The new Revelation Raven Preamp

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rpw

Re: The new Revelation Raven Preamp
« Reply #60 on: 25 Jul 2024, 05:44 pm »
Will the Raven pre be on display at the Pacific Audio Fest?

Spatial Audio

Re: The new Revelation Raven Preamp
« Reply #61 on: 26 Jul 2024, 01:29 am »
Will the Raven pre be on display at the Pacific Audio Fest?

Unfortunately, we had a conflict with too many other activities in September this year and we will not be at PAF. It's a great show and we do plan to be there next year.

mresseguie

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Re: The new Revelation Raven Preamp
« Reply #62 on: 26 Jul 2024, 02:43 pm »
Unfortunately, we had a conflict with too many other activities in September this year and we will not be at PAF. It's a great show and we do plan to be there next year.

 :o

[Michael’s jaw is picked up from the floor.]


BrandonB

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Re: The new Revelation Raven Preamp
« Reply #63 on: 31 Jul 2024, 09:16 pm »
Any new Revelation preamp owners want to comment about their new preamp?

Cappy

Re: The new Revelation Raven Preamp
« Reply #64 on: 1 Aug 2024, 12:51 am »
Most of my listening with the Raven has been with a DIY First Watt M2 amplifier.  I'm finding this to be an excellent combination.

The M2 is a no negative feedback Class-A Nelson Pass design with purely passive voltage gain via an autoformer.  There is no negative feedback in the Raven, and none in the amp.  After the DAC, the only active voltage gain in the system is via the Raven's 6SN7 vacuum tubes.

The signal path is balanced XLRs from the Holo May DAC to the Raven, then single-ended RCAs to the M2.  I wrote a post in this thread regarding using the Raven with a pair of Nilai monoblocks.  In that case, the signal path was fully balanced from DAC to amps.

I use the May exclusively in 1-bit sigma-delta modulator mode using HQPlayer conversion, never using the PCM ladders, and always outputting to DSD256.

Some listening notes next...

Cappy

Re: The new Revelation Raven Preamp
« Reply #65 on: 1 Aug 2024, 08:16 pm »
I just listened to the Egmont Overture.  Stirring.  Really nice clarity and powerful dynamics through the Raven.  Excellent string tone.  Nice image layering and depth.

This is a Sony 96/24 recording with the Kammerochester Basel, "Beethoven:Triple Concerto".

I don't spin LPs anymore, but listening to this overture made me think how good the Raven would sound in a vinyl setup with a balanced phono stage.  Channel D battery powered, perhaps?

jac1920

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Re: The new Revelation Raven Preamp
« Reply #66 on: 2 Aug 2024, 07:09 pm »
I suspected I wasn't hearing everything this preamp was capable of and switched cables to Paul Speltz' level 5.3 XLR anti-cables.  Clarity, detail, focus and dynamics are ALL there and now everything sounds right!  The Raven preamp and anti-cables brought my system up several notches.  I am one happy camper!

Cappy

Re: The new Revelation Raven Preamp
« Reply #67 on: 2 Aug 2024, 09:03 pm »
jac1920, nice you got that sorted.

Today I listened to the Cranberries 2017 recording, "Something Else", with the Irish Chamber Orchestra (44.1/16).

Dolores O'Riodan had a unique and complex mezzo voice. I felt like the Raven and M2 captured the constant pitch variations in her singing very well.  It made me realize that clarity isn't just extra detail or lack of noise, it is also about relaying "micro-tone" modulations in a voice or instrument.  The "macro-tone" was well represented too:  the contrast of the various string instruments, the different sounding guitars and guitar amps used, the colorful cymbal splashes.


dls123

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Re: The new Revelation Raven Preamp
« Reply #68 on: 3 Aug 2024, 02:16 am »
jac1920, nice you got that sorted.

Today I listened to the Cranberries 2017 recording, "Something Else", with the Irish Chamber Orchestra (44.1/16).

