It doesn't matter if it's cat 5/6, Blue Jeans bulk Belden cable, etc. I just want something that will be acceptable, and be cheap and cheerful, <$1.00 foot and work with the Nak's
Thoughts appreciated...
Larry
Please disregard my previous post/request regarding wire choice. I now see this has recently been thrashed around with not the best results. I don't want to be the cause of fanning the flames! Sorry for getting off topic... The discussion is about Nakamichi plugs.
Larry
-
Although your concern is appreciated, I think you're okay here. You're clearly asking for budget wire that will do well with the connectors. I don't believe this will start a cable war, it's not like someone's going to demand you use Audio Note SOGON96 or you might as well give up the audio hobby or something like that. :lol:
-
Well...
My Nac's arrived today, 16 days form the date of order. The boat was not so slow after all. Actually the chain of events is interesting:
- order placed 10-04
- Shipper responded to me via E-Mail 10-06
- Package shipped from Singapore? 10-10
- package received in NYC 10-13
- I received package 10-20
Whats interesting is the shipment took 3 days from Singapore to NYC, and 7 days to travel another 250 miles to me?? (USPS).
The package was shipped "Registered Mail"? I am not complaining, I had expected a much longer trip from half way around the world especially via free freight!
I did some initial inspection and measurements of the connectors. The quality is really very good. The finish and tolerances are consistent. considering the delivered price, what's not to like? From a purely mechanical standpoint, these appear to be an excellent value. All parts are well made. The threads are not crude or loose, everything looks precision which is amazing at just over a $1 ea. :thumb:
The business end that fits into the speaker terminals is highly polished, and slightly tapered for ease of insertion. At the point it measures .162", at the far end (tightest) its .170" with an average mid point of .165". All the speaker terminals I measured are .150" ID. These are from speakers 30 years old to present day. The .015" oversize connectors with a slight lead-in taper make for a nice tight fit without the danger of breaking them, at least with the terminals I tried on 4 different speakers.
There is a through hole in the connectors, so it might be possible to solder the speaker wire directly to the tip? Also, the tip under magnification appears to be welded/soldered into the connector body, not just staked into it. IMO the tip is too long, at least for all my speakers. This could cause possible breakage if banged hard enough. I have always wondered why banana plugs are so long? I wonder if cutting them shorter to match the insertion depth of the terminals would be a good idea?
I know some have had a problem with 10 ga wire not allowing the screws to be flush with the body preventing the barrel from fitting. I think it is quite possible to shorten the screw by inserting it backwards and using a file, sanding, or cutting with a Dremel to the needed length. Even if the concern of removing the plating (gold?) is something real, then one could remove the excess length from the slotted end and cut a new slot with a Dremel with an abrasive wheel.
These are my initial observations/ideas after receiving my Naks from a "NOT SO SLOW BOAT" So far they meet and exceed my expectations of "CHEAP AND CHEERFUL" :thumb: :thumb:
Now I have to decide on a good C&C speaker wire???
Larry
-
I bought a second set of 24 on 5/10 and they arrived on 5/19. It took 3 days to get to NYC and the rest of the time to get to my house here in Minnesota. Apparently, it's either a slow train, truck or plane from NYC to Minneapolis......
Now almost every speaker here has them in use.
Wayner
-
Hey guys, sorry to try to revive an old thread; hopefully someone is still looking and will see this. I'm looking to get some BFA-style plugs, and I have been looking at the Nakamichi knock-offs Wayner posted, but posts here and elsewhere suggest people are waiting up to a month or more to get them. I'd really like to get some plugs sooner if possible, so I've been looking at these:
GLS "wave flex""
http://www.speakerrepair.com/page/product/waveflex-banana/WF24.html
KnuKonceptz BFA plugs
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=eKs-BP2
Both are more expensive than the Nakamichis, but still in my opinion in the general realm of “cheap and cheerful,” and both available in the US, so I was hoping I might be able to get them sooner. And—since they are sold by the actual companies they claim to be (unlike the “Knock-off-michis”), I’m hoping they might actually be gold-plated as they claim, and may conduct a signal a little better than that brass (or whatever they are) Nakamichis that don’t have any gold or copper according to Wayner’s test. My only reservations about them are:
1. The GLS ones are available on Amazon from the original seller, but 3 of the 5 reviewers said they had trouble fitting them in their binding posts and had to modify them w/pliers. Some said they were cheaply made too.
2. I can’t find anything online about the KnuKonceptz BFA plugs, including a picture of what they look like taken apart. I’d like to know what’s under the collar (e.g., 1 vs. 2 screws; if there are 2, are they on the same or opposite sides) before I buy them.
Anyone have any experience with these, or with GLS or KnuKonceptz products in general? Any thoughts from the info in these links? Any input would be much appreciated. Thanks!
-
Welcome Chigo. Just from the links they don't look any different from the Nak bananas and despite the US address, are prolly all made overseas, perhaps even drop shipped from there. They are all plugs that hold wires and none of them would be high copper content, alloy or otherwise, and the plating would be more polish than gold. If you're from the camp that none of this makes any difference in sound quality, you can hardly be injured for the priced paid.
