AudioCircle
Community => Non-audio hobbies and interests => Cars and Bikes => Topic started by: Don_S on 26 Sep 2023, 04:19 pm
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My neighbor just bought a Toyota RAV4 plug-in hybrid. Awesome dark blue metallic looks great with the black trim, black wheels, and tinted windows. I like the look much better than models with contrasting paint. My neighbor let me drive it around a few blocks. I fell in love with the car. That was until he opened the hood. :o There was barely room for an ant to crawl around.
I understand hybrids still require oil and coolant changes. They also have a transmission and drive train for the gasoline engine. If I have to still deal with all that I don't want or need a hybrid. I do not drive much any more and no long distances so an all electric would work for me and I prefer the more simple design. Unfortunately Toyota does not make an all electric RAV4 (yet). FYI, I have a 2004 Highlander with less than 50,000 miles so I do not need another car yet but when I do I want another SUV. I am tired of dealing with all the fluid requirements so all-electric is enticing.
I do not understand how the electric motors are connected and operate. Are they simply variable speed connected directly to the wheels? That makes sense but I do not understand how that meshes with the gasoline powered part of a hybrid and how they trade off.
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My best friend has a Toyota Prius Prime Plug-in Hybrid, it is a very nice car, I call it a spaceship because of the smooth quiet ride like it never touches the road. Yes, it's poky but it gets us where we want to go.
The Prius Prime uses the both the electric and gas engine when we go up from 2500' elevation to the top of Mt. Lemmon at 9000' for bird watching. The battery is recharged to 100% on the way down with 90 mpg on the dash readout. The round trip from Tucson, AZ to Bisbee, AZ is 200 miles and we never have to stop for gas or charge the battery, MPG is again very high. The trade-off between electric and gas operation is seamless although there is a little noticeable engine noise only because all electric is so quiet.
The Prius Prime uses so little gas that it has a stale gas warning system to let you know to use up the old gas and add new fresh gas.
A couple months ago my friend went in for the last free service at the end of the 3 year new car warranty. While waiting in the dealer's new car showroom, a salesman came over to chat and told her that if she wanted to trade in her 3 year old Prius for a 2024 model they would give her exactly what she paid for it as a trade-in value.
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There's some info here which might be helpful (on the right you can hit 'all electric' or 'hybrid electric' to see differences) - https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/how-do-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars-work#:~:text=PHEV%20batteries%20can%20be%20charged,over%20to%20use%20the%20ICE.
The problems I have with all electric is the lack of sufficient infrastructure (e.g. https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/how-do-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars-work#:~:text=PHEV%20batteries%20can%20be%20charged,over%20to%20use%20the%20ICE.) and no one ever talks about where the electric comes from (e.g. coal - https://www.statista.com/statistics/528603/distribution-electricity-net-generation-in-the-us-by-fuel-type/)
My current vehicle (2023 Lexus RX350h) and prior vehicle were hybrids which don't plug in. I have about 6,000 miles on the current vehicle and per the usuage history it has been fluctuating between getting 37.2 and 37.3 mpg. I took it on a trip just before Memorial Day and didn't have to worry about where to find charging. I don't do tons of driving. I have the vehicle about 8 months and a significant portion of that 6,000 miles (just back and forth to the destination was over 1,200 miles without the driving I did at the destination so it was at least 1,400-1,500 miles if not more).
The vehicle has every feature I could ever want. That includes the Mark Levinson audio system. I have 20,000+ songs all CD quality or higher on three thumb drives which I could swap in depending on what I feel like listening to.
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Plug in Hybrid is the best system right now by far for most users.
It doesn't have massive batteries, but they are generally enough to do local trips w/o using any gas, but they have a gas motor for longer trips. The battery allows for regen braking and excellent fuel economy.
I really like the Prius Prime. I'm very tempted to buy one. Love my '16 M235xi too though. :lol:
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I really like the Prius Prime. I'm very tempted to buy one.
3 years ago my friend took advantage of the Federal Tax Credit which was either $3500 or $7500. Buying a hybrid at that time was a no-brainer. I am retired and don't pay that much in taxes so couldn't take advantage of the tax credit.
On August 16, 2022, the passage of the Inflation Reduction Act meant that more electric and hybrid vehicles would be once again eligible for a federal tax credit. While this is good news overall, new eligibility requirements mean that a lot of vehicles no longer meet the criteria for the tax credit—and one of those vehicles is the Toyota Prius Prime, which is assembled in Japan.
In order to qualify for the full $7,500 federal EV tax credit, the EV you purchase has to be brand new and assembled in North America. The Prius Prime along with the RAV4 Hybrid are assembled elsewhere.
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I was looking at a used Lexus UX recently - that is a hybrid that you just drive normally and get better gas mileage - no it won't run on pure electric or anything like that - you just put gas in, and drive it normally and it delivers good mileage (especially around town where the electric motor does more work).
In the case of the Lexus, the electric motor is connected only to the rear wheels - so when driving in normal conditions it functions as a purely gas FWD. Once the computer brain detects that electric power would be useful, it kicks on and then is AWD.
Did not buy it, but would consider it as the easiest way into a hybrid - for me personally, if I am plugging the car in, I would want an actual EV like the Ford Mach E or something.
I do think Toyota brings a true EV to north america this coming year - but don't expect their first effort to be competitive with the best EV's just yet (thinking range).
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PHEV's negate one of the most significant benefits of all electric, which is maintenance of the ICE. I have a good friend who is 3+ years into his Tesla Model 3 ownership. He drives a lot of miles for work and his maintenance cost was essentially zero other than tires.
We had a Lexus RX450h hybrid (not PHEV though) and while it got decent mileage for an SUV, the transition from battery to engine at every stoplight was not so seamless. I also hate the start/stop "feature" on new cars, so perhaps it's just my own pet peeve that kept me from loving that car.
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Our 2022 Toyota RAV4 Hybrid has about 10k miles on it right now. Getting around 43-45mpg according to the dash. I think that's because neither my wife or I are very aggressive drivers. Very happy so far with the mileage.....and don't have to worry about the non-existent US battery charging infrastructure.
However, the issues we had with the !@#@@#%^ 2nd fob "program" -- we got the bait-&-switch and had only one key for this car for 10 months -- were beyond maddening. Toyota couldn't have done much more to botch this issue if they had a designated team assigned solely to screw this up. This soured us on making a Toyota purchase again. Not sure that will ever happen. Nice car, though.
-dGB
P.S. Read up on the potential power grid issues with having all of America switch over to EVs. Even if they build a bunch of charging stations overnight, the increased electricity demand will probably tax the grid to well beyond capacity. Some states, like CA, are trying to plan for this drastic increase in electricity need. Other states -- I promise I won't name names -- good luck with that. But this issue alone is one of the reasons why we opted for a hybrid. The US infrastructure is not ready for a 100% changeover to EVs right now.
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P.S. Read up on the potential power grid issues with having all of America switch over to EVs. Even if they build a bunch of charging stations overnight, the increased electricity demand will probably tax the grid to well beyond capacity. Some states, like CA, are trying to plan for this drastic increase in electricity need. Other states -- I promise I won't name names -- good luck with that. But this issue alone is one of the reasons why we opted for a hybrid. The US infrastructure is not ready for a 100% changeover to EVs right now.
I agree, although some folks may have the good fortune to be able to charge at home and never use the spotty charging infrastructure. Even so, they and the planet would be better off with a plug-in hybrid because pure EVs have so much battery and motor the environmental impacts are huge and it takes a lot of time to recoup all that investment. With a car like the Hummer EV that may never even happen, it's probably worse than most ICE vehicles.
This is Toyota's position the issue, and it's why they offer hybrids. I agree with them. Most other companies and people seem overly enthusiastic and very emotional about EVs, they are the guilt-free luxury vehicles to have because of that. It's all BS though, lol. Your Tesla with a 300+ mile range and 0-60 <4s, 2.5 ton conveyance isn't saving the world.
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I went from a diesel VW (600mi/tank) to
a Nissan Leaf to
a BMW i3 Rex
now to a Mini PHEV.
The Leaf worked because I had a charger at work and the round trip was <30mi. Can't imagine traveling farther in it than that without worrying.
The i3 Rex worked because 70mi/electric and another 70mi/gas was all I ever needed. Since it was electric-only 90% of the time the benefits of minimal maintenance of an EV worked in my favor.
The i3 got old and my current needs require trips of 120mi one-way fairly often (5-10x/month). Even with the Rex, it was a chore to drive on I95 looking for chargers at just the right interval. Never really managed it. There are some good ones in Maryland but...
Since I know I drive about a 100mi/week with those occasional long trips I knew I wanted a PHEV to do that 100mi/week electrically and not worry about charging on the long trips.
The Mini was a bit of an impulse buy but I'm really loving it so far.
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Bought a $53k Lexus 300h in January that replaced a 2012 Camry with 267k miles. The Camry was a fine car, mileage was slipping from 33 to 30 mpg. The only issue was failed lock actuators ($1800 to replace 3 that went out in succession). Have only 6k miles on the Lexus but it gets 43 mpg. It's a smooth/quiet operator, with lots of safety features - feels like it drives itself. Hybrid battery comes with lifetime replacement warranty. But dealer service is expensive ($106 for an oil change with synthetic oil and a special fuel additive). Price of owning a luxury brand I suppose.
Haven't found a single recharging station in my rural county, so electric was out of the question. Not a believer in lugging thousands of pounds of batteries around that are environmentally harmful to produce/dispose of and powered by burning coal anyway. Solar powered fuel cells make more sense to me, but the needed infrastructure for distribution may never come thanks to the fossil fuel investment.