Dolores O'Riodan had a unique and complex mezzo voice. I felt like the Raven and M2 captured the constant pitch variations in her singing very well.  It made me realize that clarity isn't just extra detail or lack of noise, it is also about relaying "micro-tone" modulations in a voice or instrument.  The "macro-tone" was well represented too:  the contrast of the various string instruments, the different sounding guitars and guitar amps used, the colorful cymbal splashes.

I bet you the matching Blackbirds would present that recording to you with even more realism.  What you describe is exactly what the whole Revelation series does in spades.  I understand that close to $20K per pair is a big step for many folks.  But they do things that only a hand full of top tier amps can do, and most of those cost considerably more than the Blackbirds.

phono2024

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Re: The new Revelation Raven Preamp
« Reply #69 on: 11 Sep 2024, 11:38 pm »
Hello,

I am new to this circle. I have made an order for a Raven pre-amp. For a start, where can I find a thread in AC that recommends songs/music CDs?
Thanks.

phono2024

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Re: The new Revelation Raven Preamp
« Reply #70 on: 11 Sep 2024, 11:44 pm »
Hello,

I listen to all genres - classical, jazz, blues, instrumental, music from the 60s, 70s, 80s.
Thank you.

dls123

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Re: The new Revelation Raven Preamp
« Reply #71 on: 13 Sep 2024, 01:36 am »

Hi.. I made some recommendations in the sun is shining thread.....

phono2024

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Re: The new Revelation Raven Preamp
« Reply #72 on: 14 Sep 2024, 03:37 am »
Hi,
 
Thank you very much. I will check it out.

Whitestix

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Re: The new Revelation Raven Preamp
« Reply #73 on: 7 Oct 2024, 11:54 pm »
I have both the Raven and Blackbird pre-production units and they are stellar.  I have had Don's earlier preamps, both of them, and can say that the Raven is a significant step up.   The Kootenai is by now a collectors item.  I compared my Kootenai to a Mac 275 that the owner raved about, but completely changed his tune when we listened to both of them.  The speakers were Tannoy Westminsters, which are very revealing speakers.  In all respects, the Kootenai was superior, and was significant quieter. 

BrandonB

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Re: The new Revelation Raven Preamp
« Reply #74 on: 8 Oct 2024, 12:25 am »
I have both the Raven and Blackbird pre-production units and they are stellar.  I have had Don's earlier preamps, both of them, and can say that the Raven is a significant step up.   The Kootenai is by now a collectors item.  I compared my Kootenai to a Mac 275 that the owner raved about, but completely changed his tune when we listened to both of them.  The speakers were Tannoy Westminsters, which are very revealing speakers.  In all respects, the Kootenai was superior, and was significant quieter.
How is the noise floor and soundstage of the preamp and does it have any tube flavor?

dls123

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Re: The new Revelation Raven Preamp
« Reply #75 on: 13 Oct 2024, 03:20 pm »
How is the noise floor and soundstage of the preamp and does it have any tube flavor?

Hi
I am the designer so take my comments with that in mind, but the Raven and the Blackbird amps are dead quiet at idle.   They have fully regulated high voltage and filament supplies and the Raven is transformer coupled.  There is no hum, and with any half decent pair of 6SN7 tubes you can put your ear to a speaker and barely tell it is on at idle.   My speakers are about 95 dB and I can barely tell the system is on with my ear to the drivers at idle.  As for tube flavor, it is not "tubey" at all, but rather it is very neutral.  That said, you can certainly hear the difference between 6SN7 tubes and you can pick your favorite based on your system.  The big Shuguang WE6SN7 is a tad bit warmer than the Linlai E-6SN7.  Both are superb.  The modern Russian Gold Lion 6SN7 is a good tube and very quiet, but not quite up to the previous two sonically.  Of course you can run any 6SN7 variant you choose as long as you have decent section matching within each tube.  All modern production tubes have pretty well matched sections.  Not an issue except when rolling old stock questionable 6SN7 tubes...  Even with mismatched sections you just get a bit less bass.  Won't hurt anything.

