AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Well Tempered Lab => Topic started by: vortrex on 1 May 2012, 12:35 am
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simplex with a better cart or amadeus with a lesser cart?
for reference, I have a vpi classic w/soundsmith zephyr now.
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I have a Soundsmith SMMC2 on my Amadeus and no complaints. A sweet combination to my ears. As far as Simplex vs. Amadeus, I can only say it's easier to buy the more expensive table now and upgrade the cart. later than go thru the hassle of having to sell the Simplex to move up to the Amadeus. For all I know, they might be sonic equals. However, if you buy the Simplex, you will always be wondering if the Amadeus and its 10.5" arm is better. Sorry, that's how the mind works. If you've got the funds now, buy the component you really want. I didn't just make this up, I've learned it the hard way. BTW, what wrong with the VPI Classic? It's been pretty well received.....I thought.
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I would keep your VPI combo unless you want to move sideways.
:lol:
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I would keep your VPI combo unless you want to move sideways.
Yeah, that is a funny remark. I'm sure you were only kidding.
I came very close to plopping down 5K for a brand new VPI Aries but opted for the Amadeus instead. I feel like I made the right decision.
Shakey
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simplex with a better cart or amadeus with a lesser cart?
for reference, I have a vpi classic w/soundsmith zephyr now.
I think Mick has hit it on the head here. I've no clue if they're sonic equals, either; but the Amadeus is a proven component, so you'd know right away what you're getting (I'll vouch for it as well). Upgrade the cart later (though that Soundsmith is no slouch!), rather than the deck...unless you like the small footprint of the Simplex.
I was in the same position as you a few short months ago, and was seriously about to pull the trigger on the Simplex (new), when a demo Amadeus with only a few hours on it from a dealer fell into my lap. It was like serendipity. Anyway, I'm glad it worked out that way, because it will indeed be my last turntable (at least until Firebaugh comes up with another dandy, I often say to qualify that remark). Carts? Well, those are simpler to replace...
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I have a Soundsmith SMMC2 on my Amadeus and no complaints. A sweet combination to my ears. As far as Simplex vs. Amadeus, I can only say it's easier to buy the more expensive table now and upgrade the cart. later than go thru the hassle of having to sell the Simplex to move up to the Amadeus. For all I know, they might be sonic equals. However, if you buy the Simplex, you will always be wondering if the Amadeus and its 10.5" arm is better. Sorry, that's how the mind works. If you've got the funds now, buy the component you really want. I didn't just make this up, I've learned it the hard way. BTW, what wrong with the VPI Classic? It's been pretty well received.....I thought.
I'm on my 5th turntable in the last year, I like experimenting as I am somewhat new to all this. I do need to draw the line at some point though and put a cap on the budget, which is why I offered up the comparison.
nothing wrong with the classic at all, but after reading a whole lot it sure seems like the WTA is the one single table that is universally recognized as the best there is in that price range (and above). I looked into them before the classic, but couldn't past the looks and fact there is no cueing arm (I have pretty shaky hands).
I figure I would sell the zephyr and go with something new, something which is known to work well with the WT and the fact there is a fixed mount for the cart.
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I would keep your VPI combo unless you want to move sideways.
:lol:
I like my classic, but it's definitely not reviewed as well as the WT. in fact, you will see plenty of reviews out there where people do not care for the classic. I can't find a single negative review or negative remark about the sound of the WT. I really want to see if it is as magical as it is said to be. the review at pitch perfect audio says a lot to me.
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You would be the perfect candidate for an Amadeus. After having all those tables, you would certainly be in a position to understand why many are choosing the Amadeus for its musical qualities.
While I've changed my mind on the Simplex and do like it very much now, it is bettered by the Amadeus. Size does matter.
It's not discussed much, but the Amadeus can be fitted with an optional cueing device from WTL, for those like yourself that must have one.
And agreed, a better table with decent cartridge will always outplay the reverse.
And don't forget a good IC. Very important.
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It's not discussed much, but the Amadeus can be fitted with an optional cueing device from WTL, for those like yourself that must have one.
And agreed, a better table with decent cartridge will always outplay the reverse.
And don't forget a good IC. Very important.
any more details on that mechanism? I've never seen it mentioned anywhere. I've got the synergistic research tricon analog phono cable now which I think is pretty good.
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Don't know anything about the cueing mechanism, but there is a fingerlift that is optional. I did not use it on mine. Just a finger underneath the arm is enough. Due to the silicon, the arm drops quite slowly onto the record. Always a gentle landing.
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There is indeed an optional cueing device, not just the fingerlift.
Most users go without either.
Votrex, for you it might be a confidence issue. Once you started cueing in naked fashion and gotten used to it, you'd probably never think about it again.
However, you do get the option. And it's perfectly fine if feel you need it.
Because once you had an Amadeus you'll be wanting to play all your records! :)
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Don't know anything about the cueing mechanism, but there is a fingerlift that is optional. I did not use it on mine. Just a finger underneath the arm is enough. Due to the silicon, the arm drops quite slowly onto the record. Always a gentle landing.
How submerged in the fluid is your golf ball? I find that too much makes the sound very closed in. Mine is barely in the goop and has a nice open sound with more air in the soundstage. But being that I have it so little in the goop, the arm definitely does not drop slowly.
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I went with about 1/3 submerged, which seems to be the most commonly recommended.
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Have you tried submerging less to see if the sound opens up a bit or are you happy where you are? I'm wondering if I submerge mine more, but then change the load on my cartridge, will it give me the same opened up sound. Right now I'm loading my EMT at 243ohms. I can't really find any recommendations for what the EMTs normally are loaded at. If anyone knows, I'd love to hear.
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Nope, I haven't tinkered with the depth. Put it at approx 1/3 and left it.
In a more OCD moment, I started a thread suggesting that WTA owners measure silicon depth, column height etc and post that info to share. I didn't do this because I am a set-up novice and did the set-up without the aid of a dealer and thus was not necessarily confident that I had a set-up that was optimal. Enjoyable, yes. But I just lacked the turntable experience to zero in on what might be missing or possible.
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I went with about 1/3 submerged, which seems to be the most commonly recommended.
]That seems to be a good baseline. (1/3 submerged ) When I started, I had the golf ball a tad over half submerged. Realized it was impossible to set the tracking force on my Soundsmith which only tracks at 1.3 g in the first place. The silicon fluid was too dominate and the arm was not moving fluidly. I'd start out at 1.3g and after an hour I'd be at 0.4g or believe or not, 2.1g. At that point I knew the diving bell was too deep. Up to around 1/3 submerged and all was cured. May try 1/4 down the road.
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any more details on that mechanism? I've never seen it mentioned anywhere. I've got the synergistic research tricon analog phono cable now which I think is pretty good.
I was curious about the an arm lift mechanism as well. It's only a $75 option if you think it necessary. I passed on it when I ordered the Amadeus and now I'm very comfortable cueing by hand. The guys here told me as much about a month ago. The dynamic of the silicon fluid makes manual cueing much easier than a conventional arm. As far as the phono cable is concerned, I'd stick with what you have. I tried 4 different IC's with the Amadeus and they all let the magic of this table shine through. It would probably sound good with a coat hanger.....shielded of course.
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Interesting logic, to be sure..
I only mentioned the cueing option for vortex. Just didn't want him denying himself the pleasures of nicely retrieved analog grooves.
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This is turning out to be a great thread. I, too, have mine submerged about a third (I think it was purely by accident...but it sounds excellent).
I agree with threadkiller here; I do believe this would be your last 'table, as I believe it will be for many (like I said, me included). If you can get past the looks (which I'd have to disagree with you there; I think it is a very beautiful piece of engineering...it looks better in person), and find a cueing mechanism, it is the way to go. This is assuming it sounds better than the Simplex.
I've owned seven or so turntables in the past three years (still own two of them; two were different levels/upgrades of a Linn LP12), and all were considered very good and well respected. The Amadeus more or less trounces them top-to-bottom, and it is the easiest to set up as well; about as set-it-and-forget-it as you can get.
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If you can get past the looks (which I'd have to disagree with you there; I think it is a very beautiful piece of engineering...it looks better in person), and find a cueing mechanism, it is the way to go. This is assuming it sounds better than the Simplex.
sounds like with the fluid I will be OK lowering it down. I just kind of have a thing against all black tables. the versalex sure looks nice but I don't think I could spend that much extra just for the look of it. I'm definitely interested in trying out one of these tables.
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Very good advice!
Yes, that's how I hear it as well..
Get a great table for relatively little money, if you like add the Auditorium mat and WTL DPS ( external power supply), use a decent cartridge and IC ( apparently one that doesn't hum- and I don't care who this Morrow is, all I can think of is Vic Morrow) and don't get your ball too far down in the goo ( that's what she said).
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how is the azimuth adjusted?
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how is the azimuth adjusted?
