AudioCircle
The Marketplace => Trading Post => For Sale: Speakers & Speaker Stands => Topic started by: tvad4 on 7 Jun 2007, 06:14 pm
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Looking for a used or demo pair of Gibbon 9 or Super 8. Original boxes and packing a must. I have already contacted my "local" dealer. Any leads are appreciated.
My Castle loudspeaker adventure has gone up in flames. First pair were delivered with damaged cabinets due to insufficient packing, and replacement pair were delivered with a faulty woofer. Discontinued model, so another replacement is not possible. I've decided to move on.
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Hi tvad4,
You'll love either of those DeVores, but go for the Nines if you can aa
Good luck with your search!
Vinnie
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I have no experience with the larger DeVore floorstanders, but I just LOVE my Gibbon 3 monitors. Teamed with a Blue Circle BC-24 in the bedroom, it produces a sound that is exquisitely nuanced, refined and musical.
Based on this experience, I would seriously consider moving up the DeVore chain if I needed a larger speaker.
Good luck in your search!
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Sorry for my ignorance(I am a circle newbie), but what does bump mean?
Mike
Also Good Luck with your Gibbon search!!!!
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It's a bump upside yo' head that Grant still needs you to find him some DeVores.
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Well, since you asked . . . :D
mono sub vs. stereo bass - your call, there seems to be no consensus on this.
There's the school that says low bass separate from mains is inherently better, as mains can be positioned for vocal clarity and imaging, allowing subs to be placed where they work best.
Separate subs - I would want variable phase control, not just a 0/180 switch. I think some of the folks commenting how the "speed" of their sub can't keep up with the mains is really a phase issue between the mains and subs. I do think very quick speakers (hi-eff types especially) are more demanding here, but maybe not to the extent widely reported. Variable phase Should be able to optimize in the room better.
When I had the Def. Pros with the TacT 2.2XP, I did a LOT of playing with XO points/slopes between the main and sub arrays. Contrary to my expectations I found best results with a steeper slope set as low as possible. I thought having more shared output would enhance blending, which it did but at the expense of muddying the XO range. I would look at the FR of the DeVores. My GUESS would be that if they drop quickly below their output range (as they should being ported) they should be fairly easy to blend with a sub. If the slope is more shallow, I would guess the XO area will be tricky, as you'll have a fair amount of shared output.
One niggle I have about the 8's is that the port frequency is audible. It's less prominent than with many other ported speakers, but it's definitely there. This does contribute a nice punch with the right music but with a stand-up bass it's a minor detractor. Going with a sub wouldn't patch the midbass hole, but it should extend the power zone of the port and widen that window which should be a good thing. FWIW, my speakers are sealed and I'm more sensitive to the port issue than most folks, i.e. it might not bug you at all.
Fun times!
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Try that wonderful Leben amp on a pair of Tannoy dual-concentrics like the Glenair 10's :D
Jim
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My ACI Titan has variable phase adjustment and the Force uses the same amp.
-Raj
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Hmmm . . . I'm no sub expert. Generally, I prefer sealed boxes to ported and would be looking to something more music based than output/HT oriented. Having some kind of low-pass-filter slope adjustment and parametric eq. would be nice too, at least one band.
I haven't shopped for subs for quite a while, so I just don't know which particular ones are good, sorry.
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Might want to try The Stereo Trading Outlet in Jenkintown, PA. Steve usually has a lot of demos and trades available, and he is a Devore dealer. I really liked the Super 8's, but bought Revels there instead.
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I heard a prototype version of the Nines last summer (powered by the Signature 70s) and they had really nice bass response. Since then, John DeVore has improved upon the design and I heard that they are even better. I am highly considering getting a pair of the Nines myself... they should at least be heard if you can get an chance! :drool:
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Tell me about it. My setup is really complex and a pain to set up. But, all that fussiness does allow tailoring to my preferences and the room. Dammit! :D
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Mike, nothing's perfect. Certainly, the Castles were far from perfect, but they were inherently musical.
My gut tells me a used pair of Super Gibbon 8 for around $2k and something like Force XL sub for around $750 (although it doesn't have variable phase adjustment), will be as satisfying and a better bang-for-the-buck than a new pair of $6500 Gibbon 9.
What sub do you suggest with a variable phase adjustment that costs under $1k?
tvad4 --- what about TBI Magellan subs? I do not have any personal experience with them, but have read/heard very nice things about them; more specifically, they are very fast and purportedly easier to blend-in with mains. I'm looking into them, as well.
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This is also a "fast sounding" sub and it is sealed:
http://www.zuaudio.com/mini_method.asp
I own one and it's really good, but a pair of 'em would even better! 8)
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REL subs are fast, musical and fairly easy to blend with the main speakers. The signal can be obtained from your main amp's output, and RELs come complete with a specialty cable for doing so. Since the sub gets the exact same bass signal as the main speakers, coherence and integration are enhanced, and the need for another preamp output and another set of interconnects is eliminated.
I have owned REL subs in the past, and they are good.
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i recommend you get a pair of passive (vmps) subs, a decent outboard (marchand, or even behringer, according to josh k) active x-over, and any decent pro-audio s/s amp to drive the subs. you will smoke any powered sub combination at 1/3 the cost, imo...
a few reasons for this:
-two subs will load the room better, & give higher spl w/less distortion.
-two subs will give better soundstaging, regardless of what folks say about no stereo content at low frequencies.
-an outboard x-over like a marchand will have far better electronics than any plate amp.
-the outboard amp will be better, too.
-if using a quality x-over, the sound of your monitors will improve a lot if crossed over at 40-80hz (depending on the monitor), because the monitor's woofer is freed of having to see the lowest freqeuncies.
your mileage will not vary... :green:
doug s.
Mike, nothing's perfect. Certainly, the Castles were far from perfect, but they were inherently musical.
My gut tells me a used pair of Super Gibbon 8 for around $2k and something like Force XL sub for around $750 (although it doesn't have variable phase adjustment), will be as satisfying and a better bang-for-the-buck than a new pair of $6500 Gibbon 9.
What sub do you suggest with a variable phase adjustment that costs under $1k?
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I think we are getting a little off topic.
I think Tvad is looking for a simple or turnkey solution, not a monitor/sub/active crossover one.
George
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funny, wasn't it tvad's posting i quoted, asking about super gibbon 8 w/subs, compared to gibbon 9? :scratch: imo, if tvad wants to get performance better than the gibbon 9's, for less cash, a sub set-up as i suggest, w/the super 8's, is the way to go...
doug s.
I think we are getting off topic and that Tvad is looking for a simple or turnkey solution, not a monitor/sub/active crossover one.
George
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sorry, i won't say any more... :?
doug s.
I think we are getting a little off topic.
I think Tvad is looking for a simple or turnkey solution, not a monitor/sub/active crossover one.
George
You are correct, George.
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i'm not tweaked; i yust thought marble's post was odd, as i thought my post was on-topic; & then whilst posting such, i read your post agreeing w/marbles. ah, the wonders of web correspondence! :wink:
regards,
doug s.
No reason to get tweaked, doug s. I appreciate your input.
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i'm not tweaked; i yust thought marble's post was odd, as i thought my post was on-topic; & then whilst posting such, i read your post agreeing w/marbles. ah, the wonders of web correspondence! :wink:
regards,
doug s.
No reason to get tweaked, doug s. I appreciate your input.
Did you mean me instead of Marbles?
George
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oops. yes. now i really feel stupid! :duh:
doug s.,
i guess the upper 90's temps here have gotten to me today...
Did you mean me instead of Marbles?
George
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oops. yes. now i really feel stupid! :duh:
doug s.,
i guess the upper 90's temps here have gotten to me today...
Did you mean me instead of Marbles?
George
No worries...go have a couple of cool ones and smile... :beer:
George
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Um... excuse me which way to the bathroom?
M
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Hey what are those Super Gibbon 8s doing in the mens room.. hmm.. there are terminals coming out of the toilet and its hooked up to the gibbons... Wait let me flush... O snap... the toilet is a solid state amp and man this combo sounds sweet!
