AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: oz_audio_todd on 6 Apr 2012, 11:50 am
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OK, after 3 hours of searching for it, I give up :x
I know that I have read something somewhere about how to fudge up a no-rez substitute using (may be) lino tiles, a heap of contact adhesive and acoustic foam or something like that??
I only ask as I am pretty sure that I have also read that its not worth the money to ship O/S as its kinda bulky!
Is my memory serving me here and/or are there other/better options available?
Thanks guys
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I had to skip norez on my recent LS-C build and did lino tiles and just fiberglass insulation. Cant detect any issues but norez is much easier to install.
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OK, after 3 hours of searching for it, I give up :x
I know that I have read something somewhere about how to fudge up a no-rez substitute using (may be) lino tiles, a heap of contact adhesive and acoustic foam or something like that??
I only ask as I am pretty sure that I have also read that its not worth the money to ship O/S as its kinda bulky!
Is my memory serving me here and/or are there other/better options available?
Thanks guys
Two layers of the 1/16" residential Vinyl tiles and then 1" of high density (2-3lb) open cell foam. All you need is the adhesive for the foam. Seems to work alright, but honestly it ends up costing near the same if you factor in your time...
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I have used both No Rez and the DIY method on different speaker projects and like the DIY cost savings. Once I got got rolling the extra time was minimal because I had to use small pieces anyway with all the internal bracing to navigate and the 6" diameter speaker cutout everything had to go through.
I used 2 layers of self stick vinyl floor tile from Home Depot, 1" open cell foam, and 2 cans of 3M Hi-Strength 90 spray adhesive. My first test with the floor tile was hit and miss, some tiles stuck and some pieces fell off the next day, the 3M adhesive worked like a champ and gets stronger with age. I used the 3M adhesive to attach the 1" foam too.
5 - 24" x 27" sheets of No Rez costs $199.75 + shipping.
5 - 20" x 30" sheets open cell foam, self stick vinyl tile, 3M adhesive cost $84
The cost difference between the No Rez and the DIY method was $115.75.
Wayne
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I have used both No Rez and the DIY method on different speaker projects and like the DIY cost savings. Once I got got rolling the extra time was minimal because I had to use small pieces anyway with all the internal bracing to navigate and the 6" diameter speaker cutout everything had to go through.
I used 2 layers of self stick vinyl floor tile from Home Depot, 1" open cell foam, and 2 cans of 3M Hi-Strength 90 spray adhesive. My first test with the floor tile was hit and miss, some tiles stuck and some pieces fell off the next day, the 3M adhesive worked like a champ and gets stronger with age. I used the 3M adhesive to attach the 1" foam too.
5 - 24" x 27" sheets of No Rez costs $199.75 + shipping.
5 - 20" x 30" sheets open cell foam, self stick vinyl tile, 3M adhesive cost $84
The cost difference between the No Rez and the DIY method was $115.75.
Wayne
Yeah, for tower speakers I can easily see that. For bookshelf speakers it is close enough that I would usually say just buy the No Rez....
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thanks for the reply's guys, but keep in mind I have to ship to Australia land and that will add to my(its) cost.
Does anybody know of anything better than straight vinyl then, or is it just fine? :)
Thanks again :)
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Vinyl tiles are best, and you can use heavy duty carpet padding for the foam and save a little more.
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this thread might be of some use. lots of good info in there
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=86324.0
when I built x-omni's as L/R surround speakers, I used the vinyl floor tile from home depot (cant find it on their website anymore) and mattress foam pad like this one (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Mainstays-Comfort-Coil-Foam-Mattress-Pad/10055840)
the foam in No-Rez is denser than the mattress pad, but I didnt care as they were for surround speakers. Next time, if I opt to not use no-rez, I'll use acoustic foam from PE (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=260-516) layered over vinyl tiles
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Vinyl tiles are best, and you can use heavy duty carpet padding for the foam and save a little more.
correct me if I'm wrong, but carpet padding isnt open cell, right? So wouldn't it cause reflections inside the cabinet?
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Actually, it is open cell.
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this thread might be of some use. lots of good info in there
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=86324.0
when I built x-omni's as L/R surround speakers, I used the vinyl floor tile from home depot (cant find it on their website anymore) and mattress foam pad like this one (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Mainstays-Comfort-Coil-Foam-Mattress-Pad/10055840)
the foam in No-Rez is denser than the mattress pad, but I didnt care as they were for surround speakers. Next time, if I opt to not use no-rez, I'll use acoustic foam from PE (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=260-516) layered over vinyl tiles
Why mess with PE, isn't this cheaper?
http://www.thefoamfactory.com/packagingfoam/charcoalfoam.html#FirmCharcoal
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While I'm never happy with the costs of No Rez, it's effectiveness is worth it in the end. It seems all other options make things more difficult than they need to be. Ultimately, I never miss the money I spent on upgrades that work. And No Rez works.
