[rajacat]

sts9fan,
  You state that Danny won't send them out to anyone that doesn't back his conclusion- this sure seems like a personal attack without evidence. I suggest that you put yourself on the list for these speakers, and make up your own mind after having listened to them.  Simply supporting an entrenched position without listening for yourself doesn't strengthen your argument.  How can anyone argue against listening for yourself in your own room with your own system?   

+1 

[brother love]

Just so everyone is clear.  This whole thing came up when a HOBBYIST posted some of his findings.  He was having fun experimenting and sharing.  He was then run out by PROFESSIONALS with finacial interests. 
Anyway is seems Danny is not going to share the speakers with anyone who may not agree with him or is not getting "the press" involved.

I agree w/ your initial comments, but totally disagree w/ your final assessment ...

Here is the thread that started in GR Research forum as a follow-up to DanTheMan's Audiocircle Lab thread (referenced in 1st post):  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=83841.0

I think Danny was nothing but helpful & informative in both threads.  Does he have strong opinions?  Sure, but he has a very strong background in this arena.  IMO his input was nothing but professional & educational.

Others, most particularly  DanTheMan, ratcheted up the rhetoric excessively.  The thread got cleaned up & DanTheMan was put in time out due to threats given to a least one poster. I'm sure others could have been given time outs as well, but it was determined by an AC admin as to what was appropriate & inappropriate.

I am sorry that things escalated to the level they did, but DanTheMan was the main instigator for dialing up it up to the extreme.

[dvenardos]

Now you got me thinking Stephen. I wonder if I can come up with a chemistry based Don's beer satisfaction analysis. Probably would have to be a different one for stouts, ales, and lagers. Then I could just buy beer based on the measurements.

That we are talking about the quality of sound gives us a kind of hybrid terrain where scientists are not altogether at home or welcome.  If we were talking about the quality of a wine we would barely care what the scientists say about it as there is nothing very meaningful (as of right now) for them to measure.  If we want advice on good wine we would get a wine tasting expert.  Someone who evaluates with his senses.    Scientists are fine with quantity but to my knowledge they don't handle quality any better than the rest of us.  In audio, there are a lot of subtleties that are just not measured.  Which ones?  I wish I knew...

[HAL]

Cheesesteaks!  Now I'm hungary!  I like the chicken versions!   

[Wayne1]

WARNING !! THREADJACK

Now you got me thinking Stephen. I wonder if I can come up with a chemistry based Don's beer satisfaction analysis. Probably would have to be a different one for stouts, ales, and lagers. Then I could just buy beer based on the measurements.

There are fairly tight parameters in place for beer style guidelines. Please see Beer Judge Certification Program Styles Guidelines

You can measure the alcohol content, color and overall bitterness with instrumentation. I am not aware of any tests for flavor or aroma not involving a human actually drinking and smelling. While overall bitterness can be measured it is very easy to have two beers that measure the same, taste completely different.

Back to the thread.

Wayne, BJCP Certified Beer Judge since 1987

[turkey]

I am sorry that things escalated to the level they did, but DanTheMan was the main instigator for dialing up it up to the extreme.

I suppose he took things too far, but he also made some very good points. Danny obviously still hasn't recovered from the drubbing he took.

[dvenardos]

Well, if they measure the same and you think they taste different, clearly it is all in your head.   

While overall bitterness can be measured it is very easy to have two beers that measure the same, taste completely different.

[dBe]

I suppose he took things too far, but he also made some very good points. Danny obviously still hasn't recovered from the drubbing he took.

  Really?

Dave

[Tyson]

Well, if they measure the same and you think they taste different, clearly it is all in your head.   

YOUR TONGUE HATES YOU AND TRIES TO DECEIVE YOU AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY - DO NOT TRUST IT!  SAME GOES FOR YOUR NOSE AND EARS!!

[dBe]

YOUR TONGUE HATES YOU AND TRIES TO DECEIVE YOU AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY - DO NOT TRUST IT!  SAME GOES FOR YOUR NOSE AND EARS!!

Gosh, I laughed so hard I almost cried on this one.

Dave

[Mrs. Ninja]

So exactly what are you all discussing anymore?

1) Science v/s Engeneering?
2) Danny v/s DantheMan (in some other thread) battle?
3) The subjectiveness of ones hearing?

or

That Danny has made an offer and we all should wait and see that the public hears and reports back? Wanna be part of that listening audience then contact Danny and get on the list and be one of the cool people. Until then 1,2, and 3 will never be solved because they are opinions and you can defend them its your constitutional right but you will probably never change anyone else's. Only hey can do that for themselves.

Hear the speakers, get educated and then rejoin the conversation.
Mrs. Ninja

[wushuliu]

Wayne, BJCP Certified Beer Judge since 1987

Oh boy, am I in the wrong hobby. Y'all can keep your measurements and fancy caps, I want to certifiably judge beer!

[HAL]

Oh boy, am I in the wrong hobby. Y'all can keep your measurements and fancy caps, I want to certifiably judge beer!

+1 on the judging! 

[Zerogravity]

Mmmmmm....BEER....Mmmmm....slurp!

[Chu Gai]

Hi Danny,

If you can, would you comment on whether you measured the impedance and phase of the speaker with both the stock crossover and the one you designed? If so, would you mind terribly posting the graphs? Also, in your listening evaluations I believe you said you hooked the speakers up to some sort of a tube amp. Is there a link somewhere that discusses the output impedance of the amp's various taps? Lastly, did you perform any listening tests using a solid state amp?

[SoCalWJS]

 

 

(eat popcorn emoticon)

[Danny Richie]

I had to check the impedance of each crossover to make sure it was all wired correctly. This is how I realized it would take one more switch to break the circuit of each one.

The impedance curves lay right on top of each other and can do nothing else. They are identical. Phase relationship will also be the same and there is nothing between the two networks to change that.

I did not save the impedance measurements of one curved stacked right on top of the other one. It really made no sense. Once you shoot the second one you can't even see most of the first one under it.

I did save the frequency response measurements of each one though.

I did my listening on a $50,000 set of custom built tube amps. They have 4 and 8 ohm taps and I listened on both of them. I also listened some on a Virtue audio amp that was used for burning them in. Whether the listening amp is tube or solid state will have no baring on the audible differences between the crossovers.

[Chu Gai]

Just so I understand then, you're saying that you measured the impedance of the speaker as a function of frequency with each crossover and found that the graphs were virtually a dead overlay with respect to both impedance and phase angle. Kind of like what Atkinson does. Right? So your curves would've kind of looked like this example with both being more or less indistinguishable.

[Danny Richie]

Impedance and phase are both taken from the same tune burst or tone sweep. Any changes to one means changes to the other. You can't have identical impedance curves and differences in phase.

And yes, the impedance curves were dead on each other.

[markie]

YOUR TONGUE HATES YOU AND TRIES TO DECEIVE YOU AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY - DO NOT TRUST IT!  SAME GOES FOR YOUR NOSE AND EARS!!

Yes that's a good chuckle! It has some biblical support to boot:

James 3:6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one’s life on fire...

 
James would have said something similar about ears but ran out of time. Paul managed to squeeze something in about 'itching ears' only wanting to hear what they want. Clearly a veiled prophecy about the placebo effect listening to supposed tweaks in audio systems.