Me
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Now two bad top firing woofers in the Castles. I can get replacement woofers, but the long term reliability of the drivers, and the scarcity of replacements is an issue.
Too bad, because the Castles are very nice sounding speakers and a great match with the CS-600.
Looking at a short list of Devore Super Gibbon 8 (perhaps with a sub), Devore Gibbon 9, or Silverline Sonata III. All three have 90dB+ sensitivity and 8 ohm nominal impedance with relatively flat impedance curves. Good matches for the Leben...at least on paper.
Tvad,
Can't vouch for the Sonata III's, but I owned the Sonata II's and they were easily driven by 15 and 18 watt SET amps.
They Sonata II's weren't the last word in resolution, but they were really enjoyable and would just pull you into the music.
George
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The only Silverlines I've heard have been the 15 &17 two ways. Very nice.
tvad, have a look at these.. www.coincidentspeaker.com/partial.htm
Pay particular attention to the impedence ratings...
good luck
WEEZ
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Usually, it's the sensitivity that's exagerated a bit....
Coincident speakers are 'always' used with tubes at shows. Impedence is more important than sensitivity anyway.
(I'm not promoting Coincident...please don't misunderstand...)
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i haven't heard the coincident partial eclipses, but i own a pair of coincident victory's. fantastic speakers. rated at 14 ohms & 97db sensitivity, they are easily driven to loud spl's w/a 5wpc almarro a205a-mkll from its 16 ohm speaker taps. you can find them used every so often at ~$2500/pair or a bit less. (original retail was $5k.)
coincident still makes the victory-ll - same speaker w/re-worked x-over, their best internal wire, & coincident's new extender feet. retail is now $6k... i am considering the possibility of getting my victory's upgraded to the series-ll; coincident will do it for $800, (cuz i do not need the feet - i have them on 10" stands. otherwise it's $1k, w/the feet.) the total victory-ll, (retail $13k), is the same speaker, except 10" taller, & it has built in subwoofers. i don't need the built-in woofers, as i run a pair of vmps subs. but increasing the height really helps the soundstaging. :wink:
victory-ll: total victory-ll:
(http://www.coincidentspeaker.com/images/speakers/victory_front_SM.jpg) (http://www.coincidentspeaker.com/images/speakers/total_victory_SM.jpg)
http://www.coincidentspeaker.com/
doug s.
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my experience w/the victory's is the imagine definitely extends beyond the speaker boundaries - if the info is present on the recording. these speakers image fantastic - even better than my diapason adamantes lll's, which are known for their imaging. and, the ribbon tweet is fantastic - extremely airy, extended treble, but still sweet, w/no fatigue at all...
doug s.
Does the image extend well beyond the boundaries of the Coincidents? One comment I have read about Coincidents is that the image size is fairly contained within a smallish sweetspot. I had this with my Von Schweikerts, and I'm really interested in a different room filling presentation. The Castle Howards provide this in spades.
Is this your experience with the Coincidents?
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Over the years I have owned several Coincident models, up through the Super Eclipse, so I am very familiar with the Coincident sound. I currently own DeVore Gibbons monitors, and if its sound holds through the larger floorstanders, I would say the Coincidents provide a performance that would tend to appeal to the more cerebral listener, while the Devores offer a more emotional listen that will appeal to the heart of a music lover.
This is not to knock the Coincidents. They are excellent, excellent speakers and truly are useful to lovers of low power tubes, and those who seek detail and nueance. Simply a matter of different strokes for different folks. Taste and priorities will be determinative, and while my tastes fall into the DeVore camp, many folks will prefer the Coincidents.
PS: I second George's (Zybar) opinion about the musical prowress of the Sonatas. I always enjoyed listening to them and they never failed to captivate and pull me into the performance.
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Over the years I have owned several Coincident models, up through the Super Eclipse, so I am very familiar with the Coincident sound. I currently own DeVore Gibbons monitors, and if its sound holds through the larger floorstanders, I would say the Coincidents provide a performance that would tend to appeal to the more cerebral listener, while the Devores offer a more emotional listen that will appeal to the heart of a music lover.
This is not to knock the Coincidents. They are excellent, excellent speakers and truly are useful to lovers of low power tubes, and those who seek detail and nueance. Simply a matter of different strokes for different folks. Taste and priorities will be determinative, and while my tastes fall into the DeVore camp, many folks will prefer the Coincidents.
PS: I second George's (Zybar) opinion about the musical prowress of the Sonatas. I always enjoyed listening to them and they never failed to captivate and pull me into the performance.
i can understand this comment re: the coincidents. if you do not use them with true subwoofers, capable of flat response to 20hz... :wink:
doug s.
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Hi Tvad,
I used to own a pair of the VR4 Gen III HSE just like your speakers.
Prior to the VR4 I owned two different pairs of Coincident speaker.
I first purchased the Total Eclipse LCR (stand mounted monitor) and used them with a Martin Logan Grotto sub. This was an excellent setup and produced a very musical presentation. The problem was I didn't know what I was doing being a new guy to audio and was using Krell solid state.
I then upgraded to a floorstanding pair of Super Eclipse II. These were really nice speakers and allowed me to go to two channel without the need for a sub.
I really liked the Revelator tweeter that Mr. Blume modifies to his specifications. It is ultra revealing and is a top notch performer.
I no longer own any of the above speakers but really enjoyed them all. I am a big Coincident fan and always will be. Their speakers got me started in high end audio.
I always wanted to try the new Victory II but that was before I purchased my new speakers....Salk HT3.
Good luck on your journey.
Nick
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If I am in the woods listening to Gibbon 8s eating bananas simutaneously, and a Gibbon 9 falls from a tree in another forest. Does it make more of a bassy thud than the Gibbon 8?
:lol: :roll:
Jesus what does it mean.. idk.
Mike
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Over the years I have owned several Coincident models, up through the Super Eclipse, so I am very familiar with the Coincident sound. I currently own DeVore Gibbons monitors, and if its sound holds through the larger floorstanders, I would say the Coincidents provide a performance that would tend to appeal to the more cerebral listener, while the Devores offer a more emotional listen that will appeal to the heart of a music lover.
This is not to knock the Coincidents. They are excellent, excellent speakers and truly are useful to lovers of low power tubes, and those who seek detail and nueance. Simply a matter of different strokes for different folks. Taste and priorities will be determinative, and while my tastes fall into the DeVore camp, many folks will prefer the Coincidents.
PS: I second George's (Zybar) opinion about the musical prowress of the Sonatas. I always enjoyed listening to them and they never failed to captivate and pull me into the performance.
i can understand this comment re: the coincidents. if you do not use them with true subwoofers, capable of flat response to 20hz... :wink:
doug s.
It's unlikely I will be using any speakers with a subwoofer.
After reading through this thread, I'm guessing tvad is not interested in using a subwoofer
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After reading through this thread, I'm guessing tvad is not interested in using a subwoofer
I'd prefer not to use a sub, but I'm not totally against a single sub, connected line level and without an external crossover.
K.I.S.S. principle at work.
I hear ya-I just bought a stereo pair of subs from Gooberdude and they scared me so much sitting in the unopened boxes that I sold them unhooked up/unheard :icon_lol:
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Super 8's just went up http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1187021783 (http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1187021783)
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Super 8's just went up http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1187021783 (http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1187021783)
Those won't last long... :green:
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Shane,
Would you care to be more specific? Thanks..
WEEZ
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Having owned and thoroughly enjoyed the smaller Gibbons monitors for about a year now, I gotta say that I am quite surprised by these negative comments.
Over the years I have heard and owned many speakers. While the DeVores may not be exactly to ones taste, or may fail to push ones buttons precisely, it is hard for me to imagine anyone thinking that they are just flat out bad! :dunno:
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IMO, amplifier/speaker match is everything.
I agree 100%!
But apparently Shane is a dealer, so he has access to many amps.
I only tried my DeVore monitors with the 3 amps that I have on hand, and they are wonderful with all of them. Hard for me to imagine that he was not able to find a good match/synergy.
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I've heard Super 8's with lower-end Naim (ss), higher-end Naim, and Shindo (tubes). All were lovely.