-
Thanks, Letitroll98. I contacted both GLS and Knukonceptz w/ questions, and GLS got back to me right away. Based on this quick, helpful response and the experiences of others in various forums, they seem to have good customer service; since shipping is free, I'm going to try them and return them if they don't work. Thanks again!
-
Monoprice.com for decent stuff w/o the stupid prices. But if it doesn't cost an arm and a leg how good can it be. :roll:
-
Well Switchcraft RCA's are highly regarded and the Nickel plated copper alloy body & handle ones are about $2.15 and the Gold plated model about $5 each. So it's not really cost all the time, however quality can vary independent of cost sometimes.
-
Letitroll98
I agree with you 100%.
-
I have had excellent results from the rhodium plated A&B Systems plugs. They are on the bay. They make a tight fit, are well made,and use two screws. Even come with allen wrench. I have had good luck with all their products. Regards
-
RE: Nakamichi BFA Speaker banana plug connector 24k Gold plated 0534E - - http://www.nakamichiplug.com/product-0534E12.html (http://www.nakamichiplug.com/product-0534E12.html) purchased directly from Nakamichiplug.com, not from ebay.
Does 12 AWG fit into these plugs? I would think that if 16 AWG (1.291 mm diameter) doubled over fits, 14 AWG (1.628 mm) or 12 AWG (2.053 mm) should fit. I could always heat shrink over the screw if it stuck out a bit.
TIA!
-
RE: Nakamichi BFA Speaker banana plug connector 24k Gold plated 0534E - - http://www.nakamichiplug.com/product-0534E12.html (http://www.nakamichiplug.com/product-0534E12.html) purchased directly from Nakamichiplug.com, not from ebay.
Does 12 AWG fit into these plugs? I would think that if 16 AWG (1.291 mm diameter) doubled over fits, 14 AWG (1.628 mm) or 12 AWG (2.053 mm) should fit. I could always heat shrink over the screw if it stuck out a bit.
TIA!
And understand this is not the Nakamichi company that makes the electronic components. This is a knockoff offshore company that has stolen the Nakamichi name. The exact same plug can be had under a number of different brand names, so ordering from eBay or their site, it's all the same.
Personally I would prefer either a brand name product, or at least a Chinese company that doesn't pretend to be something it's not. I think there can be some really good plugs and connectors ordered direct offshore, ones where they list the material their made of. Of course that's no guarantee you'll get what's advertised, but you could order a small quantity and check before ordering more.
-
I am aware that it is not the Japanese company that most people associate with the name. However, I thought I had come across some reviews/threads on various sites that noted a difference between plugs ordered directly from nakamichi.plug and those ordered from resellers on Ebay. As the prices are the same and the shipping is free, if I do order, I'll order directly from the nakamichiplug website.
Given that nakamichiplug uses the exact same logo as http://www.nakamichi.com (http://www.nakamichi.com), I wonder if nakamichiplug has some type of licensing agreement with the original Japanese company. One would think that Nakamichi would protect their brandname and logo. Then again, maybe Nakamichi screwed up somewhere and didn't protect their name. In any case, given the reviews and price, I might purchase some. Heck, as someone noted previously, probably most of the plugs sold by other companies are made in China as well.
-
just ran into this thread while deciding if i wanted to change up my nakamichi bfa plugs. sorry for another thread revival.
i bought mine 3 years ago from nakamichiplug.com , i will chop a few up when i get a chance to see if it was the same 3 years ago.
i've had a few stripped set screw holes. never had a bent plug, and i've had them in use since march of 2010. they fit as tight as can be. i got like 80 of these sitting in my drawer still, so chopping up a few won't be a problem.
-
wanted to mention, i cut apart one of my banana plugs at the tip area, and under the plating, it is indeed copper colored material, the plating flaked off at the part i cut it at.
for the main body of the banana i took a file to it and filed away approximately 1mm of material, and it was all gold colored powder throughout, nothing copper colored.
these were purchased 3/6/2010 from nakamichiplug.com
-
Just wanted to post an update in case anyone is interested.
I ordered the GLS Wave Flex plugs. They were well-made but as other reviewers had mentioned, were too big to fit well into my binding posts. I could have modified them with pliers like some reviewers mentioned they had, but that would leave them mangled and irregularly shaped (I certainly don’t have any magic, perfect plier mashing skills), thus defeating the purpose of bfa-style plugs (greater contact) altogether. So I returned them and ordered the Knukonceptz bfas instead. They came in a few days, were very well-made, and fit perfectly. And I liked the fact that they use silver and black barrels to distinguish positive vs. negative (it’s less conspicuous than the red and black favored by many banana plug manufacturers; I don’t really like my cables to stand out). I covered them with black heat shrink to minimize the (unlikely) risk of a short should they ever happen to touch while connected, and to make them all black to be even less conspicuous (I can still see the silver on each end when I look closely at the top and bottom of the silver barrels, so easy enough to tell which is which). All in all, they were prefect for my needs. They are a little more expensive than the Nakamichis and I doubt they are any better in quality or performance, but they are a great alternative for anyone not wanting to wait on a boat from China who is willing to pay a bit more to get them within a few days.