AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: jsalk on 29 Apr 2014, 04:01 pm
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First, a little background...
Almost a year ago, a good friend asked us to build a pair of stand-mounted monitors using the Seas Exotica 8" high efficiency woofer and tweeter. When I first fired them up, I recall immediately thinking I was listening to something really quite special. But the drivers were quite expensive and the design only played down to 51 hz.
I liked them so much, though, when we left for the Rocky Mountain Audiofest last October, I decided to take them along. Needless to say, the reaction to them was very positive. So we added them to our web site. Of course, $6000 is somewhat pricey (although certainly worth it for the right application) for a speaker that only plays down to about 51 hz. But based on the feedback we received at RMAF, I felt the need to develop a 3-way model using these drivers.
Where to go from here...
The question is, what would we use for the woofer section? If we used a high efficiency woofer (so as not to lose any sensitivity), the cabinet would be very large and the resulting speakers would still not play all that low. So, while certainly workable, it just didn't seem like the optimum solution.
At the time I was thinking about all of this, Brian Ding at Rythmik told me about a new dual 8" subwoofer design he was coming out with. I thought this new design might play high enough to use in this application and provide bass down into the mid-20's or below. If so, I thought that this might be the perfect solution. So we waited through months of production delays (always the case for new products) for the drivers and amps to become available. Brian was kind enough to ship us some early units right off the production line so we didn't have to wait any longer than necessary to begin our testing.
We started with the basic Exotica 2-way (using the same Dennis Murphy crossover used in the Exotica 2-way). But we didn't need it to play to 50 hz. So we removed the front slot port and went with a sealed cabinet for what would become the midrange section of this new design. This took the F3 from 51 hz up to about 110 hz, which means we would be relieving the woofer of some bass duties and increasing power handling in the process.
We then measured the roll off of the Exotica woofer and developed a complimentary cross to the dual 8" woofers. Following that, we adjusted the phase and gain for the best possible crossover to what would become our woofer section.
We were able to tap off the speaker binding posts to generate the input signal for the servo amps (a separate amp for each driver). So no separate preamp input would be required for the woofer section.
What we ended up with was a passive design for the tweeter/midrange section and a sealed, active, servo-controlled woofer section with 400 watts of power applied to each of the 8" woofers.
Axpona was coming up, so we decided to build a production cabinet and see if we might be able to preview this new design at the show. Of course, we were still fine-tuning and didn't yet know if this would end up being a product we would release or not. And since I don't like to talk about designs before they exist, I didn't want to say much more than we MIGHT have something new for the show.
As is often the case with products that are show-bound, we finally finished the first production pair of cabinets the day before we were leaving for AXPONA. So we still had nothing to announce.
Final assembly started the next morning and was actually taking place as we were beginning to pack the trailer. We were able to get all the final assembly done in time, but didn't really have a chance to give them a good listen in their new cabinets. So we brought a pair of SoundScape 8's for backup.
When we got to the show, we set up this new model in order to run it through its paces. Right from the start, I knew it would remain in place for the duration. And the reaction to them was universally positive.
I will take some pictures of this first pair when we get them unpacked. And I would be happy to answer any questions as well.
That's the story and I'm sticking to it.
- Jim
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Thanks Jim. We always appreciate "the story" behind the development of your speaker products. Sure sounds like a winner.
There were a couple different price tags posted on the forum, is there a price yet?
Good luck!!
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The base price will be $11,995 per pair.
- Jim
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Hi Jim,
How would you compare the sound of the SS8's with the new Exotica 3's?
Thanks,
Ernie
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Sheeesh, now my dream speaker is torn between this and the SS8. What to fantasize about? What to save for? Oh my.....
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Sheeesh, now my dream speaker is torn between this and the SS8. What to fantasize about? What to save for? Oh my.....
seriously!
Can't wait for people to start purchasing these and posting impressions, especially compared to the SS8s
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Well, my only experience with SS8s was at Axpona (oddly similar to my experience listening to the Exoticas and the STs) :wink:, but I was able to come to a couple conclusions.
First allow me to declare a preference for soft dome tweeters over ribbon tweeters. I didn't know this until this past weekend. I got to listen to so many different speakers from so many manufacturers that I am certain of my preference. I am still unable to find an adjective to describe ribbon sounds vs domes....perhaps 'surgical', or 'scalpel-like' (analytical??--Did I really say that?) rather than a soft enveloping sweetness?? [I know..."scalpel-like?!? WTH is he saying?] Whatever the adjective, I know what I prefer now.
It's possible I prefer 'standard' midrange cones over Accuton mids, but I want to spend more time comparing before I stand up and unequivocally declare a preference.
I was in the Salk/AVA room a total of 6 or 7 (8?) times during the three-day show, so I got to listen to all three speakers, but most of the time was spent on the Exoticas. I love the sounds that emanated from the Exoticas. Had I not heard the Exoticas first, I suspect I would not have noticed that anything was 'missing' from the SS8s. I think (want to believe??) that the bass was just a little better/faster in the Exoticas. I felt warm pleasure flow over my mind. Was I sitting in front of speakers or was I immersed in music? [I know I was immersed.] When Frank switched out the Exoticas to the SS8s, I detected a shift in the mid- and higher frequencies that resulted in a less warm feeling. I knew in a matter of seconds that I wanted Frank to switch back to the Exoticas.
Okay, I'm no expert audiophile reviewer, but you get what you paid for my opinion. :)
I think it was Saturday when I walked up to Jim to say, "I get it now. Now I know why so many people love your speakers, Jim."
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Well, my only experience with SS8s was at Axpona (oddly similar to my experience listening to the Exoticas and the STs) :wink:, but I was able to come to a couple conclusions.
First allow me to declare a preference for soft dome tweeters over ribbon tweeters. I didn't know this until this past weekend. I got to listen to so many different speakers from so many manufacturers that I am certain of my preference. I am still unable to find an adjective to describe ribbon sounds vs domes....perhaps 'surgical', or 'scalpel-like' (analytical??--Did I really say that?) rather than a soft enveloping sweetness?? [I know..."scalpel-like?!? WTH is he saying?] Whatever the adjective, I know what I prefer now.
It's possible I prefer 'standard' midrange cones over Accuton mids, but I want to spend more time comparing before I stand up and unequivocally declare a preference.
I was in the Salk/AVA room a total of 6 or 7 (8?) times during the three-day show, so I got to listen to all three speakers, but most of the time was spent on the Exoticas. I love the sounds that emanated from the Exoticas. Had I not heard the Exoticas first, I suspect I would not have noticed that anything was 'missing' from the SS8s. I think (want to believe??) that the bass was just a little better/faster in the Exoticas. I felt warm pleasure flow over my mind. Was I sitting in front of speakers or was I immersed in music? [I know I was immersed.] When Frank switched out the Exoticas to the SS8s, I detected a shift in the mid- and higher frequencies that resulted in a less warm feeling. I knew in a matter of seconds that I wanted Frank to switch back to the Exoticas.
Okay, I'm no expert audiophile reviewer, but you get what you paid for my opinion. :)
I think it was Saturday when I walked up to Jim to say, "I get it now. Now I know why so many people love your speakers, Jim."
Makes sense to me. That immersion is an emotional connection to the musical reproduction of the system. It's a connection similar to what you hear at a live concert, and one of the main things I'm looking for when I review an audio component. The AVA/Salk room, as well as several other rooms, had the "immersion factor."
Cheers,
Paul Mah
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Great to hear Jim!
This sounds like a very engaging speaker
I love when you unveil something unannounced at a show
Will these be going to RMAF?
What is the sensitivity and ohm?
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The best way to compare speakers is the way that Jim and Frank did at Expona. Yet, even with that advantage there can be other variables. One of the biggest ones is synergy. One speaker may respond best with one system over another system? I have been optimizing my system for 6 months to sound best with my new amps. I have been Changing tubes, preamp gain, RCA vs. XLR cables and such. Different speakers or amps could be better with a different configuration. On my system these changes produce very dramatic differences.
Bob
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I agree with Bob.
And in addition. The SS8 is allowing me to hear every change I have made to my system. Things become so much easier to fine tune the sound to my liking. So far, adding BAT VK32se preamp make the biggest improvement after the Salk in my system. Everything are just richer and more alive than before.
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"Well, my only experience with SS8s was at Axpona (oddly similar to my experience listening to the Exoticas and the STs) :wink:, but I was able to come to a couple conclusions.
First allow me to declare a preference for soft dome tweeters over ribbon tweeters. I didn't know this until this past weekend. I got to listen to so many different speakers from so many manufacturers that I am certain of my preference. I am still unable to find an adjective to describe ribbon sounds vs domes....perhaps 'surgical', or 'scalpel-like' (analytical??--Did I really say that?) rather than a soft enveloping sweetness?? [I know..."scalpel-like?!? WTH is he saying?] Whatever the adjective, I know what I prefer now.
It's possible I prefer 'standard' midrange cones over Accuton mids, but I want to spend more time comparing before I stand up and unequivocally declare a preference.
I was in the Salk/AVA room a total of 6 or 7 (8?) times during the three-day show, so I got to listen to all three speakers, but most of the time was spent on the Exoticas. I love the sounds that emanated from the Exoticas. Had I not heard the Exoticas first, I suspect I would not have noticed that anything was 'missing' from the SS8s. I think (want to believe??) that the bass was just a little better/faster in the Exoticas. I felt warm pleasure flow over my mind. Was I sitting in front of speakers or was I immersed in music? [I know I was immersed.] When Frank switched out the Exoticas to the SS8s, I detected a shift in the mid- and higher frequencies that resulted in a less warm feeling. I knew in a matter of seconds that I wanted Frank to switch back to the Exoticas.
Okay, I'm no expert audiophile reviewer, but you get what you paid for my opinion. :)
Cheers,
Paul Mah
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I must say that I have never heard a dome tweeter that was as accurate in reproducing the sound of a live orchestra as the RAAL. I'll go out on a limb and say that any preferences you heard for the Exotica were based on the midrange reproduction. The Exotica tweeter is very smooth, and has a very controlled off-axis response. But it can't match the extension or dispersion of the RAAL. A quick A-B between any dome and the RAAL on program material that is rich in very high-order harmonics (cymbals, picollo, triangles) will reveal that in a second. "Analytical" often translates into "Accuracy", and "warm" often translates into "something's missing," or perhaps something different in the midrange, not the tweeter. In any event, I'm looking forward to hearing the new 3-way Exotica's at the Capital Audio Fest in July. Jim and I will be sharing a room. Of course, the Exotica's will be up against some very stiff competition--my $275/pr towers. Not sure how good they sound, but they come with a backup camera and GPS.