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OK....
On my Gibbons 3 monitors, I used:
* Dodd Audio 120 monos
* Blue Circle BC-24
* Sansui 771 receiver (my first stereo, circa 1975, and still going strong!)
All three work very well, and produce a musical sound that is liquid and nuanced, but most importantly, has good "emotional pull".
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Wow, Dodd 120s on Gibbon 3? Talk about putting a V8 into a Miata! :)
Yeah..... :lol:
Dodds are in the main system, Gibbons are in the bedroom system.
I never intended to keep them together, but curiousity, and too much time on my hands, got the better of me!
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I owned Gibbon 8's for two years and my experience was closer to that of the 6 Moon reviewers than theater docs. I do recall that they seemed slightly tipped in the presence region, but never harsh or thin. The fit and finish were certainly very good, maybe not quite to the level of dynaudio's I've owned (they are of a different visual design esthetic than dyns) but as good or better than most I've owned - note that I'm not commenting on the visual design which I happen to also like, but the execution and craftwork. Reading Stereophile's reviews, I found it interesting that the reviewer loved the Silverbacks - currently rated Class A, though they did not measure that well. As I recall, John Devore noted that the speakers are built to sound good in-room, where there is significant interaction with walls. In my rooms the 8's sounded very good.
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I own the DeVore super 8s and between the amps I own and what I've reviewed, they've had a bunch of partners. The short list includes the Fi 421A, Fi 45, Shindo F2a, Rogue Audio Cronus, First Watt Aleph J, Magnum Dynalab MD-208 and the Red Wine Sig 30.
While I have my personal preferences, there wasn’t a clinker combo in the bunch. Room, associated gear, music preferences and listening preferences are all equally important. So I certainly agree that you need to hear things for yourself. Especially since there aren’t any MDs of hi-fi.
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Yes let peoples opinions stand as long as they are from direct experience and not heresay.
Mike
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huh :?
leave the computer to eat supper with my wife and posts go away....
oh well,
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The opinions expressed here on AudioCircle and just that - opinions - often by seasoned audiophools :)
I see nothing in this topic to indicate anything more than expression, and thoughtful opinion. Our members views are not for sale at any price, they cannot be censured for merely expressing their opinions. Indeed, most of the posts have been very positive about DeVore - should we delete this as well as someone expressed a positive opinion of them?
This matter is wholly in the hands of tvad to do nothing or rectify somehow....we as Moderators will not remove thoughtful opinions of makers unless we feel it is motivated by too much subjectivity, and little objectivity. As all the facts here are not known, all the opinions here in this post stand for now.
Let me make clear to any manufacturer, or member, that the mere mention of defamation and or lawsuit will have you permanently and immediately banned from AudioCircle for mention of such threats either towards other members or Moderators/Facilitators here. We will not be bullied by strong arm tactics of any manufacturer and will remain a little audio outpost on the internet where folks are free to express their opinions, good and bad, without reprisal from offended manufacturers.
We moderate these boards so that the opinions expressed are generally quite civil and don't unduly ruffle feathers - and we maintain this right for any member and or manufacturer or dealer that is here.
tvad - you may do as you wish in communication with others, or on your own. But, you (and others) have our voice of support to express yourself in the same thoughtful, reasonable manner you always have at AudioCircle.
Thank you for your time everyone - please enjoy the show :peek:
John / Global Moderator
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as long as they are from direct experience and not heresay
I'd add: as long as they aren't motivated or biased by business interests.
While this may be a contentious notion, one easy rule of thumb is if a guy is trying to discourage you from buying something he doesn't sell (even though you've already expressed interest in buying it) while trying to sell you something he does, add one grain of salt.
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No larger a grain of salt than one added when reading a review authored by a personal friend of the manufacturer.
Hi Tvad,
In general, I'd say disclosure is the key in your example.
Since our choices in audio come down to personal preferences, bias is unavoidable. Again disclosure is key. Or in keeping with our theme, you'd need a very large salt shaker to ward off all the bias attached to opinions.
Cheers,
Michael
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I believe if you re-read my post where I talk about my experiences with these speakers, I was answering your question:
It'd be great if everyone would specify which amps they used with the Gibbons...whether they proved a good match or awful match.
Since I own the Super 8s and have tried a lot of different amps with them, I thought this experience would be of interest. The fact that I know John DeVore doesn't seem relevant at all in this context.
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Say Tvad,
Did you edit your last post? It's either that or I mis-read it the first time. In any event:
The only reason I'm aware of it is from reading one of your Gibbon reviews (or Devore tour articles...I don't recall which)
I've never reviewed a DeVore speaker. You are referring to a Factory Tour I wrote (thanks for reading btw).
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To be sure, I know of Michael's friendship with John DeVore which is precisely the reason why he doesn't write formal reviews on this brand for us. You'll notice the Nines are bound for Cyprus. However, for the same reason, a factory tour by Michael seemed very much on the ball as such a relationship opens doors and gets access to information and opportunities someone else might not get - and that serves the reader. It was actually my idea that, if John deVore was amenable, Michael should attempt to compare all DeVore models side by side to give readers an idea what more money up the line buys. This wouldn't be something any reviewer anywhere could possibly do. Needless to say, Michael's RoadTour Format isn't a formal review environ by a long shot (nor shold it be) so this would be a very informal thing, of hearing various models in an unfamiliar environment and coming to certain conclusions with regards to value, bass, SPLs, room size and such.
Just as an aside.
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Exactly. That's when I saw the light. "Hey, Mike's gonna be at the one place where they gotta have each and every model DeVore makes all lined up like organ pipes. Geez." That's when I suggested he do an informal "working your way up the line, here's what you get, here's what surprised me, here's the sweet spot, here diminishing returns kick in" and so on. How it'll come off we'll see but Mike's onboard with the concept and John said he'd make himself available to spend a day or two and let Mike hear various juxtapositions of his models in the NYC metro area - at dealers, perhaps certain key customers, his digs and the factory.
Unless it's on my desk, I won't know what it'll be but I love Michael's approach to things so I'm sure it'll come off great and will have some useful info in it for all of us -:)
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Sorry I can not say that I have heard the Devore line as it was on my shortlist of speakers to hear. There is actually a dealer in the suburb I grew up in but I never did make it over for a appointment...
Good luck with the search and if these work out please share as it seems that many circle members are very supported of and in helping out on your journey :thumb:
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Srajan / Michael Lavorgna (other audio-related journalists),
We now require dealers to have, at the very least, a sign-off that includes their website. I think it would be wise, and in fact we may soon demand, that publishers, writers and other 'journalists' involved in reporting high fidelity, have a short sign-off similarly.
While we realize that you indeed are audio-phools first and foremost and this is why you do what you do, we also realize you now have persuasions and subjective reasoning (much like a politician) regarding audio interests.
So, please, in the interest of fairness and transparency to all, indicate what you do audio-related and a website link in three lines or less in your sign-off here at AudioCircle.
Srajan - I'm Greek of Cypriot descent and know about where you are. So far from civilization on the Western side of the island....but, peaceful. I can't find Keo wines here in San Francisco :wink:
Thank you,
John / Global Moderator
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How it'll come off we'll see but Mike's onboard with the concept and John said he'd make himself available to spend a day or two and let Mike hear various juxtapositions of his models in the NYC metro area - at dealers, perhaps certain key customers, his digs and the factory.
All,
I am picking up a new pair of the DeVore Gibbons Nines next week! :hyper:
I'd be happy to have Michael over my place to listen to them with some Red Wine amps aa
Michael can even take the train from NYC (Grand Central Station) up to New Haven, CT and I'll pick him up (I am only about 25 minutes North of New Haven).
Or I can bring a Sig 30 and iMod combo to NYC when I pick up the Nines and we can play them on the streets of Brooklyn... off-the-grid, remember? Even better would be the Brooklyn bridge... less reflections:
http://www.6moons.com/showcase/devore/devore.html
:green:
-Vinnie
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Is this Universal Law now, John?
What do you mean by "we're like politicians"?
