AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: sanlanman on 8 Oct 2008, 12:55 am
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Now that I have ordered V3s, I am curious as to what the other Salk owners use for speaker cables and any particular reason why. I am familiar with the factions on this sometimes hotly debated issue. One faction says anything more than lamp cord is overkill and the other faction extreme is that megabuck cables offer improvements in small but valuable increments and nuances. I hope this thread does not degenerate into flame war, so please no bashing or disputing the merits, or lack of merits of somebody elses choice of cable.
I am just looking to get a feel for speaker cables, hopefully reasonably priced ones, to consider.
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I'm using Gregg Straley's Reality cables with my HT3's:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=51700.msg462733
http://www.realitycables.com/
About as good as it gets at the price.
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Make sure you ask Frank Van Alstine what cables he uses with his HT3s over at AVA :)
(and don't forget to duck!)
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I use Radio Shack 16 Ga Mega Cable because the polarity is clearly marked (red vs. clear), it doesn't cost very much, and the Rat Shack is next door to my favorite Chinese take-out. Oh--it also sounds like any other decent wire.
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Good cables don't have to be megabucks. Lampcord sucks btw. Clearly can hear a difference btwn that and silver for instance (which I have done with a room of people). Many times copper sounds like copper no matter the price but silver sounds different than copper. Many silvers sound the same. I have found ridge street audio poiema silver to be non bright and fulfilling.
I'd recommend seeing if you like silver versus copper. There are bad silvers like lampcord can be bad copper if that makes sense. I'm typing on a blackberry from india right now.
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Although I don't have my Salk speakers yet (they're in transit right now... :drool:), I have a set of Belden speaker wire I intend to use with them. I was satisfied with Belden coax wire assembled by Blue Jeans Cables for inteconnects, so I thought I'd try out Belden speaker wire, too. Zebra Cables offers Belden speaker wire with a nice variety of termination choices, and the price is still reasonable, so that's what I have. So... I have Belden all around: interconnects from Blue Jeans and speaker wire from Zebra.
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I bi-wire with Blue Jeans Cable. 2 sets of BJC 10ga. Belden 5T00UP terminated with bananas and piggy backed.
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Make sure you ask Frank Van Alstine what cables he uses with his HT3s over at AVA :)
(and don't forget to duck!)
I will be sure to do that........NOT. I have met Frank once and check in on the AVAHIFI forum here. I don't know exactly what he uses, but based on his no nonsense attitude, I would assume it is some plain vanilla type of wire.
Thanks guys, keep the replies coming.
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About two years ago I overheard a woman at RMAF asking Frank what kind of speaker cable he used. "Rope," was his reply. She stormed out of the room in disgust. The story spread until one day Frank received rope in the mail. A customer had woven wire through pieces of rope and sent them to Frank as a joke. Now that's what he uses (really). I think it is thick hemp rope (the thicker the better).
So you don't have to ask Frank - now you know rest of the story.
- Jim
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About two years ago I overheard a woman at RMAF asking Frank what kind of speaker cable he used. "Rope," was his reply. She stormed out of the room in disgust. The story spread until one day Frank received rope in the mail. A customer had woven wire through pieces of rope and sent them to Frank as a joke. Now that's what he uses (really). I think it is thick hemp rope (the thicker the better).
So you don't have to ask Frank - now you know rest of the story.
- Jim
That was my brother. :lol:
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About two years ago I overheard a woman at RMAF asking Frank what kind of speaker cable he used. "Rope," was his reply. She stormed out of the room in disgust. The story spread until one day Frank received rope in the mail. A customer had woven wire through pieces of rope and sent them to Frank as a joke. Now that's what he uses (really). I think it is thick hemp rope (the thicker the better).
So you don't have to ask Frank - now you know rest of the story.
- Jim
I sure hope he brings his thickest gauge rope to RMAF this weekend. I'm not flying all the way out to Denver to hear your speakers fed by girly-boy hemp. Speaking of which--is anyone going to be there besides Jim and me (And Frank)? I'll finally get to hear the ST ribbons in stereo.
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About two years ago I overheard a woman at RMAF asking Frank what kind of speaker cable he used. "Rope," was his reply. She stormed out of the room in disgust. The story spread until one day Frank received rope in the mail. A customer had woven wire through pieces of rope and sent them to Frank as a joke. Now that's what he uses (really). I think it is thick hemp rope (the thicker the better).
