Omnidirectional bass or subwoofer or what?

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ricardojoa

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Omnidirectional bass or subwoofer or what?
« on: 16 May 2013, 07:09 pm »
Hi,
i would like to start up a discussion about whether you guys think that bass (low frequencies) are omnidirectional or is the subwoofer that is actually omnidirectional.

I personally dont agree with either, but most people, even lots of designer says that frequencies belwo 80 hz are hard to localize so they are omnidirectional. For one, how can LOW frequency or frequency be omnidirectional?  A frequency is a measurement or an information. It is not a source, so how can someone assume frequency as omnidirectional? It is like saying that an omnidirectional light, their lumen are omnidirectional but infact it is the light source (bulb) that is omni. I have heard about omnidirectional speaker, micropphone, lightning, anthena and all are papaple objects.
If we are discribing that a subwoofer that is a omnirectional device, then is a suwoofer with a 120HZ cut off still consider omnidirectional subwoofer? Do only subs with cut off below 80hz consider omnidirectional subs? If the sub is a omnidirectional device, what happends if we put a large front baffle with a length equal to the wave length of the cut off frequency and do a measurement from behind the subwoofer to see if the response would be equal to measuring it in front of it ? The front baffle should be able block (difract) the intended frequency. So the measurements from behind and from the front of the subwoofer would be different. In that case, then the subwoofer is not an omnidirectional device.

I personally think that low frequency are just non directional. Though they seem pretty similar wording to omnidirectional, the difference is that the omni fires to all directions and non directional are more like with no direction.  With both to have pretty similar meaning as to not be able to locate it.

So what do guys think? :)

bpape

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Re: Omnidirectional bass or subwoofer or what?
« Reply #1 on: 16 May 2013, 07:16 pm »
Bass radiates spherically in 3 dimensions. Now, being able to localize bass and where  it comes from is completely different than not making any difference where you put a sub - that latter makes all the difference in the world.

Bryan

roscoeiii

Re: Omnidirectional bass or subwoofer or what?
« Reply #2 on: 16 May 2013, 07:26 pm »
The issue is psychoacoustics related. Not how the bass is created but the perceptual limits of our ears and brains.

ricardojoa

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Re: Omnidirectional bass or subwoofer or what?
« Reply #3 on: 16 May 2013, 07:28 pm »
hi bpape,
you said bass frequecies but you did not especified what frequencies. There is a pattern difference between 120hz, 80hz, or 20hz. Thats why i use the baffle example. Again, how can bass radiates in 3 dimension when the woofer that is actually vibrating imiting the low frequency. Bass frequency dont come out of no where, it comes from the vibration of the air, right?

*Scotty*

Re: Omnidirectional bass or subwoofer or what?
« Reply #4 on: 16 May 2013, 07:29 pm »
Bass can be directional and here's how. When a planer wave below the rooms Schroeder frequency is generated it starts at one end of the room and propagates down the length of the room until it reaches the rear wall, it is either reflected back towards the front wall or it can be canceled out or absorbed. The initial planer wavefront is directional the subsequent multiple reflections that may occur in the room can obscure the directionality of the bass. See CABS discussion here. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106838.0
Your ability to detect the direction of bass frequencies may be very poor however. If you had a single sub-woofer with a 24dB/oct crossover and you set it for 40Hz and then played back a continuous 32Hz tone you probably couldn't tell where in the room the sound was originating from.
If you use a SWARM setup consisting of multiple sub-woofers spaced around your listening room it is unlikely that the bass will be directional because no coherent planer wave has been produced by the subs. The SWARM is more akin to dropping multiple rocks in the water at the edge of a square pond, the pattern of ripples produced will be incoherent and chaotic with no large waves anywhere.
Scotty

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Re: Omnidirectional bass or subwoofer or what?
« Reply #5 on: 16 May 2013, 07:31 pm »
Geddes has talked about how it takes multiple cycles for low bass to be perceived by humans.  In an audio room, this means it has already been bouncing and reflecting off of surfaces.   

Here is a page quoting Geddes about this. and may help with the question.
http://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/

bpape

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Re: Omnidirectional bass or subwoofer or what?
« Reply #6 on: 16 May 2013, 07:36 pm »
Bass can be directional and here's how. When a planer wave below the rooms Schroeder frequency is generated it starts at one end of the room and propagates down the length of the room until it reaches the rear wall, it is either reflected back towards the front wall or it can be canceled out or absorbed. The initial planer wavefront is directional the subsequent multiple reflections that may occur in the room can obscure the directionality of the bass. See CABS discussion here. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106838.0
Your ability to detect the direction of bass frequencies may be very poor however. If you had a single sub-woofer with a 24dB/oct crossover and you set it for 40Hz and then played back a continuous 32Hz tone you probably couldn't tell where in the room the sound was originating from.
If you use a SWARM setup consisting of multiple sub-woofers spaced around your listening room it is unlikely that the bass will be directional because no coherent planer wave has been produced by the subs. The SWARM is more akin to dropping multiple rocks in the water at the edge of a square pond, the pattern of ripples produced will be incoherent and chaotic with no large waves anywhere.
Scotty

What you are describing is correct - but that doesn't make it directional. At the same time it's going down the length to come off the rear wall, it's also hitting the floor, side walls, and wrapping around the cabinets to hit the wall behind the speaker.  If bass were directional as you describe only, then a dipole would not have a figure 8 pattern as it could not cancel on the sides.

