2a3 has expression, EL84 has punch and drive..Is there a happy medium?

schw06 · « **on:** 12 Dec 2009, 11:59 am »

I could use some direction...I am trying to duplicate the emotional expression of 2a3 amps and the punch/drive of EL84 amps. Does this even exist?? They don't have to be perfect with either but they must do both things well. Is there a tube amp that does that?? A SET amp is fine because I don't need much power on Zu's but recommendations on which amps/tubes to audition would be appreciated. Thank you!

Niteshade · « **Reply #1 on:** 12 Dec 2009, 01:00 pm »

Hello-

There is a happy medium, but I do not think a single ended configuration is it. Dynamics and punch require supportive power. Two recommended configurations would be a single ended parallel (SEP) EL84 or a self-splitting, push-pull EL84 power amplifier. Both are unique and can provide the exact qualities you're looking for. A SEP EL84 can provide 10+ watts/channel while a self-splitting amp will provide 15 watts/channel. The EL84 is a good choice for what you are after. 2A3's are too expensive. I don't like the cost/benefit ratio at all. The same goes for 300B's.

A nifty fact about SEP's: If more power is required, more power tubes can be paralleled! A SEP using four EL84's per side would produce 20+ watts per channel.

richidoo · « **Reply #2 on:** 12 Dec 2009, 03:17 pm »

Manley Neo Classic 300B SEPP. 24W class A SEPP. A great amp, especially with Shuguang Black Treasure 300Bs. These are very punchy and satisfying rich sound, from low bass to high treble. You have an easy load and high sensitivity, perfect for these amps. They sell for about 3500 used. They will make good tubes really shine so don't skimp on the tubes. It has adjustable taps, feedback, switchable SE or PP mode, allows fine tuning the amp to the speaker. Plenty of balls down to 6ohm@ 90dB sens.

Another idea for a budget diy amp is SimpleSE. With Gold Lion or Black Treasure KT88 it should be nice firm bass, and still class A triode beauty. I have not heard this one, but several friends have it and there is a building thread on AC and elsewhere.

S Clark · « **Reply #3 on:** 12 Dec 2009, 03:21 pm »

I would audition Gary Dodd's new amp. It uses EL84's and is battery powered. I spoke with him last week and he has a couple that he will send out on trial, so you are only out shipping if you don't like it. Also, the price is cheap at under 1K.
http://doddaudio.com/battery_powered_amp.aspx

Scott

Pez · « **Reply #4 on:** 12 Dec 2009, 04:40 pm »

Quote from: richidoo on 12 Dec 2009, 03:17 pm

Another idea for a budget diy amp is SimpleSE. With Gold Lion or Black Treasure KT88 it should be nice firm bass, and still class A triode beauty. I have not heard this one, but several friends have it and there is a building thread on AC and elsewhere.

I built one and I will atest to the absolute stunning beauty of this amps potential sound quality. If you build it with high quality parts this amp is a giant killer for sure. 5 watts triode 15 watts pentode may not be much power but I will never go back to a push pull amp after owning it.

nullspace · « **Reply #5 on:** 12 Dec 2009, 05:00 pm »

Quote from: schw06 on 12 Dec 2009, 11:59 am

I could use some direction...I am trying to duplicate the emotional expression of 2a3 amps and the punch/drive of EL84 amps.

How about a 2A3 pushpull? These have gotten good reviews if you're into DIY. I've built a similar amp and can atest to the topology; I think that, generally, PP DHT amps will come very close to duplicating the emotional connectedness one often feels with SETs.

