Midrange help. Domes vs. cones?

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T_love16

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Midrange help. Domes vs. cones?
« on: 3 Feb 2021, 02:23 pm »
Hello everyone,

I'm a bonafide freshman here, so I apologise for any naivety with this query. I'm definitely still in the learning and listening phase with all of this.

I am working on a 3-way loudspeaker project where I have a fairly clear (soup-like) idea of what I want the end product to be... the 'design parameters' maybe??

I am, however, lost when it comes to the many midrange options out there. A few years ago, I would have gone straight to a Wavecore / Scanspeak / SB midrange strategy. Maybe a 2 x 4" - 5 1/2" dedicated mid-woofers in parallel for an MTM + woofer idea? Or maybe just a single dedicated midrange or planar option?

Now there seems to be some promising midrange dome options, with high sensitivity and great freq/HD measurements. Maybe they've always existed, and I've just missed the boat? Anyway, I'm very interested and very confused...

Here are my design thinkings (3 way, MTM + Woofer, OR more likely a standard 3-way system). Please let me know any thoughts on these ideas, a lot is 'good old wishful thinking':

• Full range system, with a 'big', transparent sound stage. Think JBL L100 / Klipsch Heresy IV etc.
• High sensitivity - 93 db+ (2.83V/1m)
• Extended and even SPL frequency response (heavy on a version of R&D = measuring, adjusting, measuring. adjusting)
• Minimal nonlinear distortion, good off axis response.. however I'm not not scrupulous here; I'm after a loudspeaker with character and definition.
• Dual 10" Woofers, approx. 40Hz to 500Hz (considering Volt BM2500.4 https://voltloudspeakers.co.uk/loudspeakers/bm25004-10/))
• Looking at Beryllium tweeter, waveguide / baby horn (considering https://sbacoustics.com/wp-content/u...TW29BNWG-4.pdf)
• Midrange... I need advice!

Has anyone used dome midranges in a 3-way? What are your thoughts? What are the sound characteristics?

I was looking at the purchasing these two to test:

SATORI MD60N-6: Satori MD60N-6 | HiFiCompass
VOLT VM752: https://voltloudspeakers.co.uk/wp-co...4/06/VM752.pdf

Any advice or ideas with this stuff?

Thanks.

Tim

S Clark

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Re: Midrange help. Domes vs. cones?
« Reply #1 on: 3 Feb 2021, 04:35 pm »
The problem is that you can't just throw multiple drivers together and expect things to work.  Crossover design is for experts or really dedicated amateurs with experience and measuring gear.  If you are looking for good sound, buy a kit. If you are just looking to play with drivers, buy whatever you want. 

rollo

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Re: Midrange help. Domes vs. cones?
« Reply #2 on: 3 Feb 2021, 04:55 pm »
  Many options. Any reason for 3-way design over two way ? I would choose one manf of drivers as it would easier to design crossover.  Scanspeak makes excellent drivers. Many to choose from. Dome tweeters are well liked. Do some research on drivers. Check the Manf sites very helpful. If it gets a bit to much Check out GR Research Kits.  have fun trying.

charles

dB Cooper

Re: Midrange help. Domes vs. cones?
« Reply #3 on: 3 Feb 2021, 05:41 pm »
Any reason for 3-way design over two way ?

One of the oldest debates in audio. I remember the literature for the original Advent Loudspeaker (I'm old) saying, flatly, no. But I also remember Allison saying that some of their design objectives were better achieved by a three-way approach. So implementation surely plays a part. Technical progress has resulted in wider-bandwidth drivers over the years. So it's easier to pull off than in, say, the Advent Loudspeaker days. I have noticed at shows that- speaking only for myself- that there is a strong inverse correlation between the complexity of a design and how much I like it. I mentioned this to an Audio Note rep at a show and he responded, "The more complex a design, the harder it is to maintain the illusion that the sound is coming from a single source." I largely agree but of course YMMV.

My 2¢ regarding a couple of the OP questions:

  • High sensitivity- unless you're into the flea-watt amp thing, don't worry about this too much. Power is cheap
  • Dome midranges- less common than they used to be and I'm not sure why. AR and Allison amongst others were known for them. No technical reason why they won't work. Salk uses an inverted dome mid in some models

There are good and not-so-good implementations of any design approach you can name. The 'configuration' isn't necessarily predictive of the result. Answer the big questions- How big is your room, how much room do you have for speakers, how much power will you have, how loud do you want to get, and what sort of presentation best allows you to 'suspend disbelief' and forget I am listening to a recording on a playback system. Whatever you want, there are many ways to get there. Unless you are looking to engage in the equivalent of a career change and going back to school, I think the suggestion to look at GR Research is a good one if you want the satisfaction that comes from looking at your system and being able to say to yourself, "I made that." FWIW I have never heard a really first rate sound from a DIY system at a show. Leave the engineering to the 'pros' otherwise you could just end up throwing money at the goal, hoping something sticks.