It's pretty simple...you just turn the azimuth adjustment collar (the knob or 'cylinder'...the one you slide onto the suspension rod where the ball/tonearm/nylon go) slightly left or right, after it has been 'twisted' on. You can even do it on-the-fly as a record is playing.
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True. The WTL way is to flip the strobe disc over, use the reflection from it to make your adjustment. Either way, a piece of cake...
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True. The WTL way is to flip the strobe disc over, use the reflection from it to make your adjustment. Either way, a piece of cake...
That's cool...I didn't know that. Thanks for that bit of info.
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does anyone use a record clamp on their WT? the spindle sure seems as though it was made long enough for one but I've never heard it mentioned.
and here's an amadeus with that cuing arm option:
http://www.blackpearls-online.de/shop/amadeus_10.jpg
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does anyone use a record clamp on their WT? the spindle sure seems as though it was made long enough for one but I've never heard it mentioned.
and here's an amadeus with that cuing arm option:
http://www.blackpearls-online.de/shop/amadeus_10.jpg
When I assembled the Amadeus and perhaps when you assemble the Amadeus, you'll see that the platter/spindle/ bearing "floating" dynamic does not invite the use of a clamp....neither the weight of the clamp or the downward force. I wouldn't let a clamp of any ilk get within 10 feet of the Amadeus. Just my opinion, but I'm stick'in with it.
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You're not alone in your opinion. Mr F and Mr P definitely say no clamp of any kind, not even the Pig. Which is a blessing not to have to fool with.
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I like my classic, but it's definitely not reviewed as well as the WT. in fact, you will see plenty of reviews out there where people do not care for the classic. I can't find a single negative review or negative remark about the sound of the WT. I really want to see if it is as magical as it is said to be. the review at pitch perfect audio says a lot to me.
I've heard both side by side, the WTA is more lucid and transparent, the Classic is punchier, better built and easier to upgrade.
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Then enjoy it.
The classic isn't a bad table at all, but as you say, it's punchier, which means it's colored in sound, and it, like the Linn, is a flavor I no longer prefer.
It also cannot retrieve music out of the grooves like a WTL can. Once I heard that, there was no going back.
Plus, as you say, it's built at a price point, with some perceived need to upgrade.
There's nothing to upgrade with a WTL, except your system.
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I've heard both side by side, the WTA is more lucid and transparent, the Classic is punchier, better built and easier to upgrade.
That being said, why would anyone even consider the classic?
Shakey
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do you actually see printing on the golf ball like "top flite" or whatever? I looked at the manual and the setup pics show it. I was thinking they at least used something generic.
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do you actually see printing on the golf ball like "top flite" or whatever? I looked at the manual and the setup pics show it. I was thinking they at least used something generic.
No.
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It is plain...
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Then enjoy it.
The classic isn't a bad table at all, but as you say, it's punchier, which means it's colored in sound, and it, like the Linn, is a flavor I no longer prefer.
It also cannot retrieve music out of the grooves like a WTL can. Once I heard that, there was no going back.
Plus, as you say, it's built at a price point, with some perceived need to upgrade.
There's nothing to upgrade with a WTL, except your system.
Boy that pretty much says it all. I can think of only 3 ways to improve the Amadeus. A better cartridge, perhaps a different mat ( OK, maybe an isolation base of some sort) and the optional power supply. All the homework and research has been done and this is the finished product. VPI, on the other hand has created what I'm sure is a profitable upgrade path for just about every turntable they've ever produced. Years ago I had a VPI HW 19/ ET II. I could literally have spent thousands of dollars on VPI upgrades for this thing. Let's see.....SAMA stand alone motor, Mk.4 platter, stainless steel outer ring and on and on. Bottom line....I'm sure this is a big part of their marketing stategy. BTW, this rig was totally outclassed in the end by a humble Nottingham Interspace/ Spacearm set-up. The Classic was introduced as a $3000 turntable and now the "new" Classic is $6000. Could there possibly be an upgrade path from the $3000 table to the $6000 version?
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Punchier doesn't necessarily mean more coloured, in this context it simply means it has reproduces dynamic contrasts better than the WTA.
:lol:
The original $3000 VPI Classic is still available.
The $6000 one is a new model.
http://www.vpiindustries.com/series-classic.htm
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Totally totally disagree on that, code.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but it seems like you're looking for something that is lacking in the rest of the system you heard it in.
Like when I listen with guys who turn the loudness button on at a high level, or people who turn up their subs too high into the mix.
Like I said, if you prefer that type of sound that's fine, doesn't mean it's right or for us that chose a WTL.
