Dual Subwoofers with 3.7s

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mcgsxr

Re: Dual Subwoofers with 3.7s
« Reply #20 on: 8 May 2019, 06:30 pm »
Really nice carbon 10 inch woofer on those REL subs.  Reminds me of the current Totem 8 inch Kin subwoofer.

I used a dual 7 inch sub with my 1.6's, but that's a world away from the 3.7's.

kmmd

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Re: Dual Subwoofers with 3.7s
« Reply #21 on: 8 May 2019, 08:13 pm »
It’s been a while since I’ve posted here, but I have had some experience with subs and Maggie’s.

I have a biamped pair of 3.6’s with a ModWright KWA150SE powering the mids and highs and a pair of Bryston 7B SST’s for the lows.  I used a pair of subs, a Velodyne DD15 and a DD12 as a slave sub, for about 10 years.  Then my DD15 buzzed and off it went.  It was strange, as I wasn’t playing anything at the time.  What a blessing that was, as it allowed me to purchase my REL subs.

I bought one REL S/5 SHO sub about a month ago.  I put it one corner of my room and use the high level input cable connected to a Bryston amp.  Adjustment was fairly easy, but it took some time.  Bass is seamless, accurate and extends.  As I told my dealer, it’s as if I had full range Maggie’s.  One was quite enough IMO. However, I just added a second S/5 about a week ago.  It’s located in the opposite corner of the room and about ten feet away from the right 3.6.  It’s connected using REL’s Longbow Bluetooth transmitter which is  absolutely incredible and easy to set up.  OMG is all I need to say.  My HT has never sounded this good with such impact.  I’ll add the DD 12 back into the system as a dedicated center channel sub for my tricenter setup using a pair of MG 10’s and a CC3.  I have 1.6’s as my surrounds, and the REL’s complement them as well.

I’ve wanted a REL for a while, and I’m glad I took the plunge.  Please read the reviews on the S/5.  Buy any REL from a dealer and take advantage of their 60-day trial.  Trust me, they won’t be going anywhere.

emailtim

Re: Dual Subwoofers with 3.7s
« Reply #22 on: 12 May 2019, 11:43 pm »
FWIW, my vote goes to OB/Dipole subs to mate with Magggies for best music integration.

I have tried various box subs over the years (dual Martin Logan Servo Descent I's, M&K's, Rels, Magellan/TBI transmission line subs, etc.), but they never blended seamlessly for me so they were either repurposed for HT, returned, sold or turned into dust collectors.  They would always show themselves when you try different volume combinations or content selections.  What setting/configuration would blend well in one scenario would not in another.  The TBI's were nice at low volumes, but would not keep up with the Maggies when you turn up the volume.  Port chuffing became the wart at increased volumes and they all gave localization queues which drew attention to themselves.  I understand that TBI has made mods since to address the port chuffing, but haven't tried their newer models.

If you want something to blend well with OB/Dipoles, I assume you have to extend similar design characteristics throughout the frequency range, else the relative levels will not match as SPL changes.  It is also beneficial to match line sources with line sources and point sources with point sources for similar reasons based on SPL reduction over distance.

I have been playing with 2 - 12" GR Research Dipole Servo subs both with the Rythmik Servo Amp (hardware low pass dipole roll off shelf and servo) and an ICEPower ASP1000 amp (software low pass dipole roll off shelf with no servo).  Both have given the best integration to date with my Magnepan 20.1's.  I am using a Marchand XM44 XO to cross them over with symmetric 40Hz/48dB slopes.  I am getting relatively flat in-room seamless responses down to 13 Hz.  After testing these in different OB cabinets and getting the results I have, I have placed another driver on order to make the double into a triple and will possibly add another triple (for stereo) when time and budget permits.

They seem to track with volume changes as well as content changes and do not provide localizations in my venue like the other box subs that I have tried.  They have added tangible bass at low volume levels which is something I have never been able to do with Maggies without cranking the volume.  In short, I am very happy with their integration (best I have heard) to date and don't feel I will be turning them off because of content specific or SPL level miss-matches for music.

