Bass traps for open baffle not really needed?

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DBT AUDIO

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Re: Bass traps for open baffle not really needed?
« Reply #20 on: 22 Oct 2022, 06:32 pm »
Speakers are about 4' from the front wall, 4' from the side walls, 7'4" apart and my chair is 10'6" from the speakers which is about 7' from the back wall. They look more toed in than they are because of the pano shot. They are pointed to just outside of my ear on each side. I've moved the speakers and the chair around a lot (but more fine tuning can be done of course) and this is where everything sounds the best except the bass along the back wall I'm missing where the chair is. There is some, but not as much.






Have you tried an equilateral positioning?  I preferred the sound of my X5s when I was sitting in an equilateral setup, but I couldn’t keep it setup that way in my family room.  It seems like you might be sitting back too far from the speakers compared to the shorter distance you have between the speakers?  Disregard if you already mentioned it or already tried it.  Nice size room!

Tyson

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Re: Bass traps for open baffle not really needed?
« Reply #21 on: 22 Oct 2022, 06:34 pm »
Have you tried an equilateral positioning?  I preferred the sound of my X5s when I was sitting in an equilateral setup, but I couldn’t keep it setup that way in my family room.  It seems like you might be sitting back too far from the speakers compared to the shorter distance you have between the speakers?  Disregard if you already mentioned it or already tried it.  Nice size room!

Agreed, leave the seat where it is but move the speakers so that they just touch the edge of the rug.  Even if it doesn't change the bass, it should give best imaging and soundstage.

DaveWin88

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Re: Bass traps for open baffle not really needed?
« Reply #22 on: 22 Oct 2022, 10:04 pm »
Agreed, leave the seat where it is but move the speakers so that they just touch the edge of the rug.  Even if it doesn't change the bass, it should give best imaging and soundstage.
I would try firing them almost straight on. Maybe 5-10 degree's using the edge of the rug as a guide.

forky

Re: Bass traps for open baffle not really needed?
« Reply #23 on: 23 Oct 2022, 03:08 am »
Thanks guys. I took your advice and spent some time on this, this afternoon. I can't wait to listen to it - hopefully tomorrow (wife doesn't like the loud speakers so I usually only listen to when she has left the building which is usually 1-3 hours per week - which is why I'm so annoyed by this 400 breakin for the M3s).

Anyway, here are the measurements I wound up with - digital.
Room is 19.78 long and 17.56 wide.

left ear to speaker is 9.226
Right ear to speaker is  9.130
distance between them is 9.127, measured from centers of tweeters.
each are 4.5xx to the side walls
each are 5.5xx to the front wall (hard to get exact measurements with the curtain wavy)
ear to rear wall is 6.575

I'll report back again once I listen....looking forward to it.

Letitroll98

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Re: Bass traps for open baffle not really needed?
« Reply #24 on: 23 Oct 2022, 10:30 am »
The room looks like it has the bones of a great listening room, but I would expect it to sound very hard and edgy at first glance.  There nothing but walls and glass in there.  The new placement should help when you get a chance to hear it, but you really need either furniture or a lot of treatment.  The idea with the speakers closer is to reduce early reflections by increasing the percentage of direct sound.

Also, removing the deceased dog should help with the odor.

forky

Re: Bass traps for open baffle not really needed?
« Reply #25 on: 24 Oct 2022, 05:56 pm »
Yes, hopefully the new treatment will help. It did at my old house but still wasn't enough - although it was an odd shaped room with other issues. With the curtains closed I would think that the curtains would have less reflection than drywall?

I listened to some music last night and moderate volume. While it did sound very good I think the speakers are a bit too far apart as there was a fairly good area of "nothing" in the center. I'll try again though with different music and also will leave them in their current setup until at least my new treatment is up and in place.

Tangram

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Re: Bass traps for open baffle not really needed?
« Reply #26 on: 24 Oct 2022, 06:06 pm »
It does look like the room has a lot of potential, but I agree, until you have some treatments in place (at least first reflections, including ceiling, I would just let 'em break in and not worry about how they sound at this stage.

Tyson

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Re: Bass traps for open baffle not really needed?
« Reply #27 on: 24 Oct 2022, 06:59 pm »
Move the speakers so they are closer together, maybe 1 or 2 feet.  That should give you a better center fill.

forky

Re: Bass traps for open baffle not really needed?
« Reply #28 on: 2 Nov 2022, 09:04 pm »
Thanks all for all the pointers/advice of late.  :green:

Ok so besides the advice here I also read more online, wathched vids, read the applicable section on Better Sound, used the Cardas calc and started over. I also got into my head "perfection and OCD mode" which helped.

The goal was to have the speakers disappear. I've read about this a lot and on youtube but have never heard this before. I think I got close but not quite.

I remeasured the lenth and it is exactly 20.00' which / 3 = 6.67. So I moved my speakers that far from the front wall and the chair that far from the rear wall (within a few tenths, I think wound up at 6.7 for each although since I was measuring from the curtain on the front wall it isn't exact but close).

Then came speaker width and somehow came up with 7.5 apart so I didn't have to move my chair and the speakers would be on that same line. The width is 17.5 which left 5' from the speaker to each wall. I think it somehow wound up at 5.17-ish. Oh and the toe was just outside each shoulder - not a lot of angle.

Then I got the ABB1s in today and set them up - 1 behind each speake and two in the middle although they are on the floor so not quite in thier ideal positions I think.