I, too, had a VPI once, extremely happy I no longer do!
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Also, forgot to ask, sorry, but what is your point?
Do you have both an Amadeus and a VPI classic?
If only the latter, why are you on here?
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Dynamic contrasts are one of the things my Amadeus does better than any table I have heard. And it's not just the difference between soft and loud, but between loud and louder. The dynamic shadings are more pronounced and you can hear the gradations as they increase.
I have never heard any VPI do that.
Shakey
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Nothing wrong with the system I heard the tables in (ARC, Avalon).
Ex- Amadeus, VPI Aries owner.
Here to persuade the OP to keep his VPI
:lol:
To use a car anthology;
Amadeus = Porsche 911 GT3
VPI Classic = 911 Turbo.
Both Amadeus and VPI Classic have similar back-to-basics design philosophies.
Both are good.
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I still disagree with you.
And in case you haven't noticed, this isnt Vinyl Asylum nor a VPI owners page.
This is for WTL owners and interested parties.
Or maybe you can still stay on without getting the boot and maybe learn something. :)
What's always a shame about forums is we can't collectively hear the systems or pieces that are being commented about. I swear if you heard it properly setup, you might think differently about an Amadeus compared to others.
The great sound always comes thru regardless of system.
I can spot a VPI or LINN as soon as it starts to play. And while I can certainly enjoy music from both, they don't serve the music as well as an Amadeus. End of discussion.
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I've got to say, if/when I get a WTA I am expecting a pretty significant upgrade over what I have based off comments on this thread. I made the mistake of buying a modified Rega P5 after some impressive forum boasting and that was the biggest piece of junk (in sound/build quality) that I ever had!
has anyone used a Zephyr cart on the WTA? I've not heard of anyone doing so and I question if it will work well with the fixed mounting. to get the right overhang that cart mounts fairly far back on the classic tonearm.
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Can you take it by a dealer to try?
You might send Mike Pranka an email at Dynavector USA.
Many many cartridges have been tried on the Amadeus and none have failed or had an issue that I know of.
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I've got to say, if/when I get a WTA I am expecting a pretty significant upgrade over what I have based off comments on this thread. I made the mistake of buying a modified Rega P5 after some impressive forum boasting and that was the biggest piece of junk (in sound/build quality) that I ever had!
has anyone used a Zephyr cart on the WTA? I've not heard of anyone doing so and I question if it will work well with the fixed mounting. to get the right overhang that cart mounts fairly far back on the classic tonearm.
I have no idea how the Zephyr compares to my SMMC2. You'd be wise to ask Peter at Soundsmith. This being said, the SMMC2 sings on my Amadeus and I don't see why the Zephyr won't either.
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not a huge deal if it doesn't mate well with it, but my phonostage is MM only so I would need to replace the Zephyr with something similar in output. what MM carts have people used?
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Which phono stage?
I love the Cartridge Man cartridges on an Amadeus.
One of my fav mm.
Or high output Dynacector 20.
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not a huge deal if it doesn't mate well with it, but my phonostage is MM only so I would need to replace the Zephyr with something similar in output. what MM carts have people used?
No need at this time. If you go to the Soundsmith website, Peter makes a point of saying the Zephyr works with a wide variety of tonearms ...not just VPI. The range of tonearm mass (8-30) mentioned pretty much covers all bases( arms) I'm aware of.
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Which phono stage?
I love the Cartridge Man cartridges on an Amadeus.
One of my fav mm.
Or high output Dynacector 20.
K&K Audio Maxxed-Out
I'll check out those carts, haven't heard of the Cartridge Man.
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Nothing wrong with the system I heard the tables in (ARC, Avalon).
Ex- Amadeus, VPI Aries owner.
Here to persuade the OP to keep his VPI
:lol:
To use a car anthology;
Amadeus = Porsche 911 GT3
VPI Classic = 911 Turbo.
Both Amadeus and VPI Classic have similar back-to-basics design philosophies.
Both are good.
The designs are in no way similar. Firebaugh's approach is totally unique and innovative ( way out of the box). VPI's design approach breaks no new ground by comparison. As far as the OP is concerned..... if he were happy with his Classic, he wouldn't be over here on the Well Tempered Forum. And if he was really happy with his Classic, he won't care if the Amadeus even existed.
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K&K Audio Maxxed-Out
You have a superb phono stage.......... :icon_lol:
Shakey
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You have a superb phono stage.......... :icon_lol:
Shakey
yeah, I am surprised that more people don't use them. I guess kevin does no advertising or forum participation though. I had an EAR 834P before this and the K&K handily beats it everywhere, a substantial upgrade. my unit has the stepped attenuator option and I run it direct to my BAT VK55.
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No preamp?? Oops, now we've stepped into even a bigger arena...
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that is correct, vinyl only rig with no pre-amp.
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Well, I do like the vinyl only part :lol:
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previous setup was a Cary SLI-80 with the K&K (no volume control at that point). connected direct to the BAT is a better sound, for sure.
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I still disagree with you.
And in case you haven't noticed, this isnt Vinyl Asylum nor a VPI owners page.
This is for WTL owners and interested parties.
Or maybe you can still stay on without getting the boot and maybe learn something. :)
I swear if you heard it properly setup, you might think differently about an Amadeus compared to others.
Just answering the OP's query as to Simplex or Amadeus vis-a-vis VPI Classic.
You assume because I don't have the same reaction to the masses that the table I heard was not setup properly ?
You're right, this isn't VA, I thought this was a more enlightened place.
:lol:
The designs are in no way similar. Firebaugh's approach is totally unique and innovative ( way out of the box). VPI's design approach breaks no new ground by comparison. As far as the OP is concerned..... if he were happy with his Classic, he wouldn't be over here on the Well Tempered Forum. And if he was really happy with his Classic, he won't care if the Amadeus even existed.
I said their back to basics design philosophies were similar not actual design.
Do some homework on past WT, VPI tables.
Take for example their drive systems, both previous models used separate motor drive systems, both current models have discarded that for the simplicity of a motor fixed to the plinth.
What's really new on the Amadeus ?
There's nothing that hasn't been seen before on past Well Tempereds.
The real innovation is a cost-effective simplification of the original Well Tempered template.
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Getting back on topic, I'd say Amadeus with a cheaper cartridge and then upgrade the cartridge when I could swing it.
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Gentleman please....
Both the VPI and WTL are great choices and what will appeal to one won't appeal to another: as always audition and personal preference are subjective matters.
@ Code: it is quite rude to come onto the WTL circle and start proclaiming the superiority of a VPI. Such a course will inevitably produce a negative response and is akin to trolling. Please apologise and go about your business.
My own bias, as a Simplex owner, is a Simplex with a Dyna XX2 - P75 II phono. I have this combo and find it very satisfying. I also have a 20x2 H that I like as well.
Having said that, I note the OP is on his 5th TT in the last year - so obviously something is seriously amiss....set up perhaps? or system matching? An eg RP3 can sound marvellous with the right system and cart. No need to spend a fortune for great sound.
Happy hi fi.
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Having said that, I note the OP is on his 5th TT in the last year - so obviously something is seriously amiss....set up perhaps? or system matching?
Nope, you're wrong. My system sounds great as it is, but isn't there always something better? I've also got two new sets of speakers on the way. I like experimenting.
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Oh...my apologies. No offence meant.
I suppose there is always something better - I don't know - its not really a priority for me.
Have fun.
Kind Regards
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You assume because I don't have the same reaction to the masses that the table I heard was not setup properly ?
Yes, that concerns me greatly. While it is fairly easy for most anyone to do the basic setup, I've seen several poorly setup, and from a few posts on this circle I have my doubts as well. What if something wasn't dialed in correctly? How would you discern faulty setup or bad table design?
There's nothing that hasn't been seen before on past Well Tempereds.
The real innovation is a cost-effective simplification of the original Well Tempered template.
Now here we have no need to argue or voice opinion. You are simply wrong in your assumption. Mr F has worked over 20 yrs on what finally came out as the Amadeus. Cost-effective simplication? Hell yes. Same design as earlier tables before Transparent ruined them? Hell no.
The Amadeus is light years ahead in musical performance to his other tables.
And very clearly ahead of any VPI.
That's not opinion, that's fact.
See, we are enlightened. By Bill Firebaugh.
It's still a pity we can't listen together.
It usually solves everything. :thumb:
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'What's really new on the Amadeus ?
There's nothing that hasn't been seen before on past Well Tempereds.
The real innovation is a cost-effective simplification of the original Well Tempered template.'
Hi,i'm a WT reference user before,now is Amadeus,and now the different is the Tonearm,the Amadeus is better than Reference,but on the other hand,i like the WT reference much than Amadeus,just table :D :duh:
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Agree. But the bearing-platter- motor design is better on the Amadeus as well.
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Agree. But the bearing-platter- motor design is better on the Amadeus as well.
Hi,i like the Reference platter much than Amadeus,although it's easy to falling but the Reference platter is isolate,so may be the black ground much black(no direct compare can not sure),on the other hand i really like the DPS power supply,it's great, :D
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the choice has been made, I bought an Amadeus today.
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Yippee!
Let us know what happens when you get it.
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Good choice! :green:
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the choice has been made, I bought an Amadeus today.
Congratulations - what a wonderful turntable you will be getting. Have fun! :banana piano:
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right choice :D
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just set up my second hand WTA and only roughed in VTA, VTF, azimuth, and the goop level. it sounds really quite good. even at this stage of the setup I would say it sounds better than my VPI Classic 1 and that's not a knock on the VPI at all.
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So who are you apologizing to? :lol:
This isn't the board of VPI.
If you enjoy it more it's better, to you, and most of us on this particular forum.
So enjoy!
Do report back one thing, after you've had the table for a while.
Do you find yourself playing more records, not just because it's a new item, but because the music's more enjoyable, engaging, and that you didn't know your records could present themselves like that? :)
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Wow! How did you find a used WTA? I've been following this thread with great interest as my mind was pretty made up about an Amadeus, and your reaction is icing on the cake. All that has been said here about how it compares to other really fine tables, let's me know I am in for quite a treat coming from a Music Hall mmf-7. Congratulations...What cartridge are you using?
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So who are you apologizing to? :lol:
This isn't the board of VPI.
I'm just saying the VPI is no slouch at all! someone would be happy with either table. believe me, if the VPI was garbage (like Rega) I would say it.
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Wow! How did you find a used WTA? I've been following this thread with great interest as my mind was pretty made up about an Amadeus, and your reaction is icing on the cake. All that has been said here about how it compares to other really fine tables, let's me know I am in for quite a treat coming from a Music Hall mmf-7. Congratulations...What cartridge are you using?
I started this thread and one fell into my lap via a PM. I've had a MMF-5.1 in the past. for now I am using a Soundsmith Zephyr. there are pluses and minuses to each the WTA and VPI in my opinion, it's just that all the pluses are on the sound side for the WTA. some things are better on the VPI though, from a hardware perspective.
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Much gear looks nice... Then you hear it, and who cares.. If audiophiles bought with their ears, well, we'd almost have a different hobby.
Enjoy, and please report back your musical findings.
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Much gear looks nice... Then you hear it, and who cares.. If audiophiles bought with their ears, well, we'd almost have a different hobby.
Enjoy, and please report back your musical findings.
I didn't mean in looks, I meant functionality.
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Hmmm. I'm confused. Sorry.
I understood hardware. Sure, the VPI is a flashier table, for most.
Functionality? Since the WTA sounds better, I'd say it's functioning better.
Right? I'm pretty daft these days, maybe I missed something.
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Hmmm. I'm confused. Sorry.
I understood hardware. Sure, the VPI is a flashier table, for most.
Functionality? Since the WTA sounds better, I'd say it's functioning better.
Right? I'm pretty daft these days, maybe I missed something.
yeah I guess you are.
func·tion·al·i·ty/ˌfəNGkSHəˈnalətē/
Noun: The quality of being suited to serve a purpose well; practicality:
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here's a list of MY observations between the WTA and Classic 1 with the Soundsmith Counter-Intuitive (you'd be crazy not to spend $50 on this).
sound - yes, in the end the most important thing and the WTA wins. better bass, more life-like, more texture, more detail, smoother, blacker background (except one thing, see below!). I thought the VPI sounded amazing, and I still think it does, the WTA just cranks it up a notch or two. it has that magic that really draws you in. I think I have reached the end of the line as far as tables go.
belt - in reference to the above post about blacker background, the belt makes noise every time that stupid knot passes around! at first I was like "what's all this static popping with no record playing?". then I turned on the light and can see it's all related to the belt. what am I doing wrong here? I can't imagine people would put up with this and not comment on it. it also looks pretty darn retarded seeing a knot and the loose ends spinning around the platter.
feet - I can't stand tables that don't have adjustable feet. my audio rack is very heavy and not easy to level out to perfection. WTA gets a minus for not being adjustable but VPI gets a minus too since the nubs on the bottom of the feet are of such a hard compound that I see it scarred my table top from twisting them.
VTA - definitely better on the VPI with the ships wheel adjustment. loosen an allen bolt, spin the wheel, and you raise and lower the arm exactly where you want it with no disruption to other settings. on the WTA you are adjusting the height of the suspension post, which also twists as you are trying to get it where you want it, not to mention messes with the height of the ball in the cup. it's also not easy to move in tiny increments.
VTF - definitely better on the VPI since you have 3 levels of adjustment. put the weight in roughly the right spot, slide the Counter-Intuitive to get it exact or very close (and be able to reference a marking where it is), then use the bolt at the end of the tonearm for ultra fine zeroing in. on the WTA you are left with only the weight and no point of reference for marking your spot.
azimuth - better on the VPI if you are doing it only by sight, but if you have a fozgometer it shouldn't matter much. again it's nice though being able to reference the markings on the Counter-Intuitive. to me it seems like it would be difficult to get the azimuth perfect on the WTA by sight. I did my VPI by sight using the supplied balance beam and an index card. I was able to get it to near perfect compared to what the fozgometer said.
cartridge alignment - man, this is one huge plus of the WTA! I have very shaky hands, especially when trying to concentrate on something, so installing carts has always been tough for me. sometimes I would spend hours trying to get it perfect. with the WTA you bolt it on and go, a matter of seconds. I thought for sure my Zephyr would run into issues with not having the right overhang since on my VPI it sits way back in the headshell. not at all, it seems to work perfect.
tonearm wiring - partially due to my shaky hands, but this stuff is scary thin. I thought for sure I was going to break it. the WTA and VPI have similar metal mini DIN connectors that plug into a jack on the table. the VPI has a better connector. it snaps in with an audible click and has a sturdier connection than the WTA. there's also marks showing you how to line it up. I'm sure the WTA is making a fine connection, but it's just kind of wiggly sitting there. not exactly confidence inspiring.
power switch - my god, how VPI can sell (and keep selling) a $2750 turntable that has a huge POP if you cut the power without being muted is beyond me. I've heard there's a $1 fix that VPI tells people to make by using a cap from Radio Shack. why would they not install this themselves? I'd sometimes forget to mute before shutting off, thankfully the WTA does not have this issue.
construction - both tables are well made with decent materials (they're not a Rega). I like the look of the VPI, but the WTA is better in person than I thought it would be. might be nice having a table where there's no chance of throwing my back out from lifting it. the VPI is a beast.
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Well yippee...
like I said, the WTA is practical-a set and forget table, no clamp, no cueing fuss.
And since it makes one want to really play more records, it's functioning on a much higher plain than most tables.
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Well yippee...
like I said, the WTA is practical-a set and forget table, no clamp, no cueing fuss.
And since it makes one want to really play more records, it's functioning on a much higher plain than most tables.
Yes, the Amadeus has me playing vinyl as a first choice. Hasn't happened in years until this table came along. Yes, "the clamp" issue......hopefully this is never mentioned again. If you really study the WTA and the dynamics of the "floating platter", you don't invite a clamp to the party.
Finally I'm sure a few of us here were holding our collective breath waiting for Vortrex's verdict. I for one, gave the guy more than one push toward the Amadeus.......with his money of course and my experience with VPI dating back to my HW 19 Mk.II. That said, looks like we might hopefully have a fairy tale ending
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what sort of distance is everyone using between the bottom of the ball and the cup? I am probably around 1/8" or 3/16".
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MW wrote "Yes, "the clamp" issue......hopefully this is never mentioned again. If you really study the WTA and the dynamics of the "floating platter", you don't invite a clamp to the party."
Guess I will have to sell my WTC and purchase a WTA one day.
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You still have a fine table.
Yes, having had both the Classic and Reference, the Amadeus is truly wonderful.
What's still remarkable, and of great benefit to someone like yourself, is that you don't have to spend a fortune to upgrade. Before the WTA, you'd switch, in your price range, for a different flavor. You'd have to spend loads to get better sound.
Now one no longer has to.
To show you my knuckleheaded thinking, the only table I even aspire to is the 30k Shindo Garrard.
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what sort of distance is everyone using between the bottom of the ball and the cup? I am probably around 1/8" or 3/16".
If you never feel the ball bottoming out on the cup or edge of the cup when moving the arm, you've probably achieved a decent "cushion" thanks to the thickness of the supplied fluid. 1/8" is a good guess considering the fluid thickness.
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one poor design I noticed on the WTA last night is that the extra fine tonearm cable exits the underside of the arm directly above the metal rim of the ball cup. why would they do this? the wire seems awfully close to the rim, to the point of touching it when lifting the arm. it would have been so easy to make it exit a little further back, there's so much space. wonder why they did it this way?
