New Klipsch RP-600M MK2

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Komoyuki

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New Klipsch RP-600M MK2
« on: 15 May 2022, 07:29 pm »
Apparently Klipsch have just released version 2 of their popular RP600M. Looking at Andrew Robinson's review, it seems the sound has changed a lot. Right of the bat I know it's impossible to say but will the GR research kit fits directly on the MK2 version? Apparently the crossover is also changed, other different cheesy parts?

From what I understand the upgrade kit from GR research was one of the very popular, as well as his videos. I would be really curious to hear Danny talk about this famous new version.

cheers

E-Zee

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Re: New Klipsch RP-600M MK2
« Reply #1 on: 15 May 2022, 10:03 pm »
I hadn't yet heard of the new RP-600m II so thanks for the heads up.   I couldn't help myself and looked into it.  The changes I see include small updates to the tweeter and driver,  a larger wave guide,  possibly better binding posts and jumpers, and improved cosmetic finishing.

I dont know if the "improved voice coil" on the driver is enough to change its basic response, or if it's just a step towards reducing distortion at peak levels. 

Biggest change will be additional $200 onto the MSRP, which I think will take a lot of the desire away from that speaker, and push that potential customer into something else, maybe an Elac uni-fi 2.0 or similar that compete in that same but slightly lower price bracket.

The immediate win for the broader market will be those that are able to pick up the original RP-600m at discounted prices.  The original RP-600m if discontinued from production will see immediate price reductions, then when inventory gets to the very end, there will be some who luck into picking them up really really cheap.

I would not assume that the GR-research upgrade for the original RP-600m will be a straight -up match for the RP-600m II.  I think that without measuring it, the safer bet would be that the RP-600m II would need to be measured and have its own upgrade kit, even though the differences might be small.

I do like the RP-600m very much.  I like the improvements on the version II.  However, as a very budget minded person, I can't get excited for the increased price.  My excitement is for those that get the original 600m at a good discount. 

Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: New Klipsch RP-600M MK2
« Reply #2 on: 16 May 2022, 12:26 am »
Apparently Klipsch have just released version 2 of their popular RP600M. Looking at Andrew Robinson's review, it seems the sound has changed a lot. Right of the bat I know it's impossible to say but will the GR research kit fits directly on the MK2 version? Apparently the crossover is also changed, other different cheesy parts?

From what I understand the upgrade kit from GR research was one of the very popular, as well as his videos. I would be really curious to hear Danny talk about this famous new version.

cheers

Very unlikely that the 600M we currently offer kit will work with the MK2.
Changes to the woofer's voice coil, along with the new size/shape of the horn will impact it's performance.

I believe the cabinet is also slightly deeper than the original which will affect performance of the woofer as well.

We'd need to have one sent in to know what its doing.

Danny Richie

Re: New Klipsch RP-600M MK2
« Reply #3 on: 17 May 2022, 12:38 pm »
Maybe they ordered one of our upgrade kits...  :lol:

Norman Tracy

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Re: New Klipsch RP-600M MK2
« Reply #4 on: 17 May 2022, 08:34 pm »
.....or got tired of Danny showing RP series frequency response plots that looked like roller coasters on YouTube?

Watching Andrew Robinson's review where he goes on and on and on about the RP Mk II vs Mk I sound moving more towards linear rigorously engineered designs like Revel I wondered. Is the GR YouTube channel the Toto pulling back the Wizard of Hope's curtain revealing a jagged FR plot not due to lazy, inattentive, or even incompetent design but rather as spice for a biting in-yo-face house sound? With YouTube searches being forever shamed into upping the design game to something in line with the market share enjoyed?




PatrickBrown

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Re: New Klipsch RP-600M MK2
« Reply #5 on: 18 May 2022, 03:12 pm »
I was thinking the same thing Norman, either they have watched and are making updates or they hired Danny to fix their designs;) of course with companies non disclosure policies im sure he couldn't comment on that. Either way nice to see the mainstream companies making improvements!