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Jeez this forum is heating up, or having a meltdown... hehe.
Maybe we should put a clause in that audio sellers/reviewers must arm wrestle or initiate a king of the hill battle for world audio domination.
I think it would be fun to wear tags like Hi my name is...
All joking aside I know we are trying to have a forum that is objective to a point.. though there is no such thing as a utopia of the mind.
Who knows if that made any sense? Anyways tra lala... now skipping naked through midtown traffic...
Mike
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How it'll come off we'll see but Mike's onboard with the concept and John said he'd make himself available to spend a day or two and let Mike hear various juxtapositions of his models in the NYC metro area - at dealers, perhaps certain key customers, his digs and the factory.
All,
I am picking up a new pair of the DeVore Gibbons Nines next week! :hyper:
I'd be happy to have Michael over my place to listen to them with some Red Wine amps aa
Michael can even take the train from NYC (Grand Central Station) up to New Haven, CT and I'll pick him up (I am only about 25 minutes North of New Haven).
Or I can bring a Sig 30 and iMod combo to NYC when I pick up the Nines and we can play them on the streets of Brooklyn... off-the-grid, remember? Even better would be the Brooklyn bridge... less reflections:
http://www.6moons.com/showcase/devore/devore.html
:green:
-Vinnie
Can I come over for a listen Vinnie? :drool:
This way I can hear three products (70's, iMod, and Devore speakers) I have been interested in at once!!
George
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Is this Universal Law now, John?
What do you mean by "we're like politicians"?
Nope, Mike - hasn't been broached with JohnR yet - but I think it wise to do and I will shortly.
If you've received any compensation whatsoever audio-related, I would think you would prefer to have a sign-off that includes this included for fairness. It will curtail a lot of explaining later for you.
If I sold or reported on some facet of audio other than being a fully amateur participant, I would do so - or I couldn't live with myself, frankly. Interject - the three Global Moderators are fully volunteers
Okay now, we're not talking POLITICS - only how politicians relate to audio journalists, dealers and manufacturers. But, as Politicians cannot speak fully their minds on issue as there are subtexts to think of (ie, of the next election for them and their associates at risk) so too is there a gentle subjectivity to any point of view expressed by journalists, dealers or manufacturers.
We now require disclosure for dealers and manufacturers - would think it wise to require journalists to do so, as well. I actually think you should embrace that concept out of fairness to your fellow audio enthusiasts.
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I haven't received any compensation of any kind.
Are the perceived, political subtexts you refer to any different than what happens right here under our AC noses? I think the unspoken rule is to avoid negative discussions of any audio product here, Especially featured manufacturers. There are popular products here that I do not care for. Others do. I don't voice these opinions. For that matter, how many negative posts about products do we see here? This thread is an unfortunately timely example.
Many stones have been thrown from the populous toward reviewers openly wondering why negative reviews aren't written. Sure, more positive examples exist but this is not universal.
The word "political" means literally "of the people". The dictionary does not cast the connotative pall normally associated with the term. But, the same ebbs and flows you attribute exclusively to "compensated" writers exist right here are are omnipresent. It would be naive to think otherwise.
For the record, 6moons' ironclad policy is that NO negotiation for ANY price breaks on ANY reviewed gear may take place until the review is completed. I have not been in position to experience this first-hand but it was one of the few and critically important rules handed down upon my inclusion. The intent is clear - to prevent the uncertainty of appearance intrinsic to this gig.
Furthermore, who here doesn't know these characters you're targeting now? Are they hiding anything?
I don't necessarily disagree with identifying oneself and establishing full disclosure, but I'm not seeing the gaping chasm of (implied) morality between "us" and "them", whereever you draw those lines.
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Mike, seriously, you have a few things incorrect :|
There is no unspoken or spoken rule to avoid negative discussions of any audio product here, especially featured manufacturers. None, whatsoever. Keep in mind the manufacturers that have circles here were, by and large, voted on by membership so they have already demonstrated some sort of worthiness in customer service, value and or of the highest fidelity. So, likely negatives are few and far between...you might say the market has already had their say on their worth :thumb:
If you haven't received any compensation for your writing, then it is fully up to you to disclose your writing or not. Without financial renumeration, you are and can mostly be objective. So, as you seem to see things only in stark black and white context...you are in fact a 'tweener'
Mike, I find your writing to be lucid and a great read and do not have any issues with you...but it seems you do with me and have expressed this on numerous occasions here at AC in the most recent 4 months or so. Other than ticking you off by fully expressing my opinions on the state of compact disc playback, I truly know not why. I do think you have an issue with authority, and perceive me as such :P
I will re-state for the record that I am a volunteer here and do some much more than many folks see as a public service to audiophiles. I have a business completely unrelated to audio matters to tend to...this is wholly volunteer / without compensation of any kind. Nor, do I expect any in the future, near or far. If you think things are unfair - there are several circles at AC that could use a co-moderator. Please volunteer yourself and 'change the culture' as an insider yourself.
fyi - I didn't know Michael Lavorgna was an audio reviewer until today. I assume there are many others that did not know, either.
The term Insider (that you have used before) is one that you seem fixated on....and is largely nonexistent for all except JohnR...who has the keys to this place.
I'd like you to stop kicking me in the shins as you have of late (it hurts, I'm human I assure you) ...and would like to repair the good relationship we once had together. I'm going to PM you my telephone number as PM's can get tedious and invite you to call me and talk it over. I think you'll find me far less of an ogre than my AC persona may be indicating to you.
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Mike, seriously, you have a few things incorrect :|
If I had a nickle for every time I heard that . . . [or]
You'd probably get along great with my wife . . . [or]
Impossible, let me check my figures again . . .
:D
I work in the regulation business as a proponent, so I probably do have a bit of a chip on my shoulder for rules. Early in my hand-wringing career a wise engineer told me "it's not you, they (governmental reviewers) are not commenting on you, it's just a plan". This attitude has allowed me freedom to argue points without being personal and when I see things I disagree with I do just that. There's no animosity toward you John, nor anyone else (unless they're just a twit).
So, from my standpoint I can argue your points and still think you're a swell guy (I do). :thumb: If we're trying to foster an atmosphere of freedom, I should be able to express myself as should you. If we agree to disagree, that's OK.
Maybe I expressed myself poorly regarding the "policy" of negative words. I did not mean there is an AC rule, rather that it's considered bad form AND any negativity creates a firestorm of controversy with the commenter being in the center. Not wanting to bring this upon oneself is a powerful motivator.
I really don't have it in for you, John. I thought we buried the digital hatchet deep in the cyber dirt and I frankly haven't thought about that chapter in some time.
So, bygones be, do what you wish regarding affiliation-disclosure and we'll catch ya on the flip side.
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I think I've been intoxicated by your words again, Mike :)
Let love rein and peace be on earth.... :wink: :thumb:
Ciao, John
(tvad4, glad two things came of this sordid DeVore post. It seemed innocent enough at the start, eh?)
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Peace, love, and happy Friday!! :green:
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None of my writers is compensated. They all do this as enthusiast hobbyists. Giving certain statements further up, I thought this relevant to add.
Needless to say, if this forum adopts the rule that writers/publishers have a signature identifying them as such, including a weblink (which other forums might view as self promotion), we'd be happy to comply, of course. In which case, I assume you'll have an auto feature during log-in that captures that information the way you want it displayed.
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To be sure, I know of Michael's friendship with John DeVore which is precisely the reason why he doesn't write formal reviews on this brand for us. You'll notice the Nines are bound for Cyprus. However, for the same reason, a factory tour by Michael seemed very much on the ball as such a relationship opens doors and gets access to information and opportunities someone else might not get - and that serves the reader. It was actually my idea that, if John deVore was amenable, Michael should attempt to compare all DeVore models side by side to give readers an idea what more money up the line buys. This wouldn't be something any reviewer anywhere could possibly do. Needless to say, Michael's RoadTour Format isn't a formal review environ by a long shot (nor shold it be) so this would be a very informal thing, of hearing various models in an unfamiliar environment and coming to certain conclusions with regards to value, bass, SPLs, room size and such.
Just as an aside.
Thats a good idea...an all model comparison !! :thumb:
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Furthermore, who here doesn't know these characters you're targeting now? Are they hiding anything?
Right on Mike-nicely put :D C'Mon TCG-two channel internet audio is a very small world where most of the characters in question are pretty well known and whose motives I suspect are only to add enjoyment to this wacked hobby of ours. And if a rave review ever steers you wrong, there's always Audiogon...
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Needless to say, if this forum adopts the rule that writers/publishers have a signature identifying them as such, including a weblink (which other forums might view as self promotion), we'd be happy to comply, of course.
OK, well, since the topic comes up, we have the rule, and have had for a while now:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=41871.0
In the case of someone who is not paid, I guess you could say the rule doesn't apply, but even so I think it's better if affiliations are disclosed up front. It will only take a minute of your time to do.
Thanks :)
JohnR
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I'm looking at your registry window and I don't see a provision for a permanent signature coming up. You're suggesting to type it in with each post? Or is there an electronic way to register a signature and weblink permanently, to automatically appear in the 'reply' window for posts?
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Hi, click on Profile in the menubar, or click here (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=profile). In the menu at the left, click on "Forum Profile Information." Towards the bottom is a text box called Signature -- enter the information and click "Change Profile."
Thanks :) (I'll add this info to the guideline...)
JohnR
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You're prince. Instructions for dummies. Now I'm all set. :duh:
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I should be all set as well.
Thats a good idea...an all model comparison !!
We're in the process of nailing down the details. It's looking like I'll get to hear gibbon 3s, 7.1s, super 8s, The Nines and Silverbacks (possibly a few different pair). It also means I'll be hearing as many different systems in as many different places (all in NYC which makes this possible). A whirlwind for sure but I have high hopes of making some sense of it all.
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Back to topic...
Tvad -- did you pick-up that pair of Super 8 on Audiogon? They were gone in a flash.
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It'd be great if everyone would specify which amps they used with the Gibbons...whether they proved a good match or awful match.
Tanx.
Not sure if it helps. I use 40W Primaluna Prologue Two with Devore Gibbon 8s and it is *easily* more than enough amp needed. My previous Tyler Acoustics Taylo Ref Monitors were harder to drive (both worked well). I like the Devores better.
System:
Dynavector P75, Dynavector XX-2, Lenco L75, Rega P5, Primaluna Prologue Two, Powervar units, Grover Huffman cables, Black Sand Violet powercords
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Grant,
A little late to the party, but I powered my Gibbon 8's with a Manley Stingray with ease.
Hard to put an exact finger on Devore's signature sound, guess if I had to pick one word it would be musical. Said in a "good" way. Maybe not offering the best of this or that(insert audio verbiage), but they did most things very well.
Regards
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Thanks very much for listing your system. That is very helpful.
What specifically do you like better about the Gibbon 8 than the Taylo Ref monitors?
Things sound more coherent (hard to describe) and soundstaging is better. They absolutely disappear. They also provided lower bass (true to spec) and what I believe to be bass that is more accurate along the frequency range. Imo, the Tylers had much more midbass which gave the illusion of them having more bass...a much warmer sound. Perhaps some of this had to do with the room.
Tonally speaking, I get the impression that many solid state amps would not sound good with Devores whereas one could get away with using solid state with the Tylers.
To make things even more confusing, I sold my Tylers locally to a guy who was(is?) selling his Devore 8s. He had them paired with a Leben. He likes the Tylers better and says they have more bass. Go figure! We listened to both speakers on his Leben when I brought over the Tylers to his house. I can't remember which Leben he had, however. I didn't look in side but he said it used El84 tubes. He had vinyl but it looked like he listened mostly to cds and listen only to vinyl at home (too many records to choose from and digital is for the car).
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Thanks very much for listing your system. That is very helpful.
What specifically do you like better about the Gibbon 8 than the Taylo Ref monitors?
Things sound more coherent (hard to describe) and soundstaging is better. They absolutely disappear. They also provided lower bass (true to spec) and what I believe to be bass that is more accurate along the frequency range. Imo, the Tylers had much more midbass which gave the illusion of them having more bass...a much warmer sound. Perhaps some of this had to do with the room.
Tonally speaking, I get the impression that many solid state amps would not sound good with Devores whereas one could get away with using solid state with the Tylers.
To make things even more confusing, I sold my Tylers locally to a guy who was(is?) selling his Devore 8s. He had them paired with a Leben. He likes the Tylers better and says they have more bass. Go figure! We listened to both speakers on his Leben when I brought over the Tylers to his house. I can't remember which Leben he had, however. I didn't look in side but he said it used El84 tubes. He had vinyl but it looked like he listened mostly to cds and listen only to vinyl at home (too many records to choose from and digital is for the car).
Hmm...that's quite interesting. Your description makes me think the Tylers would be more to my liking. Typically, people who say a certain speaker might sound best with a tube amp say this because they assume a tube amp will add warmth to an otherwise cold sounding speaker. My impression of my CS-600 is that it is more neutral than it is warm, and I generally engage the CS-600's 3dB bass boost to add some midbass.
Your friend's Leben sounds like it's the 15wpc CS-300, which uses EL84 output tubes, and different input tubes than the CS-600.
I dunno about that....
Tubes are my preference, yet I listen to my DeVores with a hybrid amp....tubed input, SS output. My DeVores don't strike me as speakers that are tipped up, thin, bleached, or in any way needing of tubes for sweetening. Quite the opposite....to my ears, they are voiced to the warm, full and "musical" side of neutral. Which is why I like them, because my tastes and priorities lie in that direction. I suppose it is possible that DeVore floorstanders have a different signature, but I'd be surprised.
As far as the Tylers, I've never heard them, but I've read many comments about them sounding very transparent and detailed, but perhaps at the cost of musicality, and perhaps just a bit too forward, analytical and incisive. This sounds to me that perhaps they are the ones that need tubes to get sympatico sound?
:dunno:
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I don't think the Super 8's are in need of tube warmth at all - I've heard them twice with all SS setups and they sounded excellent. Once was playing a Coltrane record on a Really Expensive Naim rack - the kind that a reasonably priced speaker wouldn't normally be played with, but ooohh la la, yumminess.
However, My Opinion is that the person that gravitates toward the DeVores will be someone that prizes what tubes have to offer. They are cut of the same cloth.
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imo, all speakers will sound best w/a tube amp. which amp depends on which speaker. aa
ymmv,
doug s.
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....
However, My Opinion is that the person that gravitates toward the DeVores will be someone that prizes what tubes have to offer. They are cut of the same cloth.
Couldn't have said it better myself!
I tried to, but couldn't!
:thumb:
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I don't think the Super 8's are in need of tube warmth at all - I've heard them twice with all SS setups and they sounded excellent. Once was playing a Coltrane record on a Really Expensive Naim rack - the kind that a reasonably priced speaker wouldn't normally be played with, but ooohh la la, yumminess.
However, My Opinion is that the person that gravitates toward the DeVores will be someone that prizes what tubes have to offer. They are cut of the same cloth.
well...forget I said tubes/solid state...what I really mean is if I had to pair a dry sounding amp with speakers, I'd do it with the Tylers over the Devores.
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Thanks very much for listing your system. That is very helpful.
What specifically do you like better about the Gibbon 8 than the Taylo Ref monitors?
Things sound more coherent (hard to describe) and soundstaging is better. They absolutely disappear. They also provided lower bass (true to spec) and what I believe to be bass that is more accurate along the frequency range. Imo, the Tylers had much more midbass which gave the illusion of them having more bass...a much warmer sound. Perhaps some of this had to do with the room.
Tonally speaking, I get the impression that many solid state amps would not sound good with Devores whereas one could get away with using solid state with the Tylers.
To make things even more confusing, I sold my Tylers locally to a guy who was(is?) selling his Devore 8s. He had them paired with a Leben. He likes the Tylers better and says they have more bass. Go figure! We listened to both speakers on his Leben when I brought over the Tylers to his house. I can't remember which Leben he had, however. I didn't look in side but he said it used El84 tubes. He had vinyl but it looked like he listened mostly to cds and listen only to vinyl at home (too many records to choose from and digital is for the car).