Folsom

Re: Midrange help. Domes vs. cones?
« Reply #4 on: 3 Feb 2021, 05:45 pm »
You might want to look at https://www.pispeakers.com

Also I second the thought about crossovers. Your home made speaker will probably be garble at best on the first try, until you learn a lot. Expect rebuilds and replacing drivers likely for a first build. (because of incompatibility, not destruction)

Rusty Jefferson

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Re: Midrange help. Domes vs. cones?
« Reply #5 on: 3 Feb 2021, 05:52 pm »
Someone else recently asked a very similar question.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=174497.0

I would prefer a dome mid in a standard-ish 3-way like a JBL L100. I have a friend with something very much like that using the Volt 12" woofer, 3" mid, and a dome tweeter. Excellent power handling with low distortion. Like a studio monitor, very clear and powerful with excellent imaging.

Some companies like Quested use one, two, or even four 10" woofers with the same 3" dome mid and tweeter. If sound pressure is important, a 3-way with a dome mid would be the way to go. Best to go fully active with something like this. 

dB Cooper

Re: Midrange help. Domes vs. cones?
« Reply #6 on: 3 Feb 2021, 06:11 pm »
You might want to look at https://www.pispeakers.com

Also I second the thought about crossovers. Your home made speaker will probably be garble at best on the first try, until you learn a lot. Expect rebuilds and replacing drivers likely for a first build. (because of incompatibility, not destruction)

I have heard designers say they spend more time and design effort getting the crossover right than any other single aspect of a design.

Endo2112

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Re: Midrange help. Domes vs. cones?
« Reply #7 on: 3 Feb 2021, 06:53 pm »
So if you use dsp you take care that task;

-how big is your room??
-what type of bass are you expecting( flat to 20?), bass costs money, are you planning to have subs as an option?

Don

T_love16

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Re: Midrange help. Domes vs. cones?
« Reply #8 on: 3 Feb 2021, 10:32 pm »
The problem is that you can't just throw multiple drivers together and expect things to work.  Crossover design is for experts or really dedicated amateurs with experience and measuring gear.  If you are looking for good sound, buy a kit. If you are just looking to play with drivers, buy whatever you want.

A lot of assumptions made here. Thanks for the encouragement.

T_love16

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Re: Midrange help. Domes vs. cones?
« Reply #9 on: 3 Feb 2021, 11:37 pm »
  • High sensitivity- unless you're into the flea-watt amp thing, don't worry about this too much. Power is cheap
  • Dome midranges- less common than they used to be and I'm not sure why. AR and Allison amongst others were known for them. No technical reason why they won't work. Salk uses an inverted dome mid in some models
There are good and not-so-good implementations of any design approach you can name. The 'configuration' isn't necessarily predictive of the result. Answer the big questions- How big is your room, how much room do you have for speakers, how much power will you have, how loud do you want to get, and what sort of presentation best allows you to 'suspend disbelief' and forget I am listening to a recording on a playback system. Whatever you want, there are many ways to get there. Unless you are looking to engage in the equivalent of a career change and going back to school, I think the suggestion to look at GR Research is a good one if you want the satisfaction that comes from looking at your system and being able to say to yourself, "I made that." FWIW I have never heard a really first rate sound from a DIY system at a show. Leave the engineering to the 'pros' otherwise you could just end up throwing money at the goal, hoping something sticks.

Thanks for your insights. I couldn't agree with you more on all of this. It's funny you mentioned going back to school. I've recently enrolled in a night course in audio and speaker electronics here in Melbourne. I really like your suggestions of thinking about the bigger questions first. Starting with those makes a lot of sense.

I have built a couple of Danny's kits. The AV-1 & NX Studio. They're wonderful and you do learn a lot from the build process. Danny's crossover work and the drivers he's designed (esp the Peerless of India ones) are nothing short of incredible. He's an expert, and a really nice fella - this shows in his products line.
I've since ventured into experimenting on my own, all the while trying to learn from the experts and amateurs willing to help. Hence why I've come here to Audio Circle.

I should make it clear; I'm am wanting to endure the process of designing crossovers and enclosures to LEARN. Trust me, my first few attempts were garbage and my next 10 will probably be garbage too. However, I do understand the importance of a crossover network, and of the fundamental design thinking that's required to get anywhere near a decent end product. I'm wanting to do this because it genuinely interests me.