Mitsuman

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Re: New Klipsch RP-600M MK2
« Reply #6 on: 18 May 2022, 03:46 pm »
.....or got tired of Danny showing RP series frequency response plots that looked like roller coasters on YouTube?

Watching Andrew Robinson's review where he goes on and on and on about the RP Mk II vs Mk I sound moving more towards linear rigorously engineered designs like Revel I wondered. Is the GR YouTube channel the Toto pulling back the Wizard of Hope's curtain revealing a jagged FR plot not due to lazy, inattentive, or even incompetent design but rather as spice for a biting in-yo-face house sound? With YouTube searches being forever shamed into upping the design game to something in line with the market share enjoyed?




Is that a K-horn photoshopped in the pic?  :lol: :green: :lol:

Jon L

Re: New Klipsch RP-600M MK2
« Reply #7 on: 18 May 2022, 05:34 pm »
Good on Klipsch for at least working on improvements in their product line. 

However, from the review, it seems like Klipsch sacrificed some sensitivity to achieve more linear frequency response.  I expect to see a more complicated crossover with more parts than Mk I, with parts quality not better than Mk I.

Description of Mk II such as "less forward mids" and "less treble" is not necessarily "better" for the crowd who want to pair them with something like 300B SET to get a bit more treble energy and also to maximize that vocal-in-your-ear immediacy. 
So...in about 10 years, I expect a bidding war on eBayGon for 600 Mk I's for "True Klipsch Sound" enthusiasts  :D

Mitsuman

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Re: New Klipsch RP-600M MK2
« Reply #8 on: 18 May 2022, 06:06 pm »
Good on Klipsch for at least working on improvements in their product line. 

However, from the review, it seems like Klipsch sacrificed some sensitivity to achieve more linear frequency response.  I expect to see a more complicated crossover with more parts than Mk I, with parts quality not better than Mk I.

Description of Mk II such as "less forward mids" and "less treble" is not necessarily "better" for the crowd who want to pair them with something like 300B SET to get a bit more treble energy and also to maximize that vocal-in-your-ear immediacy. 
So...in about 10 years, I expect a bidding war on eBayGon for 600 Mk I's for "True Klipsch Sound" enthusiasts  :D

I have the older and smaller RP-150M and trust me they are anything but forward and bright. I've paired them with a Marantz 2270 and now with a Mitsubishi DA-A10DC fed by a Carver C1 preamp and they sounded equally nice. Good bass response for a small bookshelf, and not honky or shrill at all. I will be keeping them for a long time in this secondary system.

So I'm not sure what the 600M Mk I sound like, but Klipsch had already made major changes to their smaller bookshelf speakers quite a while before now. I personally couldn't rationalize paying $800.00 to find out how much different they sound than the older RP-150M or RP-160M.

And for reference, these are RF-35's in my main vinyl system so I'm familiar with the older Reference line. I also have a pair of RF-25's in my office system.


Tom Bombadil

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Re: New Klipsch RP-600M MK2
« Reply #9 on: 18 May 2022, 09:51 pm »
Good on Klipsch for at least working on improvements in their product line. 

However, from the review, it seems like Klipsch sacrificed some sensitivity to achieve more linear frequency response.  I expect to see a more complicated crossover with more parts than Mk I, with parts quality not better than Mk I.

It will be interesting to see what the sensitivity of the Mk II measures out to be.   As the Mk I measured at between 89.0 and 89.6 in three separate independent labs.  Is the new one going to measure at 88? 

Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: New Klipsch RP-600M MK2
« Reply #10 on: 18 May 2022, 10:24 pm »
Its listed at 94, down from 96db but that's often the peak, not it's average measured response, which tends to be high 88 range.

Danny Richie

Re: New Klipsch RP-600M MK2
« Reply #11 on: 19 May 2022, 03:04 pm »
Good on Klipsch for at least working on improvements in their product line. 

However, from the review, it seems like Klipsch sacrificed some sensitivity to achieve more linear frequency response.  I expect to see a more complicated crossover with more parts than Mk I, with parts quality not better than Mk I.