Bryan

ricardojoa

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Re: Omnidirectional bass or subwoofer or what?
« Reply #7 on: 16 May 2013, 07:41 pm »
But omni means firing in all direction from source which would be the sub, but depending on the cut off frequecy, and if is high enough, a wide front baffle could intefer the results. This goes to show that the subwoofer ( the box and the woofer) is not a source because it could intefer.
What if we take the room out of the equation? Then there will be no refletion.

ricardojoa

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Re: Omnidirectional bass or subwoofer or what?
« Reply #8 on: 16 May 2013, 07:43 pm »
What you are describing is correct - but that doesn't make it directional. At the same time it's going down the length to come off the rear wall, it's also hitting the floor, side walls, and wrapping around the cabinets to hit the wall behind the speaker.  If bass were directional as you describe only, then a dipole would not have a figure 8 pattern as it could not cancel on the sides.

Bryan

I mean non directional.

ricardojoa

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Re: Omnidirectional bass or subwoofer or what?
« Reply #9 on: 16 May 2013, 07:47 pm »
Bass can be directional and here's how. When a planer wave below the rooms Schroeder frequency is generated it starts at one end of the room and propagates down the length of the room until it reaches the rear wall, it is either reflected back towards the front wall or it can be canceled out or absorbed. The initial planer wavefront is directional the subsequent multiple reflections that may occur in the room can obscure the directionality of the bass. See CABS discussion here. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106838.0
Your ability to detect the direction of bass frequencies may be very poor however. If you had a single sub-woofer with a 24dB/oct crossover and you set it for 40Hz and then played back a continuous 32Hz tone you probably couldn't tell where in the room the sound was originating from.
If you use a SWARM setup consisting of multiple sub-woofers spaced around your listening room it is unlikely that the bass will be directional because no coherent planer wave has been produced by the subs. The SWARM is more akin to dropping multiple rocks in the water at the edge of a square pond, the pattern of ripples produced will be incoherent and chaotic with no large waves anywhere.
Scotty

Frequecies that low are very hard to localize. But at 80, is a different matter. The question is, is bass still consider omnidirctional or non directional for the proper wording?

bpape

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Re: Omnidirectional bass or subwoofer or what?
« Reply #10 on: 16 May 2013, 08:00 pm »
But omni means firing in all direction from source which would be the sub, but depending on the cut off frequecy, and if is high enough, a wide front baffle could intefer the results. This goes to show that the subwoofer ( the box and the woofer) is not a source because it could intefer.
What if we take the room out of the equation? Then there will be no refletion.

When you figure the length of waves in the bottom octave are in the 10's of feet, the baffle would in most rooms have to be the entire room.  Now an Infinite Baffle type of arrangement does address at least the rearward interaction of the waves but you're still radiating down, up, left, right, forward, etc.

Bryan

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Re: Omnidirectional bass or subwoofer or what?
« Reply #11 on: 16 May 2013, 08:05 pm »
Frequecies that low are very hard to localize. But at 80, is a different matter. The question is, is bass still consider omnidirctional or non directional for the proper wording?
how about this, in terms of speakers?
-All sound frequency emitted by a driver are omnidirectional if the wavelength is larger than the baffle...

Illustration of monopole source
http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/demos/rad2/mdq.html

Salks explanation for baffle step
http://www.salksound.com/wp/?p=42

*Scotty*

Re: Omnidirectional bass or subwoofer or what?
« Reply #12 on: 16 May 2013, 08:22 pm »
Bryan, for information on CABS and planer wavefronts below the Schroeder frequency see this link below,
http://vbn.aau.dk/files/12831869/AC-phd.pdf
Scotty

AJinFLA

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Re: Omnidirectional bass or subwoofer or what?
« Reply #13 on: 16 May 2013, 09:19 pm »
I personally dont agree with either, but most people, even lots of designer says that frequencies belwo 80 hz are hard to localize so they are omnidirectional.
Ricardo,