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one poor design I noticed on the WTA last night is that the extra fine tonearm cable exits the underside of the arm directly above the metal rim of the ball cup. why would they do this? the wire seems awfully close to the rim, to the point of touching it when lifting the arm. it would have been so easy to make it exit a little further back, there's so much space. wonder why they did it this way?
I just checked that out. The point where the tonearm wire leaves the arm tube seems to have a tiny protective plastic sleeve covering the actual tonearm wire. When I manually lift the tonearm from the rest to cue up a record, the closest it ( the plastic sleeve) comes to the edge of the ball cup is about 1/8". At rest, the distance between the cup's edge and the wire is about 3/8" on my table. That said, the edge of the cup and the point at which the wire leaves the tonearm are on the same vertical plane. Ideally would have been better if the wire left the tonearm about 1/4" further back, but maybe there's a reason for this location.
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one poor design I noticed on the WTA last night is that the extra fine tonearm cable exits the underside of the arm directly above the metal rim of the ball cup. why would they do this? the wire seems awfully close to the rim, to the point of touching it when lifting the arm. it would have been so easy to make it exit a little further back, there's so much space. wonder why they did it this way?
One further thought might be to lower the "ball cup" a bit to allow a more comfortable clearance....then add a touch more damping fluid to get back to where the ball is once again 1/3(plus or minus) submerged.
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Thanks Vortrex for this thread. I am in the process of trying to decide between a VPI and WT and this thread helped a lot.
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one poor design I noticed on the WTA last night is that the extra fine tonearm cable exits the underside of the arm directly above the metal rim of the ball cup. why would they do this? the wire seems awfully close to the rim, to the point of touching it when lifting the arm. it would have been so easy to make it exit a little further back, there's so much space. wonder why they did it this way?
Probably because it doesn't matter. My wire has never come close to touching the cup. It is stiff enough that it stays suspended in air. I would imagine that if the wire is touching the cup, simply move the wire and it will stay in it's place.
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Probably because it doesn't matter. My wire has never come close to touching the cup. It is stiff enough that it stays suspended in air. I would imagine that if the wire is touching the cup, simply move the wire and it will stay in it's place.
x1
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X2
(Snap!)
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You still have a fine table.
Yes, having had both the Classic and Reference, the Amadeus is truly wonderful.
What's still remarkable, and of great benefit to someone like yourself, is that you don't have to spend a fortune to upgrade. Before the WTA, you'd switch, in your price range, for a different flavor. You'd have to spend loads to get better sound.
Now one no longer has to.
To show you my knuckleheaded thinking, the only table I even aspire to is the 30k Shindo Garrard.
Im a knucklehead too. The Shindo Garrard is the TT I want too. "If a were a rich man..."
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Well, here's the story on that.
As great as the WTL is, in an all Shindo system it doesn't work. It's all about the Shindo voicing.
A Shindo is a Shindo is a Shindo.
So, until you have the money to go all Shindo, stick with WTL.
And be very wary of these reviewers, and they're out there, that mix and match. Theyre deaf!
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x1
I believe they came to their senses and moved the wire in the new design, was an obvious design flaw.
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Well, here's the story on that.
As great as the WTL is, in an all Shindo system it doesn't work. It's all about the Shindo voicing.
A Shindo is a Shindo is a Shindo.
So, until you have the money to go all Shindo, stick with WTL.
And be very wary of these reviewers, and they're out there, that mix and match. Theyre deaf!
Pray tell, why wouldn't a WTA work in an all Shindo system? Having trouble getting my head around that. I can see speakers, carts and electronics. But have trouble seeing how a TT would affect things.
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As I said, voicing of the Shindo gear. Step out of that voicing, and all that you spent your money on doesn't add up.
Go hear it . Then you'll know in an instant.
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One of these days I will head into Pitch Perfect to hear Shindo. He is also a WTA dealer, IIRC.
Vortrex, I know you were near Pitch Perfect before they moved. Did you ever have a chance to compare a WTA and Shindo TT in a Shindo setup?
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doesn't make any sense. PP was recommending a Shindo phono/pre to mate with my Line Magnetic and said it works great.
when I demo'd the Line Magnetic gear at PP it was with a Shindo phono/pre and a Versalex. I've never heard the Shindo TT.
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We're not talking cd here...only tables.
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We're not talking cd here...only tables.
Who mentioned CDs?
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Your partner in crime did.. Line magnetic...
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Oops... Maybe he only meant the pre power...
The CD player is quite something....