[Zero]

I like tubes. My ears have always preferred the sound of tubes over their solid-state counterparts. Subsequently and not so surprisingly, I've owned numerous tube components (mostly integrates) that range from the price of a low end laptop to the tag of a brand new car. But I don't run any now. Why? Part of that answer is due to the Karan KA I-180 integrate that I have on hand right now. It's one of, if not the only solid state integrate I've come across that's managed to almost bridge the gap between solid state and tubes, without any of the drawbacks that comes with owning and taking care of tubes.

Now, before the valve-hawks swoop in for the kill, it's important to qualify this particular solid state integrate is expensive. Very expensive. As in, $10,500 USD at this point in time. It's also important to mention that a tube lover should not buy this amp expecting the same tube-like sound they get from their high end VAC, JADIS, VIVA, or what have you. It's still a different animal, but its one whose stripes is very easy to love once you live with it for an extended period of time. 

That said, tubes will always have a place in this household... At least, so it is for this tin eared audiophool.

[cujobob]

As mentioned, speakers are more critical to the sound reproduced...so you are forced to give them whatever allows them to work best.  The room the speakers are placed in is generally more important, as well.  The comment: "I prefer the signal to be as close to the original source as possible when it reaches the speakers. I believe solid state is the best way to achieve that end." ...really seems to show what many people believe, that tubes are inferior.  The problem is, there are a lot of poorly designed tube amps and to make a good tube amp generally costs more than it would for a good solid state unit.  There are some relatively inexpensive tube amps that sound tremendous (particularly pre-amps), but not many that are power amps with decent wattage.  My McAlister PP-150-8 really sounds tremendous...especially after I put in a passive attenuator, but 75 WPC won't work with all systems.  Earl Geddes uses a $200 digital receiver (chip amps) to power his $6K speakers and many have claimed he has the best home theater they've ever heard.  He chose that particular unit because of its low noise, but it goes to show how little you can spend to achieve great sound from your electronics...if you have a properly treated room and well designed speakers.

Basically, yes, SS will generally meet the criteria necessary for good sound from most modern speakers and not all tube amps in the same pricerange will.

[Tyson]

Not much is more sensitive to noise and distortion that headphones.  The drivers sit right next to your ears, and any little bit of poor performance is amplified.  I still prefer tube amps, even in this application.

[rydenfan]

I used to be much more planted in the "tube camp" than I am in now. I truly believe that most of it comes down to the designer of the gear and their voicing of the equipment than anything else. My system is a combo 2 channel/HT room so tube amps have never really been a reality for me. I see no point to burn up tubes while watching TV and having to bias them on a regular basis. However, on the pre-amp side I always believed I had to have a tube pre to attain the "realism" with music that I crave. I can tell you that recently changed though. I was fortunate enough to get have in my house 2 different tube pre's and one SS pre. In my system, the particular SS pre was far more musical then either of the tube pre's. It has less leading edge attack and more of a silken texture. This was truly an eye opening experience for me  as previously I truly would not have thought this possible. It just helps to further instill in my stubborn brain that I should never make any assumptions or pre-conceived notions in this hobby, and always let my ears make the decision. 

[Freo-1]

Both types (tube or solid state) can indeed sound excellent. Some points to consider:

1) It's MUCH easier to get the design right with tubes as opposed to solid state.   
2) The older tube units from the likes of Fisher or Scott, once restored, can provide a level of clarity and frequency extension that the vast majority of solid state simply cannot achieve.  The old Freed transformers can pass 10 to 100KHz within one db!   
3) The cost to obtain high quality sound from an vintage Scott/Fisher unit can in fact be lower than a lot of these esoteric amps made today by some guy in his garage.
4) DIY is more easily accomplished successfully with tubes than solid state.
5) The distortion characteristics with tubes generally are easier on the ears than solid state. 

Speakers can play a large role in perception. If you start off with a vifa tweeter, the benefits of a tubed topology can easily be heard.  I've often found that the better the speaker, the easier it is to hear differences between tubes and solid state. In most cases, the tube amps better the solid state variants.

Lastly, I take issue with the vast majority of recordings today. Most of them, in a word, suck pretty bad.  They are distorted, noisy, and often don't even achieve 16 bit resolution with a chopped off frequency curve, never mind 24 bit with extended frequency. It's pretty sad that a SACD recording fron the 50's or 60's provides better clarity and extension than the majority of crap that passes for music recording today.

[sleepysurf]

... In my system, the particular SS pre was far more musical then either of the tube pre's. It has less leading edge attack and more of a silken texture. This was truly an eye opening experience for me  as previously I truly would not have thought this possible. It just helps to further instill in my stubborn brain that I should never make any assumptions or pre-conceived notions in this hobby, and always let my ears make the decision. 

What SS Pre did you audition?

[FullRangeMan]

Solid State circuits are great for digital audio gears, image gears, car audio, computers, cells phones, washing machines, etc...

To amplify music tubes have the best sound, have sweet harmonics, large soundstage and better musicality than Transzistorrs...
There is a old adagio about this:  Transistor makes sense, tubes makes music.

I can not view why a sane person will prefer use a SS music amp, unless he is a Pro-Audio worker and by this have hard ears and a opinion lead to favor the SS studio amp brands of his beloved work.

As Iam not radical, in last case I can accept a SS amp, since it is Class A output, because without alot of heat there is no sound quality.
Sincerely,  Full

P.S.: Sorry Class AB fans.

[twitch54]

I can not view why a sane person will prefer use a SS music amp

Here's two for you to ponder.........Plinius and Pass Labs, to generalize them as not being musical merely means one knows very little about audio.

As Iam not radical, in last case I can accept a SS amp, since it is Class A output, because without alot of heat there is no sound quality.
Sincerely,  Full

Again.....Plinius and Pass labs........and there are more !!

[Jon L]

The three best systems I've heard (including my reference, the Sonicweld Pulserod system) were all driven by solid state amps. They were all well in excess of $100k though...

Peace,

Lee

That is exactly the problem.  I've certainly auditioned many excellent-sounding SS systems, but basically all of them were $$$$$. 

I tend to prefer single-ended tube amps for myself, but only because I have already accomplished the critical task of coming up with high-efficiency, benign-impedance speakers.  This really cannot be stressed enough IMO.

Given the right speakers, often the sound quality I can get from single-ended tube amps picked up for <$1000 on the used market with a few mods thrown in can be simply exquisite.   

[FullRangeMan]

Dear Mr. Swith54,
...Course the Plinius SA250 and Nelson Pass XA.5 line have good sound, they are Class A amps, are hi praised in magazines and hi priced too (over priced ).
But with all this hi prices this brands can not beat a transparency and stage of a AtmaSphere OTL ( only 6500 dollars for a M60mk3 mono pair 60w).

The prices of SolidState Hi-End amps are so scandalous hi that the entry level FM Acoustics RS-111 (115w) mono amps cost 17000 Euros in France. But in tube gear you can buy in USA for only 6000 dollars both, a JoLida JD3000A mono 200w tube amp and a JoLida JD3000B tube preamp, or two monos amps and a tube preamp for only six grand.

The problem with SS amp is they are obsoleted very fast by a new transistor device every 6 month, a new topology in afew years ( the PASS XA line last 5 years and are superexceded by the new .5 line). The tube gear no have this problem, the 2A3 tube is from 1930 years and are blowing hard in the Fi amps today.

More, not speaking of the best (OTLs), I will prefer the sound of the 211 JoLida tubes to any Pass Labs or Plinius.
Sincerely, Full

[doug s.]

i keep my mesa baron on hand, for "normal" speakers.  at full-pentode, it makes 150wpc, more than enough for most normal speakers, even in large rooms.  especially, if you actively cross your mains to subs at 40-100hz, depending on the speaker you are using.  (i have found that its 2/3 triode-1/3 pentode setting, at ~85wpc is still sufficient for most speaker loads.)

this is the one area where s/s amps rule - for subwoofing.  as i am always subwoofing, i see no area where tube amps won't outperform s/s amps sonically w/most speakers, above the subwoofer x-over point.  i presently enjoy a choice of several low-power tube amps for the efficient speakers i am presently using - they all make 4 to 8wpc, and absolutely will blast you out of the room w/spls and dynamics, w/my fostex fe206e's in oris 150 horns.  i also have a pair of 6c33c set monoblocks that will go surprisingly loud w/many "normal" speakers, when crossed over to subs.  since i went to using subs in the early 90's, and didn't discover the pleasure of tube amps until a couple years later, i have never had any issues w/tube amps and low bass - i have never asked this of them.

of course, i could never imagine getting rid of a tube line stage (i have enjoyed my modded melos ma333r for over ten years, now.)  i confess to using a s/s fono stage that gets run thru the melos...

ymmv,

doug s.

[rydenfan]

Fullrange, you seem to be a very strongly opinionated person. I agree with some of what you say but not all; however, I am not to sure that you are into opinions that differ from yours. You call Pass labs over priced compared to a Jolida yet the Pass Labs XA30.5 stereo amp is under $6,000 with 30 watts of pure Class A. Plinius as well offers a wide range of amps. You dont believe tube amps get updated over time? You specifically mention Atma-Sphere; why do they have Mk.2 and Mk.3 versions of pieces if they are not further developing and refining tier product? A little diplomacy goes a long way here...

[rydenfan]

... In my system, the particular SS pre was far more musical then either of the tube pre's. It has less leading edge attack and more of a silken texture. This was truly an eye opening experience for me  as previously I truly would not have thought this possible. It just helps to further instill in my stubborn brain that I should never make any assumptions or pre-conceived notions in this hobby, and always let my ears make the decision. 

What SS Pre did you audition?

Feel free to shoot me a PM. I wouldn't want to hijack the thread or anything. I am already on thin ice saying I preferred an SS pre to a tube pre in the Tube Circle 

[doug s.]

... In my system, the particular SS pre was far more musical then either of the tube pre's. It has less leading edge attack and more of a silken texture. This was truly an eye opening experience for me  as previously I truly would not have thought this possible. It just helps to further instill in my stubborn brain that I should never make any assumptions or pre-conceived notions in this hobby, and always let my ears make the decision. 

What SS Pre did you audition?

Feel free to shoot me a PM. I wouldn't want to hijack the thread or anything. I am already on thin ice saying I preferred an SS pre to a tube pre in the Tube Circle 

you can answer here - methinks you wouldn't be hijacking the thread, but would in fact be yust what the thread starter wanted - folks who prefer s/s, and with what gear and why...     yust cuz you may get a lot of folks who think otherwise, so what?   

doug s.

[FullRangeMan]

Fullrange, you seem to be a very strongly opinionated person. I agree with some of what you say but not all; however, I am not to sure that you are into opinions that differ from yours. You call Pass labs over priced compared to a Jolida yet the Pass Labs XA30.5 stereo amp is under $6,000 with 30 watts of pure Class A. Plinius as well offers a wide range of amps. You dont believe tube amps get updated over time? You specifically mention Atma-Sphere; why do they have Mk.2 and Mk.3 versions of pieces if they are not further developing and refining tier product? A little diplomacy goes a long way here...

Dear Rydenfan,
I ask excuses if offend anyone, so apologize everyone...
The PASS XA.5 line is not the typical SS amp, they are very, very good, it is a blue rose, a rare breed. The XP10 preamp to match this XA-30.5 cost around 6.5K dollars, this is not cheap when you can get a awarded dual mono tubed PrimaLuna 3 preamp for only 1600 dollars,
the PrimaLunas gears are more beautiful inside than outside, for the good workmanship.
Plinius brand have few models in Class A, the others are Class AB.
The AtmaSphere MK-3 series was counting since 1978, when the company was created, with the first product  MA-1 (mk-1) amp.
The update are in a slow ratio with tube companies I like and follow.
Regards, Full

[JakeJ]

Hi Rydenfan,

I agree with doug s. in that you should feel free to state a brand of SS pre you liked over any tube based unit you have heard.  I'm curious myself as I run a McCormack ALD-1 that has Rev A+ mods done to it and it absolutely smokes my Quicksilver tube preamp.  The OP (TCG) has stated his own experiences mixing SS and tubes and called for opinions.

And speaking of opinions let's keep in mind that that is what they are.  FULLRANGEMAN is just stating his, doesn't make him right and doesn't make him wrong, just heavily biased (like the better SS amps I have heard ).

This has certainly been an entertaining and civil thread thus far, keep up the good work!

Thanks,
JakeJ

[Tyson]

For those defending SS, I'll simply quote Aimee Mann:

now you're

Driving sideways

taken in by the scenery

as you're propelled along

And your companion

will not help you to navigate

for fear she may be wrong

And you will say

that you're making headway

and put it in overdrive

but you're mistaking speed

for getting what you need

and never even noticing

you never do arrive

cause you're

Driving sideways

if you roll down the window you'll see

you're where you don't belong

[groovybassist]

This is what makes this hobby and the world such an interesting place.  If we all felt the same way, imagine what a boring place it would be.

As an active bassist earlier in life, rhythmic timing is very important to me - I feel the space between notes and attack creates the tension  and emotion in music.  This is why I've chosen a Naim system.  Current Naim gear also happens to be very good in terms of timbre and isn't sterile or analytical sounding.  I notice it immediately when I'm listening to components that don't have that same timing ability - they sound lethargic and just don't grab me.  This is true of electronics and speakers.  I use Lenehan Audio ML1 speakers and they made the SP Tech Mini's I had sound positively lethargic - a rare feat for those that know the Mini's.  It would be short-sighted to read this and think my system is all about speed and nothing else - it combines speed and clarity with accurate timbre.  When I listen to other speakers/systems, they just sound thick and honky, especially in the midrange.

I'm sure tubes have wonderful characteristics - I'm just not sure they're for me, or that I'm up for the maintenance aspects of a tube setup.

-Mike

[gongos]

Some time ago there was a SS/tube amp shoot out. I believe the listening was done blind. There were some very good tube amps--Dodd, etc. etc. One SS amps thrown in was a pair of Odyssey Extreme Monoblocks.
Guess what amps a good majority of the people preferred by a fairly wide margin?

The Odyssey's.

[Tyson]

Some time ago there was a SS/tube amp shoot out. I believe the listening was done blind. There were some very good tube amps--Dodd, etc. etc. One SS amps thrown in was a pair of Odyssey Extreme Monoblocks.
Guess what amps a good majority of the people preferred by a fairly wide margin?

The Odyssey's.

Yeah, but driving what speaker?  Hard to drive speakers will always give a leg up to SS amps, just the name of the game.