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...... Not sure how good they sound, but they come with a backup camera and GPS....
:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
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Dennis,
I dare not argue with you on the RAILs vs domes. I'll take your statement as a suggestion that I spend more time with a RAAL equipped speaker.
At that low price, I'll take ten pairs. :wink:
I hope I get a chance to hear your speakers someday.
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Dennis,
I dare not argue with you on the RAILs vs domes. I'll take your statement as a suggestion that I spend more time with a RAAL equipped speaker.
At that low price, I'll take ten pairs. :wink:
I hope I get a chance to hear your speakers someday.
You may be in luck. Where are you in Oregon? I have a pair of Dennis' Philharmonic 2's with the RAALs (sorry, not the new affordable jobs). And I'm with Dennis on this. I've directly compared RAAL equipped speakers with many, many domed speakers of various stripe. I'll never go back to dome...or to state it more accurately, I'm a nutty fan of the RAAL tweeters...especially WHEN PROPERLY INTEGRATED. And that's Dennis' forte, btw. The RAAL has clarity, accuracy and ease of presentation throughout its range and up to HF audio heaven. :D (You likely will get near unanimity on that around these parts.)
All that said, I haven't heard the Exoticas which I expect are fabulous speakers.
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Initial impressions are just that. When I worked in stereo in the eighties we would put a new speaker together with the best front end in the store and get all bubbly and worked up on the "new" sound. We would use the speaker selector to put them up against everything in the store. After a few weeks it would all sort itself with a new pecking order. Sometimes the "new" ones would gather dust after that. Speakers that sounded so clear at first often were too fatiguing in the long run. I'm only saying this because in a show everything might be the new speaker to you. Hard to sort out in a short listening session for us regular Joes.
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Mudslide,
I'm in Corvallis. Where are you?
Michael
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First allow me to declare a preference for soft dome tweeters over ribbon tweeters. I didn't know this until this past weekend. I got to listen to so many different speakers from so many manufacturers that I am certain of my preference. I am still unable to find an adjective to describe ribbon sounds vs domes....perhaps 'surgical', or 'scalpel-like' (analytical??--Did I really say that?) rather than a soft enveloping sweetness?? [I know..."scalpel-like?!? WTH is he saying?] Whatever the adjective, I know what I prefer now.
I must admit that I was a big "soft dome tweeter" fan myself before I got my Veracity STs. I'm not saying I would never buy speakers with anything else than ribbon tweeters ever again but the blend is so nice on the Veracity STs that I don't think it would be a major consideration, now. In the past, I've had "not so good" to "bad" listening sessions with speakers which had a ribbon tweeters but realized that the blend - not the tweeter - just did not work for me. With the RAAL, I have precision and incredible musicality but without harshness or fatigue and it's very enjoyable.
Now, Jim, when are you finally coming over to Europe (preferably southwestern France...) ?! I want to hear these new Exotica 3 as well as the SS8 !!! ;)
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Mudslide,
I'm in Corvallis. Where are you?
Michael
If the east winds ever blow you over to Lincoln City, perhaps you can audition some speakers, especially Philharmonic Audio Phil 2's....see how you like the RAALs. :thumb:
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Why does the Exotica 3 use a dome tweeter versus a ribbon? At 1.5 times the prices of the SS8s, wouldn't you be taking a downgrade to the high end performance?
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\First allow me to declare a preference for soft dome tweeters over ribbon tweeters. I didn't know this until this past weekend. I got to listen to so many different speakers from so many manufacturers that I am certain of my preference. I am still unable to find an adjective to describe ribbon sounds vs domes....perhaps 'surgical', or 'scalpel-like' (analytical??--Did I really say that?) rather than a soft enveloping sweetness?? [I know..."scalpel-like?!? WTH is he saying?] Whatever the adjective, I know what I prefer now.
I've had two speakers with RAAL's and the last two with domes. I prefer the domes also.
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I've had two speakers with RAAL's and the last two with domes. I prefer the domes also.
Yeah, hard to disagree with the experts and what's "right" and accurate. But I'm in the dome camp also after my experience with the RAAL.
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What domes tweeters are you guys refering? Im sure that most domes will sound widely different between models while the raal may actually sound similiar within their models.
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For me...
RAAL = Selah Tempesta and Vapor Audio Cirrus
Domes = Daedalus Pan (Eton) and dc10audio Briton II's (Scanspeak)
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Great to hear Jim!
This sounds like a very engaging speaker
I love when you unveil something unannounced at a show
Will these be going to RMAF?
Yes, we will.
What is the sensitivity and ohm?
They are basically an 8-ohm design that is about 92db sensitive.
- Jim
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I am looking forward to hearing this in DC (Rockville, actually). What would happen if you were to put the same active bass unit with an SS top? Is there a possibility of an SS82active? Or is the Accuton mid range not a good fit?
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Why does the Exotica 3 use a dome tweeter versus a ribbon? At 1.5 times the prices of the SS8s, wouldn't you be taking a downgrade to the high end performance?
That's a complicated question, which Jim might want to weigh in on. My take on it is that Jim wanted to try out the Exotica drivers, since they were very interesting, high in sensitivity, and a matched set. We often wondered how the sound would differ with the RAAL rather than the dome, but the initial reactions were so positive that Jim hasn't messed with a good thing. And there's room for honest disagreement about domes vs. ribbons. Notice that Jim brought the dome version of the ST's. In general, domes have more apparent energy in the 6 kHz region, while ribbons provide more information at the very top. As a result, some people think dome speakers have a more focused sound in the low-to-mid high frequencies, and some people prefer that. My real point is that there is nothing inaccurate about a very good ribbon. So I don't think they should be dismissed as "analytical" or "antiseptic" or whatever.
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In general, domes have more apparent energy in the 6 kHz region, while ribbons provide more information at the very top. As a result, some people think dome speakers have a more focused sound in the low-to-mid high frequencies, and some people prefer that.
It will be interesting to see if our tweeter preferences change as we age, those wonderful RAAL highs I now enjoy may just become a fond memory.
Wayne
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Why does the Exotica 3 use a dome tweeter versus a ribbon? At 1.5 times the prices of the SS8s, wouldn't you be taking a downgrade to the high end performance?
Good question. While price does not necessarily equate to quality, the Exotic tweeter is more expensive than the RAAL ribbon tweeter we use.
When we built the first Exotica 2-way monitor, it was at the request of a customer who wanted to use these drivers. I was a bit skeptical that they could be worth the price. But as soon as I fired them up, I was very impressed with what I was hearing. I had heard quite a few high-sensitivity drivers in the past and they always left me wanting. These were clearly different.
Was it the high sensitivity that I found alluring? Was it the cone material? Or was it the Alinico magnets? (It turns out that many of the most sought after vintage drivers used Alinco magnets. So it is likely that this was not just a coincidence.) Regardless, there was just something that drew me into the sound.
When contemplating a 3-way using the Exotic woofer, I thought about switching to the RAAL tweeter which is one of my all-time favorite drivers (we use more RAAL tweeters than any other). But what part of the magic I was hearing was due to the Alinico magnets in the Exotic tweeter? I certainly wouldn't want to lose any that magic. And there really wan't anything in the high treble I found lacking.
The T35 tweeter was designed to mate with the Exotic woofer. And they work very well together. So I saw no compelling reason to switch to the RAAL for this model. (If someone wants the Exotic/RAAL combination, we could certainly build it.) The other reason we stuck with the Exotic tweeter (and developed the woofer section the way we did) is that I was unwilling to give up any of the sensitivity of these drivers. Of course, the RAAL would not have, but most other tweeters we could have used would have.
So while I am a huge fan of RAAL ribbon tweeters and they probably would have worked in this design, I saw no particular compelling reason to switch. As the saying goes, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
We received comments from a number of different individuals who thought that the sound in our room at AXPONA was superior to any other time they had heard us at an audio show. So the speakers (and electronics) must have been doing something right.
I short, while I am obviously a huge fan of RAAL ribbon tweeters, I don't regard the use of the T35 as a "downgrade to high-end performance." It is just a different route to arrive at the same place...audio nirvana.
- Jim
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I see Dennis and Jim just responded to a number of previous posts about preferences of dome or ribbon tweeters. I'll try to add something…
It's always hard to talk about a tweeter's sound, by itself, for at least 2 reasons. One is that most of the tweeter's sound with instruments or voices consists of harmonic overtones and not the primary tone. In a typical 2-way speaker, with a 6.5" woofer, the crossover is about 2 to 2.5 kHz. If you are familiar with a piano (http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm), only the highest 2 or 3 octaves on the right side of the keyboard are above that range.
The other reason is that you never listen to a tweeter alone, without a midrange or mid-woofer and without a crossover. Recognizing that most of the primary tones are produced by the woofer, what I respond to when I "listen to a tweeter" is just how well a tweeter blends with the midrange or woofer.
First of all, a crossover designer must avoid using a tweeter at too low a frequency – most audible tweeter distortion results because of just that. Second, the crossover must also blend tweeter sound with the woofer. With sound in the crossover frequency range (± an octave), both drivers will produce roughly equal amounts of sound. They must be in acoustic phase with each other in that range. The tweeter's high pass curve and the woofer's low pass curve should be as symmetric with each other as possible. This is easier said than done, and is often the reason why some tweeters are said to be hard to work with, and others easy. If achieved, all this helps produce a cohesive and focused sound, and is largely responsible for producing good sound imaging.
A tweeter's upper frequency response (roughly 7 to 20 kHz) is not unimportant, but what makes a tweeter fail or succeed at "sounding good" is in its lower range (roughly 2 to 5 kHz). The crossover is right there. That's why I say you can't "listen to a tweeter" without noticing how well the crossover does its work.
That came out longer than I wanted. I hope someone follows it :thumb:.
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How would a pair of Exotica 2's with four Rythmik 12" subs compare to the Exotica 3's? The Exotica 3's are around $3k more than the 2's with four 12" subs.
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How would a pair of Exotica 2's with four Rythmik 12" subs compare to the Exotica 3's? The Exotica 3's are around $3k more than the 2's with four 12" subs.
That would appear to be a viable approach. The question is how well can all of the various parts be integrated? The 8" drivers we used integrate very well and we have everything dialed in. You may be able to do the same thing, but a good deal of work would be required to get everything well integrated. If you have measurement equipment and a good deal of time, it would probably be quite workable. If not, it could be somewhat hit or miss. (We could do this work, but would have to charge extra for doing it.)
Also, I think the paper cone woofers we used would be easier to integrate with the Exotic drivers (size and material-wise).
Finally, you would have a lot larger setup.