So you don't have to ask Frank - now you know rest of the story.
- Jim
That was my brother. :lol:
Ah ha, that finally explains the 'magic' speaker cables Frank was talking about. I never caught the final info on the specifics, though I remember you noting they were from your brother.
I'm using simple RCA 16GA copper speaker wire from HD. I 'built' a number of sets of the White Lightning Moonshine wires discussed in depth elsewhere on the Circle. I did note a difference in the sound, but not being sufficiently knowledgeable on electrical issues was concerned about Frank's capacitance vs inductance discussion. So back to simple, avoid any possible issues. As the ears age there's only so much subtlety that can be detected. So will leave those finer points to more knowing/hearing parties.
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Ah ha, that finally explains the 'magic' speaker cables Frank was talking about. I never caught the final info on the specifics, though I remember you noting they were from your brother.
Sorry I never sent you another pm after AudioKarma explaining........
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About two years ago I overheard a woman at RMAF asking Frank what kind of speaker cable he used. "Rope," was his reply. She stormed out of the room in disgust. The story spread until one day Frank received rope in the mail. A customer had woven wire through pieces of rope and sent them to Frank as a joke. Now that's what he uses (really). I think it is thick hemp rope (the thicker the better).
So you don't have to ask Frank - now you know rest of the story.
- Jim
Hilarious! :lol:
I am one of those guys that doesn't believe in expensive cables. Resistance is resistance, and as long as their is no signal loss you should be good to go. With that said, I do believe some materials have lower resistance, so silver may be a good way to go (though it will be more expensive). I don't use lamp cord, but rather bluejeans cable and audioquest 12 gauge.
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I, also, fall into the camp of people who use what works well and doesn't break the bank. Here's a link to what I use.
http://www.impactacoustics.com/product.asp?cat_id=3102&sku=29176 (http://www.impactacoustics.com/product.asp?cat_id=3102&sku=29176)
It works very well with my HT3's, looks good and is priced right.
Regards,
Bob
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I sure hope he brings his thickest gauge rope to RMAF this weekend. I'm not flying all the way out to Denver to hear your speakers fed by girly-boy hemp. Speaking of which--is anyone going to be there besides Jim and me (And Frank)? I'll finally get to hear the ST ribbons in stereo.
I sure hope the gauge is thick enough. We're driving cross country for the next two days and I certainly wouldn't like to arrive in Denver to find some wimpy twine. For those attending RMAF this year, we'll see you (rooom 2005) on Friday and put Frank's rope to the test (maybe we can even do an A/B comparo with some more expensive cables).
- Jim
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I've heard that twine is actually better than thicker rope because of the "skin effect" of larger diameter fibers. Hemp is worst because the electrons become way too mellow and unfocused during their long strange trip toward the speaker.
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Something recently was published in the medical literature showing that expensive placebo medicine seems to work better than cheap placebo medicine.
RL Waber, B Shiv, Z Carmon, & D Ariely Journal of the American Medical Association vol 299: pp1016-17; 2008
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/299/9/1016 (http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/299/9/1016)
82 volunteers were recruited and paid $30 each to test a new pain killer drug. 41 volunteers were given pills that were said to cost $2.50 a pill, and the other 41 received the same pills, but were told they cost 10¢ a pill. All volunteers took identical placebo pills that had no pain killer at all in them.
Each participant received test electrical shocks at the wrist to identify his/her maximum tolerated pain level. After that, participants received the test shocks in 2.5 volt increments between 0 volts and their individual maximum tolerated voltage. They rated their perceived pain on a scale from "no pain at all" to "the worst pain imaginable". Stimulation at each voltage level was carried out twice for each participant before and after taking the pill. The change in reaction to the stimulation was assessed. The group that took the expensive placebo pill clearly thought it worked better than the group that took the cheap pill.
(http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6376&d=1223063698)
Something similar was found with wine tasting when the same wine was presented to tasters as $90 a bottle or as $10 a bottle http://news.cnet.com/8301-13580_3-9849949-39.html.
Perhaps the makers of expensive speaker cable have known this for a long time, that expensive wires "sound better" than cheap wires. They seem to make a good living depending on this.
Usual Disclaimer
I do not intend to insult anyone who does have expensive cables or prefers expensive wine. I only point this out because it is widely understood that differences in price have a genuine effect on people's perception of performance or quality. Maybe something similar is going on in audio.
I use 12 g zip cord on my SongTowers.
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i'm still using CAT5 from radio shack clearing bind.i paid $10 for 100ft roll.it's work good for me since i single driver speakers from omega.
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I've heard that twine is actually better than thicker rope because of the "skin effect" of larger diameter fibers. Hemp is worst because the electrons become way too mellow and unfocused during their long strange trip toward the speaker.
Good for listening to some LIVE Dead. :lol: 8)
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I've heard that twine is actually better than thicker rope because of the "skin effect" of larger diameter fibers. Hemp is worst because the electrons become way too mellow and unfocused during their long strange trip toward the speaker.
ROFLMAO!!!
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Something recently was published in the medical literature showing that expensive placebo medicine seems to work better than cheap placebo medicine.
RL Waber, B Shiv, Z Carmon, & D Ariely Journal of the American Medical Association vol 299: pp1016-17; 2008
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/299/9/1016 (http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/299/9/1016)
82 volunteers were recruited and paid $30 each to test a new pain killer drug. 41 volunteers were given pills that were said to cost $2.50 a pill, and the other 41 received the same pills, but were told they cost 10¢ a pill. All volunteers took identical placebo pills that had no pain killer at all in them.
Each participant received test electrical shocks at the wrist to identify his/her maximum tolerated pain level. After that, participants received the test shocks in 2.5 volt increments between 0 volts and their individual maximum tolerated voltage. They rated their perceived pain on a scale from "no pain at all" to "the worst pain imaginable". Stimulation at each voltage level was carried out twice for each participant before and after taking the pill. The change in reaction to the stimulation was assessed. The group that took the expensive placebo pill clearly thought it worked better than the group that took the cheap pill.
(http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6376&d=1223063698)
Something similar was found with wine tasting when the same wine was presented to tasters as $90 a bottle or as $10 a bottle http://news.cnet.com/8301-13580_3-9849949-39.html.
Perhaps the makers of expensive speaker cable have known this for a long time, that expensive wires "sound better" than cheap wires. They seem to make a good living depending on this.
Usual Disclaimer
I do not intend to insult anyone who does have expensive cables or prefers expensive wine. I only point this out because it is widely understood that differences in price have a genuine effect on people's perception of performance or quality. Maybe something similar is going on in audio.
I use 12 g zip cord on my SongTowers.
HA - that's just awesome! Thanks for the entertainment, swerd. :)
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Usual Disclaimer
I do not intend to insult anyone who does have expensive cables or prefers expensive wine. I only point this out because it is widely understood that differences in price have a genuine effect on people's perception of performance or quality. Maybe something similar is going on in audio.
That's why we're thinking of raising the SongTower prices to around $50,000 per pair. Then they would REALLY sound good! aa
- Jim
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That's why we're thinking of raising the SongTower prices to around $50,000 per pair. Then they would REALLY sound good! aa
- Jim
If you do that, conventional wisdom has it that one should spend about 10% as much on cables. Anyone got $5,000 speaker cables? I’m holding out for those liquid nitrogen cooled, superconducting, oxygen-free unobtanium cables to come down in price :drool:.
Have a good time in Denver.
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Here is my experience:
At one of NY Audio Society meeting at my place, I did A/B switch (two line outs from CD to Pre-amp)
between a Silver and Copper cable from the same brand - it was a clear and HUGE difference - everyone heard it.
Later I also put a Palladium cable and people heard a few db drop in the volume (high resistance).
Blue Jeans makes good cooper cable that is affordable and sounds good, and no it is not the best sounding cable.
I'd agree that putting money in speakers, amp and source is the way to go with an inexpensive cable like Blue Jeans.
You can then tweak your system in your room with different cables - if you wish once the system has broken in and settled and you know the sound of your system.
Cheers
Sunil.
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"At one of NY Audio Society meeting at my place, I did A/B switch (two line outs from CD to Pre-amp)
between a Silver and Copper cable from the same brand - it was a clear and HUGE difference - everyone heard it.""
Heard what? Huge difference which way? Silver better? Copper better?
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Heard what? Huge difference which way? Silver better? Copper better?