Regards,
John

JoshK · « **Reply #6 on:** 12 Dec 2009, 05:07 pm »

When you say an EL84 amp, do you mean a push pull EL84 amp? Is it pentode or triode? Can you DIY? If the EL84 is a push-pull pentode, which I would guess, then it would have punch and drive. Try triode strapping the EL84s and removing some of the feedback. This would likely sit between the original amp and the 2a3 SET and would give you a chance to hear it before you pursue other avenues. It might just be what you are after.

zybar · « **Reply #7 on:** 12 Dec 2009, 05:52 pm »

Quote from: schw06 on 12 Dec 2009, 11:59 am

I could use some direction...I am trying to duplicate the emotional expression of 2a3 amps and the punch/drive of EL84 amps. Does this even exist?? They don't have to be perfect with either but they must do both things well. Is there a tube amp that does that?? A SET amp is fine because I don't need much power on Zu's but recommendations on which amps/tubes to audition would be appreciated. Thank you!

Atma-Sphere OTL amps (something like the S-30 would be perfect for you) would be my first choice. I have owned flea size SET amps and big push-pull tube monsters and the Atma-Sphere amps can play in both worlds at a very high level. You don't get this for free though...the Atma-Sphere amps run in pure Class A and keep the electric company happy.

Another possible choice is something that uses the 6C33C tube, such as some nice tube mono blocs from Audio Mirror (http://www.audiomirror.com/images/vacuumtube6c33ca.html).

While these aren't as clean and detailed as the Atma-Sphere and have slightly less punch as well, they perform like a SET on steroids without losing their luscious midrange character.

The Manley mentioned above is also quite nice, but I prefer either of the two choices I listed over the Manley.

George

DaveC113 · « **Reply #8 on:** 12 Dec 2009, 06:15 pm »

Quote from: Pez on 12 Dec 2009, 04:40 pm

Quote from: richidoo on 12 Dec 2009, 03:17 pm

Another idea for a budget diy amp is SimpleSE. With Gold Lion or Black Treasure KT88 it should be nice firm bass, and still class A triode beauty. I have not heard this one, but several friends have it and there is a building thread on AC and elsewhere.

I built one and I will atest to the absolute stunning beauty of this amps potential sound quality. If you build it with high quality parts this amp is a giant killer for sure. 5 watts triode 15 watts pentode may not be much power but I will never go back to a push pull amp after owning it.

I built it with fairly high end parts, spent almost $1k and it's just a power amp. I wired in switches for UL operation and CFB, but triode mode w/o feedback is far better, IMO. I think you can get a better amp, but it will cost several times the price. I've thought of a monoblock Simple SE with 6 separate power supplies or a 3-stage 845 like on the tubelab website. Or maybe a huge OTL...

Pez · « **Reply #9 on:** 12 Dec 2009, 07:07 pm »

Yours is configured exactly like mine. I agree 100% triode w/ no feedback is the best sound you will get from this amp. I agree on your assessment of improvements sound wise. You would need an 845 based design or some other uber tube. Have you tried solid state rectification? I didn't install tht in my simple.

Jon L · « **Reply #10 on:** 12 Dec 2009, 07:16 pm »

Quote from: schw06 on 12 Dec 2009, 11:59 am

I am trying to duplicate the emotional expression of 2a3 amps and the punch/drive of EL84 amps.

How funny you mention this. Currently, I rotate between my 2A3 SET and EL84 single-ended pentode depending on mood. Takes me about 3 minutes to swap the amps out, which is do-able

I do admit SET 2A3 has a magic one can't even get from SET 300B. If that's required, I run 2A3 on top (>140Hz) and SS amp for bass, actively biamped. At such a low crossover point, coherence problem is very minimal and results wonderful...

BobRex · « **Reply #11 on:** 12 Dec 2009, 07:48 pm »

I concur with both Jon and George. A number of years ago I was able to audition both a 2A3 SET amp and the Amasphere M60s against a number of well known 300B amps. This was at a Philly Triode Show (as reported by the late Anna Logg in TAS). The 2A3 amp was a Cary, the 300Bs were from Komuro, JC Morrison, Herb Reichert, and Fi. Speakers were Classic Audio Reproduction T3s (might have been T1s - it's been a while.) Anyway... in that setting the only standout amps I heard that day were the 2A3s and the M60s. Each and every 300B amp sounded bloated, rolled off, and slow compared to these 2 amps. So I would say that if you want more punch than a 2A3 without losing the feeling, go with the Atmaspheres.

richidoo · « **Reply #12 on:** 12 Dec 2009, 08:02 pm »

The brand of 300B tube makes a big difference. My backup tubes Sophia and SED are not acceptable, but the Treasures are extended top and bottom, controlled and gorgeous... but expensive.