- Jim
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How would a pair of Exotica 2's with four Rythmik 12" subs compare to the Exotica 3's? The Exotica 3's are around $3k more than the 2's with four 12" subs.
Exotica 2's with two 12" subs would be more equal and likely play lower. Four subs would have far more output.
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I agree with Swerd. I don't think this should be a tweeter issue.
For me, once I heard this speaker I was hooked. Didn't matter to me if it was a dome. I have hated and loved domes. But I am buying the complete speaker so after a listen that component design may be a moot point if you like the overall sound.
I never heard the Exotica before. Moving away from Detroit means I don't get to the shop. Missed RMAF last year as well. Now that I have heard it AND it has been integrated with the bass drivers the overall sound is more what I want.
Those are not cheap drivers, but you get what you pay for. And you can buy a much smaller, lower powered amp now. :wink:
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And you can buy a much smaller, lower powered amp now. ;)
Is this what you will do? If so, what are you thinking about?
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Is this what you will do? If so, what are you thinking about?
No idea. Need to post amps and get money first!
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No idea. Need to post amps and get money first!
:lol:
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Swerdlow,
You may well be correct.
I've been going on about this or that tweeter because I assume it's a tweeter issue. I do not know that for a fact. It's quite possible that I was hearing an imperfect crossover, a misalignment between the mid-woofer/woofer and the tweeter, or a combination of drivers and crossovers experiencing a troubled relationship, or just bad rooms/acoustics. The possibilities are mind boggling.
After a good night's sleep and a delicious Macchiato this morning, I found myself wondering if I ought to be looking for a single driver speaker instead. Unless I'm mistaken, SEAS makes two Exotic full range drivers. Hmm. Worth looking into IMHO.
Great discussion on this thread!
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After a good night's sleep and a delicious Macchiato this morning, I found myself wondering if I ought to be looking for a single driver speaker instead. Unless I'm mistaken, SEAS makes two Exotic full range drivers. Hmm. Worth looking into IMHO.
If you keep thinking about how good a speaker sounds days after you've heard it, you're in trouble :lol:.
The only solution may be to buy a pair of Exoticas.
When considering single driver speakers, ask Jim or Dennis why there isn't one in the Salk line up.
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After a good night's sleep and a delicious Macchiato this morning,
That sounds like Starbucks talk. :scratch:
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Well reading all this sure set the mind into gear.
I was interested in the Seas Exotic line when I first heard all the chatter. The F8 full range drive has set a lot of the DIY forums, when N. Pass is excited and others about a driver it must be good.
Seas stated: " Seas Exotic is combining almost 60 years of Seas experience with the newest technology available.These drivers are addressing the market that requires ultra high end, high efficiency transducers."
These drivers with Jim speaker designs seem like a winning combination to me.
Switching the T35 with the Raal wouldn't be a chance I would want to take. The W8 and T35 were design to specifically fit together using the fabric and magnets. I would think you would loose something switching to the Raal. But what do I know.
I just got to figure how to raise the funds.
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That sounds like Starbucks talk. :scratch:
Starbucks? :duh:
Not so, good sir! My machine is a Rancilio "Miss" Silvia ll semi-automatic espresso maker. My coffee beans are Peru Aprocassi Organic.
http://www.wholelattelove.com/Rancilio/rancilio-silvia-redesigned-v3-espresso-machine.cfm?gclid=CLbIxb7oiL4CFQaBfgodLXMAwA
Miss Silvia is a bit more sensitive and requires a better quality grinder, but her crema is wonderful.
If ever you are in the area, stop by for a real espresso drink. :thumb:
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Starbucks? :duh:
Not so, good sir! My machine is a Rancilio "Miss" Silvia ll semi-automatic espresso maker. My coffee beans are Peru Aprocassi Organic.
http://www.wholelattelove.com/Rancilio/rancilio-silvia-redesigned-v3-espresso-machine.cfm?gclid=CLbIxb7oiL4CFQaBfgodLXMAwA (http://www.wholelattelove.com/Rancilio/rancilio-silvia-redesigned-v3-espresso-machine.cfm?gclid=CLbIxb7oiL4CFQaBfgodLXMAwA)
Miss Silvia is a bit more sensitive and requires a better quality grinder, but her crema is wonderful.
If ever you are in the area, stop by for a real espresso drink. :thumb:
Ah OK. I don't drink any of that stuff so I know nothing about it. :)
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I fell in love with the Exoticas at last fall's RMAF where Jim just had the two way bookshelf units.
To me, the most telling thing was that the Exotica two way units far and away reproduced string sound better then I have ever heard. The top strings on a bowed violin were just exquisitely realistic. Its something you just can't really understand without hearing it.
I heard the same thing on the new Exotica Threes at Axpona and that was it, me ordering speakers three times as expensive as anything I have ever owned before. These will take care of my "bucket list" for loudspeakers for sure.
Of course what also really pleased me was learning just how good our Fet Valve CF preamp, DAC, and 600R power amplifiers really are. That string sound would never have emerged without the driving electronics being just as good as the Exotica speakers.
Frank Van Alstine
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I think the dome tweeter the t35 can be crossed lower then the raal 70-20. The dome should mate better with the larger woofer.
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Frank, you've heard the Soundscapes at shows many times and yet you purchased the Exotica 3's after only a brief exposure. To me, this indicates that the E3 is really something special.
You mentioned it reproduced the strings better than anything you've heard. Can you clarify how it did so versus the Soundscape 8's? Any difference in your perception of the midrange versus the Accuton? What about the bass versus the dual woofers + PR on the SS8?
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After a good night's sleep and a delicious Macchiato this morning, I found myself wondering if I ought to be looking for a single driver speaker instead. Unless I'm mistaken, SEAS makes two Exotic full range drivers. Hmm. Worth looking into IMHO.
In the ideal world, the best speaker possible would be a single driver speaker. It is totally phase-coherent. Unfortunately, there are no single drivers I am aware of that handle upper treble well and have good bass extension at the same time. If you don't care about bass and can handle a top end that is perhaps a little rolled off, you might find a single driver you can fall in love with. I never have.
The other issue is that the off-axis response on the top end isn't normally all that good. Coherence in the midrange, however, can be excellent.
While there is much to be said for a good single driver design, I have yet to find one that works for me personally (and I have built quite a few for customers who wanted them). While I have never tried one, I would suspect the same feelings about the Exotic single drivers. And, of course, it is highly unlikely that Seas would have developed the T35 tweeter if they didn't also have the same reservations.
The Exotic woofer and tweeter combination does a marvelous job with the right crossover and a well-designed cabinet. If 50 Hz is all you need for bass extension, this is a hard combination to beat. But I personally want deeper bass response. The Exotica 3-way was designed to maintain all that was good in the 2-way combination and add excellent, extended bass to the mix.
The bottom line is that you may find an Exotic single driver that will meet your needs. But, personally, I'll pass on that one (of course we'd be happy to build it for anyone who wants a pair).
- Jim
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At $11,995 for the Exotica 3's and $11,999 for the SoundScape 10's, wouldn't the better value wise comparison to consider for the Exotica 3's be between them and the SS 10's rather than the SS 8's at $7,999??
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Of course what also really pleased me was learning just how good our Fet Valve CF preamp, DAC, and 600R power amplifiers really are. That string sound would never have emerged without the driving electronics being just as good as the Exotica speakers.
Geez Frank, the great sound had nothing to do with the electronics. Those speakers are so good that you can run them with just an I-Phone. :lol: come on guys, give Frank some love here (group hug) "Can't get no respect!" :lol: Seriously though, Franks gear is obviously not limiting the capabilities of all these Salks. You build great gear Frank. Maybe you Could just dress up the top unit. I know it's not your style but it obviously is for many audiophiles.
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What are the dimensions of these babies? And how far away fromt he wall do they have to be? Oh Brooklyn apartments...
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Geeze, I thought our silver Fet Valve units already were dressed up.
Or - - - should I go to Aluminati Sound and have them mill all new gold plated cases out of solid aluminum blocks for us.
Then we too could sell $20,000 each amplifiers and preamplifiers. Would that make everyone happy?
Frank
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Geeze, I thought our silver Fet Valve units already were dressed up.
Or - - - should I go to Aluminati Sound and have them mill all new gold plated cases out of solid aluminum blocks for us.
Then we too could sell $20,000 each amplifiers and preamplifiers. Would that make everyone happy?
Frank
I wouldn't mind a few diamonds glued to the fronts......
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Geeze, I thought our silver Fet Valve units already were dressed up.
Or - - - should I go to Aluminati Sound and have them mill all new gold plated cases out of solid aluminum blocks for us.
Then we too could sell $20,000 each amplifiers and preamplifiers. Would that make everyone happy?
Frank
Never going to please everybody. But the Exotica 3 users would be stoked with a really sweet sounding low watt, SET like hybrid amp to complement the higher efficiency top end of their new speaker.
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Never going to please everybody. But the Exotica 3 users would be stoked with a really sweet sounding low watt, SET like hybrid amp to complement the higher efficiency top end of their new speaker.
Can't speak for Frank, but stay tuned...
- Jim
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Geeze, I thought our silver Fet Valve units already were dressed up.
Or - - - should I go to Aluminati Sound and have them mill all new gold plated cases out of solid aluminum blocks for us.
Then we too could sell $20,000 each amplifiers and preamplifiers. Would that make everyone happy?
Frank
Never hurt to find a way to help your followers to please their eyes and their other half... I really like to try out AVA stuffs since everyone said they are very good match to my Salk but while the AVA equipment appearance are solid and functional but are also a "little blank" to my taste.
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Can't speak for Frank, but stay tuned...
- Jim
Tell us more!
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Jesus Frank, that was blown out of proportion wasn't it? Just make some nice faceplates, everyone wants them. What is so hard about that? We all want nice looking stuff. Your Fetvalves are not cheap, they just look cheap. Hence, no fanfare.
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I think the AVA stuff looks swell. Nice quality and nice knobs too. Clean and simple, quality, is what I like. Frank nailed that.
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Never hurt to find a way to help your followers to please their eyes and their other half... I really like to try out AVA stuffs since everyone said they are very good match to my Salk but while the AVA equipment appearance are solid and functional but are also a "little blank" to my taste.
Check out the NBS Preamp by Nos Valves its top notch
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I think the AVA stuff looks swell. Nice quality and nice knobs too. Clean and simple, quality, is what I like. Frank nailed that.
Yeah, the AVA stuff looks pretty good to me.
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Check out the NBS Preamp by Nos Valves its top notch
That's what I am using. And LOVING
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Your Fetvalves are not cheap, they just look cheap. Hence, no fanfare.