Hmm...that's quite interesting. Your description makes me think the Tylers would be more to my liking. Typically, people who say a certain speaker might sound best with a tube amp say this because they assume a tube amp will add warmth to an otherwise cold sounding speaker. My impression of my CS-600 is that it is more neutral than it is warm, and I generally engage the CS-600's 3dB bass boost to add some midbass.
Your friend's Leben sounds like it's the 15wpc CS-300, which uses EL84 output tubes, and different input tubes than the CS-600.
I dunno about that....
Tubes are my preference, yet I listen to my DeVores with a hybrid amp....tubed input, SS output. My DeVores don't strike me as speakers that are tipped up, thin, bleached, or in any way needing of tubes for sweetening. Quite the opposite....to my ears, they are voiced to the warm, full and "musical" side of neutral. Which is why I like them, because my tastes and priorities lie in that direction. I suppose it is possible that DeVore floorstanders have a different signature, but I'd be surprised.
As far as the Tylers, I've never heard them, but I've read many comments about them sounding very transparent and detailed, but perhaps at the cost of musicality, and perhaps just a bit too forward, analytical and incisive. This sounds to me that perhaps they are the ones that need tubes to get sympatico sound?
:dunno:
Hi Guys,
I will chime in Thanks very much for listing your system. That is very helpful.
What specifically do you like better about the Gibbon 8 than the Taylo Ref monitors?
Things sound more coherent (hard to describe) and soundstaging is better. They absolutely disappear. They also provided lower bass (true to spec) and what I believe to be bass that is more accurate along the frequency range. Imo, the Tylers had much more midbass which gave the illusion of them having more bass...a much warmer sound. Perhaps some of this had to do with the room.
Tonally speaking, I get the impression that many solid state amps would not sound good with Devores whereas one could get away with using solid state with the Tylers.
To make things even more confusing, I sold my Tylers locally to a guy who was(is?) selling his Devore 8s. He had them paired with a Leben. He likes the Tylers better and says they have more bass. Go figure! We listened to both speakers on his Leben when I brought over the Tylers to his house. I can't remember which Leben he had, however. I didn't look in side but he said it used El84 tubes. He had vinyl but it looked like he listened mostly to cds and listen only to vinyl at home (too many records to choose from and digital is for the car).
Hmm...that's quite interesting. Your description makes me think the Tylers would be more to my liking. Typically, people who say a certain speaker might sound best with a tube amp say this because they assume a tube amp will add warmth to an otherwise cold sounding speaker. My impression of my CS-600 is that it is more neutral than it is warm, and I generally engage the CS-600's 3dB bass boost to add some midbass.
Your friend's Leben sounds like it's the 15wpc CS-300, which uses EL84 output tubes, and different input tubes than the CS-600.
Hello all,
I have heard both and I guess you can take my opinion for what it's worth. I auditioned the gibbon super 8's in In Living Stereo with Shindo gear and I used to own the Tyler Acoustics Taylo Monitor. I thought that this monitor would only go down to about 75ish hertz and is meant to be mated with a subwoofer. While it did not have the bass that was felt and heard, it still had a tuneful midbass that somewhat provided an "elastic" realism to drum instruments. The super 8's definitely had more sparkle on the top end and is more neutral sounding. The super 8's had better bass, probably because it's a floorstander and is meant to be used with or without a sub (this only applies of course for the lowest octaves). The Taylo's on the other hand, are definitely more forgiving. I consider this as one of its strengths because even though it was warm sounding, it was still able to convey the right amount of resolution, without being analytical. I sold it because I was looking for ultimate neutrality and accuracy in speakers, and have gone through several pairs after then :icon_lol:.
When I had the Taylos, I was using the following gear:
Sony SCD-XA777es cd/sacd player
Van Alstine tslr-7 preamp
Odyssey Stratos Extreme Amplifier/Norh Multiamp
ACI Titan Sub (Original Version)
ACI Jaguar 2000 (to compare, and still own)
Cheers,
ian
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Hello all,
I have heard both and I guess you can take my opinion for what it's worth. I auditioned the gibbon super 8's in In Living Stereo with Shindo gear and I used to own the Tyler Acoustics Taylo Monitor. I thought that this monitor would only go down to about 75ish hertz and is meant to be mated with a subwoofer. While it did not have the bass that was felt and heard, it still had a tuneful midbass that somewhat provided an "elastic" realism to drum instruments. The super 8's definitely had more sparkle on the top end and is more neutral sounding. The super 8's had better bass, probably because it's a floorstander and is meant to be used with or without a sub (this only applies of course for the lowest octaves). The Taylo's on the other hand, are definitely more forgiving. I consider this as one of its strengths because even though it was warm sounding, it was still able to convey the right amount of resolution, without being analytical. I sold it because I was looking for ultimate neutrality and accuracy in speakers, and have gone through several pairs after then :icon_lol:.
When I had the Taylos, I was using the following gear:
Sony SCD-XA777es cd/sacd player
Van Alstine tslr-7 preamp
Odyssey Stratos Extreme Amplifier/Norh Multiamp
ACI Titan Sub (Original Version)
ACI Jaguar 2000 (to compare, and still own)
Cheers,
ian
Hi Ian...
Thanks for that worthwhile and lucid comparo.
I must say, I am a bit surprised.
How you describe the Taylos, is exactly what I hear in my Gibbons monitors. I am quite sensitive to any sort of thin, etched, dry, bleached or excessively tipped or analytical sound. While I do find them them sufficiently transparent and revealing, I sure don't hear any of that.
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I believe the associated gear is of utmost importance in the comments made above, and I believe I can understand how each speaker would display the given characteristics in each of the listener's systems.
Thanks for listing the equipment used. It's very, very helpful.
Ian, you heard the Gibbons with Shindo gear. This is considered to be an ideal pairing. I take it the Gibbons still didn't do it for you. What did you end up buying, and are you driving them with the Odyssey amps?
When listening to speakers, I am fully aware that you are also listening to the amps signature.....and to all gear in the chain, for that matter. Earlier I listed the 3 amps I tried. I know their signatures well from having used them over time on several speakers. I took this into account when commenting on my DeVore monitors. That is, I tried to describe and isolate the "sound" of the speaker.
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Frankly, I think I've caught lightning in a bottle, and I don't relish buying something different, spending more, and finding it's not as good...
Congrats!
Most folks on here probably know that tons of $$$ does not guarantee good sound, and that better sound can often be had for less. A local buddy of mine just downsized his very expensive system. He feels it is the most musically satisfying and emotionally rivetting system he's ever had (I happen to agree), AND he's put several dozen thousand dollars into his pocket in the process!!
Win-Win!! :thumb:
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Congrats!
Most folks on here probably know that tons of $$$ does not guarantee good sound, and that better sound can often be had for less. A local buddy of mine just downsized his very expensive system. He feels it is the most musically satisfying and emotionally rivetting system he's ever had (I happen to agree), AND he's put several dozen thousand dollars into his pocket in the process!!
Win-Win!! :thumb:
Thanks. We'll see how it unfolds.
What comprises your friend's new system?
New system is:
All top-of-the-line EAR gear: digital, preamp, amp.
Marten Designs Bird loudspeakers (Heritage Series)
* Analog setup remains constant: all Brinkmann table / arm / cartridge
* cabling remains constant and unfamiliar
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Yikes. Your friend downsized to $29,700 Marten Bird loudspeakers?!
That's a whole 'nother league of downsizing. I'm in single A ball by comparison... ;)
:lol:
Yep....like I said.....he downsized from a very expensive system.
Way outta my league too!
PS: I see you like to ride. I have a Litespeed Arenberg.
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My two cents------ I have owned Devore Gibbon 8's in the past and used them with tubes at one point. I would call them fast,punchy, and detailed/revealing. Wonderful imagers too. They did strike me however, depending on equipment matching, as somewhat forward and tipped up a bit/thin tonally.