Silver does have lower resistance, but what are the measured differences between the two? Also, can we actually hear the difference under blind conditions?
I'd like to see a controlled, double blind test on this subject. I suspect the results would prove (once and for all) that there are no discernible audible differences.
No offense to anyone who believes the opposite. I am on the far agnostics side when it comes to expensive boutique cables.
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Gregg Straley speaker cables.
I used to have cables that cost 10x Gregg's, but couldn't hear an appreciable difference so out they went!
George
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"At one of NY Audio Society meeting at my place, I did A/B switch (two line outs from CD to Pre-amp)
between a Silver and Copper cable from the same brand - it was a clear and HUGE difference - everyone heard it.""
Heard what? Huge difference which way? Silver better? Copper better?
It's easy to hear the delta. Most coppers will not have the detail on the top end and the bass of silver (solid silver, not silver plated copper). For IC's I use KCI gold throughout and Ridge Street Silver Ribbon SC's (a whopping 4 feet worth). I like the body of the gold as the edginess is eliminated over other materials but the soul is still there. Hey, copper is copper (the oxygen free kind, not the corroding cheap lampcord kind) and 90% of Audiophools use it. Silver has its place and gold has its place. My recommendation is the same: find out if copper vs. silver vs. gold is your bag and where in your system. We can't tell you where and in what combo. You have to try it for yourself. But don't waste time deciding on one copper versus another. I'd bet I couldn't tell the difference between Sound King and Straley copper. I did have a bad experience with Analysis Plus Silver cables though and most likely was system synergy.
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I looked at the Ridge Street site. Their SIlver RIbbons are out of my price range, unless we hit on a Lotto ticket.
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I looked at the Ridge Street site. Their SIlver RIbbons are out of my price range, unless we hit on a Lotto ticket.
If you want to try a good silver speaker cable at a reasonable price, find a pair of used TG Audio cables.
BTW, you can get an older pair of Poiema cables on Audiogon for a very reasonable price:
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?cablspkr&1228686719&/Ridge-Street-Audio-Poiema-!-6-
George
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As much as I like Robert, I buy his stuff used. :oops:
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"At one of NY Audio Society meeting at my place, I did A/B switch (two line outs from CD to Pre-amp)
between a Silver and Copper cable from the same brand - it was a clear and HUGE difference - everyone heard it.""
Heard what? Huge difference which way? Silver better? Copper better?
I wanted to give a general comment about general copper / silver cable question and do not wish to get too much into details, as I do not want to start another cable related war.
Anyone is free to experiment silver vs. copper vs. palladium in their system - I bet most non believers will hear the difference. AT NYAS, we all settled on Copper in the end. Palladium was on the exotic side and silver was too bright - yes - it needed to break in. Almost all gear will sound better in a few months to a year.
It all boils down to implementation / design of the overall cable and how it works in your system to your taste in your room. It is not as much about Silver vs. copper - but it is hard to go wrong with copper in general.
Sometimes the differences are subtle but sometimes the differences are huge.
YMMV
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"At one of NY Audio Society meeting at my place, I did A/B switch (two line outs from CD to Pre-amp)
between a Silver and Copper cable from the same brand - it was a clear and HUGE difference - everyone heard it.""
Heard what? Huge difference which way? Silver better? Copper better?
I wanted to give a general comment about general copper / silver cable question and do not wish to get too much into details, as I do not want to start another cable related war.
Anyone is free to experiment silver vs. copper vs. palladium in their system - I bet most non believers will hear the difference. AT NYAS, we all settled on Copper in the end. Palladium was on the exotic side and silver was too bright - yes - it needed to break in. Almost all gear will sound better in a few months to a year.
It all boils down to implementation / design of the overall cable and how it works in your system to your taste in your room. It is not as much about Silver vs. copper - but it is hard to go wrong with copper in general.
Sometimes the differences are subtle but sometimes the differences are huge.
YMMV
When I was going down the speaker cable audition road the guys at Zu Cables made a similar remark - implementation/design has more impact than the conductor metal used.
When I was looking for speaker cables I was able to get loaner or 30 day return cables from:
Zu/Signal Cable/Nordost/Acoustic Zen/Gregg Straley (20 days) and my home made Belden's. After a few weeks the one the I preferred became easily apparent.
I would try and do the same with your V3's and have the objective of keeping the cost as low as possible while maximizing the sound that you prefer - with this in mind I would design a test such as the following example: cable from Home Depot, throw in a Blue Jeans type cable, a mid range cable such as Gregg Straley's and then pick a higher end cable from a mainstream or boutique manufacture such as Ridge Street/Acoustic Zen/Kimber. This would then allow you to come to your own conclusions as to what works best for you as we all have personal preferences.
Another issue is bi-wire or not - not sure what binding posts you ordered from Jim, but I found bi-wiring my HT3's made difference whatsoever.
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As an engineer and a scientist the idea that a cable needs "break in" is absolutely preposterous.
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As an engineer and a scientist the idea that a cable needs "break in" is absolutely preposterous.
Please beat that horse elsewhere.
Thanks.
George
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I thought the dead horse was the audible differences between cable material. I'm not even touching that one with a ten foot pole. I thought however there might still be hope on the so called "break in"... but I guess you're right if science and engineering had anything to do with it that whole "cable controversy" would have been settled decades ago. I apologize for forgetting that faith and science are immiscible.
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Well, you know, I am currently using some Tsunami 16gauge "A.C.T. Competition series premium" twisted pair speaker cable and its not bad, (yes its car audio cable). So I doubt I would start with Home Depot wire as the low price point to evaluate. Currently the Tsunami stuff is only feeding a pair of older NHT Super One loudspeakers. The Tsunami has silvered or tinned conductors, each in a translucent yellow or clear sheath, twisted inside a clear outer sheath. That will be the base line for any cable to beat when the V3s are here.
A custom car audio place near me sold it to me cheap several years ago because it was spool end and they could not get anymore, or so they said.
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Would you like to borrow my Poiema Bi Wires for a week? They're only 4 foot long per side.
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Would you like to borrow my Poiema Bi Wires for a week? They're only 4 foot long per side.
If this works for you then comparing them with Radio Shack/Home Depot cable would be an inexpensive way to determine if you hear or difference between boutique and cheap cables or not?
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Currently using 16g zip cord, but when my HT3s arrive you bet I am going to upgrade...
to 12 gauge insulated electrical wire off of a spool from an electrical supply store!
I just came across this article (http://"http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm") that I thought was an interesting read. I have read a few others like it but this one is very comprehensive and concise.
Cheers,
Funk
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I can't get the link to open, but I think that is the article where the author effectively says that anything over large enough standard copper wire is a waste, no? Lets don't go off track with whether or not cables make a difference. I will be my own judge of that, but I am not going to drop megabucks on cables anyway.
What does Jim or Dennis use and what did they use at RMAF, more rope?
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to 12 gauge insulated electrical wire off of a spool from an electrical supply store!
You will want both conductors to be inside a jacket that holds them tightly together or some type of zip cord.
If you have much length and the two conductors are allowed to separate much signifigant inductance may result.
Expensive wires are pure nonsense but REAL electrical principles make perfect sense.
What's funny are the number of very expensive offerings that claim exclusive technology and years of laboratory reasearch but cannot match the performance of what you can get at any Wal-Mart.
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Pierre Spey, proprietor of Mapleshade Records, makes recordings of excellent sonic merit. Here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/12/AR2008101201956.html?hpid=topnews) he's discussing the benefits of very thin wire.
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I can't get the link to open, but I think that is the article where the author effectively says what anything over large enough standard copper wire is a waste, no? Lets don't go off track with whether or not cables make a difference. I will be my own judge of that, but I am not going to drop megabucks on cables anyway.
What does Jim or Dennis use and what did they use at RMAF, more rope?
Ooops. Forgot to check what was being used in Denver. I use 16 Ga Rat Shack Megacable, but, as I posted earlier, mainly because the Shack is next to a good Chinese take out. I did come across this price list at a demo at RMAF (I think for a Krell set-up with a new $65,000 aluminum-cabinet speaker that sounded kind of OK, but not more). "Speaker Cable: First foot, $1,298." Or maybe it was a meter. But I think it was per foot. I don't use that particular cable. The one in Denver. I don't use it.
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I'm currently using a set of Ixos 16gauge wire to evaluate the Song Towers.... connected to a $10,500 integrated and a $12,000 cd player. GASP! Shall I go hide in shame? :lol: :icon_lol:
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I use Audioquest Volcano speaker cables and Kubala-Sosna Emotion jumpers with very good results.
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As many of you know, Frank Van Alstine (Audio by Van Alstine) doesn't buy into fancy speaker cables. So it was interesting when a high-tech speaker cable company (don't ask) volunteered to bring their $1500 cables to our room at RMAF after things closed down on Sunday. They wanted to prove to Frank that cables do indeed make a difference.
Frank's assitant, Nathan, had everyone leave the room and then hooked up either the $1500 cable or 14 gauge lamp cord while the room was vacated. Then Frank, myself, my wife Mary, three people from the cable company and a room visitor were invited back into the room for a listen. This was repeated three times and those doing the listening were told to keep track of which session they think sounded the best.
After the sessions were complete, we went around the room and asked everyone which session sounded the best and what they heard. There were no votes for the first session, a few votes for the second session and the majority of votes for the third session. Then Nathan informed everyone which cables were used in each of the three sessions. The first session received no votes - it was the $1500 cable. The second session received a few votes - it was also the $1500 cable. The thrid session received the most votes - it was the zip cord.
While this wasn't a scientific test, it was at least a "blind" test. And while there was no clear winner, the lamp cord certainly held its own against this "high-tech" speaker cable. Even those selling the cables were unable to ascertain a significant difference between the cables.
For what its worth.
- Jim
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Thanks for the report Jim.
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Yes, but what brand lamp cord? Heh.
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Jim
I'm actually impressed that you heard any difference at all between the lamp cord and the $1500 cable (nearly the same price as a SongTower pair :o).
You described them as a "high-tech" cable company. High-priced yes, but probably not high-tech.
They might be having trouble explaining why their cable failed to sound better :dunno:. I have a few modest suggestions for them:
- Frank's assistant somehow spoiled the test.
- You didn't use state-of-the-art audio equipment.
- You used audio equipment that is 5 years ahead of state-of-the-art.
- The hotel's electric power was dirty.
- The lamp cord was burned in and their cable was not.
- Their cable had recently been flown in to Denver and had not yet recovered from it's exposure to static electricity accumulated during the flight. If necessary substitute drive for flight, UV light for static electricity, etc.
- Denver is a mile above sea level and they neglected to bring their cable with the high-altitude insulation.
Any other ideas?
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You didn't use their expensive cable stand offs which caused interaction with the floor.
Bob
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As many of you know, Frank Van Alstine (Audio by Van Alstine) doesn't buy into fancy speaker cables. So it was interesting when a high-tech speaker cable company (don't ask) volunteered to bring their $1500 cables to our room at RMAF after things closed down on Sunday. They wanted to prove to Frank that cables do indeed make a difference.
Frank's assitant, Nathan, had everyone leave the room and then hooked up either the $1500 cable or 14 gauge lamp cord while the room was vacated. Then Frank, myself, my wife Mary, three people from the cable company and a room visitor were invited back into the room for a listen. This was repeated three times and those doing the listening were told to keep track of which session they think sounded the best.
After the sessions were complete, we went around the room and asked everyone which session sounded the best and what they heard. There were no votes for the first session, a few votes for the second session and the majority of votes for the third session. Then Nathan informed everyone which cables were used in each of the three sessions. The first session received no votes - it was the $1500 cable. The second session received a few votes - it was also the $1500 cable. The thrid session received the most votes - it was the zip cord.
While this wasn't a scientific test, it was at least a "blind" test. And while there was no clear winner, the lamp cord certainly held its own against this "high-tech" speaker cable. Even those selling the cables were unable to ascertain a significant difference between the cables.
For what its worth.
- Jim
It seems obvious that the best zip cord is made in Colorado. :lol:
Cheers
Charlie
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See my post near the tail end of the "Get some Bluejeans Cable" thread at the Audio by Van Alstine circle herein for more details on the speaker comparison test at RMAF.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
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For what its worth.
I'd say it's worth upwards of 1500 bucks. Wire just isn't worth agonizing over.
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I can think of a few ways of making the test a bit more scientifically significant, :? but there is no way that there is a significant difference if you have to look so hard. :thumb:
MK
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I use Clear Day Double Shotguns with my SongTowers. Best I've tried so far.
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Mick, what else have you tried besides the Clear Day cables?
Also, Clear Day no longer has a product page on Audiogon, and I would really like to see what I would be considering to purchase from them or anyone. Is their another webpage for Clear Day?
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Mick, what else have you tried besides the Clear Day cables?
Also, Clear Day no longer has a product page on Audiogon, and I would really like to see what I would be considering to purchase from them or anyone. Is their another webpage for Clear Day?
San,
You must have missed their page. It's here: http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?cablspkr&1228600555&/Clear-Day-Cables-Solid-Core-si (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?cablspkr&1228600555&/Clear-Day-Cables-Solid-Core-si) :thumb:
Have fun,
Jerry
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Well, that link wasn't working yesterday. I would still like to know what else Mick has tried.
Someone was asking about speaker cables on the AVS forum, so I listed for him all the I.D. vendor sites I had gathered. I would have listed Clear Day too, but apparently they don't have their own website yet.
Here is the link:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1076795
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Mick, what else have you tried besides the Clear Day cables?
Also, Clear Day no longer has a product page on Audiogon, and I would really like to see what I would be considering to purchase from them or anyone. Is their another webpage for Clear Day?
I actually settled on the Clear Days when I was using Spendor 2/3s. The Clear Days replaced Harmonic Tech Pro 11s. Also in the mix at that time was AQ Type #4 and Mapleshade Single Helix. All were decent wires , but the Clear Day cables were the "clear" winner. Now I hasten to add that when the SongTowers arrived, I just continued using the Clear Day cables. As far as recent comparisons are concerned, I've used single, double and triple shotgun versions of this cable and concluded the best bang for the buck is the " Double Shotgun ".
Paul also runs an ad over at AudioAsylum , but I do believe his ads are still up at Audiogon. If you have trouble reaching him, just e-mail me at ( rosannmic@aol.com ).
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Thanks Mick, You have definitely run some of the highly regarded cables through your system. I doubt I am going to that price level of cable any time soon. But, the itch may strike down the road.
Thanks everyone for all your input.
At this point, I think I may just start out with an economy speaker cable such as Blue Jeans Cable or Mogami, that is a step up from basic speaker wire, and live with that for a while until the V3s and the rest of the system are very familiar to me. Then I would likely start experimenting with other cable options. But I think there are probably some more equipment upgrades that need to be made before I take much action on listening to other cables.
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Actually the AQs and Mapleshades are fairly modest in price by today's standards. The HTs were the most expensive at around $400 yrs. ago when I bought them. The basic Clear Day Shotgun is under $200. Don't worry, there are plenty of good choices in ICs and speaker cable that won't break the bank.
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I'm using Acoustic Zen satori shotgun on my Veracity HT3's
great detail, warmth, holographic imaging etc
really bring out all the extra details the salks are capable of
you can usually pick these up on audiogon for $400-$500
I also use their matrix reference interconnects
well worth it
moscode 401hr amp / dodd battery powered preamp
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Wow.... you have almost exactly the same thing as I have... twin brother? :thumb: :thumb:
I'm using Acoustic Zen satori shotgun on my Veracity HT3's
great detail, warmth, holographic imaging etc
really bring out all the extra details the salks are capable of
you can usually pick these up on audiogon for $400-$500
I also use their matrix reference interconnects
well worth it
moscode 401hr amp / dodd battery powered preamp
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yes, twin brother
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(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g182/sanlanman/Misc%20Stuff/PC070001.jpg)
Here is what I finally did. Put together my own speaker cables. Parts consist of:
1) 12 guage speaker cable (cable only) from Blue jeans cable
2) Cable Pants from PartsExpress.com
3) Spades and locking Banana Plugs from Orange County Speaker Repair website.
I have not hooked them up yet. My V3s are still in progress and stand a good chance of getting here around Christmas. :thumb:
One day I may step up from these to something else if I am convinced that my hearing and my equipment level warrants doing so, or if I am just plain dissatisfied with these.
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Your cables look great sanlanman. I am on a similar path.