If I wanted to continue to hone my glueing and veneering skills; I'd continue to buy kits.

Thanks for your help here, I'll go back to those bigger picture questions and revise my process.





T_love16

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Re: Midrange help. Domes vs. cones?
« Reply #10 on: 3 Feb 2021, 11:53 pm »
So if you use dsp you take care that task;

-how big is your room??
-what type of bass are you expecting( flat to 20?), bass costs money, are you planning to have subs as an option?

Don


Room is 36 sqm.
Happy with anything around 30-40Hz I guess... I think the more important thing is how the crossover marries the woofer with the midrange. I'm not after earth-shaking bass.
My concerns are internal distortions, port chuffing etc.
I don't want to run subs for this particular project.

I am interested in your thoughts on midrange options if you have any.

T_love16

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Re: Midrange help. Domes vs. cones?
« Reply #11 on: 3 Feb 2021, 11:55 pm »
You might want to look at https://www.pispeakers.com

Also I second the thought about crossovers. Your home made speaker will probably be garble at best on the first try, until you learn a lot. Expect rebuilds and replacing drivers likely for a first build. (because of incompatibility, not destruction)

Yep. Thanks for that!

T_love16

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Re: Midrange help. Domes vs. cones?
« Reply #12 on: 3 Feb 2021, 11:59 pm »
  Many options. Any reason for 3-way design over two way ? I would choose one manf of drivers as it would easier to design crossover.  Scanspeak makes excellent drivers. Many to choose from. Dome tweeters are well liked. Do some research on drivers. Check the Manf sites very helpful. If it gets a bit to much Check out GR Research Kits.  have fun trying.

charles

Thnaks Charles,

I want to do a 3-way to learn more. I've done many, many 2-way systems and quite a few kits (Gr research, Loudspeaker project (aus)).

I'll take a look at Manf and continue to research.


T_love16

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Re: Midrange help. Domes vs. cones?
« Reply #13 on: 4 Feb 2021, 12:01 am »
I have heard designers say they spend more time and design effort getting the crossover right than any other single aspect of a design.

The best, most expensive drivers, enclosures, materials are nothing without a well-designed crossover. I could agree more.

S Clark

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Re: Midrange help. Domes vs. cones?
« Reply #14 on: 4 Feb 2021, 01:05 am »
A lot of assumptions made here. Thanks for the encouragement.
If I've made assumptions, it's because I've been down this road before.  If I'm wrong, and you have the experience and the measuring gear to design a crossover, then you can find your way to excellent sound.  And more power to you.   I've got 4 dome midrange out in the garage from when I was just starting.  They are still there almost 20 years later. 
Just saying it isn't as easy as you might think. 

NoDisco

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Re: Midrange help. Domes vs. cones?
« Reply #15 on: 4 Feb 2021, 01:08 am »
I have a 3 way system with crossover only for the subs. I run omegas with super tweeters. Very Happy.

WGH

Re: Midrange help. Domes vs. cones?
« Reply #16 on: 4 Feb 2021, 01:40 am »
• Full range system, with a 'big', transparent sound stage. Think JBL L100 / Klipsch Heresy IV etc.

I bought the original JBL L88-1 back in 1972 and converted the speaker to a L100 by adding the LE5-2 midrange. The L88 uses the same 12" 123A woofer and LE20-1 dome tweeter as the L100. A 8uF cap and L-pad completed the conversion. I have listened to the speakers daily since 1972, first at home then at my woodshop. "Full range system, with a 'big', transparent sound stage" would not be my description, it would be "FUN!" Bass rolls off fast below 40 Hz, they don't float a center image at all, music presentation is front row wall of sound but they are the best shop stereo ever!

I also had the Klipsch Quartet as shop speakers before the JBL. The Klipsch sounded great and rocked with a NAD receiver but didn't sound so good when I upgraded the electronics. The NAD softened the highs which was exactly what the Klipsch needed. Higher end electronics exposed the Klipsch's flaws.

But this is a story about 3 crossovers and how the same 3 drivers and 3 designers come up with 3 different layouts.

The original JBL L100 has minimal parts, the 12" woofer is run full range.


Troels Gravesen measured and designed a new crossover to fix the L100 "flaws"


Dennis Murphy also tried his hand at a modern crossover design for the L100. Dennis is a master and designs all the crossovers for Salk speakers (my favorites) and his own company Philharmonic Audio.


My L100's are stock but I did replace the original crossover parts with equal but better parts. I haven't heard the upgrades but one person has:
https://audionostalgia.co.uk/jbl-l100-crossover-upgrade/

"I like the JBLs for what they are and accept them with their faults...
"Therefore, if you want to improve your beloved JBL L100, my advice would be to stick to the original crossover topology, replace the capacitors with better quality ones and replace the variable L-pads with new ones"

Enjoy your education about crossover design, measurements help but are not the end-all to make a classic speaker. But not very many people ever make a classic, even JBL is trying to capture lightning in a bottle twice with a "New" JBL L100, I haven't heard it yet but I have my doubts. I'm waiting to hear the new L100's at a show and yell out "I own the originals and these, sir, ARE NOT L100's".

T_love16

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Re: Midrange help. Domes vs. cones?
« Reply #17 on: 4 Feb 2021, 09:09 am »
If I've made assumptions, it's because I've been down this road before.  If I'm wrong, and you have the experience and the measuring gear to design a crossover, then you can find your way to excellent sound.  And more power to you.   I've got 4 dome midrange out in the garage from when I was just starting.  They are still there almost 20 years later. 
Just saying it isn't as easy as you might think.

I never said it was easy.

You were the first person to reply to my very first thread here on Audio Circle. Next time you reply to a 'newbie', maybe check your own prejudices and keep your presumptions to yourself? From what I can gather, it doesn't exactly stimulate the Audio Circle spirit - an inclusive, knowledge-sharing community.

No harm done though, Mr. Clark! I'll be happy to learn from you, if you have anything worthwhile to add here?

T_love16

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Re: Midrange help. Domes vs. cones?
« Reply #18 on: 4 Feb 2021, 09:12 am »
I bought the original JBL L88-1 back in 1972 and converted the speaker to a L100 by adding the LE5-2 midrange. The L88 uses the same 12" 123A woofer and LE20-1 dome tweeter as the L100. A 8uF cap and L-pad completed the conversion. I have listened to the speakers daily since 1972, first at home then at my woodshop. "Full range system, with a 'big', transparent sound stage" would not be my description, it would be "FUN!" Bass rolls off fast below 40 Hz, they don't float a center image at all, music presentation is front row wall of sound but they are the best shop stereo ever!

I also had the Klipsch Quartet as shop speakers before the JBL. The Klipsch sounded great and rocked with a NAD receiver but didn't sound so good when I upgraded the electronics. The NAD softened the highs which was exactly what the Klipsch needed. Higher end electronics exposed the Klipsch's flaws.

But this is a story about 3 crossovers and how the same 3 drivers and 3 designers come up with 3 different layouts.

The original JBL L100 has minimal parts, the 12" woofer is run full range.


Troels Gravesen measured and designed a new crossover to fix the L100 "flaws"


Dennis Murphy also tried his hand at a modern crossover design for the L100. Dennis is a master and designs all the crossovers for Salk speakers (my favorites) and his own company Philharmonic Audio.


My L100's are stock but I did replace the original crossover parts with equal but better parts. I haven't heard the upgrades but one person has:
https://audionostalgia.co.uk/jbl-l100-crossover-upgrade/

"I like the JBLs for what they are and accept them with their faults...
"Therefore, if you want to improve your beloved JBL L100, my advice would be to stick to the original crossover topology, replace the capacitors with better quality ones and replace the variable L-pads with new ones"

Enjoy your education about crossover design, measurements help but are not the end-all to make a classic speaker. But not very many people ever make a classic, even JBL is trying to capture lightning in a bottle twice with a "New" JBL L100, I haven't heard it yet but I have my doubts. I'm waiting to hear the new L100's at a show and yell out "I own the originals and these, sir, ARE NOT L100's".

Haha, I cannot wait to hear what you think of the new ones!

Thanks so much for posting this, very, very interesting.

Tyson

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Re: Midrange help. Domes vs. cones?
« Reply #19 on: 4 Feb 2021, 02:51 pm »
If you're going to do a 3 way speaker, then a small dome midrange is the way to go, IMO.  It gives you a number of advantages that a larger cone doesn't.  First, it keeps the same shape/radiating surface as your tweeter.  So it's easier to integrate and get a seamless sound from a tonal standpoint.  Second, since it's small, you can place it physically closer to the tweeter on the baffle, which makes it easier to get smooth vertical off axis response.  Third, since it's smaller, it will typically be able to cross over to the tweeter a bit higher than a typical midrange driver, while still keeping more even polar response in the crossover region. 

I'd recommend to build separate sub-unit inside your speaker that houses the mid/tweeter only, so it's sealed off acoustically from the back pressure waves of your bass drivers. 

The other thing I've noticed is that with a 3 way speaker, you end up with more (and larger) parts in the signal path, so quality of those parts become even more important.  Cheap parts are fine for the design portion and the fine tuning, but for the final speaker, splurge on good quality caps and coils.