FWIW, I am currently running the 2 drivers in a triple 1.5" thick (sides, center, shelves) MDF H-Frame cabinet that weighs a ton and has no flex.  All joints have dados.



« Last Edit: 22 May 2019, 06:21 am by emailtim »

emailtim

Re: Dual Subwoofers with 3.7s
« Reply #23 on: 22 May 2019, 06:22 am »
UPDATE to my previous post: 

Got the 3rd driver last week to fill out the triple H-Frame.  Good stuff.


Here is an in-room response plot.  Usable sub-bass down to 13Hz.

ketchup

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Re: Dual Subwoofers with 3.7s
« Reply #24 on: 27 Jan 2020, 10:11 pm »
UPDATE to my previous post: 

Here is an in-room response plot.  Usable sub-bass down to 13Hz.


That looks great!  My 3.6Rs are flat to 30hz in my room. I'm thinking about adding two pairs of 12" GR OB subs.  Do you think I'll experience a huge upgrade in overall sound quality if it makes my system flat to ~13hz?  I'm not exactly sure what information is down there and wondering if the expense ($2,500) is really worth it.

emailtim

Re: Dual Subwoofers with 3.7s
« Reply #25 on: 27 Jan 2020, 10:30 pm »
That looks great!  My 3.6Rs are flat to 30hz in my room. I'm thinking about adding two pairs of 12" GR OB subs.  Do you think I'll experience a huge upgrade in overall sound quality if it makes my system flat to ~13hz?  I'm not exactly sure what information is down there and wondering if the expense ($2,500) is really worth it.

Ketchup,

The 20.1's go down to 25Hz, but I do not run them that low.  You should be able to run the OB/Dipole subs higher than 40Hz (e.g. 80, 120 or higher if you get a plate amp with LFE options).  This will take the bass load off of your 3.6 amp if you are using an external XO to manage the integration.  It also will start giving you more dynamic range in the low end.  These subs can blend very well with Maggies and can take over some of the bass load.  Think of them as DWM's on steroids (go much lower than DWM's).

I am using REW and RePhase for integration along with an active XO.  Here is where the integration is currently at.



Here is a very helpful frequency chart which will give you an idea of what is in the lower registers.  As you run the subs higher, you start picking up more of the percussion section but you have to use DSP to get the waterfall above.

« Last Edit: 28 Jan 2020, 12:08 am by emailtim »

ketchup

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Re: Dual Subwoofers with 3.7s
« Reply #26 on: 28 Jan 2020, 09:49 pm »
Thanks.  I understand what instruments extend down into the lower registers.  What I meant was, what does adding 13-30hz do for the listening experience?  I won't be using DSP because I also have analog sources.

emailtim

Re: Dual Subwoofers with 3.7s
« Reply #27 on: 28 Jan 2020, 11:25 pm »
Thanks.  I understand what instruments extend down into the lower registers.  What I meant was, what does adding 13-30hz do for the listening experience?  I won't be using DSP because I also have analog sources.

It gives you a fuller sound by extending the frequency range as well adding felt sub bass, but additional improvements can be gained by running them to a higher frequency and offloading those bass frequencies from the Maggie bass panels.  I wouldn't rule out the option to cross over the Sub/Maggies at 80Hz or 120Hz to get more dynamic range out of your system.

Here is Flim and the BB's Tricycle dynamic range with OB/Dipole subs set flat to the mains, running higher in frequency.  Maggies can't do that by themselves.


shumi

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Re: Dual Subwoofers with 3.7s
« Reply #28 on: 29 Jan 2020, 01:26 pm »
Holy cow Tim, we have a lot more in common than I thought! I own almost all of Flim and the BBs recordings. They  have excellent DR. Anyway, thanks to Tim's guidance, and after extensive research, I am also augmenting my 3.6Rs with dual triple GRs Hframe OB/dipole  subs using a XO bypassing magnepan external crossover. I have ordered all parts. I expect to be running in a month or so as my 3.6Rs are also being refurbished.

jsm71

Re: Dual Subwoofers with 3.7s
« Reply #29 on: 30 Jan 2020, 05:28 pm »
As a few have already suggested, I agree with using Rythmik subs.  Make sure you use one of their servo subs to keep up with the Maggies.  I use a pair of Rythmik F12G (GR research drivers) servo subs with my ESL speakers.  The Rythmik subs have all the needed controls to really dial them in.  Their support was helpful with all the setup questions I had.