Hybrid pricing varies but can be competitive with ICE (Internal Combustion Engine). Yes there's added complexity that shade tree mechanics would struggle with, but no difference for everyday driving with the advantage of improved fuel economy. Always do the math on maintenance costs versus fuel savings. I bought the Lexus based on superior reliability and projected long life (even better than Toyota).
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I bought a 2013 Lexus Ct200h hybrid in 2015 with 20k on the odometer and have driven it for 100,000 miles on a 70 mile a day commute. It's been the most reliable car I've ever owned. About the only thing that's gone wrong is a mysterious, so far untraceable, intermittent rattle that no one can seem to find the source of. It's more of a European market car than a typical American vehicle, but it has served me well as a one person commuter. I average 40-42 mpg.
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P.S. Read up on the potential power grid issues with having all of America switch over to EVs. Even if they build a bunch of charging stations overnight, the increased electricity demand will probably tax the grid to well beyond capacity. Some states, like CA, are trying to plan for this drastic increase in electricity need. Other states -- I promise I won't name names -- good luck with that. But this issue alone is one of the reasons why we opted for a hybrid. The US infrastructure is not ready for a 100% changeover to EVs right now.
Correct - https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-us-power-grid-isnt-ready-electric-cars-john-w-mortensen
Also, as I noted above, a significant percentage of the US electricity comes from polluting sources - e.g. https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3
Also, Lithium can't be recycled and Cobalt is used in its manufacture. Many of the Cobalt mines in Africa are owned by the Chinese and people die regularly getting it out of the ground - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V3bIzNX4co
No one ever talks about this either - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SEfwoqKRU8
or this - https://www.businessinsider.com/ev-charging-cost-versus-gas-car-truck-suv-2023-7#:~:text=Charging%20any%20of%20these%20vehicles,about%20%2416.10%20per%20100%20miles.
"Charging any of these vehicles at home will run about $12.62 per 100 miles while fueling one at a gas station may run about $11.08. That difference, while not incredibly substantial, may add up — and when these drivers go to a public charging station, they're likely to pay about $16.10 per 100 miles."
I also noted earlier, I took my vehicle on one trip earlier this year and up in the mountains and on the way, charging stations were rarely seen.
Now EV technology will get better over time - e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EF2inScuaw If so, down the road, I might consider something with a gas engine which plugs in and can take me a decent distance (at least 60 miles) on an electric charge from home and the only time I'd need to gas up is when I exceeded that distance (which for me is likely to mean a road trip).
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Our 2022 Toyota RAV4 Hybrid has about 10k miles on it right now. Getting around 43-45mpg according to the dash. I think that's because neither my wife or I are very aggressive drivers. Very happy so far with the mileage.....and don't have to worry about the non-existent US battery charging infrastructure.
However, the issues we had with the !@#@@#%^ 2nd fob "program" -- we got the bait-&-switch and had only one key for this car for 10 months -- were beyond maddening. Toyota couldn't have done much more to botch this issue if they had a designated team assigned solely to screw this up. This soured us on making a Toyota purchase again. Not sure that will ever happen. Nice car, though.
-dGB
P.S. Read up on the potential power grid issues with having all of America switch over to EVs. Even if they build a bunch of charging stations overnight, the increased electricity demand will probably tax the grid to well beyond capacity. Some states, like CA, are trying to plan for this drastic increase in electricity need. Other states -- I promise I won't name names -- good luck with that. But this issue alone is one of the reasons why we opted for a hybrid. The US infrastructure is not ready for a 100% changeover to EVs right now.
California can hardly keep the lights on and the air conditioners running at peak demand I've heard. How will they handle a few million electric vehicles?
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I agree, although some folks may have the good fortune to be able to charge at home and never use the spotty charging infrastructure. Even so, they and the planet would be better off with a plug-in hybrid because pure EVs have so much battery and motor the environmental impacts are huge and it takes a lot of time to recoup all that investment. With a car like the Hummer EV that may never even happen, it's probably worse than most ICE vehicles.
This is Toyota's position the issue, and it's why they offer hybrids. I agree with them. Most other companies and people seem overly enthusiastic and very emotional about EVs, they are the guilt-free luxury vehicles to have because of that. It's all BS though, lol. Your Tesla with a 300+ mile range and 0-60 <4s, 2.5 ton conveyance isn't saving the world.
:thumb: EV's aren't going to save anything. Quite the opposite in fact. A hybrid easily makes the most sense to me. With that all said though, I'll probably keep driving my ICE vehicle till one of us expire.
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I drive a 2019 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, 12 miles round trip for work daily, haven't put gas in, in 3+ months. However if I do need to do a longer trip, most certainly wouldn't want an EV with all the long distance charging nightmares I've seen. Like the ICE option. They work seamlessly together.
Don't mind plugging in to the 115V outlet for 4 hours after I get home at all. To me PHEVs make the most sense...for me. Next gen has double the EV range. I'd expect the same for next gen RAV4 too. Might be my next vehicle.
cheers,
AJ
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Personally I think full EV's do not make sense if you don't have a garage.
If you DO have a garage then full EV's are a no brainer. FAR cheaper to run and maintain.
I never have to worry about charging infrastructure because it's always 'full' when I leave my house.
Was joking with my buddy (who own's several Porches) that driving a Model Y is like driving a Porsche, if a Porsche got 130 miles to the gallon and cost zero dollars to maintain. :lol:
Earlier today my son and I went into the mountains with it for the first time, to see the fall foliage. Going out west to Evergreen, then south to Morrison (along the river) and I have to say, there's something especially beautiful about experiencing the awesomeness of nature in a vehicle that is whisper quiet.
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Personally I think full EV's do not make sense if you don't have a garage.
If you DO have a garage then full EV's are a no brainer. FAR cheaper to run and maintain.
I never have to worry about charging infrastructure because it's always 'full' when I leave my house.
Was joking with my buddy (who own's several Porches) that driving a Model Y is like driving a Porsche, if a Porsche got 130 miles to the gallon and cost zero dollars to maintain. :lol:
Earlier today my son and I went into the mountains with it for the first time, to see the fall foliage. Going out west to Evergreen, then south to Morrison (along the river) and I have to say, there's something especially beautiful about experiencing the awesomeness of nature in a vehicle that is whisper quiet.
No arguments about advantages of EVs over ICE. However, I have ridden in two different Tesla models - the Y and I don't recall the other (not the S). Both times I sat in the backseat and was surprised and very bothered by the huge volume of road noise coming through the wheel wells and/or trunk. Teslas may be quiet in the front seats, but riding in the backseat is not a pleasant experience.
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No arguments about advantages of EVs over ICE. However, I have ridden in two different Tesla models - the Y and I don't recall the other (not the S). Both times I sat in the backseat and was surprised and very bothered by the huge volume of road noise coming through the wheel wells and/or trunk. Teslas may be quiet in the front seats, but riding in the backseat is not a pleasant experience.
Your experience is right on. And it wasn’t just the back seats it was the whole car, they were all fairly noisy. The Model Y got much quieter about 4 months ago due to using gigacastings as well as substantial improvements to the suspension, along with things like double panes acoustic glass on the windows.
The Y is already really quiet now, and the Model 3 is in the process of getting these same changes, it’s available in Europe and Asia but not yet America.
The crazy thing is that they are making all these changes at the same time that they are reducing their prices. For example my Model Y was 52k before rebates back in July and now the same model is $48k. Impressive.
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EVs don't make sense with the fragile national power grid and limited travel distance. Also really not viable in the north when it's cold when the batteries lose efficiency.
Hybrid does and been around a long time, also I think the alternatives like hydrogen and perhaps other fuel types will displace batteries when it's all said and done.
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EVs don't make sense with the fragile national power grid and limited travel distance. Also really not viable in the north when it's cold when the batteries lose efficiency.
Hybrid does and been around a long time, also I think the alternatives like hydrogen and perhaps other fuel types will displace batteries when it's all said and done.
+1
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I’ve found that the grid here in CO (and most places it seems) get close to capacity in the late afternoon and early evening. That’s peak demand. Definitely don’t want to change an EV during those times.
But off peak? There’s plenty of capacity and it’s CHEAP. I charge my car starting at midnight and it’s 10 cents per kWh.
It gets pretty cold and snowy here in CO. This is my first winter with the EV, so I am curious to see how it does in adverse conditions. Not just battery, but traction and the ability to deal with slippery inclines and declines.
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EV's are not practical for the majority of the country. They are expensive, have range and safety issues, and do NOT actually help the environment. If you want to own one, fine. Forcing people to buy one is stupid.
Besides, they actually are a worse option for the environment long term, as the batteries are hazard once depleted. EV's also enrich the CCP. That's a non starter in my book.
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EV's are not practical for the majority of the country. They are expensive, have range and safety issues, and do NOT actually help the environment. If you want to own one, fine. Forcing people to buy one is stupid.
Besides, they actually are a worse option for the environment long term, as the batteries are hazard once depleted. EV's also enrich the CCP. That's a non starter in my book.
I've owned ICE cars my entire life. This is my first EV. I'm simply reporting my own, first hand experience. For me, it's not inconvenient. In fact it's the opposite, it's very convenient to never have to go to a gas station.
For me, it's not expensive. Right now the Model Y Long Range is $48k before rebates. After rebates ($7500 federal and $5k state for CO) that's $35.5k. That is NOT an expensive car.
It's funny you mention safety because my last car got into an accident where both airbags deployed and it was completely totaled. I wanted my next car to the ultra safe, which I'd assumed would be a Volvo of some type. But I was wrong, after a bit of research it was clear the Teslas are the safest cars around. Particularly if you look at the European safety tests (which are much more stringent than American tests) it's clear that Teslas are the safest cars ever made. That was actually the main reason I became interested in a Model Y in the first place.