BobRex · « **Reply #13 on:** 12 Dec 2009, 08:59 pm »

From what I remember, at least one of the amps was running WEs. So, no, the "cheap" 300Bs weren't part of the equition. While I've never heard the treasures (and these may be the exception), every 300B amp I've heard since then has still sounded rolled off and um-colored (not colorful) compared to good 2A3s.

toobluvr · « **Reply #14 on:** 13 Dec 2009, 01:24 am »

Try an 845 SET Class A amp.

Very robust and sweet. On simpatico speakers it has the power and drive of push/pull, and the inner lit beauty and sonic glory that makes SET so mesmerizing.

At 22wpc the 845 tube is the most powerful true SET one can buy. It will drive speakers with authority that would exhaust other SET tubes.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1265207156&/Mastersound-Compact-845---SET-

Mastersound Compact 845

If I had the funds and the right speaker, this baby would be mine!

aa

Jon L · « **Reply #15 on:** 13 Dec 2009, 01:45 am »

Quote from: richidoo on 12 Dec 2009, 08:02 pm

The brand of 300B tube makes a big difference. My backup tubes Sophia and SED are not acceptable, but the Treasures are extended top and bottom, controlled and gorgeous... but expensive.

You're not kidding. However, I'll bet my AVVT AV32B (300B equiv.) tubes are at LEAST as extended and gorgeous as the Treasures, albeit at even higher prices these days. Actually, unobtainable at this point

doug s. · « **Reply #16 on:** 13 Dec 2009, 08:07 am »

i will second the recommendation of the audio mirror 6c33c amps. bargain for their performance, imo - 45wpc from a pair of 6c33c's run in single-ended triode in parallel, per channel.

also, if you can do w/5wpc, it's hard to beat an el84 run single-ended, imo. i have an almarro a205a mk11, run single-ended pentode, a custom home-brew el84 amp run single-ended triode, and a pair of el84 set amps pulled from a wintage akai m8 tape deck, and all are amazing w/efficient speakers. i also have a similarly amazing set custom made and designed amp using the 6v6 tube, which i understand is similar to the el84 tube. its flavor can be adjusted w/choice of 0, -2db or -4db negative feedback.

doug s.

anubisgrau · « **Reply #17 on:** 13 Dec 2009, 08:42 am »

Quote from: schw06 on 12 Dec 2009, 11:59 am

I could use some direction...I am trying to duplicate the emotional expression of 2a3 amps and the punch/drive of EL84 amps. Does this even exist?? They don't have to be perfect with either but they must do both things well. Is there a tube amp that does that?? A SET amp is fine because I don't need much power on Zu's but recommendations on which amps/tubes to audition would be appreciated. Thank you!

of course - just make sure that your power supply of 2A3 is top class and your SET is interstaged. it will have a drive of a runaway train if everything is done properly!

Niteshade · « **Reply #18 on:** 13 Dec 2009, 12:28 pm »

SEP with pentodes- it's the latest & greatest. High performance without the audiophile hiked up prices.

Another possibility: push-pull parallel 6SN7GTB's. Most think about 6SN7's in the driver stage, but GTA's & GTB's have enough plate dissipation to make themselves useful in the output stage as well. This would be a fascinating amp! A 6N7 rendition works very well too.

andrewbee · « **Reply #19 on:** 13 Dec 2009, 03:10 pm »

http://www.the-planet.org/Shishido.html