My original plan was to get a length of wire from HomeDepot or Lowes and use it, I went to Home Depot looking for some 12/4 (12 awg / 4 conductor) in a black jacket . They only had something close available by special order. Lowes doesn't list anything comparable on their web site, so I didn't bother making that trip. So, I figured that since I had to order what I wanted, I would make a set of cables that look as nice as the really expensive ones for just a couple of bucks more than the Home Depot solution. I ordered some Canare 4S11 (from BlueJeans Cable)http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm) and some expandable sleeving and heat shrink (from PartsExpress) http://www.parts-express.com/index.cfm (http://www.parts-express.com/index.cfm) and threw in a pair of automatic wire strippers to get the total high enough for free shipping. The total cost, with shipping was about a dollar more than without the strippers, so those are basically a freebie. I bought enough wire and sleeving to do two pairs (4 runs) of cable for my mains, and a shorty for my HTC. That is enough for me to play around with bi-amping through a single cable, or two separate cable runs, or a single amp channel and stick with jumpers. All that I will be gaining with the various possiblities would be effective cable thickness (and watts w/ bi-amp!!)... single run bi-amped (14 gauge), single run with jumpers (11 gauge), double run bi-amped (11 guage to each pair of binding posts). I'm not sure that any of the various scenarios will make a whit of difference, especially over a relatively short run (about 7', but I may make 9' cables for some adjustability). If nothing else it will be fun to experiment.
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Curious... no one using Salk's cables? :scratch:
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Curious... no one using Salk's cables? :scratch:
Salk cables? :scratch: I don't recall Jim making cables, although I could be wrong.
Mark
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I know Jim has made cables for at least one dude. (the guy that owned the HT3s that I auditioned told me that Jim made his cables for him). Other than that, he lists some for sale on his website. http://www.salksound.com/cables.shtml (http://www.salksound.com/cables.shtml)
Not sure if Jim makes 'em or just brokers for Carl Smith.
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I use monoprice 14/4 with bananas (covered in shrink wrap tubing), which I had used to bi-wire my previous speakers. With the SongTower, two 14 gauge copper wires run from each amplifier terminal to each speaker post. They are not particularly long runs, and I don't know if it would be better to use only one wire per terminal/post.
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Just a quick note on our speaker cable offerings.
A number of years ago, I met Carl Smith at a speaker gathering. Carl spent his entire working career as a high-end cable designer/builder for Bell Labs. The cables he developed had to be highly noise immune with tightly controlled capacitance and inductance. He employed winding/braiding methods that are state-of-the-art.
Carl's hobby is high-end audio and he spent several years researching the finest wire available world-wide. After talking with him for an afternoon, I was convinced that Carl's cables employed the best methods and materials possible. Since he was building his cables at the kitchen table, I volunteered to put them on my web site to help Carl develop his business. I knew that if people wanted high-end cable, they were unlikely to find any that were superior in any way.
At the same time, many of our customers did not want to spend the type of money required for Carl's cables. So, upon request, we have built cables for some customers. But it is not something that we have never promoted and you won't find them on our web site.
There are plenty of companies out there selling every conceivable type of inter-connect and speaker cable. And people seem to have strong feelings about the subject matter. So we feel we are better off leaving it to others to sort things out. That said, if someone wants us to build speaker cables, we will do it.
Just for the record, unless the customer has a specific wire he or she feels strongly about, we use generic 12-gauge oxygen free copper wire in a TechFlex jacket and terminated with good, but moderately priced connectors. These cables serve us well and we have no problem building them for others.
- Jim
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Usual Disclaimer
I do not intend to insult anyone who does have expensive cables or prefers expensive wine. I only point this out because it is widely understood that differences in price have a genuine effect on people's perception of performance or quality. Maybe something similar is going on in audio.
That's why we're thinking of raising the SongTower prices to around $50,000 per pair. Then they would REALLY sound good! aa
- Jim
:lol: Well, I'm sure there's more than a little truth in that!
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FYI, Jim can now build anyone some cables using nice pro looking spades or locking banana plugs.
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Old style Monster Z 2 for the Songs. Had it laying around the house and made use of it. Otherwise I wouldn't put my dollars into high-end cable upgrades at present. 10 ga. and fat, it lays on the floor real nice. :green:
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Fat isn't necessarily good. Helix configs of multiple smaller gauges are usually more desireable from a noise and RLC perspective.
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Fat isn't necessarily good. Helix configs of multiple smaller gauges are usually more desireable from a noise and RLC perspective.
I was just pointing out the positive attributes that I actually realize. :lol:
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Hopefully I'll never look like my avatar. oops, too late.