Before I bought it, I was also concerned about battery fires because you hear about that on the news. But looking at the actual stats, Teslas are about 20x LESS likely to catch fire than ICE vehicles, based on # of fires per # of miles driven.
Re: being bad for the environment or not? Well I don't really care because that's not why I bought the car.
I feel the same way about it being faster than a Porsche. I mean, it's nice, but its not really why I bought the car.
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EV's are not practical for the majority of the country. They are expensive, have range and safety issues, and do NOT actually help the environment. If you want to own one, fine. Forcing people to buy one is stupid.
Besides, they actually are a worse option for the environment long term, as the batteries are hazard once depleted.
I agree with the words above. But, forcing isn't stupid, it's evil.
The real recycling we should be doing should be to rebuild older cars to keep them on the road. It doesn't destroy the earth by mining materials nor burying materials that we don't know what to do with. I'm not just talking about classic cars, but modern cars. I would be all for making it beneficial for shops to do this and not charge an arm and a leg.
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Also, I'm not sure what people mean when they say that there's no infrastructure. Looking at the map of chargers on Tesla's website, seems pretty impressive to me:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=257892)
And that's JUST the Tesla chargers. There's many other companies out there offering chargers, like Chargepoint, Electrify America, EVgo, that more than triple the number of chargers shown above.
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Also, I'm not sure what people mean when they say that there's no infrastructure. Looking at the map of chargers on Tesla's website, seems pretty impressive to me:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=257892)
And that's JUST the Tesla chargers. There's many other companies out there offering chargers, like Chargepoint, Electrify America, EVgo, that more than triple the number of chargers shown above.
From my understanding, if you put a supercharger at your house (personal use), it gets indicated as a common supercharger location. So, it is possible that some of those dots are not public supercharging stations.
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From my understanding, if you put a supercharger at your house (personal use), it gets indicated as a common supercharger location. So, it is possible that some of those dots are not public supercharging stations.
That's not true. I put a charger in my garage and it certainly doesn't show up on the map. The red dots are Superchargers which are always at least 4 stalls (and usually 12 to 16 stalls) in public areas. The grey dots are 'destination chargers' like at a hotel or a shopping center parking garage.
Here's one cool thing that I learned recently. You can also charge a Tesla at anyone's house that has an electric dryer outlet. You just use the 'mobile charger' from Tesla, plug it into their dryer outlet and it will give you level 2 charging speeds (about 40 miles added per hour). So even if there weren't Superchargers everywhere, you would never, ever be stuck.
But luckily there ARE a ton of Superchargers everywhere so not even a concern.
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That's not true. I put a charger in my garage and it certainly doesn't show up on the map. The red dots are Superchargers which are always at least 4 stalls (and usually 12 to 16 stalls) in public areas. The grey dots are 'destination chargers' like at a hotel or a shopping center parking garage.
Here's one cool thing that I learned recently. You can also charge a Tesla at anyone's house that has an electric dryer outlet. You just use the 'mobile charger' from Tesla, plug it into their dryer outlet and it will give you level 2 charging speeds (about 40 miles added per hour). So even if there weren't Superchargers everywhere, you would never, ever be stuck.
But luckily there ARE a ton of Superchargers everywhere so not even a concern.
The company I work for are considering looking into electric service vehicles as an option. Someone I work with is 100% ready to do it because they would install an actual charger/supercharger at his house for free. I remember him stating that it HAS happened where the map indicated a charger at a home location.
And, chargers are not everywhere. Many people don't have the option for charging where they live or work.
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The company I work for are considering looking into electric service vehicles as an option. Someone I work with is 100% ready to do it because they would install an actual charger/supercharger at his house for free. I remember him stating that it HAS happened where the map indicated a charger at a home location.
And, chargers are not everywhere. Many people don't have the option for charging where they live or work.
I agree man, BEV's are not for everyone, as I stated in my first post on this thread. IMO, they only make sense if you have a garage where you can install a charger.
Re: the map, what map exactly? It's definitely not the Tesla map because Tesla has sold millions of cars and there are millions of home chargers installed already, but there's 'only' 50,000 Superchargers on their map.
But I am curious about the map your friend is referring to. Let me know.
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Lot of reactionary posts in many places against EV's. :roll: Anyway, with SS batteries coming with at least 700 + mile ranges and a lot more in the future, noisy, air polluting (+changing the oil several times a year) ICE vehicles will be history except for those that want to live in the past.
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Lot of reactionary posts in many places against EV's. :roll: Anyway, with SS batteries coming with at least 700 + mile ranges and a lot more in the future, noisy, air polluting (+changing the oil several times a year) ICE vehicles will be history except for those that want to live in the past.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Newer is not always better. It isn't "reactionary". These are factual concerns about this technology that the public and private sector is forcing on people.
Don't think that the tax breaks you get won't turn around into being taxed for owning the thing, tax for charging, or whatever the government decides to tax on it.
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I think EV's are cool and I might like to have one, but the private sector is being coerced down this path by the government sector.
In my opinion, due to the batteries-charging infrastructure-vehicle cost this relentless push will not end well.
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Lot of reactionary posts in many places against EV's. :roll: Anyway, with SS batteries coming with at least 700 + mile ranges and a lot more in the future, noisy, air polluting (+changing the oil several times a year) ICE vehicles will be history except for those that want to live in the past.
Exactly. The total pollution footprint for EV vs ICE is ridiculously in favor of electric. It's not even close, like 90-10%. The argument that we're burning coal for the electricity is false. Less than 20% of our power generation is from coal and it's falling fast. In my backward rural small town charging stations are everywhere and usually available for use. As far as government mandate, hilarious. You drive ICE cars with government mandates now, seat belts, air bags, crash bumpers, pollution controls, fuel economy standards, crash worthiness standards, recycling requirements. Every inch of your gas powered car is regulated down to the financing documents. EV cars and trucks are the wave of the future and it won't be long before it will be much harder to find a gas station than it is a charging station today. You'll need an app to find gasoline.
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Just bought an EV riding lawn mower and am disappointed. It was advertised as having a top speed of 8 mph and a range of 2.5 acres. It also has two speed settings for travel and cutting. Come to find out maximum speed and range don't coincide. Tried it out and got about 1/2 acre at top travel/blade speed before batteries were down to 5%. And the batteries are expensive ($1800 at full retail, reportedly good for 2000 charges). They do recharge quickly and the mower's price was competitive with ICE.
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Hybrid cars can certainly be an interim "solution" for those not ready or unable to go full electric. Although they do have more complexity and weight than an IC powered car, the battery and control systems have been remarkably trouble-free for the last 15+ years. In addition they can offer both improved performance and improved fuel economy compared to an IC powered car, and sometimes improved handling as well (the lower center of gravity offsets the higher weight). Since it is likely to be at least 5 years (probably closer to 10) before there is both an adequate charging infrastructure and affordable EV's with acceptable range (minimum 300 miles on an 80% charge) a hybrid can be a good purchase for many people at this time. JMO.
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I didn't buy an EV because our electricity rates in San Diego county are amongst the highest in the nation. My cousin lives 30 miles north of me (in LA county) and our rates are almost 5 times higher. He has two Teslas and loves them. I ran the numbers, and even the most efficient EV for me would have come up to an equivalent cost as a 35 mpg ICE car. I ended up with a 50 mpg hybrid (Kia Niro) and it is great.
Our next car will be an EV though. I'll cross into the Senior rate structure and will be retired, so my electricity cost will go down by about 60%.
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Hybrid cars can certainly be an interim "solution" for those not ready or unable to go full electric. Although they do have more complexity and weight than an IC powered car, the battery and control systems have been remarkably trouble-free for the last 15+ years. In addition they can offer both improved performance and improved fuel economy compared to an IC powered car, and sometimes improved handling as well (the lower center of gravity offsets the higher weight). Since it is likely to be at least 5 years (probably closer to 10) before there is both an adequate charging infrastructure and affordable EV's with acceptable range (minimum 300 miles on an 80% charge) a hybrid can be a good purchase for many people at this time. JMO.
Forcing a EV solution on the public is a terrible option. There is more downside than upside. Most of the public is naive on the subject. If the public actually understood the entire picture, EV's would be less popular. I can see some use cases for EV's, but anyone who does long distance traveling will not be keen on the idea of using an EV. There are already a lot of horror stories regarding this issue. Let the free market decide, not a bunch of corrupt politicians who don't understand the big picture.
What makes a lot more sense, which the Japanese are quietly pushing are Fuel Cells. The existing petrol infrastructure can be converted to support Hydrogen fuel. Nuclear power is also part of the long term solution for energy.
Hybrids are an excellent option in the near term.
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I've owned hybrids for 10 years, a 2012 Lincoln MKZ, and a 2020 Toyota Avalon. Both have been very trouble free, Lincoln averaged 37mpg and Toyota 40, 450 mile range, both respectable for their size, luxury, and comfort. I have a bit of a heavy foot, so better figures are achievable if I wanted to slow down some.
I keep an eye on EV development, but for my purposes EVs are not nearly as practical a solution- yet.
I like taking road trips in the open spaces of the Northwest (live in Seattle), and planning how to hit charging stations and planning around charging times is very inconvenient, whereas gas stations are easy to find everywhere. I can't charge at home.
Until longer range/fast charging batteries are common (Toyota has a 750 mile ss battery on the way) I won't be interested.
These future developments may well make existing EVs obsolete very rapidly, making total cost of ownership very expensive.
Who will want to pay up for a used EV with 250 mile range when there is 750 miles available?
I think my Avalon hybrid will be very useful for another 10 years or so. By then things should settle out in the EV space, including infrastructure shortfalls.