SteveFord

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Re: Dual Subwoofers with 3.7s
« Reply #30 on: 15 Jun 2021, 01:20 am »
I've only been thinking about this since 2019 when this thread first started but I finally did it.
Remember that Crown amplifier that was out on tour here many years ago?
If so, that particular amplifier is now powering a set of SVS cylindrical subs with a Rolls dual subwoofer filter.
https://rolls.com/product/SX95

You can get one of those on Amazon for around $100.

Set up was really easy - position the subs where you want them, put the crossover around 40 hZ, turn the volume up on the Crown all the way and blend in the volume with the Rolls, leave it in stereo and off you go.

Should I have done this a long time ago?
Yes.

SteveFord

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Re: Dual Subwoofers with 3.7s
« Reply #31 on: 7 Jul 2021, 10:26 pm »
One final note on that Rolls unit: it MUST be kept on while the amp driving the subs is turned on.
If not, once every 15 seconds you'll get a THUMP! into the subs.
Keep the Rolls and the Crown on at the same time and dead silent.

I think I'm finally out of Class D Purgatory (for a little while, at least).

Jazzman53

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Re: Dual Subwoofers with 3.7s
« Reply #32 on: 1 Jan 2022, 04:42 am »
I use a pair of these with my full dipole ESL's.  I'm thinking they would work well with Maggies too. 



SteveFord

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Re: Dual Subwoofers with 3.7s
« Reply #33 on: 1 Jan 2022, 11:07 am »
I'm sure they would.
Beautiful work, too.

Jazzman53

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Re: Dual Subwoofers with 3.7s
« Reply #34 on: 2 Jan 2022, 04:21 pm »
I use a pair of these with my full dipole ESL's.  I'm thinking they would work well with Maggies too. 

Forgot to add:
You can't buy Ripole subs anywhere that I know of, but I will provide my drawings and a parts list to anyone who wants them (free of charge). 
 


firewall

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Re: Dual Subwoofers with 3.7s
« Reply #35 on: 18 Jan 2022, 09:21 am »
I run these - SVS PC 4000 x2 (in stereo mode,) for my front subwoofers. I run an Earthquake MKV15 for the rear.

The Earthquake hits hard but the sound is a bit slower than the PC 4000s.

Very tight, articulate, subtle yet explosive bottom-end.

I have it set up in 'extended' mode (1 port blocked,) as this seems to be 'faster' than in standard mode (no ports blocked.)

With SVS, you can use an app to fine-tune your woofer from your favorite seat.

Alas - they used to be $1800/each, but now I think they are $2300/each.

So for about $5,000 you end up with a fantastic subwoofer setup that (IMHO) mates well with Maggies.




Tyson

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Re: Dual Subwoofers with 3.7s
« Reply #36 on: 18 Jan 2022, 03:38 pm »
I don't have maggies but I do have OB planar magnetic speakers and I'd recommend open baffle subs:

https://gr-research.com/product/sub-series-double-trouble-with-flatpacks-copy/

Craig B

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Re: Dual Subwoofers with 3.7s
« Reply #37 on: 19 Jan 2022, 12:36 pm »
My brother has a pair of REL G1 MkII subs with his 20.7s, and I have to say the whole thing sounds amazing.

SteveFord

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Re: Dual Subwoofers with 3.7s
« Reply #38 on: 19 Jan 2022, 01:11 pm »
Is your brother looking to adopt in the near future?
I don't eat much but do smoke a lot.

firewall

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Re: Dual Subwoofers with 3.7s
« Reply #39 on: 29 Jan 2022, 09:26 am »
I run SVS cylinder subwoofers.

2 PC 4000s.

They are fast enough, and they offer almost bottomless first couple of octaves.