You are either misunderstanding/conflating what is said, or "they" saying it are confused. An enclosed piston source/cone (like a woofer in a box) radiates essentially hemispherically and when the wavelengths radiated are large relative to the baffle or enclosure, these waves simply wrap around, creating essentially omni-directional radiation. "Sub" frequencies wavelengths of say 100hz-20hz, will vary from around 11 to 56 feet, i.e much larger than the piston/enclosure. If a closed sub was lifted up in the air outside, say 20' and the dustcap was made the center point, then a mic at any point around say, a 2m sphere, would measure near exact same frequency response. It radiates omni-directionally at "sub" frequencies. This is a completely separate issue from localization.
The reason why it is said to be difficult <80hz, is because we use a "difference" signal (intensity and time) between our L and R ears to detect direction of a source. Because wavelengths have become so large <80hz, the "difference" between a signal coming from say the left of you, is relatively (very) small compared to the length of the wave itself, so there is no (or minimal) difference component to detect.
Now a tweeter, especially one mounted on the top of an enclosure ala B&W, is also radiating essentially "omni-directionally" at the lower end of its range (say 3k), but it would be quite easy to localize, as those wavelengths (around 4") are relatively small compared to the distance between your ears (and the "shading" provided by your head).

cheers,

AJ

medium jim

Re: Omnidirectional bass or subwoofer or what?
« Reply #14 on: 16 May 2013, 10:31 pm »
Sure, cone speakers emit concentric sound rings, but what about horn or planar bass?

Jim

poseidonsvoice

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Re: Omnidirectional bass or subwoofer or what?
« Reply #15 on: 17 May 2013, 12:54 am »
Ricardo,

You are either misunderstanding/conflating what is said, or "they" saying it are confused. An enclosed piston source/cone (like a woofer in a box) radiates essentially hemispherically and when the wavelengths radiated are large relative to the baffle or enclosure, these waves simply wrap around, creating essentially omni-directional radiation. "Sub" frequencies wavelengths of say 100hz-20hz, will vary from around 11 to 56 feet, i.e much larger than the piston/enclosure. If a closed sub was lifted up in the air outside, say 20' and the dustcap was made the center point, then a mic at any point around say, a 2m sphere, would measure near exact same frequency response. It radiates omni-directionally at "sub" frequencies. This is a completely separate issue from localization.
The reason why it is said to be difficult <80hz, is because we use a "difference" signal (intensity and time) between our L and R ears to detect direction of a source. Because wavelengths have become so large <80hz, the "difference" between a signal coming from say the left of you, is relatively (very) small compared to the length of the wave itself, so there is no (or minimal) difference component to detect.
Now a tweeter, especially one mounted on the top of an enclosure ala B&W, is also radiating essentially "omni-directionally" at the lower end of its range (say 3k), but it would be quite easy to localize, as those wavelengths (around 4") are relatively small compared to the distance between your ears (and the "shading" provided by your head).

cheers,

AJ

That's about the best explanation consistent with science and theory that I have read in a long, long time. Many audiophiles completely obfuscate the issue of 'bass directionality' and 'stereo bass' when at truly bass frequencies it is impossible to tell and i am thankful for that as a multi sub enthusiast! No offense please! Roscoe has it right - you have to consider the psychoacoustics - HOW do we hear and HOW does that change with frequency.

Best,
Anand.

medium jim

Re: Omnidirectional bass or subwoofer or what?
« Reply #16 on: 17 May 2013, 01:03 am »
Just put on any philharmonic symphony orchestra recording where you know where the double basses, tympani, kettle drums, contrabassoon, pipe organ, and you will be able to define said instruments within the soundstage, either live or when using stereo subs.

Psychoacoustic's are how we hear and represent things.  While low bass is a form of energy unto itself, it is directional with relation to a proper soundstage.  Call it a form of trump loy.

Jim

neekomax

Re: Omnidirectional bass or subwoofer or what?
« Reply #17 on: 17 May 2013, 01:08 am »
Just put on any philharmonic symphony orchestra recording where you know where the double basses, tympani, kettle drums, contrabassoon, pipe organ, and you will be able to define said instruments within the soundstage, either live or when using stereo subs.

Psychoacoustic's are how we hear and represent things.  While low bass is a form of energy unto itself, it is directional with relation to a proper soundstage.  Call it a form of trump loy.

Jim

I think that this would be because all (or most) of those instruments' sounds contain information that is much higher in frequency than one might expect. So the higher freq. transients might be the tipoff as to locality.

medium jim

Re: Omnidirectional bass or subwoofer or what?
« Reply #18 on: 17 May 2013, 01:23 am »
Neeko:

Precisely, but the effect is still the same with all music.  Take The Allman Brothers Live at the Fillmore East.  I know where Barry Oakly is on stage, same for Greg Allman.  You lose the coherence of the soundstage if you run the bass in mono and the same is true with all music. 

Jim

*Scotty*

Re: Omnidirectional bass or subwoofer or what?
« Reply #19 on: 17 May 2013, 01:24 am »
If you remove the upper harmonic structure from the fundamental bass frequencies produced by the aforementioned instruments, say everything above 50Hz, I would bet that the bass would cease to be directional. It's the presence of the upper harmonics accompanying the fundamental tone that allow for the localization of the instruments.
 The crossover slope used in many subs is frequently 12dB/oct. this allows for reproduction of a considerable amount of the upper harmonics that are related to the fundamental tone to be reproduced by the sub rather than the main speakers. Even a 24dB/oct. crossover slope is not a brick wall which will prevent the sub from seeing some upper harmonics.
Scotty