Description of Mk II such as "less forward mids" and "less treble" is not necessarily "better" for the crowd who want to pair them with something like 300B SET to get a bit more treble energy and also to maximize that vocal-in-your-ear immediacy. 
So...in about 10 years, I expect a bidding war on eBayGon for 600 Mk I's for "True Klipsch Sound" enthusiasts  :D

They were actually never anywhere near what they claimed them to be. Even the jacked up top end didn't reach the levels they claimed.

I balanced out the response to just below 90db, but that was where they were in the vocal region and below already.

See the before and after measurements at the bottom of the page: https://gr-research.com/product/klipsch-rp-600m-upgrade/

Norman Tracy

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Re: New Klipsch RP-600M MK2
« Reply #12 on: 19 May 2022, 08:42 pm »
Anytime someone claims a monitor with a 6.5" woofer in a 15 x 8 x 13 inch box delivers over 90dB sensitivity I just assume the measurement was made on a good day....running down hill.....with a tail wind....and a couple of shots of nitro.

The Mk II's spec sheet reads "SENSITIVITY* 94.5dB @ 2.83V / 1m*" the twice repeated asterisk being "*SPL at 1M, half-space anechoic with 2.83V input, in-room sensitivity". I think that half-space note is the downhill help. That's the equivalent of flush mounting the speaker into your wall so all output is constrained to the 180 degree forward arc.

Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: New Klipsch RP-600M MK2
« Reply #13 on: 19 May 2022, 10:24 pm »
Klipsch says their large RF7 III towers are 100dB sensitive, but that like one peak in the 5KHz range of the tweeter.
It's average is closer to 95-97db.

I spent some time designing a network for it while Danny was on his trip, and the average came to 95db except for the roll off starting around 10Khz..



Danny's upgrade may be different than what I came up with..
But it's still miles better than the stock performance..  :lol:

Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: New Klipsch RP-600M MK2
« Reply #14 on: 19 May 2022, 10:29 pm »
I've also already updated the Klipsch RP pages because i know people *will* ask if I dont put that info on the page before hand..
So if it reduces the number of people asking by 50-70% I've done my job.  :lol:

jrocks29ms@gmail.com

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Re: New Klipsch RP-600M MK2
« Reply #15 on: 22 May 2022, 01:11 am »
Seems to me, that the most notable upgrade to the mk 2 will be the woofer updates, the rp bookshelf tweeter was already a moderately good performer, in this category a speaker. With the Gr research upgrade kit, it does quite well.
The woofer on the other hand lacks bass detail and speed of better constructed drivers.

I asked Hobbs earlier today, what his opinion was of replacing just the midbass drivers in the rp-600m 1 with the new rp-600m2 drivers with larger voice coils and shorting rings.

What could we expect with a direct replacement, both good and bad.
The outgoing model’s midbass drivers could be purchased new for roughly $50 a unit shipped. At maybe $100, I think this could be a nice upgrade to a speaker which otherwise has met its limitations, specifically because of the driver composition. I think it would bode well for those with existing rp-600m’s, and especially those who have done the upgrade kits.

BicycleJoe

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Re: New Klipsch RP-600M MK2
« Reply #16 on: 22 May 2022, 04:39 pm »
Quote
At maybe $100, I think this could be a nice upgrade to a speaker which otherwise has met its limitations, specifically because of the driver composition.
@JRocks29ms
Hi I am BicycleJoe this is my first post on this forum. I got here because of YouTube and GR research videos, especially Danny's audio expert invitational challenge.
We have conversed over upgrading some Klipsch Heresy, since then I've been looking at other options. Which may include buying a pair of Crites CS3's

The RP 600M II Woofer drivers have a longer voice coil and cabinet space is increased which would probably prohibit the one on one swap with the new drivers...
I think the best way to improve the 600 M is to buy one of Danny's speakers straight out the gate.

I really never liked the copper spun ceramic cone, I always preferred a paper cone.

I have a newbie question is it possible to take a JBL 240 Ti Vintage speaker and improve sensitivity from the rated 89 db by redesigning its crossover?
Or does sensitivity depend more on your choice of drivers.