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Cars are one of the most emotional purchases we make. We don't buy cars on their technical merits, that's just how we justify what we want. EVs are bought by folks on the same basis, mostly so they can assuage the guilt they might have for buying a nice car and signal to others they are doing their part to save the environment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecnS1Ygf0o0
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I've owned hybrids for 10 years, a 2012 Lincoln MKZ, and a 2020 Toyota Avalon. Both have been very trouble free, Lincoln averaged 37mpg and Toyota 40, 450 mile range, both respectable for their size, luxury, and comfort.
I keep an eye on EV development, but for my purposes EVs are not nearly as practical a solution- yet.
I like taking road trips in the open spaces of the Northwest (live in Seattle), and planning how to hit charging stations and planning around charging times is very inconvenient, whereas gas stations are easy to find everywhere. I can't charge at home.
Until longer range/fast charging batteries are common (Toyota has a 750 mile ss battery on the way) I won't be interested.
These future developments may well make existing EVs obsolete very rapidly, making total cost of ownership very expensive.
Who will want to pay up for a used EV with 250 mile range when there is 750 miles available?
I think my Avalon hybrid will be very useful for another 10 years or so. By then things should settle out in the EV space, including infrastructure shortfalls.
I agree, people will buy full EV's when they are better, cheaper and more convenient than a gas car. We're getting closer to that point now but, IMO, we are not there yet.
Right now, for some people it IS better/cheaper/convenient (like me), and for others it's not.
As we were coming back from the mountains in my Model Y the other day, I was joking with my son that he'll live to see the day that gas stations are obsolete and will simply disappear like video stores. His response was "What's a video store"? :lol:
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I agree, people will buy full EV's when they are better, cheaper and more convenient than a gas car. We're getting closer to that point now but, IMO, we are not there yet.
Right now, for some people it IS better/cheaper/convenient (like me), and for others it's not.
As we were coming back from the mountains in my Model Y the other day, I was joking with my son that he'll live to see the day that gas stations are obsolete and will simply disappear like video stores. His response was "What's a video store"? :lol:
Respectfully disagree. The battery technology is a real bottleneck. Besides, the rare earth materials have to be purchased from the CCP (not good). The electric grid is not set up to handle the entire country using EVs. The cost of doing so is prohibitive. Not to mention the environmental impact of dealing with spent batteries. EV's are actually more environmentally worse than the current ICE cars, when all the factors are considered. There is also the hidden costs of road maintenance, as EV's are heavier. They also wear out tires on average over legacy cars. There are use cases for EVs, but the push to mandate is irresponsible at best.
Then let's talk the trucking industry. They have been sounding the alarm about long distance transport/cost if forced to switch to all EVs. If you think inflation is bad now (and it is) just with if this mandate actually goes through. Once the reality of this is actually realized by the general public, opposition will continue to grow. It's already well over 50%.
[size=78%] [/size]
Fuel Cells make a lot more sense in the long run.
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Respectfully disagree. The battery technology is a real bottleneck. Besides, the rare earth materials have to be purchased from the CCP (not good). The electric grid is not set up to handle the entire country using EVs. The cost of doing so is prohibitive. Not to mention the environmental impact of dealing with spent batteries. EV's are actually more environmentally worse than the current ICE cars, when all the factors are considered. There is also the hidden costs of road maintenance, as EV's are heavier. They also wear out tires on average over legacy cars. There are use cases for EVs, but the push to mandate is irresponsible at best.
Then let's talk the trucking industry. They have been sounding the alarm about long distance transport/cost if forced to switch to all EVs. If you think inflation is bad now (and it is) just with if this mandate actually goes through. Once the reality of this is actually realized by the general public, opposition will continue to grow. It's already well over 50%.
[size=78%] [/size]
Fuel Cells make a lot more sense in the long run.
It's always good to look at actual data with things like this. My mind works more in the realm of cost and economics. Like cost of materials. For example, here's what's happened to the price of Lithium Ion batteries over the past 30 years. I should note that the price has continued to fall in the last 5 years as well.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=257938)
And re: lithium resources being in China, I should note that the largest, by far, lithium repository has just been discovered (this year) in Nevada. That's pretty awesome. Given that we have the resources and are actively building out very large battery factories all over the US right now, America has a real shot at true energy independence in the semi-near future. To me, that's pretty incredible.
If you think that things (like cars) actually being made in America is important (I do), then you should definitely be buying a Tesla. They are (once again), the MOST American made cars. And they have been for a while. It's a result of Tesla's relentless pursuit of localizing all of their supply chains, plus actually building giant factories here:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=257939)
To sum up, I find these changes to be very positive and makes our future quite hopeful. I'm not sure why people react so negatively to a message that is essentially hopeful.
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I appreciate your point of view and optimism, but it fails to address the real issues with the cost and upkeep of the power grid, actual long term costs of logistics and upkeep of delivering goods , the longer environmental impacts, and that is just for starters. I'm still against forcing this solution on the public, and that position will not change.
Still argue that Fuel Cells and Nuclear power are the better engineering and scientific answers to fossil fuel.
BTW, my car is a Chrysler Van, made in Windsor, Ontario.
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I appreciate your point of view and optimism, but it fails to address the real issues with the cost and upkeep of the power grid, actual long term costs of logistics and upkeep of delivering goods , the longer environmental impacts, and that is just for starters. I'm still against forcing this solution on the public, and that position will not change.
Still argue that Fuel Cells and Nuclear power are the better engineering and scientific answers to fossil fuel.
BTW, my car is a Chrysler Van, made in Windsor, Ontario.
Well, I could talk in detail about how the grid is actually fairly robust and not fragile and how the transition is going to be even better/easier/cheaper than most people think it will be, there's already really good data on all of that and it's all moving in a positive direction.
But, based on the bolded part above, your mind is already made up and won't be changed regardless of the actual facts. So, I won't bother.
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EVs are currently about 3% of all vehicles sold in the US. Scaling up battery production will take time. Manufacturers are only going to make EVs if they can sell them. I think they are overestimating demand for them.
Customers are fickle and a segment of the population wants nothing to do with an EV. EVs are a stop gap until fuel cells and hydrogen technology improves.
Currently Roadwork is funded via Motor Fuel Tax based on gasoline purchases. Since EVs are heavier, they wear out the road faster. States will be coming up with other methods of taxing EV owners to contribute to road maintenance. In IL it costs more to license an EV vehicle than a ICE vehicle.
I don't have an EV or Hybrid. My wife likes convertibles and there are no EV convertibles available yet. I have an SUV. It was not available as a hybrid. On other vehicles the cost delta between the Hybird version and the regular version didn't cost out well. We use it to tow a boat, so we need something with towing capacity. I know that some EVs have towing capability, but it really reduces range.
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EVs are currently about 1% of all vehicles sold in the US. Scaling up battery production will take time. Manufacturers are only going to make EVs if they can sell them. I think they are overestimating demand for them.
Customers are fickle and a segment of the population wants nothing to do with an EV. EVs are a stop gap until fuel cells and hydrogen technology improves.
Currently Roadwork is funded via Motor Fuel Tax based on gasoline purchases. Since EVs are heavier, they wear out the road faster. States will be coming up with other methods of taxing EV owners to contribute to road maintenance. In IL it costs more to license an EV vehicle than a ICE vehicle.
I don't have an EV or Hybrid. My wife likes convertibles and there are no EV convertibles available yet. I have an SUV. It was not available as a hybrid. On other vehicles the cost delta between the Hybird version and the regular version didn't cost out well. We use it to tow a boat, so we need something with towing capacity. I know that some EVs have towing capability, but it really reduces range.
A Model 3 is the same weight as a BMW 3 series:
https://www.truecar.com/compare/bmw-3-series-vs-tesla-model-3/
Are you saying we should ban all BMW's because they wear out the roads faster?
Re: Hydrogen and fuel cells, if they ever get to be cheaper and easier than regular gas, I'm all for it. But for now they are MUCH more expensive:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=257940)
And running EV's is WAY cheaper than gas, right now, today. In fact, here's my own personal experience. I've driven right at 2000 miles in my Tesla so far. I charge it at 10 cents per KWh. So that means I've paid $61 to go 2000 miles.
How does that stack up against my last car, an Acura MDX? Well, let's do some math to find out. The MDX has 19mpg city and 25mpg highway. Lets take the average, 22mpg. Divide that into 2000 miles:
2000/22 = 90.9 gallons
So to drive 2000 miles, my old MDX would have required about 91 gallons of gasoline. How much would that cost? If I look at the average cost of gas in CO right now, it's just over $4. So we'll round down to $4 to be conservative:
90.9 x $4 = $363
So my old gas car would have cost me $363 while my new EV only cost me $61. That's a savings of $203. And if we divide out the 2 costs we can see just how much cheaper electricity is vs gas:
$363/$61 = 5.9
That means driving a gas car is almost 6x more expensive than driving an EV. Today.
And bringing it back to hydrogen, we saw on the graph above that hydrogen, today (and pretty much all history) has been 3x more expensive than gas. Which makes hydrogen 18x more expensive than electricity, today. I mean, it would be nice if hydrogen could miraculously drop in price by 20x but it doesn't seem likely based on the data and prior trends.
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Personally, I'd never buy a Tesla because Elon.
EVs are definitely the way forward, but imo the tech isn't there for large scale adaption. The initial investment is currently too high in terms of energy and materials unless you're looking at a short-range city car or bike. This is why hybrids are the best current solution, they don't need huge batteries. When battery tech provides several times the energy density it does now, they will be more feasible.