I then put on side 1 of the Wall (US promo  :green: ) where for the airplane crash and other sound effects and listened with a smile and then came on Mother and wow! Ok so now we are getting close.

I had a clear center image and some height (but not much) but very little depth, if any. hmm. The sound was fantastic though and although the speakers didn't disapper it was the closest I've heard.

So then I tried a few different albums and a 9' triangle which involved moving the chair and speakers towards their walls but did quick measures and fine tuning (not quite as OCD as the previous but close). The sound stage was obviously wider but a bit "thinner". But somehow sounded just as good - just different - maybe more like a live concert (sort of). Also wasn't deep.

Then 8.25 and sounded good also but not as good as 7.5 or 9.

Then my wife came home, volume down to 0.

With the GIK panels arrving tomrrow and no more seat time for the next 10 days I have to think about which I liked better - the 7.5 or 9 triangle. hmmm.

Hoping that w/ the GIK panels and then getting the ABB1s in place it will take a step further towards dissapearing and sound stage depth. Will do more reading also...

Tangram

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Re: Bass traps for open baffle not really needed?
« Reply #29 on: 3 Nov 2022, 12:31 am »
Thanks for taking us along on your journey. Spatials are fine "instruments" that respond (sometimes a lot) to changes in equipment, room, and placement. It is a lot of fun to experiment. I will go out on a limb and say that when you get it right, it will be very obvious, an epiphany.

forky

Re: Bass traps for open baffle not really needed?
« Reply #30 on: 3 Nov 2022, 05:19 pm »
Sure, I don't and didn't know if anyone was interested but I had enough time and caffine  :D so I wrote it out. I'm went with the 7.5 (7.6) triangle as I remesured everything last night. I'm hoping the panels will help w/ depth. It is the best I've heard them for sure - soundstage wise.

bobh123

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Re: Bass traps for open baffle not really needed?
« Reply #31 on: 4 Nov 2022, 05:06 am »
I didn't want to cover most surfaces with panels because of cost and looks in a room that has other purposes.  My compromise using all GIK:

One 2x4 ceiling absorption panel at the reflection points for sound from the tweeters.
Four bass/diffusion panels about 3 ft behind my M3's, two behind each M3
Two absorption panels on the side walls at the reflection points from the tweeters
One corner bass panel to my right side; couldn't fit one to my left side because of other items.
One 2x3 absorption panel and one 1x4 bass panel behind my head

While the frequency response from my chair isn't completely flat, it's decent and I've tamed one room peak around 70 Hz.  I don't listen to much heavy bass so didn't add more bass units to further tame.

Bob

RonN5

Re: Bass traps for open baffle not really needed?
« Reply #32 on: 4 Nov 2022, 03:35 pm »
In my case M3 Sapphires 45” out from rear wall at least 6’ from side walls 9’ apart and 9’ from listening position….angled so the right speaker points at the right ear and left to left… tilted 3 degrees more upright… no treatments… no Gaia feet… no subwoofer… low end is detailed and powerful.

theclipper

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Re: Bass traps for open baffle not really needed?
« Reply #33 on: 11 Nov 2022, 03:40 pm »
In my case M3 Sapphires 45” out from rear wall at least 6’ from side walls 9’ apart and 9’ from listening position….angled so the right speaker points at the right ear and left to left… tilted 3 degrees more upright… no treatments… no Gaia feet… no subwoofer… low end is detailed and powerful.

How did you make sure the rake angle was totally equal for each speaker? I’m having a hard time with that. I’ve tried using a digital level against the back of the speakers, but it still seems slightly off.

I’ve also got the tweeters basically pointed at each respective ear. Though too often it sounds like the music is coming from either speaker, rather than having the speakers disappear. Do you run into that at all?

SoCalWJS

Re: Bass traps for open baffle not really needed?
« Reply #34 on: 11 Nov 2022, 04:02 pm »
How did you make sure the rake angle was totally equal for each speaker? I’m having a hard time with that. I’ve tried using a digital level against the back of the speakers, but it still seems slightly off.

I’ve also got the tweeters basically pointed at each respective ear. Though too often it sounds like the music is coming from either speaker, rather than having the speakers disappear. Do you run into that at all?
I use lasers. Laser level &/or laser pointer. Pick a surface on the speaker that you can square the laser to, then get them so they point equally to a a point behind listening position or side wall if necessary (depends on where the “flat” surface on your speaker is)

theclipper

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Re: Bass traps for open baffle not really needed?
« Reply #35 on: 11 Nov 2022, 04:34 pm »
I use lasers. Laser level &/or laser pointer. Pick a surface on the speaker that you can square the laser to, then get them so they point equally to a a point behind listening position or side wall if necessary (depends on where the “flat” surface on your speaker is)

Thanks for your response! Have tried that as well, but didn’t seem to work. Maybe I’ll have to try again from another spot on the speaker.

SoCalWJS

Re: Bass traps for open baffle not really needed?
« Reply #36 on: 12 Nov 2022, 01:36 am »
Thanks for your response! Have tried that as well, but didn’t seem to work. Maybe I’ll have to try again from another spot on the speaker.

Yeah, finding a “Flat/Square” surface on some speakers can be a PITA. It doesn’t matter what direction that the flat surface faces. You can find one that means that the Laser is pointing to a side wall - that’s fine. Just take measurements along the side wall and make sure they are Equi-distant.

It is much easier if the surface you use makes the laser point to the main listening position though……  :green: