How about VMPS selling drivers if....

warnerwh · « **on:** 3 Oct 2003, 04:42 am »

Brian: Alot of people would be happy to purchase drivers from you. I don't remember why you don't want to and know you'll sell kits without cabinets. How about only selling drivers to people who also buy subwoofers? Anybody wanting to try a DIY project will need bass and you win in the bass per dollar arena so I'd only buy one of your subs anyway, as I'm sure others would. This idea I believe would at least make it so you are essentially still selling a speaker system. The reason I posted in public is because I'd like to see/hear what others think of this idea. If not could you please point us in the right direction for a great midrange ribbon panel that extends from at least 300hz and goes to 5k? TIA

Ravi · « **Reply #1 on:** 3 Oct 2003, 05:17 am »

Here's an idea. Why not purchase a set of Monsoon MM1000 speakers for around $250. It has 4 panels identical to VMPS (or pretty much), and a powered sub. Just disconnect the 4 panels from the sub, and plop them in a box (2 in each), cross a tweeter at 5khz, and then a woofer for 300hz and below. A simple 1st order should work. The MM1000 panels go extremely loud without distortion, and are designed to cover the 200hz to 10khz range almost flat. It would end up costing you $62 per panel, and is virutally identical to VMPS.

Its crazy enough to just work. I've thought of trying this myself. It requires a little tinkering, but Red Green would be very proud. Don't even need screws to fasten the ribbon panels, just use ductape!

doug s. · « **Reply #2 on:** 3 Oct 2003, 11:12 am »

ravi, according to brian, the monsoon drivers are similar to the vmps drivers in appearance only - the vmps iterations are completely rebuilt, & sound much different...

doug s.

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #3 on:** 3 Oct 2003, 03:15 pm »

Monsoon/Level 9 ceased operations Aug 30, 2003. There are no products available. There is no warranty on any products in the field, and no parts are available.

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #4 on:** 3 Oct 2003, 03:25 pm »

We do not sell raw drivers for a variety of reasons.

First, it is sheer agony building the drivers to begin with, starting with importing the cones. We don't have the time to make a lot of them.

Second, I don't have the time to deal with DIY customers, who are a particularly needy bunch. Most DIY designs have significant problems for which their builders will blame us. Resolving such problems is nearly impossible over the phone or web.

Third, I don't want VMPS clones popping up, claiming to give the same performance for a lower price. For example I trim our crossovers to four decimal places (up to 1/2000th of 1%) and this precision is vital to performance. I don't know of any DIY'er who could do this. Popular belief is that 1% parts are top of the line. We laugh at such tolerances.

Fourth, there are many parts houses which sell imported lookalikes at very low prices. I can't spend telephone time explaining the differences.

If you want to save money and do a lot of work yourself, buy a kit without cabinet and get the sound quality you paid for.

azryan · « **Reply #5 on:** 3 Oct 2003, 05:21 pm »

Just say you don't want to which is totally your right and fine.

The rest seems seems like an excuse to me.

"-First, it is sheer agony building the drivers to begin with, starting with importing the cones. We don't have the time to make a lot of them."

So? Wouldn't that just be reflected in the cost then? If it takes a tremendous ammount of time/effort then charge $200 a Neo panel and no one will buy them because your own speakers with them are a FAR better deal. But then you actually DO sell them for DIY and you get the many people who've asked you to sell them raw drivers to stop asking you.

Two birds. One stone.

"-Second, I don't have the time to deal with DIY customers, who are a particularly needy bunch.-"

A simple disclaimer stating -"What you do with these drivers is your own business. VMPS is NOT responcible for your final design nor the posibility of you damaging the drivers during design or use. Purchase at your own risk. We also can NOT field custom design questions of any kind."

No?

"-Most DIY designs have significant problems for which their builders will blame us."

Let 'em. That's there prob. is they design something bad. That should not reflect on you in the least.
If they emailed you privatley you'd email back a copy of that disclaimer.
If they posted publicly there'd be ton of people who'd tell the person that it's their problem not yours.

"-Third, I don't want VMPS clones popping up, claiming to give the same performance for a lower price.-"

Part of the disclaimer states that owners can not claim they've built actual VMPS speakers.

"-For example I trim our crossovers to four decimal places (up to 1/2000th of 1%) and this precision is vital to performance. "

Only the custom ones right? Not all the caps. Not that this is related to the raw driver thing.

"-I don't know of any DIY'er who could do this. Popular belief is that 1% parts are top of the line. We laugh at such tolerances."

That should be something that you can always make clear and to sepp. your speakers from DIY designs just like you do vs. all other speaker designs.
It'd only make VMPS look all the better than people want to use YOUR drivers. Most people are just NOT going to be making DIY speakers, so it's not like it's going to hurt your buisness.

"-Fourth, there are many parts houses which sell imported lookalikes at very low prices. I can't spend telephone time explaining the differences."

If there are already these part houses out there, then how does you selling your drivers change that?

"-If you want to save money and do a lot of work yourself, buy a kit without cabinet and get the sound quality you paid for."

At least for me when in the past was thinking about doing a VMPS kit, I had actually wanted to do diff. config. of drivers than your RM lines.

If you don't sell the raw drivers then someone can't do that.

Your choice, but I think 'diff. designs' are what people who want your raw drivers are mostly looking to do.

I know I would have liked to do a narrow line of Neo long before the RM/X came out... but w/ less deep bass compliment since I'd cross the mains over into dual 16Hz tuned, corner loaded subs.

Do whatever you like of course. Just some thoughts on the matter.

wshuff · « **Reply #6 on:** 3 Oct 2003, 06:44 pm »

Well, I've never been able to understand how to use the quote function, so do it the old fashioned way. I have John Houseman type it for me again...from beyond the grave. Anyway...

Brian, you wrote:

"Monsoon/Level 9 ceased operations Aug 30, 2003. There are no products available. There is no warranty on any products in the field, and no parts are available."

Did you get your drivers from Level 9, and if so, will that have any impact on your ability to get the Neos for VMPS speakers? I remember reading something you posted long ago about Dragoslav (?) disappearing or something, and refusing to return phone calls. I hope this news doesn't cause any trouble for you, and as a customer who dreams of one day having many more Neo panels in my speakers, I hope it doesn't cause problems for me.

warnerwh · « **Reply #7 on:** 3 Oct 2003, 09:50 pm »

Brian: thank you for the response. Didn't dawn on me how your ear would end up shaped like the earpiece on a phone from all the DIY'ER problems that would no doubt arise. A tower without woofers would be nice though. Maybe two towers, one with 4 mids and the other with two. It wouldn't have to be elaborate at all. Possibly making the various subs the options that go with them. I'd much rather have someone else do what I want anyway.

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #8 on:** 3 Oct 2003, 11:21 pm »

We haven't bought anything from Level 9 in over a year so we have the situation covered.

We adjust every crossover part of every speaker to the zero tolerance by trimming and cherrypicking. I do it myself.

Rocket · « **Reply #9 on:** 4 Oct 2003, 09:16 am »

hi,

after reading brian's post i can't fault what he has said and the reasons he has given are perfectly understandable.

they don't just sound like an excuse to me.

regards

rocket

doug s. · « **Reply #10 on:** 4 Oct 2003, 01:56 pm »

i won't argue w/brian about his reasons either, but...

if he offered pre-packaged kits, based, for example, on cabinetry he could design in his sleep,

, per this thread,
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=4944
then he wouldn't have to gear up his manufacturing to deal with another cabinet design. he could yust sell the complete kit, w/cabinet instructions, as he offers now, for his pre-made models...

doug s.

rosconey · « **Reply #11 on:** 4 Oct 2003, 02:50 pm »

if you guys want custom stuff just call rick craig,he does great stuff.
you wont have vmps drivers but there are alot of ribbons out there now.
big b doesnt have enough time too make his own ideas yet alone work on other peoples =if you want custom work call a custom designer-unless of coarse your jim b and have a napkin in front of you

.

TLS · « **Reply #12 on:** 4 Oct 2003, 09:09 pm »

Brian is a designer and speaker manufactuer he dosen't need to make excuses just good speakers, in which he does.