For now, Toyota is right and hybrids are the best solution. The issue is their own Prius, introduced in 1997 as a very ugly and slow car, it tarnished the image of hybrids. If Toyota had started out with the same philosophy on the Prius as the current model... it combines great looks and good performance with excellent efficiency... hybrids would be much more popular. Elon somehow made EVs desirable with the model-S, imo it's ugly and ridiculously heavy and expensive, but because he made them with powerful motors they were accepted. Elon, for all his issues, realized that cars are emotional purchases and marketed his EVs accordingly and very successfully. The new Prius looks great, but it took Toyota 25 years to understand the Prius' largest issue was simply due to a lack of style and power. Sure, many don't care, but the Prius ostracized auto enthusiasts in a way Tesla never did.
As far as weight the lowest end Tesla M3 is the only one with a reasonable weight, M3P is 4250 lbs, and on average Teslas weigh a lot more than ICE. Teslas in general have far too large a battery and motor to have any sort of environmental cred, they are luxury vehicles for affluent folks who feel less guilty buying EV vs ICE.
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Well, I could talk in detail about how the grid is actually fairly robust and not fragile and how the transition is going to be even better/easier/cheaper than most people think it will be, there's already really good data on all of that and it's all moving in a positive direction.
But, based on the bolded part above, your mind is already made up and won't be changed regardless of the actual facts. So, I won't bother.
The grid would need a total re-wire if everyone owned EV's and wanted to charge in their homes. Not practical. People who live in condos/apartments can't charge either. The amount of power required to fast charge a car is far more than the current wiring in housing development can handle. This issue is not well understood by the average citizen
Again, the issue of logistics with trucking is being ignored. The trucking industry simply will not be able to comply.
Hydrogen can be made in mass quantities with the appropriate investments in Nuclear power, which has to happen. Pushing EVs with conventional power sources or wind/solar is not logical or practical. the meme of coal rail cars with the caption "EV fuel" is sadly a bit too accurate. Solar panels are yet another long term environmental problem waiting to happen.
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Personally, I'd never buy a Tesla because Elon.
EVs are definitely the way forward, but imo the tech isn't there for large scale adaption. The initial investment is currently too high in terms of energy and materials unless you're looking at a short-range city car or bike. This is why hybrids are the best current solution, they don't need huge batteries. When battery tech provides several times the energy density it does now, they will be more feasible.
For now, Toyota is right and hybrids are the best solution. The issue is their own Prius, introduced in 1997 as a very ugly and slow car, it tarnished the image of hybrids. If Toyota had started out with the same philosophy on the Prius as the current model... it combines great looks and good performance with excellent efficiency... hybrids would be much more popular. Elon somehow made EVs desirable with the model-S, imo it's ugly and ridiculously heavy and expensive, but because he made them with powerful motors they were accepted. Elon, for all his issues, realized that cars are emotional purchases and marketed his EVs accordingly and very successfully. The new Prius looks great, but it took Toyota 25 years to understand the Prius' largest issue was simply due to a lack of style and power. Sure, many don't care, but the Prius ostracized auto enthusiasts in a way Tesla never did.
As far as weight the lowest end Tesla M3 is the only one with a reasonable weight, M3P is 4250 lbs, and on average Teslas weigh a lot more than ICE. Teslas in general have far too large a battery and motor to have any sort of environmental cred, they are luxury vehicles for affluent folks who feel less guilty buying EV vs ICE.
You won't buy an EV because you don't like a person? That's a really non-rational line of thinking. From what I understand, the prior leader of Toyota (the grandson of the founder) was a real dick too, does that mean I should never buy a Toyota? I mean if you don't like Elon Musk fine but its a stupid reason.
I agree with you, Hybrids are better than pure gas cars. But they are not better than pure EV's for the reasons I've been laboriously pointing out. Have you not been reading anything I've posted about current battery sourcing and the localization of supply chains? I've posted about it in detail in the previous posts.
Hybrids are more efficient than gas cars but not nearly as efficient as EV's, and you can easily see that in their MPG ratings. A typical gas car has a MPG between 20 and 30. A hybrid between 40 and 50. My model y (a big ass SUV) has an MPG rating of well over 100. Clearly pure EVs are WAY more efficient. If you actually want to use energy wisely, a pure EV is over 2x better than a hybrid, which itself is about 2x better than a regular gas car.
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The grid would need a total re-wire if everyone owned EV's and wanted to charge in their homes. Not practical. People who live in condos/apartments can't charge either. The amount of power required to fast charge a car is far more than the current wiring in housing development can handle. This issue is not well understood by the average citizen
Again, the issue of logistics with trucking is being ignored. The trucking industry simply will not be able to comply.
Hydrogen can be made in mass quantities with the appropriate investments in Nuclear power, which has to happen. Pushing EVs with conventional power sources or wind/solar is not logical or practical. the meme of coal rail cars with the caption "EV fuel" is sadly a bit too accurate. Solar panels are yet another long term environmental problem waiting to happen.
Once again, I agree with you that pure BEV's are not going to be a good fit for everyone. I've stated several times that they really only make sense if you have a garage and can put in a charger. What are you even arguing about here?
If we can do hydrogen cheap, great. I posted about that already. Right now it's 3x more expensive than gas and 18x more expensive than pure electric, as I showed in the math in my previous post. Are you not reading any of that?
Also, homes do not need a complete re-wire to charge an EV. Any home that has a washer/dryer already has the circuitry needed to charge an EV. It's called level 2 charging, it's only 220v and 60amps which the large, large majority of homes already have. It charges at a rate of 40 miles per hour being plugged in. No re-wiring needed. I know this from personal experience because I have a home built in 1956 and it was re-wired in the 90's to put in a washing machine and a dryer. I just ran a line from the circuit box to my garage. Easy peasy.
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Ask the chick from "Charmed". She tried to call Elon a "Nazi" because she didn't like him buying Twitter. She said she's gonna buy a VW.
:duh:
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=232703)
ICE all the way until I purchase E-Ray
Don P
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Don,
I'd not heard of the E-Ray till now. Just checked it out - man that thing looks badass :thumb:
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Ask the chick from "Charmed". She tried to call Elon a "Nazi" because she didn't like him buying Twitter. She said she's gonna buy a VW.
:duh:
Oh the irony. :lol:
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Currently Roadwork is funded via Motor Fuel Tax based on gasoline purchases. Since EVs are heavier, they wear out the road faster. States will be coming up with other methods of taxing EV owners to contribute to road maintenance. In IL it costs more to license an EV vehicle than a ICE vehicle.
Depending on the source and probably location too, only 18 to 26% of gasoline taxes pay for road infrastructure.
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You won't buy an EV because you don't like a person? That's a really non-rational line of thinking. From what I understand, the prior leader of Toyota (the grandson of the founder) was a real dick too, does that mean I should never buy a Toyota? I mean if you don't like Elon Musk fine but its a stupid reason.
I agree with you, Hybrids are better than pure gas cars. But they are not better than pure EV's for the reasons I've been laboriously pointing out. Have you not been reading anything I've posted about current battery sourcing and the localization of supply chains? I've posted about it in detail in the previous posts.
Hybrids are more efficient than gas cars but not nearly as efficient as EV's, and you can easily see that in their MPG ratings. A typical gas car has a MPG between 20 and 30. A hybrid between 40 and 50. My model y (a big ass SUV) has an MPG rating of well over 100. Clearly pure EVs are WAY more efficient. If you actually want to use energy wisely, a pure EV is over 2x better than a hybrid, which itself is about 2x better than a regular gas car.
No, I won't buy a TESLA because of Elon. I'd buy an EV from a different company. Elon crossed the line with me, he gives a platform to people who are evil, anti-American, and just plain unintelligent imo. My goals also don't align, populating Mars is the stupidest thing I've ever heard given current tech. There are far better ways to help humanity.
The fact you actually believe all the info you posted is the real issue here. Not saying all of it is off, but the base assumptions used to make many of these claims are biased.
Bias is what this comes down to, cars are so emotional most people can't be impartial. The base assumptions used to calculate EVs are 2x more efficient vs hybrids is pure garbage. Toyota agrees with this view, imo they are absolutely correct. Who do you believe? Your questionable sources, including Tesla, who has a stake in selling pure EVs, or Toyota, one of the greatest engineering and manufacturing forces the world has ever seen, who is a pioneer of EV tech and introduced the hybrid Prius 26 years ago? A company who could have a ton of EVs on the market right now if it was actually true that EVs are indeed more efficient and practical vs hybrids. But they don't and are very clear about why. Sorry, but they are right and you and the sources you quoted are wrong.
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Also, homes do not need a complete re-wire to charge an EV. Any home that has a washer/dryer already has the circuitry needed to charge an EV. It's called level 2 charging, it's only 220v and 60amps which the large, large majority of homes already have. It charges at a rate of 40 miles per hour being plugged in. No re-wiring needed. I know this from personal experience because I have a home built in 1956 and it was re-wired in the 90's to put in a washing machine and a dryer. I just ran a line from the circuit box to my garage. Easy peasy.
I was referring to the amount of current to conduct a "fast charge". There are studies out that state that the grid would need to be re-done to support this on a mass scale. Not to mention the generation of the extra power required. Hope that clears the issue up.
My major issue is the government trying to force EVs on everyone. The majority of the population is against the mandate, and I suspect once the Washington DC powers change, there will be changes to the mandates. I'm all for letting the free market decide what consumers want.
I'm painfully aware of the Hydrogen arguments. This is another are where if the free market didn't have so much government interference, Nuclear power could be provided at a much lower cost to the public. This would translate to the eventual coast of producing Hydrogen to come down. We are talking longer term, over 10 to 20 years.
Then there is still the issue with trucking. Mandating EV trucking is a disaster waiting to happen.