I am purchasing a Zen triode SE34.6 I along with the Zen ZP3 phono pre. about 6 watts per channel or 12w mono.
Rather than buy new speakers or build a kit I was thinking
My JBL's are ready for a refurbishing @ 40 years old they have been waiting silently for about six years because of the surrounds crumbling to dust and possible coil damage.

Does a restoration to include upgraded redesigned crossover make such an an increase in sensitivity possible ?

If I could increase their sensitivity to around 94db @1m I would like to go that route



Is such an upgrade possible
« Last Edit: 22 May 2022, 10:51 pm by BicycleJoe »

Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: New Klipsch RP-600M MK2
« Reply #17 on: 23 May 2022, 01:10 am »
Quote
I have a newbie question is it possible to take a JBL 240 Ti Vintage speaker and improve sensitivity from the rated 89 db by redesigning its crossover?
Or does sensitivity depend more on your choice of drivers.

It's determined by the efficiency of the woofers. If they are 84dB then they can't be boosted by the crossover, like the tweeter often can, by reducing the resistor values.

The only way to increase efficiency will be to add another driver in parallel to gain 6dB, but that that point, it's a totally different speaker being built from scratch.

jrocks29ms@gmail.com

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Re: New Klipsch RP-600M MK2
« Reply #18 on: 23 May 2022, 02:48 am »
The increase in size of the version 2 is very minimal, maybe an inch. And with an added internal brace I think air space cancels itself out.
Yeah I agree that a kit is a improvement on the klipsch rp-600m even upgraded with Danny’s kit. However I’ve never even got a chance to listen to mine, finished. I am still burning in bypass caps and the cabinets screw holes stripped out  in several spots and need fixed.
Since the drivers are coming out anyhow, a $100 upgrade that can yield nice results and improve the speakers I already own is what for the time being interests me. Maybe it will be better maybe not. I’ll have the old drivers if not, and the new woofers can be sold on eBay at maybe 75 percent costs. If the upgrade is a success the older woofers can be sold reducing cost on the new drivers. It is a CHEAP potential upgrade. So what do I have to lose. So that brings me to…
What does a problem swapping the new drivers into a version one cabinet look or sound like? How would I know it’s a problem? Fr response? Spectral analysis?
Here’s pics of the new crossover per klipsch compared to the one I pulled out of the rp-600m. Maybe values are different but it looks identical to the first rp-600m crossover. This leads to think the woofer driver modification of the series 2 is about distortion, and better dampening.

rendering.

 

« Last Edit: 23 May 2022, 04:12 am by jrocks29ms@gmail.com »

Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: New Klipsch RP-600M MK2
« Reply #19 on: 23 May 2022, 03:39 am »
When a woofer is placed into a smaller airspace than it requires, you get a bump in midbass output followed by an early roll off. The larger that difference, the more dramatic it is.

The XLS bookshelf actually uses the airspace required for a sealed cabinet. Porting it boosts the mid/upper bass 1-2dB but causes the -3db point to be 55Hz while the X-SLS is more liniar in the midbass, and rolls off around 45Hz instead.

The difference in the 600M v2 is about an inch in both height and depth, so if there are differences it may be minor but the differences created by the longer voice coil and copper shorting rings are still unaccounted for.

The crossover is likely very similar but may be using some slightly different values to better allow the drivers to play together.
However, it's also not known if the larger waveguide for the tweeter is also to better account for the difference in the voice coil depth of the woofer, allowing for proper phase coherence without having to make any major changes to the crossover.



This Klippel "estimated in-room response" from Erins Audio Corner, looks really similar to our measurements of the RP600M (thought not officially listed as such) and includes both a "new and old" version of a speaker.

Assuming this is the 600m vs the V2, they do appear to be nearly identical at stock. Except for the lack of a dip at the crossover point and a slightly early roll off at the very top end.

It might be possible that swapping the woofer out may benefit the speaker, but it may also not make much of a worthwhile difference if any. It's hard to really say one way or another without comparing both woofers side by side.