[JohninCR]

"(so all bets are off with the new XO)"

That statement leaves your comparisons "chasing the wind", whatever activity that is.

[nodiak]

Hi Raj, is there anything about your current speakers character you'd like to change? Or would you like to keep a similar character, but in an ob? IOW - looking for an evolutionary step, or to try something different?
Don

[scorpion]

Hi John,

I am extremly satiesfied with the D/A conversion done with the Behringer DCX 2496. My Sony transport is also showing its all
strongpoints. I have not heard any sole D/A conversion unit like 8 unit 1543s NOS beeing better. Rather the contrast.

But your are right about the vinyl. Well I am to try A/D conversion and see what it will be.

/Erling

[hurdy_gurdyman]

For the record, here are the comments Dave Dlugos posted in their entirety.

We had an afternoon with the B200 (modified) and the SI with the original XO (so all bets are off with the new XO).

I've not seen 2 drivers do a better job of full-filling their stereotypes. The B200 has it all over the SI in terms of midrange as one would expect with a single XO-less driver vrs a 15 with XO trying to reach up into the midrange. Also as one would expect the B200 has better, more 3 dimensional imaging. Also as one would expect, the SI has more & deeper bass, and throws a huge (but flattish) soundstage. The size is appealing, but the flattish nature is a bit of a set back. The 1 place where the sterotype is not played out is in the top-end where the phase-plugged B200 is actually better balanced than the SI horn.

Almost all the things i have issue with in the SI have to do with having the XO right there in the critical midrange, and immediately set us thinking of was to improve that. The next day i was reminded of the new HDXO so am in the process of junk0-boxing one of those. We will also try active -- PLLXO 1st, but there is some merit into using the 4th order Bessel trick to time align the tweeter & the woofer.

I couldn't live with the 1st gen SI because of the midrange discontinuity, but the XO change is aimed directly at this probelm. The modded B200 is also ~25% more $$$ and after hearing the effortless bottom on an SI, you'll be wanting to add an auggie, so that makes even more $$

On a B200 vrs Fostex note. The B200 doesn't seem to suffer from the FR anomolies that Fostex lovers, love to hate. When we phase plug a set of Fostex, it not only improves the HF dispersion & opens the midrange up, but usually kills some of those nasties. When i opened up the B200, dispersion was quite improved, the mid was opened up a tiny bit, but the smooth nature of the driver remained the same.

dave

It's still an invalid comparison, as that is with the old XO, which hasn't been available in ages. The old XO had some serious issus that have been corrected in the new ones.

As for the baffle sizes making the comparison more valid somehow, I don't buy that. If a driver (either driver) is in a baffle that goes against what it was designed for, no useful or accurate info can be gained from making a judgement on it's qualities when listening to it. The SI was in a baffle that assures it would sound bad. What kind of fair evaluation could that make? For that matter, if the B200 was in the wrong baffle, how could one make accurate judgements on it's sound? Until both speakers are in a proper baffle, no fair comparison can be made of them. I believe Scorpion heard them both in baffles in what are considered "proper" for each driver. Both drivers seem to be good performers. Which one a person likes will be more a matter of taste, not because of a quality issue or some kind of flaw in one of them.

Dave

[fergs1]

Greetings Ladies and Gentlemen, hey Scorpian the B200 in the content baffle  with sub crossed at 150hz sounds awesome. I run my b200 fullrange. Did you try the b200 running fullrange in this system and if so what difference diid it make.By the way what crossover are you using to get 48ddb/octave because I feel my sound could be improved with a steeper curve on the sub(currently 24db/o) and what sub are you using.My setup was built by Nigel and every time I turn on the system I am seduced time and time again. Like you say Scorpian 'What a sound'
                       peace and goodwill     fergs

[Wind Chaser]

Here is another perspective from someone who has owned both.

I haven't heard the SI's (but would like to) so I have no opinion other than you can probably get away with a smaller room using an 8" driver as opposed to a 15" driver.

Hemp Acoustics should be releasing a new OB driver soon...no doubt that will be an excellent choice too.

[scorpion]

Hi Fergs,

I owe you an answer. This is what I have accomplished so far with my digital units:



Mesured in my livingroom with one prototype U-baffle with 2 12" units and one prototype H-baffle with 2 12" units.
There is a L-R 48 dB HP cut off at 28 Hz and a L-R 48 dB crossover between bass and B200 at 151 Hz. Nowadays I bottom the little
Trends TA-10 class D amp rather than the B200.

I use two Behringer units, the DCX2496 for crossover and filters and the SRC2496 for advanced AD/DA conversion. Both work great.

/Erling

[Rudolf]

Hi Erling,

with almost +/- 4 dB in room this looks quite impressive! Without a DCX my system is stuck to +/- 8 dB at the listening position in my room. Were your measurements done at the listening pos. or at a fixed distance from the baffles? And how come that both U- and H-baffle result in the same response curve?

BTW: I have published my M-baffle dipoles with the Visaton W 250 (http://rudolffinke.homepage.t-online.de/audio/Dipol/M%20frame/M%20frame%20W250.pdf) and got first positive reactions in the hifi-forum (http://www.hifi-forum.de/index.php?action=browseT&back=2&sort=lpost&forum_id=104&thread=9530) You might be interested to have a look at it. But everything is in German, I´m afraid. 

Rudolf
www.dipolplus.de

[Bob in St. Louis]

I haven't heard the SI's (but would like to)

Where do you live?

you can probably get away with a smaller room using an 8" driver as opposed to a 15" driver.

The creator of the SI has a 10" Coaxial in development, shouldn't be too much longer.

Bob

[Wind Chaser]

Where do you live?

About 32 hours NW of St Louis / more than 2100 miles away in Peachland, BC - Canada.  And no, we haven't had or seen any snow here in about a  month.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Well,  that rules out a listening session at my house anytime soon.

Bob

[JohninCR]

Bob,

Time to face the facts, you'll have to come for a visit and hear both in multiple alignments head to head.  You have till May to sample the best weather on the planet (according to Nat'l Geographic). aa

[Bob in St. Louis]

I've ALWAYS wanted to drive (yes, I said DRIVE ).
I love the driving experience more than the destination John.
But a good friend of mine (who is from San Diago Chile [sp?]) told me I'd never live through the trip.
The Central Americans would spank my narrow white ass.

Thanks for the temptation John.
Maybe someday when the family is rich enough, we'll make it down there for vacation.
For now, we'll have to manage driving the continental US.

Bob

[JohninCR]

I love driving trips too, but that's not one I'd make.  Kidnapping and worse has become big business in too many of the frontier areas along the way.  Drive to Miami or New Orleans and fly from there.  It can be done a lot cheaper than you'd think.  Bring a few projectors and laptops to sell and finance a big chunk of your trip.  My buddy's hotel is so cheap, it's practically free.

[scorpion]

Hi Rudolf,

I was in fact quite amazed of achieving such results. I think the results are OK, I built a mic from Panasonic WM-61A units and used the Arta Package for measurement. I did adjusted bass-resonse at 40,55 and 80 a bit (room dependent, I think) but the B200 ran almost flat
in my winged baffle. Since the measurement I have taken down response a bit round the 5 kHz top to have a more balanced response. At least to my ears ! But I can now understand people that do not adjust their B200 response depending on their baffle response.

Microphone and Left Channel image:

and


The measurement was taken in the listening position about 2.5 m from each speaker. It is based on an average of 20 iterations. There is only one microphonechannel so although the whole stereo-system is measured it has to adjust to the conditions. The Bass-speakers are far from optimal. I have three different options to play with. I think my first choice will be two pairs of P-Audio 12" OEM's in H-baffles (here in the U-baffle) with the following parameters:   MDS Maxeffekt: 300 Frekvensomfång: 40-4000 SPL dB 1W/1m: 91 Magnet Oz: 30 Fs Hz: 28 Qts: 0,62 Vas liter: 112 . The Bass units so far are far from optimal in construction and I hope for even better response when finalazing this setup. I will also try WoolMount later for Bass and Fullrange units, to be explained later in text and pictures.

I hope that the bassunits will prove good because I have a lot of intersting fullrangers and mid-top options to test.

Only the B200s are active in the winged baffles.

Reading and listening/interpreting German is OK, speaking gramatically correct is quite another thing !

Mind, I have done quite a few changes to my setup now.
1st Trends TA-10 ver 1.1 modded for RF cancellation. Very Good in my opinion. Running the B200. Nad 1000/216 playing Bass.
2nd Digital interfaces SRC 2496 and DCX 2496. Both very capable. I have compared Ben Webster's SOULVILLE in vinyl over the SRC2496 AD-interface and the same record on CD over SPDIF. The Vinyl winns by a great margine ! In fact vinylrecords get a new life treated over the
SRC2496. No kidding !
3rd Battery power for the Trends TA-10. Calmer, more authoritative, better definition. Recommended.

PS. I have read your thread at Hi-Fi Forum net now and on your web. Yes, this is the thing, same measures as I envisaged for my subs.
I think, for anything but the most extreme music, you will do perfectly well with two good bass elements per side. As I can judge from the way my subs perform together with the B200. I have 12" units.


/Erling

[Russell Dawkins]

Erling,

I was quite happy to see this:
I use two Behringer units, the DCX2496 for crossover and filters and the SRC2496 for advanced AD/DA conversion. Both work great.

because I wondered how well this Behringer stuff would compare to something much more expensive. I have read good things about the SRC2496, but have also read that it is going out of production.

[scorpion]

Russell,

The SRC2496 was quite a bit of surprise. I bought it second hand to take care of analogue sources. And how it does !
The way I use the units are like this: Analogue inputs go from Tape output of my NAD preamp to Analogue Input of the SRC2496. The CD digital output is connected to the SRC2496 Digital Input. All signals are then converted to 24 bit 96 kHz digital format before entering
the DCX 2496. Here all crossover and additional filters are applied before outputting DA-converted signals to bass- and fullrange-amps.

There is one problem, although not overwhelming, that is Volume Control. Rudolf asked me earlier about this. With Analogue sources there is no problem, they are handled by the SRC2496. With digital sources, yes I have to check both fullrange and bass levels.

/Erling

[Russell Dawkins]

Erling,
do either the DCX2496 or the SRC2496 have polarity switching or remote control?
Probably too much to ask, but just occured to me.

Russell

[scorpion]

Russell,

DCX2496 has polarity, phase and delay adjustment to all what you will want. No remote !

Polarbear, Björn of Norway, gave me this URL for the ultimate DCX tweek:

http://www.dcx2496.fr/en/cadre_en.htm

Here you can have it all ! But at a cost ! However it might be worth it because of the extremly good AD/DA conversion.

/Erling