This is the reason I ultimately sold them. Adjusting the angle of the spikes/spacers on the bottom seemed certainly to mitigate this somewhat, but I never could get them to sing.
As to "so many people love them they cant be bad"-- well let me go on the on-line record as stating I have heard Thiel (sp?) speakers roughly one million times (give or take) in my 25 years as an audiophile and I have never heard them make a musical sound. Not once. Okay-- maybe one or two times, but it was a cymbal and those drivers ARE metal. Seriously-- I dont like Thiels. To my ear they are analytical and harsh and detailed as all get out to a fault.
This was NOT the case with the Gibbons, but I could get them going in that direction depending on the front end, wiring (Nordost was terrible with them!)
Lots of guys use Thiel as their REFERENCE speakers. So the everybody loves Raymond (or Devores) certainly isnt a good reason to buy them unheard. Those reviewers are entitled to their opinions-- I just dont listen to any that use Thiel as a reference-- we clearly dont hear the same.
As for sixmoons, wonderful mag and wonderful reviews, but some of the writers (including the main bottle washer) -- IMHO of course--- seem to love shall we say-- gear that's a bit on the sunnier side of the street tonally. The consonance 2.2 Ref Linear CD player is one such animal.
I know of one dealer who posts on message boards such as this occasionally that has heard the Devore line in-house and has chosen not to carry it owing to a feeling that it was a bit too detailed and-- how did he put it-- "lacked depth tonally." (translation-- wasnt as full, rounded and fleshed out as he thought a good speaker ought to be). I believe he likened them to Thiels in his subsequent email to me.
By this post I simply mean to offer another opinion-- not further stir up any stew. I guess, in a sentence-- if at all possible-- hear before you buy. Even if it's in a tiny room like In Living Stereo has-- it'll still be usefull-- especially before you buy NEW-- that's for sure!!!!! You could lose a LOT of money gambling on other peoples' ears.
I did with the Gibbons to the tune of about 600 to 800 bucks (or was it more?). Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to read a review of that new Thiel with the corrugated aluminum cones and then comb audiogon for a pair. I hear they're GREAT... :D
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My two cents------ I have owned Devore Gibbon 8's in the past and used them with tubes at one point. I would call them fast,punchy, and detailed/revealing. Wonderful imagers too. They did strike me however, depending on equipment matching, as somewhat forward and tipped up a bit/thin tonally.
This is the reason I ultimately sold them. Adjusting the angle of the spikes/spacers on the bottom seemed certainly to mitigate this somewhat, but I never could get them to sing.
As to "so many people love them they cant be bad"-- well let me go on the on-line record as stating I have heard Thiel (sp?) speakers roughly one million times (give or take) in my 25 years as an audiophile and I have never heard them make a musical sound. Not once. Okay-- maybe one or two times, but it was a cymbal and those drivers ARE metal. Seriously-- I dont like Thiels. To my ear they are analytical and harsh and detailed as all get out to a fault.
This was NOT the case with the Gibbons, but I could get them going in that direction depending on the front end, wiring (Nordost was terrible with them!)
Lots of guys use Thiel as their REFERENCE speakers. So the everybody loves Raymond (or Devores) certainly isnt a good reason to buy them unheard. Those reviewers are entitled to their opinions-- I just dont listen to any that use Thiel as a reference-- we clearly dont hear the same.
As for sixmoons, wonderful mag and wonderful reviews, but some of the writers (including the main bottle washer) -- IMHO of course--- seem to love shall we say-- gear that's a bit on the sunnier side of the street tonally. The consonance 2.2 Ref Linear CD player is one such animal.
I know of one dealer who posts on message boards such as this occasionally that has heard the Devore line in-house and has chosen not to carry it owing to a feeling that it was a bit too detailed and-- how did he put it-- "lacked depth tonally." (translation-- wasnt as full, rounded and fleshed out as he thought a good speaker ought to be). I believe he likened them to Thiels in his subsequent email to me.
By this post I simply mean to offer another opinion-- not further stir up any stew. I guess, in a sentence-- if at all possible-- hear before you buy. Even if it's in a tiny room like In Living Stereo has-- it'll still be usefull-- especially before you buy NEW-- that's for sure!!!!! You could lose a LOT of money gambling on other peoples' ears.
I did with the Gibbons to the tune of about 600 to 800 bucks (or was it more?). Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to read a review of that new Thiel with the corrugated aluminum cones and then comb audiogon for a pair. I hear they're GREAT... :D
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Yikes. Your friend downsized to $29,700 Marten Bird loudspeakers?!
That's a whole 'nother league of downsizing. I'm in single A ball by comparison... ;)
But you know what?
He still comes over and listens to my system, and enjoys it very much.
Compared to his, mine is certainly not embarrassed, and I don't feel it is significantly lacking.
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My two cents------ I have owned Devore Gibbon 8's in the past and used them with tubes at one point. I would call them fast,punchy, and detailed/revealing. Wonderful imagers too. They did strike me however, depending on equipment matching, as somewhat forward and tipped up a bit/thin tonally.
This is the reason I ultimately sold them. Adjusting the angle of the spikes/spacers on the bottom seemed certainly to mitigate this somewhat, but I never could get them to sing.
As to "so many people love them they cant be bad"-- well let me go on the on-line record as stating I have heard Thiel (sp?) speakers roughly one million times (give or take) in my 25 years as an audiophile and I have never heard them make a musical sound. Not once. Okay-- maybe one or two times, but it was a cymbal and those drivers ARE metal. Seriously-- I dont like Thiels. To my ear they are analytical and harsh and detailed as all get out to a fault.
This was NOT the case with the Gibbons, but I could get them going in that direction depending on the front end, wiring (Nordost was terrible with them!)
Lots of guys use Thiel as their REFERENCE speakers. So the everybody loves Raymond (or Devores) certainly isnt a good reason to buy them unheard. Those reviewers are entitled to their opinions-- I just dont listen to any that use Thiel as a reference-- we clearly dont hear the same.
As for sixmoons, wonderful mag and wonderful reviews, but some of the writers (including the main bottle washer) -- IMHO of course--- seem to love shall we say-- gear that's a bit on the sunnier side of the street tonally. The consonance 2.2 Ref Linear CD player is one such animal.
I know of one dealer who posts on message boards such as this occasionally that has heard the Devore line in-house and has chosen not to carry it owing to a feeling that it was a bit too detailed and-- how did he put it-- "lacked depth tonally." (translation-- wasnt as full, rounded and fleshed out as he thought a good speaker ought to be). I believe he likened them to Thiels in his subsequent email to me.
By this post I simply mean to offer another opinion-- not further stir up any stew. I guess, in a sentence-- if at all possible-- hear before you buy. Even if it's in a tiny room like In Living Stereo has-- it'll still be usefull-- especially before you buy NEW-- that's for sure!!!!! You could lose a LOT of money gambling on other peoples' ears.
I did with the Gibbons to the tune of about 600 to 800 bucks (or was it more?). Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to read a review of that new Thiel with the corrugated aluminum cones and then comb audiogon for a pair. I hear they're GREAT... :D
Agree with you 100% on the Thiels! I think they produce some god-awful sound and could never understand the praise they get. Then again, I feel the same way about the Merlin VSM I once owned, that they were thin, etched and un-musical, and they too get universal praise. Go fig-ya! :scratch:
As far as DeVore....
Never heard the floorstanders. I own the monitors, so my comments are limited to them. I can say I will not tolerate thin, harsh, tipped, analytical or otherwise unmusical speakers....never, ever. I'm particularly sensitive to it. And my DeVore monitors never sound that way.
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I've only heard the Gibbons at "In Living Stereo" in NYC. I like others found them too tipped-up in the treble and therefore not easy to listen to for long periods of time. The dealer was driving them with a Moon I5 integrated. The excess treble distracted one from the midrange and bass. The dealer then switched to a Shindo, Cain system. The speakers were the Abby's; a beautiful sound with great tone.
I'd be leery of any speaker than sounds good with only one type or make of amplification. I remember a very interesting demonstration by Red Planet audio (now defunct I believe) at the 2005 New York Hi End Show. The 250 watts per channel solid state amplifier was driving Rethm speakers. The combo was excellent; great sound stage, superb tonality, etc.