Hopefully a Raven owner or two will chime in.  They are pretty active on other places if you search.

jac1920

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Re: The new Revelation Raven Preamp
« Reply #76 on: 14 Oct 2024, 01:36 am »
I'll chime in. I'm using the Raven preamp with Linlai tubes because I felt my system leaned a little to the warm side and I wanted a bit more transparency and detail. If there is anything tube-like in the sound it is the spacious soundstage with excellent separation of images.  But I would not describe it as tubey.  I find the frequency range well balanced and music just sounds more natural and less hifi to me.  The Raven replaced a very good Ayre solid state preamp which years ago was their top of the line preamp.  The Raven delivers superior sonics in just about every way. In addition, some of the Raven's capabilities were revealed when I replaced my interconnects with Paul Speltz best Anticables.  Finally, the preamp is very quiet.  I simply cannot hear any hiss or buzzing from my listening chair; only faintly when I put my ear next to the tweeter. My speakers are 89 dB efficient, so quite a bit less than Don's.

Lynn Olson

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Re: The new Revelation Raven Preamp
« Reply #77 on: 4 Nov 2024, 09:35 pm »
Hi folks, I'm Lynn Olson, co-designer of the Raven preamp and Blackbird power amp. What Spatial is making now is a development of designs I originally published around 1999 and 2003, with a lot of further development from Don Sachs, and three years of collaboration between Don and myself.

All-transformer coupling is very very unusual in both preamps and power amps, regardless of price point ... including $150,000 electronics. Nearly all other vacuum tube products are cap-coupled. Transistor gear is nearly always direct coupled, with occasional use of DC servo circuits to chase out minor DC offsets.

The only other all-transformer coupled electronics I can think of are Rowland Research, which is actually all-transistor gear. But ... it is also very good, and something to be seriously considered if the buyer is allergic to vacuum tubes. But not cheap, with price points well above the Revelation Series.

A significant advantage of transformers is they scrape off ultrasonic distortion from previous stages, as well as removing any RF interference picked up from interconnects. Since modern homes are filled with microwave frequency noise from Bluetooth and WiFi transmitters, as well as stray emissions from digital devices, this is a subtle but important gain.

Then there is the issue of audibility of interconnects. They're expected to do two quite different jobs ... accurately transmit audio from A to B, but also reject hum, buzz, and ultrasonic RF noise from outside sources. Noise rejection, by using multiple layers of shielding and complex internal geometries, may conflict with goals of removing coloration from dielectrics in the cable construction. Transformers lift this shielding burden from the cables and allows simpler cables, since the transformers have inherent rejection of unbalanced noise (about 80 dB) as well as complete rejection of RF noise ... and removal of ground loops between components.

This effectively signal-conditions the audio signal fed to the tube grid. No DC offsets, no ultrasonic distortion components, and no RFI noise. Just audio, nothing else. This in turn lifts a burden from the vacuum tube, since it is no longer amplifying out-band non-audio content. The fully balanced circuit (including volume control) has another 30 to 35 dB of distortion and noise rejection, and is summed by the passive (not active) output transformer.

Lynn Olson

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Re: The new Revelation Raven Preamp
« Reply #78 on: 5 Nov 2024, 08:57 am »
I should mention the Raven preamp was partly influenced by borrowing a Rowland Research linestage preamp to use with my Amity PP300B amplifier I designed around 1997 or so. The Rowland was the only solid-state preamp that was tolerable with the Amity, which was quite unforgiving of input sources.

I was curious why it didn't sound "solid-state" at all, unlike every other SS preamp I had borrowed. True, it's built on a solid NC-milled aluminum chassis, which gives it a classy (and very expensive) aerospace air, but solid-state has quite low sensitivity to vibration, with the exception of capacitors (which are somewhat microphonic under certain conditions). What was more interesting was a Jensen JT-10K input transformer driving an ultrafast opamp. Ordinarily, that would make little sense, since the particular opamp Rowland used was so fast it could easily pass a video signal with no degradation, while the studio-grade transformer has a steep rolloff around 80 kHz or so.

And then it dawned on me. The Jensen pro transformer was effectively a signal conditioner. It scraped off all ultrasonics, including RF noise far outside audio band, so the opamp could never slew under any conditions. And blocked DC, of course, and also removed an astounding 80 dB of common-mode noise from the input cable.

I didn't buy the Rowland, of course, since I'm a tube guy, but it gave me food for thought. The same principles could be applied to a balanced tube stage, provided an output transformer was also used, along with an accurately balanced volume control (using precision stepped resistors). So the Raven was born, a zero-feedback balanced tube linestage using transformer coupling throughout.

I was technical editor of  Vacuum Tube Valley magazine at the time, so I carried out research to see if Western Electric had gotten there seventy years before ... and they had. The Raven is pretty similar to late-Twenties Bell System telephone long-lines amplifiers, easily capable of pushing a voice signal down many miles of  balanced twisted-pair wire. Well, modern computer-designed transformers are far superior than anything in the Twenties, so why not?

The inherent distortion of 5687, 7044, 7119, and 6SN7 tubes is quite low, and there's ample power to drive hundreds of feet of cable. And balanced operation linearizes the tube by about 30 to 35 dB while rejecting noise by the same amount. Give the whole thing a modern precision-regulated linear power supply (no switchers) and the only noise should be a very low level of tube hiss ... which is fully uncorrelated with the audio signal. (Signal-correlated noise is an annoying form of distortion that fuzzes up the music, while fully uncorrelated noise sounds like soft rainfall outside the house. In practice, the Raven is dead silent, with no hum, hiss, or buzz at all.)

Don was the first to take this idle thought experiment of mine and reduce it to practice, throwing in many improvements that were not possible in 1997, such as the precision regulated supply and the accurately balanced volume control, complete with a remote control with a L/R balance feature as well as volume control. So the Raven is a fascinating mix of 1920's and 2020's technology, sweeping completely over 1950's and 1960's design approaches.

dls123

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Re: The new Revelation Raven Preamp
« Reply #79 on: 9 Nov 2024, 11:20 pm »
Lynn and I first crossed paths probably a bit over 3 years ago.  He contacted me and wanted me to build him one of my previous preamps.  Of course he wanted something special with dual mono volume controls, which I could do.  He liked the preamp and we got to chatting and he told me he had a power amp circuit I should build.  That it would be the best amp I had ever heard.  I told him I already build a very good power amp.  However, I was intrigued by the concept and circuit so, I used a case and a lot of parts I had on hand to build a prototype stereo version of what eventually evolved into the Blackbird amps that Spatial is now making.   The prototype stereo one had coupling caps and ran quite hot, but it was still the best amp I had ever heard, and Clayton Shaw, and Cloud and Ryan (the other Spatial tech) all agreed that it was a killer amp, and the best they had ever heard as well.  So I set about improving it by going to mono blocks, getting Dave Geren at Cinemag to do custom interstage transformers, and each version was greatly improved, and now it is very cool running for a class A 300b push pull amp.   The final version is the Blackbird amp.   Lynn also tossed out the circuit idea for the Raven preamp, so I built one and indeed, it was easily better than anything I had ever heard.  So Lynn and I set out to improve it and the production Raven is the third or fourth generation.  It is easily the best preamp I have ever heard.   A three year journey from concept through prototyping, to production by Spatial Audio Lab.

I will note that both the Blackbird amp and the Raven preamp circuits appear deceptively simple, but the devil is in the detail.  It took quite some time to optimize the power supply topology, the custom regulated filament supplies, the interstage and output transformers (and rca input transformer for the Raven), and the whole Khozmo volume control setup.  We worked with Cinemag, Khozmo, Monolith Magnetics, Tom at Neurochrome, and probably others I am forgetting to get what we wanted.  These are not off-the-shelf parts in here.  Sam at Spatial improved the looks while maintaining the internal layout, which is optimal sonically.  Three years from start to production, but it was worth it.  Best stereo I ever had in my living room, which is really why I still do this in my semi-retirement.  To see what is possible....