I couldn't disagree more. I'm also loving the looks of the Exotica 3, it's on my bucket list.
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Jesus Frank, that was blown out of proportion wasn't it? Just make some nice faceplates, everyone wants them. What is so hard about that? We all want nice looking stuff. Your Fetvalves are not cheap, they just look cheap. Hence, no fanfare.
Woudl YOU pay an extra $500 for that?
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With respect to the AVA gear, I could never get past a red rocker switch. Frank's gear looked and sounded great at Axpona. Great job!
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Woudl YOU pay an extra $500 for that?
I don't know about you or anybody else but if things look caught my eyes and also sound great then a bit extra of money are well worth it.
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With respect to the AVA gear, I could never get past a red rocker switch. Frank's gear looked and sounded great at Axpona. Great job!
I believe the new 'dressed up' gear, the ones with the silver faceplates have cool blue lights now. If the stock doesn't you could probably get them rather than the red. So that shouldn't hold you back any more. :thumb:
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I think the fet amps looks decent. The synergy line looks a bit too old fashion and thr red switch really needs a make over. They do however represent a great value.
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Woudl YOU pay an extra $500 for that?
Yes I would. On the flip side is this question. Would I spend $4500 on a FetValve without a good looking case? The answer is no. Many people would pony up for nicer casing. They do it all the time! Just look at the Salks in the same room. Salk wouldn't have made it a year with vinyl cabinets. Most of the posts in this circle show the veneers that people pick out. It's on equal footing with the sound. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.
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I think the fet amps looks decent. The synergy line looks a bit too old fashion and thr red switch really needs a make over. They do however represent a great value.
I agree.
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Yes I would. On the flip side is this question. Would I spend $4500 on a FetValve without a good looking case? The answer is no. Many people would pony up for nicer casing. They do it all the time! Just look at the Salks in the same room. Salk wouldn't have made it a year with vinyl cabinets. Most of the posts in this circle show the veneers that people pick out. It's on equal footing with the sound. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.
Sometimes when we're trying to make a point we can get a little exaggerated, the FetValve 600R is $3500.
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Yes I would. On the flip side is this question. Would I spend $4500 on a FetValve without a good looking case? The answer is no. Many people would pony up for nicer casing. They do it all the time! Just look at the Salks in the same room. Salk wouldn't have made it a year with vinyl cabinets. Most of the posts in this circle show the veneers that people pick out. It's on equal footing with the sound. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.
OK. I wouldn't spend any amount of money on something that I can't see published measurements though. However, Frank has really made it thus far by keeping the estetics to a minimum while providing a higher quality piece without breaking the bank for most. This is fairly rare in a time where high dollar audio equipement is almost the norm. Regardless of whether they're good or not, he has a niche with a very loyal fan base. Not a bad business model. Should he in my opinion expand the line to a fully balanced super amp? Yes, but he doesn't seem like he even wants to go up that tree or down the slippery slope. It's a massive investment and what he has works.
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OK. I wouldn't spend any amount of money on something that I can't see published measurements though. However, Frank has really made it thus far by keeping the estetics to a minimum while providing a higher quality piece without breaking the bank for most. This is fairly rare in a time where high dollar audio equipement is almost the norm. Regardless of whether they're good or not, he has a niche with a very loyal fan base. Not a bad business model. Should he in my opinion expand the line to a fully balanced super amp? Yes, but he doesn't seem like he even wants to go up that tree or down the slippery slope. It's a massive investment and what he has works.
Weren't you the same guy pumping that ($6,000!) TRL Dude preamp in several threads for a long time? The last time I checked, here is what they had to say about measurements : Tube Research Labs typically does not publish traditional measurements on its equipment's performance. These measurements illustrate how machines hear, not how humans hear. We probably are years away from having measurements which we can really associate to or correlate with the listenability of a device.
Do you have different sets of rules for different companies or components or can we assume you didn't actually pay any money for the preamp with no measurements? :scratch:
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Weren't you the same guy pumping that ($6,000!) TRL Dude preamp in several threads for a long time? The last time I checked, here is what they had to say about measurements : Tube Research Labs typically does not publish traditional measurements on its equipment's performance. These measurements illustrate how machines hear, not how humans hear. We probably are years away from having measurements which we can really associate to or correlate with the listenability of a device.
Do you have different sets of rules for different companies or components or can we assume you didn't actually pay any money for the preamp with no measurements? :scratch:
Maybe the fact that I don't own it anymore should tell you something. :oops:
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If the east winds ever blow you over to Lincoln City, perhaps you can audition some speakers, especially Philharmonic Audio Phil 2's....see how you like the RAALs. :thumb:
Another Lincoln City audiophile? This town clearly has no standards.
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Maybe the fact that I don't own it anymore should tell you something. :oops:
So you loved it and posted hundreds of gushing comments about how it's the best preamp ever...but you had to sell it because they didn't post measurements? thanks for clearing that up for me. :thumb:
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So you loved it and posted hundreds of gushing comments about how it's the best preamp ever...but you had to sell it because they didn't post measurements? thanks for clearing that up for me. :thumb:
If that's what you want to think, sure. Anything for you though. :thumb:
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If anyone wants to upgrade the looks of Franks gear, I'd bet Jim Salk would be happy to dress it up.
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This thread was more interesting when the discussion was focused on the Exotica 3's :thumb:
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This thread was more interesting when the discussion was focused on the Exotica 3's :thumb:
Agreed. I think the discussion of the aesthetics of the AVA gear should be moved to its own thread in their forum.
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Another Lincoln City audiophile? This town clearly has no standards.
Nope. None. In fact there are at least THREE of us knuckleheads here. Doesn't that violate some statistical norm or somethin'?
Where were you during our big GTG's? We needed another strong back to help push Jim Salk's trailer up the hill and pull his amps out of the gravel. :lol:
Hey, what does a mal wear? Malware of course.
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threads like this always make me wonder why there is always someone who needs to "redirect" the thread in their own non-linear direction rather than discusss the matter at hand. The cosmetics of the AVA gear has nothing to do with how the Exotics sounded. The quality of the design, however, either contributes or detracts. The AVA seems to contribute.
Hibuck...
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Nope. None. In fact there are at least THREE of us knuckleheads here. Doesn't that violate some statistical norm or somethin'?
Where were you during our big GTG's? We needed another strong back to help push Jim Salk's trailer up the hill and pull his amps out of the gravel. :lol:
I think must have I moved here after you guys got sick of each other. If you do another one, though, I'll be happy to show up and make excuses for why I'm too lazy to help.
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If anyone wants to upgrade the looks of Franks gear, I'd bet Jim Salk would be happy to dress it up.
Great idea. Like the Dodd face plates. Does Anyone have better photos of the sides and back of the Exoticas?
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Jesus Frank, that was blown out of proportion wasn't it? Just make some nice faceplates, everyone wants them. What is so hard about that? We all want nice looking stuff. Your Fetvalves are not cheap, they just look cheap. Hence, no fanfare. Quote
I couldn't disagree more. I'm also loving the looks of the Exotica 3, it's on my bucket list.
Franks stuff substandard?
My local electronics guru - that Richard Gray - looked under the hood of my 600r and thought it had some of the most robust circuitry
especially the MOSFETS
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Great idea. Like the Dodd face plates. Does Anyone have better photos of the sides and back of the Exoticas?
I have some at home on my camera stick.
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The cabinets...
Below are some pictures of the first pair of Exotica 3 cabinets. Some background...
When we began work on the cabinets, we wanted to do something a little different. We decided to use side panels with this design. That offered a number of benefits.
First, we could build the basic cabinet with 3/4" walls to keep the weight down. When we then put 1" panels on the sides, the area around the woofer section would have side walls that were 1 3/4" thick to minimize cabinet resonance.
Our idea was to be able to build a basic satin black center cabinet (we could build these ahead of time) and have any type of veneer on the side panels. So production time could be cut since we could have the actual cabinets built ahead of time. We could still customize the center cabinet as well if a customer wanted to wait longer for a custom finish on these.
The resulting design allows for what could be some very interesting combinations - various veneer combinations, veneer/automotive paint combinations, etc.
We wanted to chamfer the edge of the side panels. In the first drawings, we simply angled the side panels straight back. It would have been easy to veneer the edges on these. But later, we decided to curve the side panels. This made veneering much more complicated and our first test with this pair of cabinets did not work. Since time was running out coming up to AXPONA, we simply painted the edges of these side panels. Since then, we think we figured out how to veneer these curved, chamfered edges. So that should not be an issue going forward.
Since we were adding the side panels, we had to figure out what to do for the spikes. Mounting them in a normal fashion would result in spikes being very close to the edges of the main cabinet. In this pair, we actually wrapped the side panels partially under the bottom of the speaker so that we had a solid section to attach the spikes to. So the side panels also serve as a plinth for the speaker itself. As we take a second look at the entire design, this may change.
When we began work on these cabinets, I had just purchased a batch of some really interesting imbuya burl veneer (which I can't really capture in a photo here). Since it was a dark color to begin with, we decided to use some automotive paint for the center cabinet. We chose a gold color that picked up some of the highlights in the imbuya burl. The combination worked out quite well.
Since this was the first pair of actual cabinets, there will probably be a few changes. But here are some pictures of the Exoticas we displayed at AXPONA last weekend...
(http://salksound.com/gallery/exotica3/e3-gold-imbuyaburl.jpg)
And a side shot...
(http://salksound.com/gallery/exotica3/e3-gold-imbuyaburl-side.jpg)
- Jim
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What are the general dimensions?
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Look very nice, Jim. I think with this new baby and the SS8, look like the SS10 and SS12 become less demanding. But I am sure the new Exotica is gonna make it up for the lost.
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What are the general dimensions?
They are 11" wide at the top and 13" wide at the bottom. They are 16" deep and 42" tall.
- Jim
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But heavier than an 8!
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Jim,
For what it's worth, I find those curved, chamfered side panels weird looking.
But then again, I won't be buying a pair anytime soon and I know you'd build a pair without that styling too.
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How would you think this veneer for the sides:
http://www.certainlywood.com/detail.cfm?ID=10565
or maybe this:
http://www.certainlywood.com/detail.cfm?ID=6212
Matched with a automotive PPG color shifting pearl paint!
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Jim,
For what it's worth, I find those curved, chamfered side panels weird looking.
I am encouraged to see a new design that isn't just another strait box.
The match of the gold paint to the veneer looks fantastic, but I agree all of the sharp edges and especially the gap between the front baffle and bottom front of the side panel doesn't flow very well.
I am seriously considering these, although waiting to see future refinements. It doesn't sound like Jim really had time to perfect the cabinet design so I am hoping the final version has a more organic transition.
At least its not a painful wait - my SongTowers are still keeping me very happy.
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Jim,
For what it's worth, I find those curved, chamfered side panels weird looking.
But then again, I won't be buying a pair anytime soon and I know you'd build a pair without that styling too.
Sure, we can modify the build to suit anyone's taste. No problem at all. We just thought we'd try something new. Now we'll refine it a bit.
- Jim
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How would you think this veneer for the sides:
http://www.certainlywood.com/detail.cfm?ID=10565
or maybe this:
http://www.certainlywood.com/detail.cfm?ID=6212
Matched with a automotive PPG color shifting pearl paint!
We have used both of those veneers before and they are both VERY nice. The white ebony is very unique. I had never seen any of that before it became available and we purchased some immediately. The ziricote is quite a bit darker when finished, but is also among my all-time favorites. Finding a nice pearl color to go with either of these would be quite easy as well.
- Jim
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Jim:
I have a question about applying a color tent to the veneer. I am not sure how to ask the question. I guess because I can not be specific about the color so how about just a general question. What generally happens to a veneer color, use "white ebony" because it a great example.
1.When you apply a dark shade? Does the white areas stay relatively light? Do they darken from their original color drastically? Can you maintain a clear contrast between the dark areas and light?
2, How about when you apply a lighter shade? Can you change the light color matrix to different lighter color ?
If this is too general or crazy question don't worry about it. What I am thinking is how to apply color to the veneer to improve the match with the auto paint?
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How would you think this veneer for the sides:
http://www.certainlywood.com/detail.cfm?ID=10565 (http://www.certainlywood.com/detail.cfm?ID=10565)
Wow! :o That is so cool! :thumb:
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Jim:
I have a question about applying a color tent to the veneer. I am not sure how to ask the question. I guess because I can not be specific about the color so how about just a general question. What generally happens to a veneer color, use "white ebony" because it a great example.
1.When you apply a dark shade? Does the white areas stay relatively light? Do they darken from their original color drastically? Can you maintain a clear contrast between the dark areas and light?
2, How about when you apply a lighter shade? Can you change the light color matrix to different lighter color ?
If this is too general or crazy question don't worry about it. What I am thinking is how to apply color to the veneer to improve the match with the auto paint?
There are ways to change the color of the light areas without making them darker. This generally involves bleaching the wood first to make the light areas as white as possible. That is what is typically done with automobile dashboards. Even though they may not want to change the color, they do this so that can dye an entire batch exactly the same and achieve consistent results. We have never used this technique.
Most often, applying any color will reduce the contrast and make the light areas darker. But the dyes we use (not stains) are aniline dyes which are basically transparent. So you can change the color quite dramatically and still maintain decent contrast. You have to be somewhat careful however. If you wanted light red for example, you would end up with pink. So you have to go far enough so that you end up with the color you want. This will reduce the contrast. So you have to decide how important the contrast is in relation to the color you would prefer. The darker the wood is to begin with, the more difficult it is to modify the color without things getting "muddy." That is why you see maple in all of its forms used for electric guitars. It is fairly close to white and takes dye very well. So you can make it virtually any color you want.
- Jim
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Wow! :o That is so cool! :thumb:
White ebony, when finished, is not exactly white. Here is a picture of how that veneer looks on a finished speaker with no color added:
(http://salksound.com/gallery/Veracity ST/V-ST-whiteebony.jpg)
- Jim
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Loving this thread (well the middle was a little bumpy) and there's so much interest in this model. I'm really looking forward to the hearing impressions from the folks who are ready to jump in, seeing it on the site and looking at the stats and the final result of the design.
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Jim, will you please stop mimicking my personal designs? :icon_lol:
Paul
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=98732)
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lol WOW!
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I am sure this new Exotica tower sound real nice but if I want to upgrade my speaker to this, I have to listen to it first. My SS8 is dang good and fit my taste nicely. I wish that this Exotica would deliver a bit more effortless due to its high sensitivity while retain all the SS8 quality.
Talking about the style. I like the look but if I order a pair them it would be no chamfer. More like those Audes speaker that I saw long time ago
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=98733)
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I think the gap at the bottom in front makes the speaker look unfinished. It contrasts the nice arch on the side too much. ... nice arch vs. squared off.
They did sound Very nice.
Gregg
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Jim, will you please stop mimicking my personal designs? :icon_lol:
Paul
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=98732)
I smell Royalty.
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Yes I would. On the flip side is this question. Would I spend $4500 on a FetValve without a good looking case? The answer is no. Many people would pony up for nicer casing. They do it all the time! Just look at the Salks in the same room. Salk wouldn't have made it a year with vinyl cabinets. Most of the posts in this circle show the veneers that people pick out. It's on equal footing with the sound. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.
+1
I found it humorous that "looks don't matter" was being mentioned in a forum dedicated to a brand of speakers that prides itself on first class looks. :)
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Austin08,
Jim was nice enough to play the SS8's late Friday at Axpona for my friends and I. He had them CRANKING! The sound, as you know was superb. BUT, the Exotica's were a step up in my book. Because of the built-in subs- the bass was soooo accurate and deep. The mid and highs were what sold it for me. A think the Exotica's just have better, more accurate and more pleasing drivers. Just my 2 cents worth.
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Austin08,
Jim was nice enough to play the SS8's late Friday at Axpona for my friends and I. He had them CRANKING! The sound, as you know was superb. BUT, the Exotica's were a step up in my book. Because of the built-in subs- the bass was soooo accurate and deep. The mid and highs were what sold it for me. A think the Exotica's just have better, more accurate and more pleasing drivers. Just my 2 cents worth.
Thanks for sharing your though. I think the SS8 will have to serve me one or two more year before I will do any upgrading. I hope that someone in Tri state area buy it so I can ask for an audition. :lol:
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Congratulations on apparently creating another winner. I guess I will have to limp along with my SoundScapes too. I played Willie’s Stardust and Hugh’s Stimela on 45 rpm vinyl today and both of them were so good it literally hurt. With my weak heart it is probably best that I don’t upgrade. :lol:
Bob
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Austin08,
Jim was nice enough to play the SS8's late Friday at Axpona for my friends and I. He had them CRANKING! The sound, as you know was superb. BUT, the Exotica's were a step up in my book. Because of the built-in subs- the bass was soooo accurate and deep. The mid and highs were what sold it for me. A think the Exotica's just have better, more accurate and more pleasing drivers. Just my 2 cents worth.
Jackmonster, can you elaborate some more? I would believe that active, servo controlled woofers have more control than the dual 8" + 12" PRs. Regarding the tweeter, did you feel that the E3 dome tweeter was more accurate than even the RAAL? I can't imagine anything being more accurate than the RAAL, in fact, I often think it's too accurate for the rest of my humble equipment and CD quality source material.
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I don't want to start World War 3 here. The bass in the Exotica is simply more accurate than the SS8's. The Raal tweeter is very , very good. It may well be more "accurate" than the soft dome in the Exotica. Maybe the soft dome in the Exotica is "colored". The things I value most in a speaker are clarity, dynamics(it must sound "alive") and a naturalness to the sound especially in the midrange and vocals.
Of course, the Exotica already has super clarity and is very dynamic. I think Jim made a great choice in the mid woofer and tweeter. The mid-range and vocals just sound more natural to me than the Raal tweeter. The Raal tweeter may very well have more clarity than the soft dome tweeter. But what gets you excited in this hobby is the emotion connectedness you have to the sound. Jim has an outstanding job of provided clarity, dynamics, great bass,(they rock!), and a naturalness to vocals and the midrange that is better than any speaker in he made before(IMHO)
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Maybe try a different amp that can keep up if you think SS8 bass isn't accurate.
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I'm curious of those who have heard these drivers in this speaker. Do they rock? or rather can they rock? I've always thought of Lowther/Fostex (I realize these aren't those, but they are like those) speakers as for those who like acoustic only music, ultimate detail but no real authority and oomph. Counter example is old skool JBL or Klipsch big monitors that can deliver slam but don't necessarily have the best refinement and intimacy. Of course my goal is the intersection of the two, but curious as to people's take. And for the record, my style of music and listening favors the authority over the last word in detail.
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Congrats on building another product that has people excited and congrats to AVA for providing the electronics to excite!!
I have a question about the active servo controlled woofers. Since they are powered by their own internal amp, do they have a volume control somewhere on the speaker much like a home theatre sub woofer? If that is the case, how do you get the volume setting on the active woofers to match the volume setting on the amp driving the mids and highs? What happens when you change the volume level on the amp driving the mids and highs? Do you have to adjust the volume on the active subs to match the change in the mid/hi amplification?
TV
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Congrats on building another product that has people excited and congrats to AVA for providing the electronics to excite!!
I have a question about the active servo controlled woofers. Since they are powered by their own internal amp, do they have a volume control somewhere on the speaker much like a home theatre sub woofer? If that is the case, how do you get the volume setting on the active woofers to match the volume setting on the amp driving the mids and highs? What happens when you change the volume level on the amp driving the mids and highs? Do you have to adjust the volume on the active subs to match the change in the mid/hi amplification?
TV
There is a picture on the back of this speaker on the other Discussion here (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=125495.0)
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Congrats on building another product that has people excited and congrats to AVA for providing the electronics to excite!!
I have a question about the active servo controlled woofers. Since they are powered by their own internal amp, do they have a volume control somewhere on the speaker much like a home theatre sub woofer? If that is the case, how do you get the volume setting on the active woofers to match the volume setting on the amp driving the mids and highs? What happens when you change the volume level on the amp driving the mids and highs? Do you have to adjust the volume on the active subs to match the change in the mid/hi amplification?
TV
Good question! We pick off a signal from the binding posts (thus from the outboard amp) and feed it directly to the plate amp circuit board. Then the gain, phase and crossover frequency are calibrated. Once this is done, the woofer section gain tracks the signal from your amp perfectly. No user adjustments are required (in fact, they are strongly discouraged).
- Jim
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Good question! We pick off a signal from the binding posts (thus from the outboard amp) and feed it directly to the plate amp circuit board. Then the gain, phase and crossover frequency are calibrated. Once this is done, the woofer section gain tracks the signal from your amp perfectly. No user adjustments are required (in fact, they are strongly discouraged).
- Jim
So all the control knobs on the plate amp were disengaged? If they are not then how do you prevent them of moving to different position during shipping?
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Congratulations on apparently creating another winner. I guess I will have to limp along with my SoundScapes too. I played Willie’s Stardust and Hugh’s Stimela on 45 rpm vinyl today and both of them were so good it literally hurt. With my weak heart it is probably best that I don’t upgrade. :lol:
Bob
I was just listening to Steve Ray Vaughan-Texas Flood and Holly Cole - Don't smoke in bed LP. The SS8 gave me a feeling like the band was in front of me. Can not imagine how much more real the Exotixa is. Wish I could audition them somewhere here in Tri state area.
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I was just listening to Steve Ray Vaughan-Texas Blood and Holly Cole - Don't smoke in bed LP. The SS8 gave me a feeling like the band was in front of me. Can not imagine how much more real the Exotixa is. Wish I could audition them somewhere here in Tri state area.
You probably would not notice a huge difference in that quality. More real is so subjective. Many people would dearly love to have speakers on par with your SS8s. Of course, if money is no object......
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So all the control knobs on the plate amp were disengaged? If they are not then how do you prevent them of moving to different position during shipping?
We are planning to have a "cap" that fits over all of the controls so that they won't be disturbed. This would allow someone to remove it if they wanted to change the settings. But, of course, it would be their responsibility to get them returned to the same position if they wanted to return to the "factory" setting. In other words, once they removed the cap in order to access the controls, they would be on their own.
At some point, we may go so far as to remove all the pots and switches entirely and simply hard-wire all the values in place. We'll see.
- Jim
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I'm curious of those who have heard these drivers in this speaker. Do they rock? or rather can they rock? I've always thought of Lowther/Fostex (I realize these aren't those, but they are like those) speakers as for those who like acoustic only music, ultimate detail but no real authority and oomph. Counter example is old skool JBL or Klipsch big monitors that can deliver slam but don't necessarily have the best refinement and intimacy. Of course my goal is the intersection of the two, but curious as to people's take. And for the record, my style of music and listening favors the authority over the last word in detail.
This is an interesting question and I don't really have a definitive answer. But when I think of this speaker, rock music does not come to mind. My gut feeling is that the SS8's are more suited to that type of music. Jazz, classical, female and male vocals and acoustic recordings would seem to benefit the most from the Exotic drivers. Of course, that is just my personal opinion. Other opinions may vary and there is certainly no reason you could not use the Exotic 3's to play rock. But it seems like a bit of overkill to me.
- Jim
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The reason I jumped for the Exotica Three speakers is that in my opinion, they play string sound, tone, harmonics, engagement simply better, much better, then any other speakers I have ever heard.
At last fall's RFAF I heard a Ray Kimber's string recording on his huge playback system in his first floor demo room. They did not handle the harmonic reality of the violin anywhere close to Jim's first Exotica bookshelf speakers.
That's all there is to it. End of the game at least for now.
Frank Van Alstine
Of course maybe the violins sounded so much better in Jim's display room because we were using AVA electronics and Ray Kimber wasn't. :)
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This is an interesting question and I don't really have a definitive answer. But when I think of this speaker, rock music does not come to mind. My gut feeling is that the SS8's are more suited to that type of music. Jazz, classical, female and male vocals and acoustic recordings would seem to benefit the most from the Exotic drivers. Of course, that is just my personal opinion. Other opinions may vary and there is certainly no reason you could not use the Exotic 3's to play rock. But it seems like a bit of overkill to me.
- Jim
Better Vocal and Acoustic than the SS8!!!!!! Jim, you make me wanting this speaker now.
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The reason I jumped for the Exotica Three speakers is that in my opinion, they play string sound, tone, harmonics, engagement simply better, much better, then any other speakers I have ever heard.
At last fall's RFAF I heard a Ray Kimber's string recording on his huge playback system in his first floor demo room. They did not handle the harmonic reality of the violin anywhere close to Jim's first Exotica bookshelf speakers.
That's all there is to it. End of the game at least for now.
Frank Van Alstine
Of course maybe the violins sounded so much better in Jim's display room because we were using AVA electronics and Ray Kimber wasn't. :)
That's interesting. I've always respected your ears, and you've heard the Exotica's and the RAAL-based speakers in stereo, and the Exotica's and 8's up against each other. I've only heard the (2-way) Exotica in mono. I can't say as I heard a comparative advantage on string tones--certainly not in the upper harmonics. Of course, my closest reference is my own violin playing, and that could explain a lot. I'll keep practicing, and maybe I'll hear it one of these days. What impressed me about the finished Exotica was the controlled roll-off horizontally. The dispersion isn't as wide as on the 3-way RAAL designs, but there are really no changes in the basic response other than an increasing loss of high frequencies further and further off axis. Anyhow, I'll be able to settle this for myself in July at the CAF.
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Better Vocal and Acoustic than the SS8!!!!!! Jim, you make me wanting this speaker now.
"I preferred the Soundscape 8 to the new Exotica 3, at least in terms of overall sonic presentation—especially in the mids and highs. The Exotica 3 dominated in low-end damping, finesse, and convincing reproduction of the electric bass in Zero 7’s “Summersault,” but I’d personally want to own the Soundscape 8 and save the $4k for other components."
- Spencer Holbert, TAS
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/axpona-2014-loudspeakers-and-electronics-under-15k/
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Good question! We pick off a signal from the binding posts (thus from the outboard amp) and feed it directly to the plate amp circuit board. Then the gain, phase and crossover frequency are calibrated. Once this is done, the woofer section gain tracks the signal from your amp perfectly. No user adjustments are required (in fact, they are strongly discouraged).
- Jim
Jim,
Thank you for the explanation. As for other comments on the pots being easily adjustable, perhaps it is best to hard wire the settings as you say. Your products have grown in popularity because of the sound quality produced and the amazing finishes you provide. Giving the end user the means to adjust the settings, even by having to remove a cover plate, could mean your products may not perform as you intended and prospective buyers may be turned off if auditioning an Exotica that has been messed around with.
Regards,
TV
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I have to chuckle at all the people squirming over buzz that got out on the new speaker.
I thought it would be easy to be content with a pair of SS8s
Sounds like you have another winner Jim
You are really adept at finding just the right niche speaker
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I have to chuckle at all the people squirming over buzz that got out on the new speaker.
I thought it would be easy to be content with a pair of SS8s
Sounds like you have another winner Jim
You are really adept at finding just the right niche speaker
Wish I could take credit here. This one found me. I just had to figure out how to deal with the woofer section.
- Jim
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Just weighed the existing Exotica 3 cabinets - 123 pounds each. We are contemplating design changes that will increase the weight. Guess these won't be shipping via FedEx.
- Jim
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Just weighed the existing Exotica 3 cabinets - 123 pounds each. We are contemplating design changes that will increase the weight. Guess these won't be shipping via FedEx.
- Jim
Well, how about a lower and an upper cabinet? Worked for the 10's and 12's with the umbilical connection. 8) :wink:
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Well, how about a lower and an upper cabinet? Worked for the 10's and 12's with the umbilical connection. 8) :wink:
+1. Modular is easier to ship and would also result in better sound, no?
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+1. Modular is easier to ship and would also result in better sound, no?
I don't see any sound improvement. The upper cabinet is isolated from the bass cabinet already (no openings between except wiring). So it is essentially like the bookshelf sitting on top of the bass cabinet. Jim, is this fully correct?
I would like the separate cabinets for the shipping and installing/moving reasons. I would be okay if the upper was locked into a preset position relative to the bass cab upon assembly. I always liked the idea of a moveable Wilson-like upper cabinet but then customers would start complaining or calling about how to align them. So just like the settings on the amp, it is probably best to remove any adjust-ability.
Of course this means more boxes and the shipping department (Mary) only has 2 arms!!
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I was more thinking about those old Ravel Salon ultima for the style. The Wilson adjustable modular is more work and would adding cost.
Another point is IMO, shipping carriers care for space more than they care weight. So a bit more money in shipping is expected.
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Wouldn't it be maximally efficient to just reuse the SS8 cabinet design with a few changes specific to the E3 drivers? (Not with respect to shipping, but in terms of actually producing the E3s).
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Wouldn't it be maximally efficient to just reuse the SS8 cabinet design with a few changes specific to the E3 drivers? (Not with respect to shipping, but in terms of actually producing the E3s).
The amps for the bass account for most of the added weight as far as I know.
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The amps for the bass account for most of the added weight as far as I know.
The SoundScape 8 spec page says they weigh 126 pounds each.
?
Steve
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The SoundScape 8 spec page says they weigh 126 pounds each.
?
Steve
Yes, the SS8's and the first build of the Exotica 3's were withing a few pounds of one another. Once we made our proposed changes to the Exotica 3 cabinets, they will weigh about 10 pounds more than the current build (estimated at about 135 pounds each) and will be very non-resonant.
- Jim
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Wouldn't it be maximally efficient to just reuse the SS8 cabinet design with a few changes specific to the E3 drivers? (Not with respect to shipping, but in terms of actually producing the E3s).
That is not a bad idea. But I would have to check to see if there would be enough volume in the woofer section.
- Jim
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I like the sound of modular design.
Maybe with the thought of selling each cabinet separately, allowing purchase of the mid and tweeter and woofer section independently?
I realize there would be problems to address such as; vented v. sealed and connections between cabinets.
Probably crazy idea.
Is there a market for the woofer section and could it be sold as a woofer section for use with other speakers?
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I like the sound of modular design.
Maybe with the thought of selling each cabinet separately, allowing purchase of the mid and tweeter and woofer section independently?
I realize there would be problems to address such as; vented v. sealed and connections between cabinets.
Probably crazy idea.
Is there a market for the woofer section and could it be sold as a woofer section for use with other speakers?
There is Exotica monitor and Salk Rythmik if someone want to save few bucks. I think Jim could find tune them to match the monitor and sub. This combo will not be as good as the tower version but will be a pretty good set up, IMHO.
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Would there be a possible to have a reduction in price by deleting the side panels? They're obviously very good looking and it's clear there's quite a bit that goes into making them. Some sort of Exotica basic model with simple finishes?
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Would there be a possible to have a reduction in price by deleting the side panels? They're obviously very good looking and it's clear there's quite a bit that goes into making them. Some sort of Exotica basic model with simple finishes?
That might be possible, although the main reason for them is to simplify and build of the internal cabinets and thicken the walls in the woofer section (to make the cabinet more inert).
We could possibly build cabinets like the SS8's, but it wouldn't lower the costs all that much. The drivers are more expensive as is the powered woofer section.
- Jim
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That might be possible, although the main reason for them is to simplify and build of the internal cabinets and thicken the walls in the woofer section (to make the cabinet more inert).
We could possibly build cabinets like the SS8's, but it wouldn't lower the costs all that much. The drivers are more expensive as is the powered woofer section.
- Jim
Another vote for making them more "SS8" like, regardless of what the cost turns out to be... I just prefer box speakers and your veneer selections are awesome on those styles
~jd
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I know i wont be able to afford the exoctica3, but i would give my IMO,
How about switching the tweeter and mid, so that the tweeter would be at the bottom, this way, the tower can be made a little higher. The gold one at axpona give me an impression of shortness specially when the bottom side are wider. To me, towers that stand tall are very nice looking. As far as stiffening the cabinets with simplify cabinet works, how about some birch ply. I think they are a little more expensive then mdf, but could be jutified in the exoctica.
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If you come up with an SS8 design, I think you get my order. I think that the thickness doesn't bother me. It's the side panels... Don't love the look.
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I already sit slightly above the tweeter in my SS8s, so it doesn't make sense for me to go shorter. I would want an SS8-like cabinet for the E3s.
The SS8 has a nice looking cabinet, IMO. If you could get multiple speakers re-using that same body, a less-skilled employee could produce the same cabinet all day long. That would be very efficient.
I'm curious about the WMT vs WTM design. Maybe Dennis could chime in a bit about this?
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If you come up with an SS8 design, I think you get my order. I think that the thickness doesn't bother me. It's the side panels... Don't love the look.
Well, there is absolutely nothing preventing us from producing a pair with SS8-type cabinets. They would work just fine and we could do that now.
In fact, that seems to be the consensus as to what people would prefer. In that case, it is probably the direction we will go on these.
The only other thought expressed in this thread was to separate the tweeter/midrange and woofer sections. We can certainly do that on a custom basis as well. But that means four cabinets vs. two, so the cost would be slightly higher.
- Jim
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I'm curious about the WMT vs WTM design. Maybe Dennis could chime in a bit about this?
I would have to do some math to see if that would work. The spacing between the midrange and the woofers is critical and is based on the crossover frequency. With the midrange on top, the woofers may have to be moved up creating more of a floor bounce issue. I would have to model it to see if this is a viable option.
That said, there is nothing preventing us from increasing the height of a cabinet like the SS8 cabinet so that a top mounted tweeter could be higher with respect to ear level. That is not an issue and may even be a benefit in terms of providing additional woofer section volume.
- Jim
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Can you rework my cabinets, seal the woofer section, plug the passives, fit the tweeter and midrange?
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I would have to do some math to see if that would work. The spacing between the midrange and the woofers is critical and is based on the crossover frequency. With the midrange on top, the woofers may have to be moved up creating more of a floor bounce issue. I would have to model it to see if this is a viable option.
That said, there is nothing preventing us from increasing the height of a cabinet like the SS8 cabinet so that a top mounted tweeter could be higher with respect to ear level. That is not an issue and may even be a benefit in terms of providing additional woofer section volume.
- Jim
Jim is absolutely correct about the midrange-woofer distance issue. I'm not sure where the crossover is set now (it's not part of the passive network, which only applies to the mid-tweet cross). The lower the cross, the less of an issue it is. But if the distance is too wide, it's very difficult to get the woofer-mid phase relationships correct over a range of listening distances. The phase can flip on you, causing a disjointed presentation that just doesn't sound right. On the other hand, it's not a good idea to end up with a listening position that is much above the tweeter. That causes the mid and tweet to go our of phase with each other, causing a hole at the crossover frequency. Jim is also correct about the floor bounce issue. He sent me a frequency response plot that showed virtually no floor bounce cancellation with the current woofer location. Putting all this together, the best solution is to move the mid-tweet assembly up a little, but not so much that there is an issue with the woofer-mid spread.
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Can you rework my cabinets, seal the woofer section, plug the passives, fit the tweeter and midrange?
I don't know if the midrange/tweeter section of the cabinet is tall enough to accommodate an 8" midrange. And I'm not sure if there would be enough volume in the woofer section. So it may not be possible.
But that is a moot point. It would probably be more work to do this than simply build a new cabinet.
- Jim
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I saw this photo here on AC and copied it to compare:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99454)
1. So are the EX-3's going to match SS8 in height? or 1 or 2 inch higher?
2. The EX-3's look to be 2" greater in width?
3. Change the EX-3's to SS8 plinths? Looks like the plinth change would add an inch to height?
This looks like a winner to me.
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Can you rework my cabinets, seal the woofer section, plug the passives, fit the tweeter and midrange?
This would probably be more expensive than selling the SS8s, taking a loss, and buying new E3s?
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This would probably be more expensive than selling the SS8s, taking a loss, and buying new E3s?
I don't know. But it is a moot point anyway. I just measured the height of the midrange/tweeter section in the SS8's and it is about 6" shorter than it needs to be to accommodate the E3 drivers. So it wouldn't work anyway.
- Jim
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Ive been thinking about the cabinet.
I think I would like a modular arrangement best. Not sure how to implement the wires between the cabinet and if the tweeter -mid range cabinet sits on top you would need a suitable material to protect surfaces. Being able to better handle the weight by distributing between two cabinets is an attractive option. Also maybe some advantage to placement. Different wall thicknesses of the cabinet could be an advantage.
The single box would be less expensive and most will opt for this design.
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What would be the dimensions of a box speaker version?
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A modular design would be easier to transport (lighter individual boxes) but would be more costly to produce and would require you to ship more boxes. As far as what to put between the monitor cabs and woofers, I have a modular system and use those half moon sorbothane balls. They dampen energy from the woofer cabinets and protect the finish. They are also inexpensive and unobtrusive. I've tried several things in the past including sheets if sorbothane and spikes. Sorbothane half balls (round side up, flat side down) work very well.
Jim is a master craftsman and I'm certain a modular version of this speaker would look as stunning as any of Jim's creations. I'm curious as to how it would affect the price.
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A modular design would be easier to transport (lighter individual boxes) but would be more costly to produce and would require you to ship more boxes. As far as what to put between the monitor cabs and woofers, I have a modular system and use those half moon sorbothane balls. They dampen energy from the woofer cabinets and protect the finish. They are also inexpensive and unobtrusive. I've tried several things in the past including sheets if sorbothane and spikes. Sorbothane half balls (round side up, flat side down) work very well.
Jim is a master craftsman and I'm certain a modular version of this speaker would look as stunning as any of Jim's creations. I'm curious as to how it would affect the price.
Just a note of caution to NOT use Sorbothane directly on finished wood surfaces. Over time it will leave a mark. The bottom of my (Salk) center speaker has permanent damage from using pieces of a sorbothane sheet underneath.
Some barrier between the sorbothane and wood veneer finish will prevent the problem (plastic wrap, foam, thick paper etc). Some sorbothane products may be treated and work without causing damage, but definitely not all.
Tom
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I find the that the use of Herbie's products is the way to go for most isolation related ills :shh:
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Chatter on this project has died down a bit. Are there any updates? I'm a couple of upgrades away, but still very curious as to how this model turns out. I find it very interesting to witness this process and everyone's thoughts on the design, not to mention the designer open to feedback. I'm really looking forward to the outcome!
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Chatter on this project has died down a bit. Are there any updates? I'm a couple of upgrades away, but still very curious as to how this model turns out. I find it very interesting to witness this process and everyone's thoughts on the design, not to mention the designer open to feedback. I'm really looking forward to the outcome!
We are working on a cabinet design for Big Red Machine at present. He wanted separate upper and lower cabinets. So that is likely the next pair you will see. But we have to build it first.
- Jim
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Jim, We have some friends that live in your neck of the woods and are trying to plan a visit. Do you have a demo room at the shop? I'd like to demo the E3's along with the SS8's. If you do have such a room at the factory, when do you think you would have the E3's ready to hear? :D
~jd
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Jim, We have some friends that live in your neck of the woods and are trying to plan a visit. Do you have a demo room at the shop? I'd like to demo the E3's along with the SS8's. If you do have such a room at the factory, when do you think you would have the E3's ready to hear? :D
~jd
JD -
Our shop is not necessarily the best listening environment in the world, but people do come to listen all the time. We have SS8's and the prototype E3's available for listening any time. Just let us know when you would like to stop by and we'll set things up for you and your friends.
- Jim
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Hi Jim,
I remember you told me about 2 different projects like the Exotica 3 (powered woofer) : 1 which would be quite expensive (I guess it's the Exotica 3) and 1 which would be less expensive. Is this second "less expensive" project also being developped at the moment ? I'm still very happy with my Veracity STs and don't intend to change them soon but I was just curious.
Also, even though it seems like a lost cause, I think the Exotica 3s look just nice the way they are (even though I would also vouch for an SS8-like plinth to make them a bit taller). The colour bothers me more than the looks. I love my Curly Cherry. :D
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JD -
Our shop is not necessarily the best listening environment in the world, but people do come to listen all the time.
- Jim
In a way your large open space allows for an accurate presentation of what the speakers are capable of. Of course room sizes differ, but I'd wager more often than not your speakers end up in smaller rooms than your demo area. Large spaces have less low end problems. You also have less comb-filtering effects from nearby walls.
I heard the SS8's in your shop and they blew me away. Initially I was disappointed when I first set them up in my room; I had a 15db drop out in the mids. I had to work at placement a bit and rearrange my acoustic treatments to get that same feeling I had at your place in my room.
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JD -
Our shop is not necessarily the best listening environment in the world, but people do come to listen all the time. We have SS8's and the prototype E3's available for listening any time. Just let us know when you would like to stop by and we'll set things up for you and your friends.
- Jim
Okay, great! It most likely would be just me visiting... I'll try to set up something this summer and email the shop.
One thing though... is the shop open just weekdays, or is Saturday an option?
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JDoyle,
If you want to hear soundscape 8's set up in a home, I'm in Kalamazoo Michigan. If your travels take you this way, feel free to drop me a PM. I live about 5 minutes off of I-94.
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JDoyle,
If you want to hear soundscape 8's set up in a home, I'm in Kalamazoo Michigan. If your travels take you this way, feel free to drop me a PM. I live about 5 minutes off of I-94.
Thanks, that's a very generous (and tempting) offer! Our friends are in Shelby Twp, which is only about a half hour away from the Salk Factory. I just looked up your town and it may be a bit too far, but I will think about it and PM you if interested.
Thanks again. :thumb:
~jd
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I think I have made the decision to jump on the Exotica bandwagon (with an SS8 style cabinet design, subject to Jim working all of that out and me convincing the wife). To that ends, I have discovered how much audio stuff I have accumulated that I don't really use or will not mind shedding for this endevour. I live in a Brooklyn apartment, but I still will have these "few" things to sell (not becuase I need the money, but more because I have to convince my wife I am not insane). So likely to go on the block to convince my wife not to kill me are my HT2-TLs, a Meitner MA-1 DAC (replaced with a Chord Hugo), a Van Alstine Transcendance 8 with phono (early version with small chassis), a Van Alstine Ultimate 70 (if I get other tubes), a Red Wine Audio Isabellina DAC LFP-V (no USB, but BNC and battery connection to power an iPure Doc), a Red Wine Audio Signature 30.2 LFP-V (only after I get my battery powered EL84 Dodd amp back from Gary), a Tivo Series 3 with lifetime service, a Dynavector phono pre, and an Eastern Electric Mini-Max Dac. Also will eventually be selling my AVA Insight 240/3 that I use for center/rear duty. I figure I should likelt go tubes on the front end of Exoticas, but not necessarily the Ultimate 70. Will have to see. Where did I get all this stuff? Sigh.
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Hi,
This hobby certainly is a disease. I have some gear stored in my attic that I should sell someday.
Cheers Rod
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I wanted to ignore these speakers given the relative young age of my Ss8's, but it is tough. I see real opportunity here. I really like the custom side panel design, with a more standard basic box. Can one assume that you would build the core boxes in mass, that tolerances should be tighter. I daydream and wonder if there is a possible application of more exotic materials to these cabinets to boost stiffness. We ever going to see a Exotica carbon edition ?
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I'm curious of those who have heard these drivers in this speaker. Do they rock? or rather can they rock? I've always thought of Lowther/Fostex (I realize these aren't those, but they are like those) speakers as for those who like acoustic only music, ultimate detail but no real authority and oomph. Counter example is old skool JBL or Klipsch big monitors that can deliver slam but don't necessarily have the best refinement and intimacy. Of course my goal is the intersection of the two, but curious as to people's take. And for the record, my style of music and listening favors the authority over the last word in detail.
So I am an absolute Rock and Blues guy. I listen to other genre's, but 85% of my listening is Rock and Blues. I've actually been pretty fond of Klipsch over the years, warts included. I like to sit in the front 5 rows, I like a snare drum to pop, and a kick drum to hit. I want to hear a guitar whine and distort. I want dynamics.
The truth is Klipsch does it and does it really well. I think the RF7II by Klipsch is an awfully fun speaker, and the old school Forte II and KLF series still hold a place in my heart. Bad cabinets and all with the KLF series. I've gone as far as asking Jim about possibly building proper cabinets for the KLF series and buying some old ones, tearing them down and putting the drivers in a good cabinet (it's not real cost effecient)
I even bought the Palladium Series P37's over a year ago thinking they would do away with the klipsch negatives (they do not sound honky at all) but... and here is the but - past 90db's they bring cymbals too forward and can get fatiguing. They image between the speakers quite well, but aren't great from a depth perspective. I was actually torn on selling them, but then I got lucky and sold them at very little loss (I had gotten a killer deal to start with) and then BRM was selling his SS8's locally, so I was able to upgrade.
Which brings me to Salk Speakers. The Soundscape 8's can absolutely rock. They are 95% as dynamic as the klipsch and sound 95% as "Big", particularly when you leave the open baffle on the midrange. They are a lot more accurate and sound even better on drums and guitars with the added bonus of doing a hell of a job on vocals. I'm very, very happy with them thus far. They play lower than klipsch, though I will tell you they don't quite have that midbass bump you might like. (subs can take care of that when you want to have some fun).
They also don't get nearly as bright when turned up. instruments don't come "forward" (on the palladiums when turned up it was like the cymbals in particular were brought way forward).
I really feel that thus far they are a heck of a speaker for rock and blues music as well as home theater.
On a budget, I still think it's hard to beat a pair of old Forte II's and a nice tube amp for sub 1500 bucks these days, but if you want Rock dynamics and punch with a ton of accuracy and a lot less fatiguing speaker the SS8's are really nice thus far.
I believe that Selah? audio has built a bit of a knock-off in the Ottavo speaker I saw on a website the other day. I'd be interested to hear it also just for kicks. It was a ported design. I wonder if it would be a bit more punchy in the midbass but not play as deep. Not sure I should call it a knock off, but same midrange and tweeter it appears with dual 8's in the lower cabinet. Ported though. Thought it looked interesting.
But IMO for rock, I think you would be happy with the SS8's and take that extra money and get a couple of external subwoofers for when you want to really cut loose.
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Hi,
Living in Australia I have almost zero chance at this stage to listen to the new Exocita speakers Jim has built. I guess the advantage that the Exocita's have over the HT3's, SS 10's and SS12's are that they are so much more efficient. Imagine pairing an Audio by Van Alstine Ultravalve with the Exotica's and the music would just flow. My amps cost about $9000US and are rated at 300 watts per channel. Paying for high quality watts cost a lot of money.
Anyway all of Jim's speakers have a special sound :).
Cheers Rod
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I guess I will find out what an AVA Ultimate 70 will sound like with the Exotica 3's. That said, I have a few other amps I may want to go for in time.
So, Salk things I will sell when the Exotica's are ready (located in Brooklyn):
Salk Rythmik 12" Subwoofer in curly cherry. Probably 110 lbs. (Will want $1100 for this).
Salk HT2-TLs RAAL version, 1" cabinet, maple dyed a rich reddish. (Will want approximately $3485).
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Jim
Any new news on the Exotica 3 and different cabinet?
How about Big Red Machines separate cabinets and design?
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Jim
Any new news on the Exotica 3 and different cabinet?
+1 on a slimmer cab design.
Also, Jim can you confirm you + E3 will be at CAF?
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Also, Jim can you confirm you + E3 will be at CAF?
Yes. We will have the same prototype pair we had at AXPONA. I don't think there is enough time left to complete a new production cabinet without jamming up the works at the shop. But the sound will be the same regardless.
- Jim
Note: This is the Capitol Audio Fest, not the California Audio Show (CAS) which we will not be attending this year due to a scheduling conflict.
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Not sure my cabinet will be slimmer, but I ordered without side panels. More like the SS8 cabinet.
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Not sure my cabinet will be slimmer, but I ordered without side panels. More like the SS8 cabinet.
Got it.
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I am 2 weeks into waiting for the Exotica 3s. Waiting is hard, but we have a new way to pass the time. Here is the real baby before I get the speakers...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102015)
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Absolutely beautiful! Congrats!
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Thanks.
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Very cute! Congratulations!!
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Yes, and gravity defying as well!
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Yes, and gravity defying as well!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Anyone Have any updates?
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Anyone Have any updates?
Not sure what the others are doing who are ordering. Mine are top secret (mostly because what I want may not be possible). :oops:
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Haven't heard much from Jim beyond our initial discussions and my order. No movement on my production tracker either. I am not in a huge hurry to get the speakers, so it isn't a huge deal to not hear anything. That said, I am totally interested in what BRM is planning. I am sure that once I find out what he has had done I will wish I waited, but such is life, right? In the mean time, I am lining up some custom built tube mono-blocks to mate with them, and cleaning out a bunch of other stuff from my audio stash to make room for the new one. Yes, 2 kids and 2 adults in 1450 sq. ft. is tight, but this is NYC, so it is actually palatial.
Shawn
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Jim informs me that they will be 42” tall, 10.5” wide and 16” deep using 1" MDF.
Shawn
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I'm really excited for you both! I can't wait to see what happens.
Top secret eh? I can only wonder! :banana piano: :banana piano:
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FYI: Cap upgrades on the Exotica 3s for Mundruf Silver in Oil = $2500.
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FYI: Cap upgrades on the Exotica 3s for Mundruf Silver in Oil = $2500.
So you're not doing it, right?
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Correct. Not worth it... Though it was only six caps total. I have questions on changing cap values, but that is because I assume that a 47uf cap can replace a 50uf cap as well (assuming voltage is the same). Why have cap values changed over the years? So weird.
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FYI: Cap upgrades on the Exotica 3s for Mundruf Silver in Oil = $2500.
There's only one set of caps for the tweeter, right? You could go Mundorf Supreme or SonicCaps to get the cost down.
I upgraded Mundorf SIO in the tweeter and Mundorf Supreme in the mid of my SS8s, but I highly doubt it made a difference in the end.
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According to Jim there are three values total to replace. 13, 15 and 30uf. So you have to run some in parallel to get where you need to be... None are really cheap to get to and I wouldn't want to mix cap brands. I had a bad experience with that once (longer story than I care to tell).
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According to Jim there are three values total to replace. 13, 15 and 30uf. So you have to run some in parallel to get where you need to be... None are really cheap to get to and I wouldn't want to mix cap brands. I had a bad experience with that once (longer story than I care to tell).
You can do different caps in each of the crossover sections without a problem. For the speakers with the passive crossovers, many people upgrade just the tweeter caps, some do the mids as well. The Solens are more than adequate in the bass section so lots of people leave that untouched. YMMV.
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I weighed 3 parameters in deciding to remain with the brand Jim offers: what I heard with his "stock" parts is fantastic, the cost of upgrading as I and others have discovered is ridiculously expensive, the Solens(?) Jim uses are still a very above-average component.
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I weighed 3 parameters in deciding to remain with the brand Jim offers: what I heard with his "stock" parts is fantastic, the cost of upgrading as I and others have discovered is ridiculously expensive, the Solens(?) Jim uses are still a very above-average component.
Completely agree. I've seen crossovers from other more expensive speakers that don't use such high quality components.
I did some checking, and Sonic Cap G1s are available in all those values and aren't too expensive.
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If there is a difference in the sound of caps (and I'm not saying there is), the difference (notice I didn't say "improvement") will be most audible in the tweeter section. And that's the cheapest circuit to upgrade. So if you'll lose even 10 minutes of sleep wondering whether you should have spent more on caps, put the next line up in the tweeter section. I've done that several times for my customers.
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I am fine with the Solens if I am not going way up the chain. I just thought people should know as Jim's webpage also sets forth cap upgrades as a possibility. I plan for this to be my speaker for a long long time. So, I ordered them and thought in the middle that I should look into a cap upgrade. The cost turned out to be much higher than I thought. I passed that on as well. No need to discuss this a ton.
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I did choose my paint color Saturday. I'm going to hand it off to Jim this weekend. :)
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I did choose my paint color Saturday. I'm going to hand it off to Jim this weekend. :)
Who will ignore it, because he's going to be playing speakers with me at the Capital Audio Fest. We'll see if his fancy shmancy Exoticas can stand up to the heat of my $165 monitors.
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My 3 week old will preclude me from attending... Sigh.
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My 3 week old will preclude me from attending... Sigh.
3-week-old speakers? I fully understand.
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Who will ignore it, because he's going to be playing speakers with me at the Capital Audio Fest. We'll see if his fancy shmancy Exoticas can stand up to the heat of my $165 monitors.
It just shows the amazing courage that Jim has! :wink:
Bob