Jim
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while i happen to think thiels are awesome speakers - extremely musical, fantastic soundstaging, wery detailed, while not at all harsh - i know i have some personal "i'd never own those" speakers of my own. vandersteen & magnapan come to mind.
so, i am 100% with "onlythat", re: his suggestions that you have to try before you buy, if you are considering buying new. folks hear stuff differently. if you buy used, you can afford to take chances - you get to hear different speakers in your own rig, & you can re-sell w/o taking a financial bath.
ymmv,
doug s.
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i heard the thiel 2.4s and 1.6s and thought they sounded awesome, very musical, detailed, big soundstage... Probably dependent on upstream components... anything can sound bad if you have interconnects connected to a week old hardened doodie... im not sure what that means either.
Mike aa
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you're missing the point, me-thinks... true, while any speaker can sound bad if hooked up to one-week-old hardened doodie, (i think i know what you mean! :green: ), the point is, even if it's hooked up to the finest, most synergistic amplification extant, you may still not like it, if you don't like the familial sound of a particular speaker.
doug s.
i heard the thiel 2.4s and 1.6s and thought they sounded awesome, very musical, detailed, big soundstage... Probably dependent on upstream components... anything can sound bad if you have interconnects connected to a week old hardened doodie... im not sure what that means either.
Mike aa
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ahh... ok. true, thats the way i feel about paradigm speakers everywhere. i hate them, its a reaction i get, though they are very highly praised(over-rated?)
Mike
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okay...so a couple seem to agree with me on the Devore Gibbon 8s. I like them however. Very much so. I use Hammond rebranded Mullards and Amperexes in my amp, Oyaide SWO-GX, and it's all vinyl. perhaps that helps. *tons* of soundstage depth and a warm enough sound for me. my Gibbon 8s are angled up with two spacers in front. Do the Super 8s improve on tonality and warmth?
I heard that the Red Wine amps sound great with Devores perhaps because I also hear that they are warm sounding amps.
Glad to see it's working out Tvad.
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I believe the associated gear is of utmost importance in the comments made above, and I believe I can understand how each speaker would display the given characteristics in each of the listener's systems.
Thanks for listing the equipment used. It's very, very helpful.
Ian, you heard the Gibbons with Shindo gear. This is considered to be an ideal pairing. I take it the Gibbons still didn't do it for you. What did you end up buying, and are you driving them with the Odyssey amps?
I typed up a response the other day, but for some reason didn't see it here. :dunno:
Warning: This post is looong : :oops:
Well, I got lost with all the postings (still trying to learn my way around the functions in this forum!). Anyway, Shindo gear is great. Their entry-level preamp sounded agile and quick when called upon. It was very quiet just like its bigger sibling and just sounds natural. I plan to own a Shindo preamp someday. I have heard the Aurieres and Giscours at two different locations. The Aurieges was paired with the Gibbon Super 8's at In Living Stereo with accuphase cd player (forget which model). I forget the amp as well, but it used tubes. The Giscours was setup with Wilson Audio Watt/Puppy 7's with Accuphase a50v amplifier and Esoteric CD player in Innovative Audio, in Manhattan, NY.
The Gibbon Super 8's sounded good. It rendered a neutral mids and bass without over emphasizing them. For some reason though, just like hogg (Jim) and somebody else mentioned somewhere in this thread, I thought that the highs were a bit tipped up. They weren't over bearing, but I guess you can sense it upon listening to several songs.
At the end I did not end up with them because I already had speakers that I believed equaled, if not surpassed them in some areas. The speakers I had at the time were the already mentioned Taylo monitors, ACI Jaguar 2000, and the ProAc response 2.5 clone. I thought and said to myself that in order for me to actually buy something, it had to be a "head and shoulders" above upgrade. I will try and share the differences between these speakers and hopefully it'll help you find your next pair of speakers - hopefully this is not too late.
The ACI Jaguars are the most neutral of the three with the best bass, bar none. These monitors sound more like floorstanders than monitors. Its mids are a touch warm, but does not call attention to itself. Its highs are also well-balanced - not polite, though it falls a bit short compared to ribbon tweeters. Now whether you like ribbon signature sound or what-not, I'm not sure. Though I believe that the best dome tweeters can do the job just the same, if not better given the type of application. The Proac Response 2.5 clones' sound quality will fall in between the ACI's and the Taylos. The ProAc's have a touch more on the top end than the ACI's, but won't even approach it in the bass region. The ProAc's mids are warmer, in my room and the already equipment mentioned, and is more holographic. The ACI's have better pinpoint imaging and huge soundstage, whereas the ProAc's mids make instruments float. The taylos have the most resolution of the three, probably because of the seas excel midbass. The ACI's and ProAc's I have use the Scan-speak 8545 woofers, and same tweeters - SS D2905-9300 (I think). I eventually sold the Taylo monitors.
I ended up getting Linkwitz Orions. I had to sell the Odyssey Stratos Extreme because I needed at least six channels of amplification. I replaced the Odysseys with Integra Research RDA-7 multichannel amp (well, the ATI first then this). It is the most neutral of all my speakers. Being a floorstander and full-range, these speakers sound complete and utterly accurate. Driver integration is great without sounding harsh, or etched. Let me describe from bottom-up: The dipole bass gives strong bass without being flabby nor tubby. I do not hear stored bass energy in corners, whatsoever. The mids employ the seas excel (8") mid bass, and yet, though shares the same brand as the Taylos, these sound much more neutral. The level of midrange detail is almost the same, but I would still give the edge to the Orions because the illusion it creates - like being at a venue, though you can tell that it isn't "forced" like some sort of DSP was put in the mix. It is hard to describe. Finally, the treble extension creates an illusion that it is almost tangible. For instance, if a synth-pop track is played, it is what it's going to sound like as if the artist is in front of you playing with a KORG keyboard. With jazz, literally just the same. Some speakers I've heard sound as if the treble was tipped up to give it more sparkle... sounding a bit forced, and sometimes even bright, but these sound real - effortless. These speakers are accurate, so whatever the characteristic of the recording and equipments are, will be conveyed. I guess you would just have to blend it a bit with your listening tastes.
I hardly watch TV shows nowadays. I come home from work, fire the music system up, and either just run through my collections, whether cd or vinyl, or in most cases fall asleep while the music's on (and this is without drinking beer :lol:)
I hope this helped. Goodluck on this crazy journey we're in :lol: I still have the ACI's that I use as surrounds until I find a better place for them, and the ProAc's are in my gf's place :icon_lol:
Thanks for taking the time to read.
ian
Current equipments used:
2 channel:
Van Alstine TSLR-7 Pre
Sony SCD-XA777ES Player
Integra Research RDA-7 Multichannel Amp
Linkwitz Orion Speakers with mid and tweeter upgrade
Multichannel:
Linkwitz Orions in the front
Integra RDC-7 Processor (upgraded)
Integra RDV-1 DVD Player
ATI 1506 Multichannel Amp
ACI Jaguar, Protege, and Titan speakers
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I've only heard the Gibbons at "In Living Stereo" in NYC. I like others found them too tipped-up in the treble and therefore not easy to listen to for long periods of time. The dealer was driving them with a Moon I5 integrated. The excess treble distracted one from the midrange and bass. The dealer then switched to a Shindo, Cain system. The speakers were the Abby's; a beautiful sound with great tone.
For some reason though, just like hogg (Jim) and somebody else mentioned somewhere in this thread, I thought that the highs were a bit tipped up.
Just to clarify, I believe you're talking about two different speakers. I originally heard the gibbon 8s at ILS when they were also carrying the Abbys. This was back in 2003 and before the super 8s existed. So hogg (Jim) is talking about the gibbon 8s not the super 8s. It's also interesting to note these speakers use different drivers.
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If you're still looking:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1189802587 (http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1189802587)
Jim
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If you're still looking:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1189802587 (http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1189802587) Jim
So. How did they sound for you? What amps did you use?
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Sweet. Good luck Grant! :thumb: