[magister]

For over 20 years, I have owned a pair of the VR-4 jr speakers. I’m thinking it might be time for an upgrade, although the jr’s still sound very good. I don’t see any posts here about the sound of the VSA ONE speaker or its predecessor the Endeavor. 

I am more sensitive than some listeners to the treble range. Any speaker that is at all harsh or shrill at the top end will not work for me.  Beyond that, I value accurate reproduction of timbre and strong but well controlled bass. I imagine that any speaker from VSA would do well with the latter, as the jr’s do.  But I would appreciate comments from anyone who has heard the ONE — this is a major decision for me.

Also, due to my room layout, the speakers will need to sit fairly close to the back wall (18 to 20 inches more or less), which not all speakers are happy to do.

[Tubeburner]

Find a pair of Von Schweikert VR7 HSE

[WGH]

I can understand why you want to stay in the Von Schweikert family, the ONE looks like an excellent speaker and the ability to be located close to the front wall is definitely a plus. But I have a feeling you are putting the cart before the horse. The VR-4 Jr speakers are draft horses compared to the ONE. What electronics will you be driving the ONE's with?

I bought a pair of Von Schweikert VR-2 speakers in 2006 and loved them at the time. The bass was better than any speaker I previously owned but deep bass was not quick or punchy, more woolly and loose because the cabinet had no bracing so I did major interior modifications that transformed the speaker into a something really nice with deeper, quick bass along with added clarity because the cabinet sides were no longer vibrating.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=44748.msg400398#msg400398

The VR-2 and VR-4 Jr speakers were made in China and except for the size difference used almost identical parts including the tweeter. I have a real good feel for what the VR-4 Jr speakers sound like. The soft dome fabric tweeter is smooth without any peakiness, the woofers are some sort of plastic/rubber compound, the sound is warm and comfy like a pair of 20 year old slippers.

The ONE speaker is the opposite of the VR-4 Jr. A well damped cabinet housing aluminum woofers, a Kevlar midrange with a beryllium dome tweeter. I recently listened to two different speaker designs that used beryllium tweeters, these tweeters clearly reveal everything, good and bad. Phono cartridges and pre-amps require a smooth high end. Electronics should be smooth and close to state-of-the-art or digital nasties will appear. I am sensitive to harsh and shrill treble too so all digital is upsampled to DSD256, 16 bit/44.1 kHz CDs and downloads are all upsampled because PCM always has a bite to my ears.

Salk BePure1 speaker with beryllium tweeter review
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=189729.msg1984959#msg1984959

Troels Gravesen Purifi-Be speaker with beryllium tweeter review
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=190915.msg1997728#msg1997728


Admittedly a small sampling of speakers that use a beryllium tweeter but I'm beginning to see a trend here. And I haven't heard the Von Schweikert ONE either.

I prefer the sound of the RAAL ribbon tweeter, it sounds more natural to my ears. Von Schweikert makes speakers with a ribbon tweeter, I would check them out before deciding. Definitely listen to other models before spending $27,000, that amount may be just the tip of the iceberg if your electronics are also 20 years old.

That said, you definitely need new speakers.

[magister]

Find a pair of Von Schweikert VR7 HSE

Interesting suggestion!  I believe that these are about the same vintage as my VR IV-jr's.  When new, they were higher up in the VSA lineup than the jr's.  I'm not sure it's a good idea to invest in another old pair of speakers.  I take it you think these would be a sonic improvement (and the price would be less than a new pair, certainly).

[magister]

@WGH, thank you very much for the detailed reply.  My electronics have been all upgraded in the past few years, which is partly why I think it's time for new speakers.  Most of my stuff is from PS Audio -- DirectStream DAC Mk2, BHK preamp, BHK 250 amp.  Turntable is 20 years old and doesn't get much love these days.

I'm not sure whether the cabinet of the jr's vibrates as that of your VR-2 did.  I filled the cavities in the woofer modules with lead shot, as recommended, which did tighten up the bass considerably.  I must say that whenever I have upgraded other parts of my system, the jr's have had no trouble showing me the improvement (or, in one case, slightly worse sound) -- this is one thing that has made me hang on to them as long as I have.  Draft horses may not be exciting as thoroughbreds, but they have their charms.

Your comments about tweeters are particularly helpful, and I will certainly consider this aspect of any new speakers I look at.  My original budget was about $15,000, which the ONE exceeds, although I could manage it by saving for a few more months.  So I will look around and see what else is out there. 

[WGH]

My electronics have been all upgraded in the past few years, which is partly why I think it's time for new speakers.  Most of my stuff is from PS Audio -- DirectStream DAC Mk2, BHK preamp, BHK 250 amp.  Turntable

So I will look around and see what else is out there.

The PS Audio electronics will allow you to upgrade to literally any speaker made. Our small audio club has a an amazing selection of excellent electronics and speakers. One guy has the BHK 250 amp and a couple other guys have the DirectStream DAC Mk2. I borrowed a PS Audio M1200 amp for a week and wrote a review. Have you taken a pilgrimage to an audio show lately? I discovered my current speakers at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest in Denver, Colorado, 1445 kilometers North from where I live. Out of the 100 speakers I heard over the weekend the Salk Sound room was a breath of fresh air and I knew I just had to have these speakers. Jim Salk retired so Salk speakers are no longer being made.

System synergy is mysterious but obvious when it is heard. Salk speakers were tested and voiced using Van Alstine electronics. By coincidence all my electronics are also by Van Alstine so when the Salk speakers were connected, magic happened. And still happens.

Of course the logical conclusion is to travel to an audio show or showroom to listen to the PS Audio speakers with PS Audio electronics. I have only read good things about PS Audio speakers. Von Schweikert is usually at audio shows too, it would be fun to listen to both brands.

PS Audio Aspen Speakers
https://www.psaudio.com/collections/aspen

Aspen FR20 Loudspeaker review
https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/ps-audio-aspen-fr20-loudspeakers/

"The FR20 really got my attention with its lack of glare and edge, which can be poorly disguised as presence or detail. The piano, hard-panned to the right, is beautifully recorded save a couple of moments where the upper registers are very dynamic, resulting in just a brief moment of unnatural glare. Through the FR20 that glare is nearly eradicated, leaving nothing but the piano's texture and timbre to remain coherent and the musical involvement to go unbroken."

[magister]

Ah yes, the Aspen speakers.   I regularly visit the PSA forum and have followed the rollout of this series beginning with the FR 30. I have no doubt that these are excellent speakers and would sound very good with my PSA components. The problem is that I own an old house that I have restored in an historically correct way. The design and two available colors of the Aspen speakers just will not fit visually. This is unfortunate.  My VR IV-jr’s have a beautiful medium cherry veneer that looks very good in my room.

Maybe I should go to an audio show – it’s been a long time. But I’ve always found them kind of overwhelming although interesting in some ways.

[JackD]

A couple of speakers that might fit your design criteria are the Devore Gibbon Super 9, the Living Voice Auditorium or even the ProAc floor standers like the D48.

[magister]

Jack, thank you for these suggestions!  I looked quickly at all three of them and will study them more carefully when I have time -- they all have possibilities.  On first glance the ProAc looks most promising.

[JackD]

Not sure how important the lowest bass is to you but you might want to look at the Sonus Faber Maxima Amator a reputedly great speaker and a beautiful piece of furniture to boot.

https://www.tonepublications.com/review/the-sonus-faber-maxima-amator/

https://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/features-menu/opinion-menu/1062-the-sonus-faber-maxima-amator-listening-experience

[magister]

My VR IV-jr’s produce bass that is tight and tuneful; i’ve always been impressed with the bass from these relatively small speakers (with lead shot in the cavities). From a measurement perspective I might get more if I added subwoofers. But what I hear sounds very satisfying – even organ music.  So I have been spared the expense of subwoofers and the effort required to integrate them with the main speakers and the room. It would be nice if my new speakers would behave the same way.

[WGH]

So I have been spared the expense of subwoofers and the effort required to integrate them with the main speakers and the room. It would be nice if my new speakers would behave the same way.

So...one would think that $15,000 would buy a full range speaker that plumbs the depths with full range bass. And look good in your room. I can't think of very many.

Daedalus Audio makes beautiful speakers that would look very natural in your room. The company is also has a circle here in AC so you can get plenty of advise about sound and bass response. A member of our local audio club had a smaller pair and the sound was very smooth and a little laid back. I have always enjoyed the Daedalus sound at audio shows too. No sub needed for the larger models.
Daedalus on AudioCircle: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=164
https://www.daedalusaudio.com/

Legacy Audio is known for their big, symphony capable sound. Live drum tracks? No problem. I have heard Legacy Focus SE speakers at audio shows and driven by a BHK 250 amp at Frank Alles's house, one of our audio club members. This was a while ago, all I remember is that the speakers and the sound was big. You do get a lot of speaker for the money. Frank Alles wrote a review of his speakers for Stereo Times magazine:
https://www.stereotimes.com/post/legacy-audio-focus-se-loudspeakers/
https://legacyaudio.com/

Every year Stereophile puts together a list of "Recommended Components." I looked at the list and have listened to exactly one speaker on the list, the Joseph Audio Perspective2. By chance a guy in our club has a pair in a large room. Low bass is practically non-existent so he has a pair of Rythmik subs. The Joseph Audio speakers are revealing and not laid back at all. The SEAS drivers require careful system matching, I know because my speakers use the SEAS W18 7" magnesium cone drivers.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/recommended-components-fall-2024-edition-loudspeakers