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I agree that it's worth the price, but not if you have to ship it half way around the world. The OP is down under.
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I recently finished a pair of X-LS speakers and used the tile/foam lining vs spending the money for No-Rez. By the time I was done cutting around the bracing used in this speaker and adhering the tile to the inside of the enclosure, I decided next time I'll use the No Rez.
These tiles were extremely heavy and dense, not the typical vinyl stick-on type... really did a number on the saw blade!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61461)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61462)
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I recently finished a pair of X-LS speakers and used the tile/foam lining vs spending the money for No-Rez. By the time I was done cutting around the bracing used in this speaker and adhering the tile to the inside of the enclosure, I decided next time I'll use the No Rez.
These tiles were extremely heavy and dense, not the typical vinyl stick-on type... really did a number on the saw blade!
... or you could have just used the stick-on vinyl.... :scratch:
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For my X-LS Encore build, I'm using the stick-on vinyl tile. However, I used a heat gun to soften the adhesive on the floor tile, just before adhering it to the surface to make sure that it sticks securely. Then I used a 1" foam that's stuck to the tiles via contact cement.
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These tiles were extremely heavy and dense, not the typical vinyl stick-on type... really did a number on the saw blade!
If going the DIY route these heavy tiles are the best. You can score them with a box cutting knife and fold them over and they will usually break nicely on the cut line.
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When using No Rez or an DIY substitute, do you have to allow for the
additional enclosure volume that it displaces?
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When using No Rez or an DIY substitute, do you have to allow for the
additional enclosure volume that it displaces?
With No Rez the damping layer does take up air space. However, the foam layer slows down the air flow in the box making the woofer act as if it is in a larger air space. Usually the net effect is about a wash.
That can vary some with DIY variations.
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So, is No-Rez basically a slab of open cell foam with some sort of adhesive & bitumen (?) layer on one of the sides of it?
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So, is No-Rez basically a slab of open cell foam with some sort of adhesive & bitumen (?) layer on one of the sides of it?
It has a heavy damping layer made from an non-resonant composite with a pressure sensitive adhesive for easy peal and stick applications. And on top of that is a 1" thick open cell foam layer.
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can i use dynamat type product for the vinyl layer? I have a roll of Raammat left over from my car audio days that I just found
http://www.raamaudio.com/products/RAAMmat-BXT-II.html
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Why mess with PE, isn't this cheaper?
http://www.thefoamfactory.com/packagingfoam/charcoalfoam.html#FirmCharcoal
which foam above matches No-rez the best? the charcoal regular foam or the charcoal firm foam?
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can i use dynamat type product for the vinyl layer? I have a roll of Raammat left over from my car audio days that I just found
http://www.raamaudio.com/products/RAAMmat-BXT-II.html
You can use that stuff with good effectiveness. It is 60 mils thick too. That is not bad. The damping layer on No Rez is 70 mils thick. So it is pretty close.
As far as foam goes any open cell type foam works fine. It can also be used in conjunction with a loose poly fill or fiberglass insulation.
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thanks Danny!
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Im considering using anti-drumming panels used for vibration damping on sheet metal and in cars. some are a bit over 2mm (80 mils or 80 thou as we say in the UK) but that should still be OK.
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Im considering using anti-drumming panels used for vibration damping on sheet metal and in cars. some are a bit over 2mm (80 mils or 80 thou as we say in the UK) but that should still be OK.
Correct.
Ive used a similar 80-mil Butyl-based automotive damping on cheap stamped speaker frames with excellent results. Its not as stiff but it also means it's easier to form-fit onto awkwardly shaped objects, like frames, corners or plastic horns. Tho it should work just fine so long as its covered with a similar foam, infill or fabric layer.
I believe the Carnegie version of the N3 (CST-1) that Danny sold for a while also used self-adhesive vinyl tiles, to help with resonance issues.
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I think there may be other photos of this elsewhere on the site, but for the sake of clarity here is my image of a cross section of No Rez with a ruler image for size reference. In this image, the backing is still on shown in the photo.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=226164)
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I don’t think there is any suitable replacements for No Res. It’s the only product like it on the market. Alternative like ones offered at Part express is a multi-layer.. with a layer being in the middle witch of I’m hearing correctly can possibly add reflection problems.
Essentially I think this No res is all one material, as it looks like a portion of the foam is heat compressed maybe, like a good half inch maybe or more. Which makes the backing, then the layer of pressure sensitive adhesive is added to the back. Making it all one material and such. Just my guess making it easy to use with many applications.
Not really a close substitute, but something that can work not as good but will get you by. Go to Home Depot or Lowe’s, and grab a sample or two of the flooring.. the faux wood floors with stick backing. If your carful you can split this sticky layer off. Then, attach a flooring foam to the other side or a dense open cell foam. The carpet padding is better. If your in a pinch, have a long area to do, this method I’ve seen used and people happy.
For the extra efforts, cost of gas, then spray glue, an foam… time and cost, your better off with No res.
Can’t beat it for the price.
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Not true Shives. No Rez is actually two separate things bonded together. The damping layer is some kind of binder with a high mineral content. Somewhat like mineral filled vinyl used in studios and home theaters to mitigate sound transmission. Bonded to this is a foam layer that acts as box stuffing, effectively diffusing internal sound waves.
The Sonic Barrier that parts express sells is similar except that there's a second thin layer of foam that separates the adhesive from the damping layer. This doesn't provide the same damping qualities that bonding directly to the panel provides. And because Sonic Barrier places the damping layer away from the panel it has the effect of making box volume smaller.
The most effective way to seat-of-pants reverse engineer what No Rez does is too consider its two different functions. The damping layer could be something dense, yet flexible. Perhaps linoleum floor tile. And by the way linoleum and vinyl are not the same thing. The heavier, (in weight), the better. The box stuffing could be foam, poly fill, fiberglass, wool, etc. One of the key things to consider is that this needs to be somewhat sound transparent or it can affect box volume.
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The heavier, (in weight), the better.
That is why I used 2 layers of the self-stick floor tile in my DIY experiment. The 3M Hi-Strength 90 spray adhesive on the floor tile is necessary when tiling tower speakers. Even though the tile has adhesive the glue is designed to be used horizontally. Stick them on a wall or vertical surface and sometimes they peal off. The 3M adhesive makes them stick permanently.
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The 3M spray is good advice. We use to use it all the time when applying self-adhesives. I have never had anything come loose when using that method.
Larry D.
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I have been restoring a mint pair of Dynaco A25’s and made some “hillbilly” no rez using self stick tiles and some 1” upholstery foam. Cut the tiles first for all their placements and then cut foam to match. Used gorilla glue (sparingly) on foam and pressed onto tile. Removed self stick paper and put in place.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=226203)
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Sorry for upside down pic but you get the idea.
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A few years ago when rebuilding an old pair of polk sda speakers, I used a combination of dynamat and black hole from sonicraft. At the time I had never heard of No-Res. Black hole has gone up in price it seems, next project will get no-res!
Barry
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I'm a fan of the No-Rez for it's composite layer, but not the open cell foam as I doubt there is much benefit from it compared to regular roxal insulation etc. Replace the foam with some aero-gel and I bet the results will be far superior, just thinking next level performance, without cost constraints. I have some for experimenting and will report back after I give it a go.
Cheers,
Don
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Yikes, that’s why I used words like I think, looks like. But hey, no problem. My apologies.
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I saw some garden kneeling mats at the store they are 1 1-1/2 Eva foam with a thick rubber (1/8 inch maybe)bonded to it I wonder if that would be a decent substitute.
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Interesting topic. I actually stapled an entire layer off 6.4mm thick rubber vibration dampening material from AudiMute on the subfloor of the theater room. It’s made from recycled tires, so it’s very inexpensive relative to other materials. This worked really well. You can barely hear any sound in the rooms below when the speakers are blaring. I used some excess and cut it into strips to put under my X-Voce not only to separate it from the glass surface of the cabinet but also to tilt it up slightly (I may tilt it some more by adding more strips).
Now I’m wondering if it could be a substitute for all of the other things mentioned.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=226360)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=226361)
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OK, after 3 hours of searching for it, I give up :x
I know that I have read something somewhere about how to fudge up a no-rez substitute using (may be) lino tiles, a heap of contact adhesive and acoustic foam or something like that??
I only ask as I am pretty sure that I have also read that its not worth the money to ship O/S as its kinda bulky!
Is my memory serving me here and/or are there other/better options available?
Thanks guys
I used the self adhesive floor tile and foam trick. I also used polyfill behind the drivers as per Danny's advice. :thumb:
I cut to shape both adhesive floor tiles (hardware store) and foam (ebay). Sprayed on some selley's spray adhesive to the inside of the box (maybe a little overboard here). Then peeled and stuck the floor tiles in place. I then peeled and stuck the acoustic foam to the tiles.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=226365)