This is a more complex issue than the average person realizes.
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I was referring to the amount of current to conduct a "fast charge". There are studies out that state that the grid would need to be re-done to support this on a mass scale. Not to mention the generation of the extra power required. Hope that clears the issue up.
My major issue is the government trying to force EVs on everyone. The majority of the population is against the mandate, and I suspect once the Washington DC powers change, there will be changes to the mandates. I'm all for letting the free market decide what consumers want.
I'm painfully aware of the Hydrogen arguments. This is another are where if the free market didn't have so much government interference, Nuclear power could be provided at a much lower cost to the public. This would translate to the eventual coast of producing Hydrogen to come down. We are talking longer term, over 10 to 20 years.
Then there is still the issue with trucking. Mandating EV trucking is a disaster waiting to happen.
This is a more complex issue than the average person realizes.
Well, the good news is that we agree, I am much more of a market forces type person. That's why (if you've noticed) everything I've pointed out is from a cost, efficiency, resources standpoint. I firmly believe that if you build something that is better, cheaper and more convenient, then the market will take care of it, and no need for the government to actually do anything.
Actually this conversation reminds me of something Musk said about subsidies a while back (he agrees with us on this point too):
“Honestly, I would just can this whole bill,” Musk said late Monday during The Wall Street Journal’s CEO Council Summit. “Don’t pass it, that’s my recommendation.” Taken from a CNBC article - https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/07/elon-musk-speaks-out-against-biden-social-spending-and-climate-bill.html
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No, I won't buy a TESLA because of Elon. I'd buy an EV from a different company. Elon crossed the line with me, he gives a platform to people who are evil, anti-American, and just plain unintelligent imo. My goals also don't align, populating Mars is the stupidest thing I've ever heard given current tech. There are far better ways to help humanity.
The fact you actually believe all the info you posted is the real issue here. Not saying all of it is off, but the base assumptions used to make many of these claims are biased.
Bias is what this comes down to, cars are so emotional most people can't be impartial. The base assumptions used to calculate EVs are 2x more efficient vs hybrids is pure garbage. Toyota agrees with this view, imo they are absolutely correct. Who do you believe? Your questionable sources, including Tesla, who has a stake in selling pure EVs, or Toyota, one of the greatest engineering and manufacturing forces the world has ever seen, who is a pioneer of EV tech and introduced the hybrid Prius 26 years ago? A company who could have a ton of EVs on the market right now if it was actually true that EVs are indeed more efficient and practical vs hybrids. But they don't and are very clear about why. Sorry, but they are right and you and the sources you quoted are wrong.
You can buy a Toyota if you want, you seem to be a fanboy of them. They make good hybrids. But the real reason (IMO) that Japan is hedging their bets and not going all-in on EV's is that if they try to scale up BEVs right now the only country currently capable of supplying that demand is China. Japan and China are bitter, bitter enemies and the whole Japanese car industry is (quite wisely) refusing to put themselves under China's thumb.
If Japan suddenly discovered massive deposits of EV battery materials (like we have here in the US this past year), then I guarantee you that Japan's tune would change drastically.
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You can buy a Toyota if you want, you seem to be a fanboy of them. They make good hybrids. But the real reason (IMO) that Japan is hedging their bets and not going all-in on EV's is that if they try to scale up BEVs right now the only country currently capable of supplying that demand is China. Japan and China are bitter, bitter enemies and the whole Japanese car industry is (quite wisely) refusing to put themselves under China's thumb.
If Japan suddenly discovered massive deposits of EV battery materials (like we have here in the US this past year), then I guarantee you that Japan's tune would change drastically.
I don't own a Toyota and mostly dislike their cars. Their trucks suck compared to GM and Ford imo. Their V8 gets horrific fuel economy, can't believe anyone buys them. The Tacoma has nothing in it to justify it over buying a full size GM truck. The GR86 is a very good car with a crappy Subaru motor, if they put the Turbo-3 in it I may buy one as nothing handles like an 86. I do like the new Prius and would consider one as a DD, but not right now with today's inflated car market and interest rates.
If you think the REAL reason Toyota isn't making more EVs is because of China, then I'm not sure what to say, that seems like living in conspiracy theory fantasy land.
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The USA and Russia kind of ended our cold war a decade ago. China and Japan never have. This is just plain old history, you can research it yourself if you want.
Imagine if in the 80's the USA ran out of oil and had to start buying it from Russia. I promise you, we'd have done everything in our power to not become energy dependent upon our own bitter enemy. Japan is no different now.
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But I am curious about the map your friend is referring to. Let me know.
Here's the deal:
A guy paid to put a supercharger at his house. It showed up on the Tesla map (and possibly showing up on MapQuest and the like). Instead of being a decent human being, he's one of those YouTubers/social media A-holes. He leaves it on the Tesla map in order to have people drive onto his property so he can get views (and money) over it (so, not sure how long this was going on).
People are stupid. But, I hate these guys with a passion.
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Here's the deal:
A guy paid to put a supercharger at his house. It showed up on the Tesla map (and possibly showing up on MapQuest and the like). Instead of being a decent human being, he's one of those YouTubers/social media A-holes. He leaves it on the Tesla map in order to have people drive onto his property so he can get views (and money) over it (so, not sure how long this was going on).
People are stupid. But, I hate these guys with a passion.
Interesting. What's his youtube channel?
PS, I also hate 'influencers'. What a waste.
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Interesting. What's his youtube channel?
PS, I also hate 'influencers'. What a waste.
They are not "influencers". They are bullies. Let's not give them any clicks or revenue.
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The last paragraph... 8)
https://www.businessinsider.com/auto-executives-coming-clean-evs-arent-working-2023-10
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The last paragraph... 8)
https://www.businessinsider.com/auto-executives-coming-clean-evs-arent-working-2023-10
You're right, GM, Toyota and Ford seem to suck at making compelling EV's and having that generate demand/sales. However, Tesla seems to have figured it out:
(https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/8547.jpeg)
This year they are on track to deliver 1.8 million vehicles. Onwards and upwards!
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And Tesla was not invited to the EV summit at The White House. When asked why the Secretary of Transportation replied “I don’t know.”
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Although Tesla's profits and projected profits are "taking a hit". :nono:
There are so many factors involved here, some of which have big unknowns (e.g., battery availability to meet demand). Nevertheless, the world now runs on electricity, and most power generating and/or recovery ("clean" or "dirty") is aimed at producing electricity. Just getting rid of all the underground fuel tanks at gas stations around the world could result in huge environmental improvements, not even considering the reduction in production and transportation of fossil fuels. Discussions about the cost and environmental impacts of producing more electricity in general are a separate topic IMHO.
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And Tesla was not invited to the EV summit at The White House. When asked why the Secretary of Transportation replied “I don’t know.”
Even though the likely answer is obvious and the reason I personally am unlikely to buy a Tesla... :lol:
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Come on. You're a bunch of smart guys. You know that change doesn't come without bumps. Just because EV's aren't being swept up by everyone all the time, is not a predictor of the future. Many people resist new stuff because they have personal as well as vested interests in not changing. Widespread adoption of anything will always be resisted whether it's good or bad.
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Maybe the big 3 are finally admitting that they just aren't going to catch Tesla (at least in the short term). Here's how things stand right now in the USA:
(https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2023/09/Screenshot-2023-09-28-at-2.45.41-PM.jpg?quality=82&strip=all)
So if Tesla is so dominant, why are they so aggressive with their price cuts and acting like they are in a fight for their lives (even cutting margins to get prices lower) it's because of BYD and the Chinese market, which is even bigger and much more competitive than the USA for Hybrids and BEVs.
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And Tesla was not invited to the EV summit at The White House. When asked why the Secretary of Transportation replied “I don’t know.”
If people really cared having electric vehicles, you would go all out. Excluding Tesla is politically motivated. It's picking winners and losers.
A dumb actress doing that is stupid, and politicians doing that is evil.
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If people really cared having electric vehicles, you would go all out. Excluding Tesla is politically motivated. It's picking winners and losers.
A dumb actress doing that is stupid, and politicians doing that is evil.
I think we are not supposed to talk politics so I won't say anything specific one way or the other. But stepping back a bit and just observing history it's clear that the playing field in the US has always been stacked against Tesla (and EV's in general). The entrenched businesses (Oil & Gas as well as automotive) have used their considerable influence to reduce EV adoption. For obvious reasons.
In the business culture, you can easily see it in tons of newspaper articles that are heavily biased against Tesla. If you take a look at Tesla's actual success, it's a remarkable achievement for an American auto company to get to this level of success, from scratch. That should be celebrated as something America is leading the world in. But it's not. You only ever hear about 'problems' with Tesla from the media. It's clearly an attempt to slow down Tesla (and by extension, EV adoption) by manipulating the media.
Now, normally I am not a 'media cannot be trusted' type of person. I wouldn't know, because I stopped reading any and all news about 8 years ago because even back then that stuff was toxic. When I did start to read stuff about the auto industry I was really shocked that Tesla wasn't celebrated. Hell, not just weren't celebrated, but dumped on at every opportunity. Then I looked at who paid for the most ads with traditional media. Ahhhhh, now it makes sense.
If people don't like Tesla because of stuff they've read in the media, I'm sorry but you are being manipulated and you fell for it.
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Although Tesla's profits and projected profits are "taking a hit". :nono:
There are so many factors involved here, some of which have big unknowns (e.g., battery availability to meet demand). Nevertheless, the world now runs on electricity, and most power generating and/or recovery ("clean" or "dirty") is aimed at producing electricity. Just getting rid of all the underground fuel tanks at gas stations around the world could result in huge environmental improvements, not even considering the reduction in production and transportation of fossil fuels. Discussions about the cost and environmental impacts of producing more electricity in general are a separate topic IMHO.
A tank in a ground isn't the problem. It's the dirty mining of battery materials, container shipping it all over the word to be processed, and the future disposal of expended batteries.
There are simple things to save the environment:
1. Don't make any unnecessary trips. Don't go to the mall just for the sake of going to the mall. Go to the mall because you have a specific item you need to buy. That does make me wonder if all those Amazon delivery trucks is really good for the environment. Or, if that automatic engine shut off when you stop at a light does any good. A hybrid makes more sense that electric in a traffic jam. Inch forward on battery power.
2. Recycle. Not just small items like plastic and aluminium. I don't know how many times I see acceptable furniture being thrown away, that a poor family could use. But, no. We throw away everything. That includes clothes that don't fit you. Give it to a church, even if you don't go to church.
3. Before anybody mentions any type public transportation, it needs to be cheaper, more reliable, expanded, and SAFER.
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A tank in a ground isn't the problem. It's the dirty mining of battery materials, container shipping it all over the word to be processed, and the future disposal of expended batteries.
There are simple things to save the environment:
1. Don't make any unnecessary trips. Don't go to the mall just for the sake of going to the mall. Go to the mall because you have a specific item you need to buy. That does make me wonder if all those Amazon delivery trucks is really good for the environment. Or, if that automatic engine shut off when you stop at a light does any good. A hybrid makes more sense that electric in a traffic jam. Inch forward on battery power.
2. Recycle. Not just small items like plastic and aluminium. I don't know how many times I see acceptable furniture being thrown away, that a poor family could use. But, no. We throw away everything. That includes clothes that don't fit you. Give it to a church, even if you don't go to church.
3. Before anybody mentions any type public transportation, it needs to be cheaper, more reliable, expanded, and SAFER.
I hope it's OK if I address each of the points you bring up individually. Some were true in the past but not any more.
Re: mining of battery materials - it's not any more dirty than mining pretty much everything else we make. Also, nowadays the batteries in EV's are highly recyclable, between 80 and 90% - https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/are-electric-car-batteries-recyclable
Re: electric cars in a traffic jam, it's actually MUCH better to be in an EV in a traffic jam. A gas or hybrid can only run the engine for a few hours before it runs out of gas, even starting from a full tank. An EV that's not moving (or just inching along) can run the environmental controls for several days. You can see this for yourself with people on youtube going camping in their Teslas and running the heater several nights in a row to keep them warm.
All the rest of your points - I completely agree with you!
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EV is here to stay (whether you agree or not) and Tesla is "too big to fail." They've always been heavily supported by the US government and various state governments. Not political, just facts:
02/15/2023 -- "The White House on Wednesday announced that Tesla, with the support of $7.5 billion in government subsidies, will open a portion of its U.S. Supercharger and Destination Charger network to non-Tesla EVs."
https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/tesla-takes-biden-7-5b-subsidy-agrees-open-charging-network-white-house-says
https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/tesla-inc
SpaceX, too: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/elon-musks-spacex-tesla-far-170500028.html#:~:text=Notably%2C%20the%20auto%20company%20received,vehicles%20by%20%244%2C000%20to%20%247%2C500.
If you think Tesla is losing money by slashing prices, think again.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-taps-biden-tax-credits-offset-ev-price-cuts-2023-07-21/
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If people really cared having electric vehicles, you would go all out. Excluding Tesla is politically motivated. It's picking winners and losers.
A dumb actress doing that is stupid, and politicians doing that is evil.
No, not when the guy in charge has picked sides and is doing all they can to promote one of them just to spite the other. Elon is a complete idiot for getting into politics, but much of what he does is idiotic. Populating Mars? Really? I also give him a lot of credit and admire him for what he's accomplished too, but he's his own worst enemy.
The fact the US gov't is giving out tax credits so rich folks can buy EVs is one of the worst things about the whole deal. You can credit the gov't for much of Tesla's success despite the recent snub.
Lol @Tyson you completely missed the point of the article I posted. It's not all about Tesla all the time. Nobody is recycling EV batteries either. Cobalt is especially bad as far as mining, it's mostly slave and child labor there. Rare earths also take up incredible amount of space and water. Mining this stuff IS much worse than many other things. Interesting you're always on the pro-EV everything and pro-Tesla side after buying a Tesla. Biased much? :lol: You can't seem to see or even consider any other POV.
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I think we are not supposed to talk politics so I won't say anything specific one way or the other. But stepping back a bit and just observing history it's clear that the playing field in the US has always been stacked against Tesla (and EV's in general). The entrenched businesses (Oil & Gas as well as automotive) have used their considerable influence to reduce EV adoption. For obvious reasons.
In the business culture, you can easily see it in tons of newspaper articles that are heavily biased against Tesla. If you take a look at Tesla's actual success, it's a remarkable achievement for an American auto company to get to this level of success, from scratch. That should be celebrated as something America is leading the world in. But it's not. You only ever hear about 'problems' with Tesla from the media. It's clearly an attempt to slow down Tesla (and by extension, EV adoption) by manipulating the media.
Now, normally I am not a 'media cannot be trusted' type of person. I wouldn't know, because I stopped reading any and all news about 8 years ago because even back then that stuff was toxic. When I did start to read stuff about the auto industry I was really shocked that Tesla wasn't celebrated. Hell, not just weren't celebrated, but dumped on at every opportunity. Then I looked at who paid for the most ads with traditional media. Ahhhhh, now it makes sense.
If people don't like Tesla because of stuff they've read in the media, I'm sorry but you are being manipulated and you fell for it.
The only things I will fault Elon on is paying too much for Twitter, and get involved with Grimes. I knew that relationship wasn't going to last. I like some of her music, but I wouldn't knock her up fort it!
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No, not when the guy in charge has picked sides and is doing all they can to promote one of them just to spite the other. Elon is a complete idiot for getting into politics, but much of what he does is idiotic. Populating Mars? Really? I also give him a lot of credit and admire him for what he's accomplished too, but he's his own worst enemy.
The fact the US gov't is giving out tax credits so rich folks can buy EVs is one of the worst things about the whole deal. You can credit the gov't for much of Tesla's success despite the recent snub.
Lol @Tyson you completely missed the point of the article I posted. It's not all about Tesla all the time. Nobody is recycling EV batteries either. Cobalt is especially bad as far as mining, it's mostly slave and child labor there. Rare earths also take up incredible amount of space and water. Mining this stuff IS much worse than many other things. Interesting you're always on the pro-EV everything and pro-Tesla side after buying a Tesla. Biased much? :lol: You can't seem to see or even consider any other POV.
Actually you are wrong, once again. Batteries are being recycled, by businesses, for profit, already:
https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/
The only hiccup they are experiencing is the EV batteries are lasting MUCH LONGER than they originally anticpated so there's less to recycle at the moment. But it is happening and it is scaling up quickly.
Re: child labor, I assume you are talking about cobalt? If so, you are fine to criticize batteries for containing cobalt. Personally I don't care as most of the things we make have to be dug up and most of it is unhealthy. I am just being consistent. I care more about having a modern lifestyle than I care about the cost. That's true of oil, gas, steel, lithium, copper, all of it. You might cry for cobalt miners but if you do that then you need to cry about ALL mining. Otherwise you are simply a hypocrite.
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I hope it's OK if I address each of the points you bring up individually. Some were true in the past but not any more.
Re: mining of battery materials - it's not any more dirty than mining pretty much everything else we make. Also, nowadays the batteries in EV's are highly recyclable, between 80 and 90% - https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/are-electric-car-batteries-recyclable
Re: electric cars in a traffic jam, it's actually MUCH better to be in an EV in a traffic jam. A gas or hybrid can only run the engine for a few hours before it runs out of gas, even starting from a full tank. An EV that's not moving (or just inching along) can run the environmental controls for several days. You can see this for yourself with people on youtube going camping in their Teslas and running the heater several nights in a row to keep them warm.
All the rest of your points - I completely agree with you!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F04MXepYiBs
I always refer back to this.
I agree with Jeremy Clarkson. It isn't what you drive. It's how you drive. If you drive like a maniac, it is bad for the environment as well as unsafe.
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And to follow up my point, Dave, if you are so against cobalt mining, then here are the things you must also be against (not just EV's), because it's used in a LOT of stuff. Again, you don't get to pick and choose. If you don't want to be a hypocrite, you must come out against ALL of these things that cobalt gives us:
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/c530ed_9bb7997f4de840699951a41ddf34f1f5~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_720,h_472,al_c,lg_1,q_80,enc_auto/c530ed_9bb7997f4de840699951a41ddf34f1f5~mv2.jpg)
Even if we ELIMINATED all battery mining, that doesn't even get us halfway there to eliminating the mining those poor children are doing that you are so concerned about.
Oh and another thing that just occurred to me. You know what Cobalt is ALSO used in? Refining gasoline. It's used as a catalyst for crude oil. Yep, so if you are against Cobalt mining than you need to give up gasoline, too.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F04MXepYiBs
I always refer back to this.
I agree with Jeremy Clarkson. It isn't what you drive. It's how you drive. If you drive like a maniac, it is bad for the environment as well as unsafe.
Dude, that video is 8 years old. Tech has moved on since then. I've been posting about actual 'gas' mileage I am getting right now, today with current tech. 132 miles per gallon. And I only sometimes drive like an idiot :P
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Actually you are wrong, once again. Batteries are being recycled, by businesses, for profit, already:
https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/
The only hiccup they are experiencing is the EV batteries are lasting MUCH LONGER than they originally anticpated so there's less to recycle at the moment. But it is happening and it is scaling up quickly.
Re: child labor, I assume you are talking about cobalt? If so, you are fine to criticize batteries for containing cobalt. Personally I don't care as most of the things we make have to be dug up and most of it is unhealthy. I am just being consistent. I care more about having a modern lifestyle than I care about the cost. That's true of oil, gas, steel, lithium, copper, all of it. You might cry for cobalt miners but if you do that then you need to cry about ALL mining. Otherwise you are simply a hypocrite.
Lol, you are totally clueless. Calling me a hypocrite too... :lol: Get a grip, man! You are so biased you can't even take a minute to look up the horrors of cobalt mining. :duh:
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893248/red-cobalt-congo-drc-mining-siddharth-kara
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/ev-cobalt-mines-congo/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelposner/2023/02/09/as-demand-soars-for-cobalt-used-in-electric-car-batteries-heres-what-companies-need-to-do-in-the-democratic-republic-of-congo/?sh=c5dc0116471a
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Lol, you are totally clueless. Calling me a hypocrite too... :lol: Get a grip, man! You are so biased you can't even take a minute to look up the horrors of cobalt mining. :duh:
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893248/red-cobalt-congo-drc-mining-siddharth-kara
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/ev-cobalt-mines-congo/
I'll give up my EV after you give up your computer, phone, tires on your car, magnets in your speakers and steel used for making your car. ALL of it involves cobalt. If you want to say "no wait, I like those other things and want to keep them but EV's are bad because of Cobalt". Well, I'm sorry that makes you a hypocrite.
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Dude, that video is 8 years old. Tech has moved on since then. I've been posting about actual 'gas' mileage I am getting right now, today with current tech. 132 miles per gallon. And I only sometimes drive like an idiot :P
It still holds true.
I drive normal. I drive slightly above the speed limit (under 80 in a 70) on long distance Interstates runs, and i still get passed like I was sitting still.
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It still holds true.
I drive normal. I drive slightly above the speed limit (under 80 in a 70) on long distance Interstates runs, and i still get passed like I was sitting still.
Yep, you drive like I do.
Driving like that in my old Acura MDX got me 22 mpg. Now with the Model Y I get 132 MPG. That's why I'm saying the tech has moved on. The vehicles today are MUCH more efficient than the old Prius you linked to.
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Now with the Model Y I get 132 MPG.
Sure you do. :lol:
I'll give up my EV after you give up your computer, phone, tires on your car, magnets in your speakers and steel used for making your car. ALL of it involves cobalt. If you want to say "no wait, I like those other things and want to keep them but EV's are bad because of Cobalt". Well, I'm sorry that makes you a hypocrite.
It's a question of QUANTITY. Of course you can't understand nuance like that, it doesn't serve to reinforce your beliefs.
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Sure you do. :lol:
It's a question of QUANTITY. Of course you can't understand nuance like that, it doesn't serve to reinforce your beliefs.
Did you not see the graph I posted above? Not even half of the cobalt use is batteries. The majority of it is for other stuff. Again, if you actually care about the miners you would start boycotting everything that uses cobalt. Again BATTERIES ARE A MINORITY.
But, there's even better news than that. There's a new battery chemistry that doesn't use cobalt at all - LFP batteries. Even though it's new it's already jumped up to over 30% of all EV's. If you want to put your money where your mouth is, just buy an LFP EV.
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I'll give up my EV after you give up your computer, phone, tires on your car, magnets in your speakers and steel used for making your car. ALL of it involves cobalt. If you want to say "no wait, I like those other things and want to keep them but EV's are bad because of Cobalt". Well, I'm sorry that makes you a hypocrite.
I am using old technology: DDR2 motherboards and SATA hard drives I had laying around. So, let's not act like some of us are buying new iPhones every year.
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I am using old technology: DDR2 motherboards and SATA hard drives I had laying around. So, let's not act like some of us are buying new iPhones every year.
Then, like I said just buy an LFP powered vehicle, they are cobalt free.
Personally I do cycle through laptops and iphones pretty regularly so I had already accepted that my purchases fund some not-great mining practices re: cobalt. Also, cobalt is used for refining gasoline. So even if I'd bought another ICE vehicle, I'd still have to deal with cobalt being used to fuel them.
Actually I shouldn't say "just buy an LFP powered vehicle". IMO you should be able to buy whatever vehicle you want, for whatever reason you want. For me, an EV is the best option but for others it's not. And that shouldn't be forced.
Also IMO, the only way EV's will come to fully replace ICE cars is when they are actually better for everyone. Till then, they are better for some people but not for everyone and that's OK.
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Sure you do. :lol:
If you had actually read my previous posts, you would already know that. Here's the link to the part in this very thread where I work through the math using my car and my actual charging costs:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=187127.msg1964028#msg1964028
Here's the relevant bits:
In fact, here's my own personal experience. I've driven right at 2000 miles in my Tesla so far. I charge it at 10 cents per KWh. So that means I've paid $61 to go 2000 miles.
How does that stack up against my last car, an Acura MDX? Well, let's do some math to find out. The MDX has 19mpg city and 25mpg highway. Lets take the average, 22mpg. Divide that into 2000 miles:
2000/22 = 90.9 gallons
So to drive 2000 miles, my old MDX would have required about 91 gallons of gasoline. How much would that cost? If I look at the average cost of gas in CO right now, it's just over $4. So we'll round down to $4 to be conservative:
90.9 x $4 = $363
So my old gas car would have cost me $363 while my new EV only cost me $61. That's a savings of $203. And if we divide out the 2 costs we can see just how much cheaper electricity is vs gas:
$363/$61 = 5.9
That means driving a gas car is almost 6x more expensive than driving an EV. Today.
To round out the math re: mpg, just multiply my old Acura's MGP times 5.9.
22mpg x 5.9 = 130mpg
So that's 130mpg on my new Model Y.
I mean, that's just math. You do understand math, right?
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After all these years, EV’s are still just glorified go karts primarily for urban use. I can see why city dwellers especially love them.
Current battery technology isn’t the answer and I won’t buy an EV until this changes. I know there’s a lot of battery technology being developed now that looks VERY promising. Maybe in 5-10 years it will be in production and used in all kinds of things, and eventually in cars ; Cars take longer because there’s always more red tape, but they’ll get there.
Car charging infrastructure has to be reliable and widespread. Right now it’s neither of these things. Take a road trip across the Midwest and you’ll quickly understand the lack of infrastructure.
Affordability of electric cars will continue to get better, so that whole argument is pointless.
I agree that hybrids are the best “transitional” solution for now (in general) and will be until the aforementioned factors are fully addressed.
With all that, I bought a 2023 Civic Type R back in February and have zero regrets. It could be my last fully ICE car, but we’ll see. Have fun folks! :eyebrows:
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RDavidson,
I think your objections are reasonable, much more so than some of the other things raised by others in this thread.
Hey, if you don't mind, let's play a game! Lets call it "Can I get there in my Tesla". Here's how it works - you tell me some random BFE town in the midwest, I'll put that into the Tesla routing map/app and see if I can get there only using Tesla chargers. Should be fun.
PS I've already been doing this myself. Last week I was thinking about where I went to college (San Angelo, TX) and how it was freaking in the middle of nowhere. I still remember driving from Bastrop (where I went to high school) and it was 4 hours straight of nothingness. I figured it would be a problem because there's not even many gas stations around in that part of the country.
But no, the app routed it out and got me there without any issues at all. I was impressed. So, I want to try it out some more, and this is a good opportunity. Let me know some place out in the boonies in your part of the country and I'll see how it does.
PSS, some places I've already tried - Carson City, Iowa (no problems), then moving west, Joshua Tree, CA middle of the desert, no problem, then moving south to Mexico City, Mexico again no problem. Then I tried Quebec, Canada, no problem. So far it's been really impressive. Those are the hardest places I could think of but I really want to challenge the system, so any place you can think, make it as hard as possible.
Thanks!
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I try to be a reasonable person who can think critically and not rely on the internet for the “answers,” but I am a human and flawed too. Hahaha!
Plug in Des Moines, IA to Rapid City, SD and see what it says. Factor-in the charging time too.
I consider ~8 hr road trips about the max I’m willing to drive without staying the night somewhere. So if I’m in an EV and I have to stay the night somewhere, then that totally negates my money saved on gas.
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And you are right, it does take longer. I plotted it in my standard Apple maps first and it's 8.5 hours:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=258071)
And then I plotted it out on the Tesla app and it gets you there no problem but longer, exactly 12 hours:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=258072)
You are also right that's there's a trade off - much cheaper to drive but takes longer. I feel like these are very reasonable points.
I'm glad we did this because it will help me when I go on longer road trips. I think one thing that will bring the times closer (for me) is that I will plan to charge the car while I eat (I don't like eating in my car while driving), so it will bring the times closer. But even that won't make it the same.
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Always good to see my information validated first hand. Thanks for doing that. :D
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Always good to see my information validated first hand. Thanks for doing that. :D
And it gives me one more use-case where EV's are not for everyone. Here's my list so far (with this just added).
Cases where EV's don't make sense:
1. You tow a lot, especially in the cold. Becuase EV's lose a lot of range when towing and even more range in the cold.
2. You can't charge at home. So EV's are good if you have a garage but not good if you live in a condo or apartment or your house only has street parking.
3. You travel long distances and value time more than money.
See, I'm not a mindless EV fanboy! :D. OK, enough talk about cars, time to go listen to some music on my upgraded LGK 2.0 speakers....
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OK, enough talk about cars, time to go listen to some music on my upgraded LGK 2.0 speakers....
Didn't you say you built them for your daughter? :lol:
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Didn't you say you built them for your daughter? :lol:
Shhhh, she's not here right now :P