I have never heard a large full range speaker reproduce tight low bass, sure there are speakers like the Legacy that can reproduce low bass but there is always a disconnect between the bass and the music. The only times I have heard a seamless bass-midrange-treble integration where the sub disappears and the music floats between the speakers is when a REL subwoofer is used. Unfortunately the REL sub also has to be one of their Reference subs. I have a REL Reference sub, it literally disappears. I have crawled up to the sub wondering if it is on, the bass is so natural it is never heard as a distinct element but turn off the sub and the sound stage collapses. I have also rattled doors and picture frames, REL Reference subs to go down to 15 Hz. My latest discovery is a free recording of Edgar Elgar's massively scored oratorio The Dreams of Gerontius in England's Ely Cathedral. The organ's 16' and 32' bass pipes come in at the very end of track 2, the notes are 32 Hz and 16 Hz. These beats should clearly be heard and felt. My REL G1 MkII sub easily reproduces 15 Hz. I hear and feel everything so the low notes are on the recording.
More info: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=191008.msg1998716#msg1998716

I will never buy a full range speaker again. An excellent $8,000 speaker with a $7,000 REL No.31 sub will outperform any $15,000 speaker available.
https://rel.net/shop/powered-subwoofers/reference-series/no-31/


I wrote a review of my REL sub:
REL G1 MkII Subwoofer Review
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=187300.msg1963493#msg1963493

[magister]

WGH, thank you again for your thoughts.  I am not familiar with Daedalus but will check them out!

I can well believe that it's difficult to make a full-range speaker whose lowest bass integrates well with the rest of the range.  I expect there are some that accomplish this, but they are probably well outside my price range.

Based partly on your comments and partly on experiences I've had over the years, I have three choices.

a) Try to get the very lowest bass using a full-range speaker -- difficult, based on your comments, and would probably require a larger speaker than will fit comfortably in my space.

b) Try to get the very lowest bass using a medium-size and -price (only an audiophile would consider $8000 or $10,000 a medium price  ) speaker plus a quality sub.  Question: some say one needs two subs.  What's been your experience with this?

c) Not worry about the lowest bass.  The number of recordings (such as the "Dream of Gerontius") that really make use of this range is fairly small.  What I've experienced with the VR IV-jr's over the years is a very high quality sound; treble, mid and bass well integrated, revealing of instrumental timbre, etc., etc.  It definitely rolls off below 30HZ but overall the sound is so musical and satisfying that it almost doesn't matter. 

I'll give one example: David Wilson (of speaker fame) made recordings early in his career.  One of these is a disc of Christmas music for organ that includes two settings of the Lutheran chorale "Von Himmel hoch."  I enjoy following the voices played on the manuals for most of this pieces, as the jr's let me do easily.  At the end, the melody comes back in the pedals.  I think there is a 32' stop in use but cannot hear everything down there clearly.  Would it be fun to have a sub and get more from this passage?  Sure.  But even without, I enjoy this piece.  The floor shakes, it's organ music, it's good.  I know intellectually that there is more there, but it's still fun to listen to.  I just don't feel that anything is lacking.

I think what I want to do is search out speakers that give the same overall high-quality sound I get from the jr's and also be more open to the possibility of using a quality sub.  (Others besides you have recommended REL to me.)  Maybe a sub would be worth it and not as difficult as I imagine.

[WGH]

b) Try to get the very lowest bass using a medium-size and -price (only an audiophile would consider $8000 or $10,000 a medium price  ) speaker plus a quality sub.  Question: some say one needs two subs.  What's been your experience with this?

I have a medium sized L-shaped listening room with an open floor plan: 14' (4.27 m) x 17' (5.18 m) main area with 9.5' (2.9 m) x 9.5' kitchen area and a 8' (2.43 m) high ceiling; about 2608 cubic feet (73.85 cubic meters).
One REL sub is all I need. I tried two REL subs just for fun and it really was too much of a good thing.

The REL Reference subs are really sub-subwoofers. My Salk HT2-TL speakers with the RAAL tweeter are super fast with a 34 Hz low frequency response. My G1 MkII is set to about 36 Hz. How do I know? All of REL's Reference subs have a digital display and a remote control. Frequency and loudness is adjustable in 1 dB increments. Some modern pop recordings are mixed to sound good over earbuds and have way too much bass in a high end system. The remote control lets me lower the bass and then return to the reference setting easily.




The system is also a 7.1.4 home theater, there are 8 separate speakers in the photo below.



The common misconception is that subwoofers are only for low bass and action movies. The REL Reference subwoofers create space and for a reason nobody understands the sub also clarifies upper midrange and treble. Because the Reference subs reproduce the lowest frequencies, low level room echos in live recordings are revealed and as talked about in the second video below, the sub literally disappears.

Upscale Audio's Kevin Deal and John Hunter discuss my subwoofer, the REL G1 MkII Reference Subwoofer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSHkpy2280Q


John Hunter talks about the Reference Series at 1:27 into the December 5, 2024 webinar video. The entire video is fascinating.
Face to Face with John Hunter: Everything you ever wanted to know about REL’s Series S
https://www.youtube.com/live/8ubKiA5mrPQ