AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Bryston Limited => Topic started by: Tony1 on 24 Aug 2008, 05:22 pm
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Has anyone experimented using anti-vibration devices like cones under amps or CD players? I've heard that the improve performace. There are so many types made out of different material like granite, carbon fiber.
What interested me in this was someones review on the Bryston website of the BCD-1 saying that it made a difference.
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I have been playing with Black Diamond Racing cones, #3 for my CD player and its external power supply (Lector CDP 7), with great results, I am not really a great believer in this stuff but it really works, experiment with positioning of the cones.
I recently purchased the Mapleshade triplepoint heavy hat vibe killers to place on top of the cdplayer, but it did nothing as far as I can hear. Ive tried them on other components as well but no great results at all.
The BDR cones have really worked great for me, they cost 60 bucks for 3 and come with a money back guarantee, give em a try, if you don't like em send em back :thumb:
I am sending back my Mapleshade stuff, they have a similar return policy. Not trying to knock Mapleshade brass weights, I am sure many people have had great results, but not me.
BDR and Mapleshade both offer money back guarantees which in this crazy hobby is as good as it gets, with so much snake oil being peddled, the guarantee makes you feel good, they must have faith in their products to offer it.\
But give the BDR cones a try, I am pretty sure you will be happy, it just took my CD player to another level, it improved focus and soundstage and cleaned up the upper end a bit. Try #3 for digital.
Mike
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Tony,
Here what I have found works best under my CDP, top to botton. Your results may vary.
Double zip-lock bag filled w/ play sand - CDP - 3 Brass Pointed Cones (8th Nerve) - 2" thick maple block cutting board - 4 rubber/cork/rubber isolation pads (available on Agon $10/set of 4).
Herbie's Black Hole CD mats too!
NB
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Hi All,
This is an interesting topic.
What do the manufacturers of these types of products claim they do?
For instance how does an Isolation Platform solution differ from a Cone setup? Is it energy storage and dissipation (platform) vs energy drain to a larger mass (cone)?
It kind of reminds me of turntable days when you had some manufactures extolling the benefits of large mass turntables while others supported sprung suspension low mass tables.
james
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I have to say I'm a skeptic. Maybe they will make a difference on a turntable, where isolation from unwanted vibration is essential, but on a CD player, where a laser beam picks up ones and zeros from a disc, I fail to see the benefit. Unless you live in an earthquake prone area, I can't see isolation cones making the ones and the zeros more one-ish or more zero-ish. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe many professional recording studios have cones under their digital recording equipments. My two-cents worth.
Ash
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I agree with ashtarul. :thumb:
If it was something that important it would already be in seriously built components.
I would like to see unbiased lab measurements of such devices and not only rumours.
My gear is on a heavy purpose built 80kg rack that is pretty inert and I give up here.
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I have tried and still use some of the various devices (Gingko, maple wood block, Symposium, Black Diamond cones etc...) they do make an audible difference but not major in my case, just more fine tuning to taste I guess. Whether they were making up for some negative somewhere else in the system or not, but I heard differences. If I was using a purpose made rack or stands then I would be less likely to use such devices. I have mostly moved to various forms of wood, granite and cork and use the other devices less now.
I have especially noticed differences under any component that has moving parts.
Now if I had issues with my system I would obviously look at room treatments and electrical delivery before using other tweaks as that's where my biggest non-component gains have come from.
Now given that one can likely find some granite for cheap or free, If just starting in this area, I'd happily go that route with granite and some of those cork/rubber footers and call it a day. Everyday, I drive by a graveyard (creepy I know) and they have slaps of 5 inch+ granite that the groundskeeper was going to give me for free but I don't need it.
Builder sites, local Habitat for Humanity, salvage yards etc... usually have granite remnants there as well, I can get granite easy in my area. I've got chunks lying around that I collected. Also concrete pavers from Home Depot may work if it fits your system, maybe not SOTA for the audiophile but if you want cheap and effective isolation, maybe not vibration draining or tuned isolation but good isolation none the less. If I needed something under a big amp. or speakers I would go this route first, concrete atop inexpensive spikes or cork/rubber pads. If you can find some 1/2 inch thick or more acrylic that's good too.
Try a big concrete paver (you can spray paint it or cover it in a fabric with spray adhesive) below (and atop) your subwoofer (mass loading I guess) made a nice difference to my ears. Also Plasi-clay or mortite on components with moving/spinning parts works well too. The better your system is put together, the less likley these devices will make substantial improvements IMO, unless we are talking about specific tuned devices in the more expensive isolation/vibration products. In many cases I think these devices may be just lowering or changing the resonant freq. and that's the audible difference I heard and that may be achieved more economically with accessible off the shelf products, but I'm not even close to well educated on these matters, just my opinion.
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I found on Cd players the Audiopoints ( 1" ) brass cones work the best under my Meridian cd player...Tried Vibrapods ( yuk ) ..Wood Blocks ( nope ) ...The Audiopoints are the only tweek that worked without negatives for me...........
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Cork/neoprene pads for cheap!
http://www.soundproofing.org/infopages/vibrationpads.htm
Actually there are some products here that you'll see on audiofool sites for a large premium price.
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Cork/neoprene pads for cheap!
http://www.soundproofing.org/infopages/vibrationpads.htm
Actually there are some products here that you'll see on audiofool sites for a large premium price.
Yes, these are what I use in my system. a good place to start cheaply and may be all you need. Have open ears, what may seem like a dulling of the top end may be a reduction of some top end distortion or highlighting. As always, YMMV.
Here's a review if it helps. The site also has several reviews of similar products as well.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/isolpads/isolpads.html
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Hi Joey (launche),
Love the picture (see above).
Is that you trying to listen in Mono? :lol:
I don't see any cork under your head? :lol:
james
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I have to say I'm a skeptic. Maybe they will make a difference on a turntable, where isolation from unwanted vibrations is essential, but on a CD player, where a laser beam picks up ones and zeros from a disc, I fail to see the benefit. Unless you live in an earthquake prone area, I can't see isolation cones making the ones and the zeros more one-ish or more zero-ish. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe many professional recording studios have cones under their digital recording equipments. My two-cents worth.
Ash
yeah save your money and go to the local arts and crafts store . they have foam pads of any color thatll do the trick for less than two bucks
if you cant hear skipping or lots of data errors than the data is getting there ... people still think like cds are analog or something !!!! data is either error free or not you cant get the same data to sound any different unless there is a severe clocking problem and nothing has that since the eighties.
there are so many companies with rip offs just waiting for the same kind of guy that would buy a piece of toast with jesus face on it a sucker born every minute like pt barnum would say remember the green marker to make your cds sound better ?????? does anyone remember that ?????? don't we learn from these lessons ???????
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For anyone interested I found a site that reviews some isolation devices
http://www.gcaudio.com/products/reviews/infoisolationoverview_3.html
Thanks for the input. I'll try some of the less expensive foam pads, cork etc to see how they work. I may try one of the better isolation devices as most companies give a 30 day money back guarantee.
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I have to say I'm a skeptic. Maybe they will make a difference on a turntable, where isolation from unwanted vibrations is essential, but on a CD player, where a laser beam picks up ones and zeros from a disc, I fail to see the benefit. Unless you live in an earthquake prone area, I can't see isolation cones making the ones and the zeros more one-ish or more zero-ish. Ash
The problem isn't with the ones and zeros but with the timing between them.
Also note this item in Wikipedia (if true) about Microphonic vibrations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphonics). Simply stated, microphonic vibration creates unwanted voltages in electronic parts by piezo electric action. If the vibration is damped or decoupled these unwanted voltages in the signal path are lessened.
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I have to say I'm a skeptic. Maybe they will make a difference on a turntable, where isolation from unwanted vibrations is essential, but on a CD player, where a laser beam picks up ones and zeros from a disc, I fail to see the benefit. Unless you live in an earthquake prone area, I can't see isolation cones making the ones and the zeros more one-ish or more zero-ish. Ash
The problem isn't with the ones and zeros but with the timing between them.
Also note this item in Wikipedia (if true) about Microphonic vibrations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphonics). Simply stated, microphonic vibration creates unwanted voltages in electronic parts by piezo electric action. If the vibration is damped or decoupled these unwanted voltages in the signal path are lessened.
piezo electric action?????? cds are d i g i t a l not analog
the whole point of digital is noise immunity
you sound like a great target customer for th guys that sell audio snake oil
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Boy, you sure have all THE_ANSWERS. Where have we been all this time without you?
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Rather than responding to KS's comment -
The problem isn't with the ones and zeros but with the timing between them.
with THE_ANSWERS, you might consider A_QUESTION. You might actually learn something.
FWIW
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Rather than responding to KS's comment -
The problem isn't with the ones and zeros but with the timing between them.
with THE_ANSWERS, you might consider A_QUESTION. You might actually learn something.
FWIW
if you want to waste your money on smoke&mirrors go right ahead watch out for all the scams out there the are a-plenty here !!!!!!!!!
here are some: cd damping pads anti-vibration platforms except for record players reclocking devices between cd transportand dac directional audio cables with batteries in them 10 gage speaker cable power reconditioners but not all of them i can probably come up with more but may be wasting my time on gullable people if they are outraged by my pointing these out
of course if youre selling this stuff the last thing you want is for people to be n to you
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I'm not against anybody making any point if they're willing to back their opinions with fact or reasoned conjecture. Saying "X product is a scam" isn't stating fact or following logic, that's strictly opinion as clearly there are lots of folks that disagree. Frankly, most of the folks that agree are on different forums but you probably wouldn't know that since you just showed up last week.
Making a reasoned opinion for serious discussion is great, whether in support or against some product or idea. Calling entire sections of the industry "scams" without any support and intimating that customers of same are gullible falls cleanly within the modern phenomenon of thread crapping, IMO.
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Rather than responding to KS's comment -
The problem isn't with the ones and zeros but with the timing between them.
with THE_ANSWERS, you might consider A_QUESTION. You might actually learn something.
FWIW
if you want to waste your money on smoke&mirrors go right ahead watch out for all the scams out there the are a-plenty here !!!!!!!!!
here are some: cd damping pads anti-vibration platforms except for record players reclocking devices between cd transportand dac directional audio cables with batteries in them 10 gage speaker cable power reconditioners but not all of them i can probably come up with more but may be wasting my time on gullable people if they are outraged by my pointing these out
of course if youre selling this stuff the last thing you want is for people to be n to you
Do you have something against complete sentences and proper punctuation? :scratch:
-Roy
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I'm not against anybody making any point if they're willing to back their opinions with fact or reasoned conjecture. Saying "X product is a scam" isn't stating fact or following logic, that's strictly opinion as clearly there are lots of folks that disagree. Frankly, most of the folks that agree are on different forums but you probably wouldn't know that since you just showed up last week.
Making a reasoned opinion for serious discussion is great, whether in support or against some product or idea. Calling entire sections of the industry "scams" without any support and intimating that customers of same are gullible falls cleanly within the modern phenomenon of thread crapping, IMO.
sorry i feel like ive also been a victim of scams before and explaining every last detail is a waste of my time i was ripped off big time long ago on a tonearm and ever since always look out . ill pick isolation platforms for cd playes as an example....... if the transport or cd player is designed right it wont need any help against vibration that is part of the standard cd player product quality test dont you think companies test their equipment?????? especially one like bryston would certainly test the effect of vibration on their players and correct any problems before selling it so you see you shouldnt need a platform i agree with the guy or gal that commented about earthquakes!!!!!!! maybe you sell these things or something
why dont you tell me why im wrong instead of trying to *berate me* since you are so defensive it makes me wonder why so why dont you explain that c'ya
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THE_ANSWERS,
Please try to stay focused. I said nothing about anti-vibration devices. All I did was reprise a comment made by KS, that I thought was spot on, and which I thought would benefit many participants here, especially you, if you hadn't been so dismissive. He simply said -
The problem isn't with the ones and zeros but with the timing between them.
and you might actually learn something from a follow up question. Briefly, the recovery of a clock signal depends upon determining exactly where a signal goes from low to high or versa visa. Because the voltage changes do not have an infinite dV/dt, that determination is inherently ANALOG and probabilistic, leading to jitter. I'll leave it at that, as there are folks here, Pat, Audioengnr, GBB and others who have far more expertise than I, who will hopefully comment.
As to antivibration devices, you might want to inform the aerospace and medical instrumentation community of the frauds being perpetrated upon them. If you'd bother to peruse some application notes from the semiconductor industry, you'd find plenty of 'best practices' about physically isolating critical components like oscillators, DtoAs, AtoDs, etc... to minimize vibration induced correlated jitter, which is far more harmful than non correlated jitter. A lumped jitter measurement hardly begins to tell the story.
Ideally, these issues would be addressed by the manufacturer with respect to vibration, power conditioning and a whole slew of other issues, but components are built to a price point. Such is the nature of the beast. To reflexively cast aspersions upon everything you (obviously) don't understand, only compromises whatever valid comments you may have.
FWIW
PS - Apologies to Brystron for intruding in their circle on an issue not specific to their products, on product which I've had little exposure to.
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ifthe transport or cd player is designed right.....
Hmm, thats a big if :green:
Bryston equipment has a reputation for good design, but not all companies are in the same league or they may be building equipment for lower price points which requires more compromises.
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why dont you tell me why im wrong instead of trying to *berate me* since you are so defensive it makes me wonder why so why dont you explain that c'ya
Sorry , the onus is on you. Why? Because you are the one making bold assertions, not me. That's how it works - 1) You make a claim, then 2) You back it up. It's pretty simple.
I'm not defensive, like I said - any point you want to make is fine with me. But, making the point is more than one sentence declaring Scammers! Your "point" is really just unsubstantiated drivel.
The fact that you've been ripped off makes you personally more cautious but it doesn't mean everyone's out to get you.
I just received a very high-end preamplifier. It came with a cheap IEC cord. Do I assume the manufacturer believes that's the best sound choice? Nope, it means he's left that choice to me as there are lots of variables in power cord choice. Similarly, reports of vibration control success/voicing vary widely. Most of the folks that report success find certain products work well while others don't. Some folks like "Product A" and others "Product B" - like power cables, different ideas of what's "right".
While some player manufacturers probably believe in vibration isolation, achieving perfect results inside the player chassis is going to be difficult and expensive. If it can be done after the fact by the user, why not allow that flexibility. It surely will keep costs down and everybody's shooting for a price point, be it high or low.
The fact that this sub-discussion continues proves my point about thread crapping.
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THE_ANSWERS,
Please try to stay focused. I said nothing about anti-vibration devices. All I did was reprise a comment made by KS, that I thought was spot on, and which I thought would benefit many participants here, especially you, if you hadn't been so dismissive. He simply said -
The problem isn't with the ones and zeros but with the timing between them.
and you might actually learn something from a follow up question. Briefly, the recovery of a clock signal depends upon determining exactly where a signal goes from low to high or versa visa. Because the voltage changes do not have an infinite dV/dt, that determination is inherently ANALOG and probabilistic, leading to jitter. I'll leave it at that, as there are folks here, Pat, Audioengnr, GBB and others who have far more expertise than I, who will hopefully comment.
As to antivibration devices, you might want to inform the aerospace and medical instrumentation community of the frauds being perpetrated upon them. If you'd bother to peruse some application notes from the semiconductor industry, you'd find plenty of 'best practices' about physically isolating critical components like oscillators, DtoAs, AtoDs, etc... to minimize vibration induced correlated jitter, which is far more harmful than non correlated jitter. A lumped jitter measurement hardly begins to tell the story.
Ideally, these issues would be addressed by the manufacturer with respect to vibration, power conditioning and a whole slew of other issues, but components are built to a price point. Such is the nature of the beast. To reflexively cast aspersions upon everything you (obviously) don't understand, only compromises whatever valid comments you may have.
FWIW
PS - Apologies to Brystron for intruding in their circle on an issue not specific to their products, on product which I've had little exposure to.
Hi Occam
james here from Bryston:
No apology necessary - the more shared input (info) the better.
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Sorry , the onus is on you. Why? Because you are the one making bold assertions, not me. That's how it works - 1) You make a claim, then 2) You back it up. It's pretty simple.
The fact that you've been ripped off before means you personally are more cautious but it doesn't mean everyone's out to get you.
I just received a very high-end preamplifier. It came with a cheap IEC cord. Do I assume the manufacturer believes that's the best sound choice? Nope, it means he's left that choice to me as there are lots of variables in power cord choice. Reports of vibration control success/voicing vary widely. Most of the folks that report success find certain products work well while others don't. Some folks like "Product A" and others "Product B" - like power cables, different ideas of what's "right".
While some player manufacturers probably believe in vibration isolation, achieving perfect results inside the player chassis is going to be difficult and expensive. If it can be done after the fact by the user, why not allow that flexibility. It surely will keep costs down and everybody's shooting for a price point, be it high or low.
you do have a good point on that one and i even agree !!!!!!! bryston is pretty high quality stuff though and i would expect no real need for add ons btw i dont feel like i have to prove every little thing or it would take forever to get a post out
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ifthe transport or cd player is designed right.....
Hmm, thats a big if :green:
Bryston equipment has a reputation for good design, but not all companies are in the same league or they may be building equipment for lower price points which requires more compromises.
yes sounds reasonable so these platforms are so you can use cheaper equipment well as long as the total $$$$$ is less than fine with me but id sooner by the bryston and i believe they are not saying you need a platform for a high quality player like theirs
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Wouldn't you think a Bryston player would likely be used in a high-end, very revealing system? One that shows even very small variations in sound? I would. It's fully possible this is more important in a great setup than one far less capable.
If you don't have time to support your "point", better to not make it.
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Although I'm known as a skeptic here I do like a bit of tweaking believe it or not. :)
Because you can't do a proper blind ABX test (wash my mouth out with soap) with these things you end up chasing shadows and wasting budget. Unfortunately a lot of these supports and widgets are very expensive. It seems a lot of the cost is because people are willing to pay rather than the cost of design or manufacture.
My listening room is on the second floor and has a wooden floor. It can vibrate a lot. I've found that putting the right kind isolation under my amp and speakers makes a difference to the bass response and character. In contrast, I don't know if I can detect any difference even when I pick up my SB3 whilst it's playing! I guess you need to experiment.
It doesn't cost a lot to experiment. I've found a combination of 'hard' and 'soft' isolation work well. By 'hard' I mean basic isolation spikes which work well especially if you place coins at the sharp end. I've found hard isolation tightens the bass but can leave the sound a bit clinical. By 'soft' I mean inner tubes or bubble wrap under a tile or board on which the spike/equipment rests. I've found this improves everything else. So a combination works for me with my current system.
I could be deluding myself of course. But I've achieved a result that makes me happy for - and this is my main point - not a lot of time or money.
And here's the kicker for me. A bigger improvement was made than with all the above by doing just one thing: moving the equipment stack away from the speakers (in my case behind the main listening position). I think putting your equipment near to the loudspeakers is a pretty crazy thing to do vibration-wise and yet 99.9% of set ups do exactly that. Why spend thousands on support and tweaks when the equipment is being placed even nearer to the transducers than your ears? Go put your head where your equipment sits and play something loud and you'll hear what I mean.
Darren
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There are obviously 2 opposing camps. We are discussing audio equipments so let's stay focused. The first thread asked about anti-vibration/isolation cones placed under the Bryston CD player in the review and the difference the reviewer heard. I wrote earlier about being a skeptic and here's why. Most recording studios, where a musical performance is recorded, have their equipments SCREWED onto racks. How butch is that!! Even Bryston make 19-inch rackplace-size front fascia, which doesn't surprise me, with their successful background in professional audio. I had once experienced listening to music in a professional recording/mastering studio with a LAPTOP placed on the floor feeding a DAC as the source, and that was the clearest, sweetest, most realistic sound I've ever heard in my entire life! And no, there wasn't a single isolation cone under that laptop or the DAC.
Someone also mentioned timing between the ones and zeros and microphonic vibrations. Isn't the timing handled by the master clock or whatever dejittering device the engineers decided to use? And is microphonic vibration such a nuisance that the interference can be heard by the human ear? If so, show me proof and direct me to the website/reading material. I will gladly change my mind. Hifi is essentially electrical engineering, thus everything can/should be able to be measured. I'm not an electrical engineer, just an audiophile who wasn't always a skeptic. Heck, I probably still have some isolation cones stashed away somewhere. I became a skeptic by trial and error, from my own listening experience. I guess if your experience made you a believer then so be it. I'm just sharing mine. And music is about having fun, so take it easy. Let's at least agree to disagree.
Ash.
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If a person said they heard a difference, who are we to say they didn't?
A lot of professional gear does have a "master clock" which directs timing operations of all the sub-parts. Some of the really expensive home stuff is this way too. I don't think any of the makers would tell you that even the most ambitious clocking schemes can eliminate jitter completely. It's also not known exactly what's audible and Occam has correctly pointed out that correlated vs. uncorrelated (jitter) noise are not the same at all. What role the mechanics of the spinning discs play I certainly don't know.
Hi-fi does involve a lot of electrical engineering. But if the designer uses only his tools and not his ears in the design process, I don't trust them. Theoretically, I believe all audible aspects could be measured but either we don't understand all the aspects, the machinery isn't sufficient, or we're not looking in all the right places. This is old ground that will go in all the predictable directions.
Either one trusts what they hear and is prepared to accept unknown X factors, or they assume if they can't reconcile it in their own brains it doesn't exist. Most of us fall on one side or the other.
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I had once experienced listening to music in a professional recording/mastering studio with a LAPTOP placed on the floor feeding a DAC as the source, and that was the clearest, sweetest, most realistic sound I've ever heard in my entire life! And no, there wasn't a single isolation cone under that laptop or the DAC.
I'm assuming the studio was well treated with bass traps etc. so the clear, sweet sound you heard was probably due in large part to the way the room was treated, just a guess, I could be wrong. I do agree that it's interesting most studios do not use exotic cables and isolation devices. Chesky does use some exotic stuff and I would imagine there are other small studios doing the same but the majority just use pro gear cabling and regular AC cables and rigidly mount everything on a rack, and even on the floor sometimes as you stated........kinda makes you wonder........... :icon_lol:
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If a person said they heard a difference, who are we to say they didn't?
If a person says they were abducted by aliens, saw Bigfoot, found the Fountain of Youth or whatever, who are we to say they didn't?
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I had once experienced listening to music in a professional recording/mastering studio with a LAPTOP placed on the floor feeding a DAC as the source, and that was the clearest, sweetest, most realistic sound I've ever heard in my entire life! And no, there wasn't a single isolation cone under that laptop or the DAC.
I'm assuming the studio was well treated with bass traps etc. so the clear, sweet sound you heard was probably due in large part to the way the room was treated, just a guess, I could be wrong. I do agree that it's interesting most studios do not use exotic cables and isolation devices. Chesky does use some exotic stuff and I would imagine there are other small studios doing the same but the majority just use pro gear cabling and regular AC cables and rigidly mount everything on a rack, and even on the floor sometimes as you stated........kinda makes you wonder........... :icon_lol:
Have you ever read the accounts of Joe Harley re-wiring Kevin Grey's studio? Kevin was blown away by the difference. It seems that most studios use "pro grade cabling" out of dogma and the mistaken belief that there is no difference. (That was Grey's belief prior to the re-wire, now he believes (understands?) differently.) The cabling difference can be heard on the Music Matters Blue Note reissues and has been noted by some critics. So maybe, just maybe, some of this tweak stuff is real? Makes you wonder what would happen if a studio went all out with the audiophile methodology.
BTW - Mapleshade also used audiophile tweaks in the recording and mastering studio. Mapleshade recordings have been highly regarded for their sonics. I wonder why?
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If a person says they were abducted by aliens, saw Bigfoot, found the Fountain of Youth or whatever, who are we to say they didn't?
:lol:
Good one.
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There are obviously 2 opposing camps. We are discussing audio equipments so let's stay focused. The first thread asked about anti-vibration/isolation cones placed under the Bryston CD player in the review and the difference the reviewer heard. I wrote earlier about being a skeptic and here's why. Most recording studios, where a musical performance is recorded, have their equipments SCREWED onto racks. How butch is that!! Even Bryston make 19-inch rackplace-size front fascia, which doesn't surprise me, with their successful background in professional audio. I had once experienced listening to music in a professional recording/mastering studio with a LAPTOP placed on the floor feeding a DAC as the source, and that was the clearest, sweetest, most realistic sound I've ever heard in my entire life! And no, there wasn't a single isolation cone under that laptop or the DAC.
Someone also mentioned timing between the ones and zeros and microphonic vibrations. Isn't the timing handled by the master clock or whatever dejittering device the engineers decided to use? And is microphonic vibration such a nuisance that the interference can be heard by the human ear? If so, show me proof and direct me to the website/reading material. I will gladly change my mind. Hifi is essentially electrical engineering, thus everything can/should be able to be measured. I'm not an electrical engineer, just an audiophile who wasn't always a skeptic. Heck, I probably still have some isolation cones stashed away somewhere. I became a skeptic by trial and error, from my own listening experience. I guess if your experience made you a believer then so be it. I'm just sharing mine. And music is about having fun, so take it easy. Let's at least agree to disagree.
Ash.
that has got to be one of the ***best**** posts i have seen on ac yet !!!!!!!!! amen, bro lots of people say they can hear a difference after they just spent serious money on something like a platform why would they want to tell everybody they made a mistake or they are not sure if they made a mistake this is why i suggested buying some foam at an arts and crafts store . try that first anyway
that's my point and im not making ' bold accusations' just being honest maybe painfully so for some if you are all for these gizmos than i think the burden to prove they are worth the money is on you moreso if you sell them!!
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Not much for listening, are you? Resilient yes, responsive . . . not so much.
Here's the problem and why I'm giving you such a hard time: People are having a discussion of which support devices they like, having a civil discussion with like-minded folks. You swoop in and call the lot of them idiots for thinking as they do. Yet, none of your complaint is refutable because you haven't made any point whatsoever except "I don't think these things work and I think you're stupid for thinking otherwise". The discussion from this point can go nowhere good because it has derailed.
If you had any knowledge of the workings of CDPs and could debate actual function, we'd have something. If you said "I've tried XYZ and they didn't work in my setup" we could go from there. But, your chosen method amounts to nothing more than conversation killing.
Your moniker THE_ANSWERS could not be more fitting, you have your mind made up about everything and are content to repeat the same ANSWERS to everything ad nauseam. None of us know all this stuff but nearly all of us are at least aware of that. We're all here to learn, not to hear your uninformed criticisms over and over. Note, I haven't said one word about my beliefs on vibration control. It's irrelevant to the point I'm making, which is if folks wish to discuss it they should be able to do so without unproductive distraction. Hmmm . . . seems I was making a counterargument to this about another contentious issue a while back . . . :D
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Here's the problem and why your strategy is thread crapping: People are having a discussion of which support devices they like, having a civil discussion with like-minded folks. You swoop in and call the lot of them idiots for thinking as they do. Yet, none of your complaint is refutable because you haven't made any point whatsoever except "I don't think these things work and I think you're stupid for thinking otherwise". The discussion from this point can go nowhere good because it's gotten completely sidetracked.
If you had any knowledge of the workings of CDPs and could debate actual function, we'd have something. If you said "I've tried XYZ and they didn't work in my setup" we could go from there. But, your chosen method amounts to nothing more than conversation killing.
Your moniker THE_ANSWERS could not be more fitting, you have your mind made up about everything and are content to repeat the same ANSWERS to everything ad nauseam. None of us know all this stuff but nearly all of us are at least aware of that. We're all here to learn, not to hear your uninformed criticisms over and over. Note, I haven't said one word about my beliefs on vibration control. It's irrelevant to the point I'm making, which is if folks wish to discuss it they should be able to do so without unproductive distraction.
you are the one crapping on me that is i never said anyone was stupid so please ease up you sound so angry i dont know how you can be a music listener and so uptight who is the one criticising?????? read through the stuf i wrote here and see that it is valuable and can save some people money ............... they can try a simple low cost idea first to see if there is any effect so you know i have done this and did well with a simple foam pad and a cheap technics cdp even near my speakers mission at the time driving an external dac ..... previously the bass made the cd skip especially cdrs ...... have you ever tried any of this????????????????? eventually i moved the speakers farther apart giving me more room to space the cdp away from them and the foam wasnt necessary i have used lots of different equipment and dont spend lots of money on it lots of the stuff i have used is borrowed or traded with friends and family i take pride in good sound on the cheap and thats where i stand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Haven't called anybody stupid?
there are so many companies with rip offs just waiting for the same kind of guy that would buy a piece of toast with jesus face on it a sucker born every minute like pt barnum would say remember the green marker to make your cds sound better ?????? does anyone remember that ?????? don't we learn from these lessons ???????
piezo electric action?????? cds are d i g i t a l not analog
the whole point of digital is noise immunity
you sound like a great target customer for th guys that sell audio snake oil
if you want to waste your money on smoke&mirrors go right ahead
im not making ' bold accusations' just being honest maybe painfully so for some
I've made my point, I don't think you understand it for whatever reason but saying it more isn't going to help just like yelling at the "foreigner" isn't going to aid comprehension. If you really want to be a member of this community you would be well-served to try communicating in a post-second-grade manner with some thought and perspective.
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Haven't called anybody stupid?
there are so many companies with rip offs just waiting for the same kind of guy that would buy a piece of toast with jesus face on it a sucker born every minute like pt barnum would say remember the green marker to make your cds sound better ?????? does anyone remember that ?????? don't we learn from these lessons ???????
piezo electric action?????? cds are d i g i t a l not analog
the whole point of digital is noise immunity
you sound like a great target customer for th guys that sell audio snake oil
if you want to waste your money on smoke&mirrors go right ahead
im not making ' bold accusations' just being honest maybe painfully so for some
I've made my point, I don't think you understand it for whatever reason but saying it more isn't going to help just like yelling at the "foreigner" isn't going to aid comprehension. If you really want to be a member of this community you would be well-served to try communicating in a post-second-grade manner with some thought and perspective.
looks like you have lots of time on your hands so why dont you spend it talking about audio instead of me????? this is an audio site ill pray for you
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:lol:
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I think putting your equipment near to the loudspeakers is a pretty crazy thing to do vibration-wise and yet 99.9% of set ups do exactly that. Why spend thousands on support and tweaks when the equipment is being placed even nearer to the transducers than your ears? Go put your head where your equipment sits and play something loud and you'll hear what I mean.
Yes, and...speaker cable length and non-balanced RCA interconnect cable length matters. Life is a series of compromises.
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I think putting your equipment near to the loudspeakers is a pretty crazy thing to do vibration-wise and yet 99.9% of set ups do exactly that. Why spend thousands on support and tweaks when the equipment is being placed even nearer to the transducers than your ears? Go put your head where your equipment sits and play something loud and you'll hear what I mean.
Woudn't this be a reason to use such devices. No place in the room is immune, some spots just better than others I imagine.
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I think putting your equipment near to the loudspeakers is a pretty crazy thing to do vibration-wise and yet 99.9% of set ups do exactly that. Why spend thousands on support and tweaks when the equipment is being placed even nearer to the transducers than your ears? Go put your head where your equipment sits and play something loud and you'll hear what I mean.
Yes, and...speaker cable length and non-balanced RCA interconnect cable length matters. Life is a series of compromises.
As I said my equipment is behind my seat so RCA length is not any different than normal.
Darren
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It doesn't cost a lot to experiment. I've found a combination of 'hard' and 'soft' isolation work well. By 'hard' I mean basic isolation spikes which work well especially if you place coins at the sharp end. I've found hard isolation tightens the bass but can leave the sound a bit clinical. By 'soft' I mean inner tubes or bubble wrap under a tile or board on which the spike/equipment rests. I've found this improves everything else. So a combination works for me with my current system.
And here's the kicker for me. A bigger improvement was made than with all the above by doing just one thing: moving the equipment stack away from the speakers (in my case behind the main listening position). I think putting your equipment near to the loudspeakers is a pretty crazy thing to do vibration-wise and yet 99.9% of set ups do exactly that.
Some good points here. I've built some stuff myself for experimentation purposes - wood blocks with *gasp* plywood and glued-on cork (dual compound), also some cheap rollerblocks with those - attaching spoon bowls with large caliber lead shot as the roller. Ziplock bags filled with sand are a different type of isolation. I use cheap sorbothane circles under some of my gear as well. If you find a strategy that works for you, going to a better level of execution via professional/commercial build might make sense. I'm lucky to have a fully finished basement room with concrete floor, so floor transmission isn't a problem for me.
On the gear location, mine's pretty much dictated to me. I agree that getting it away from speakers is a good idea if you can do it.
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looks like you have lots of time on your hands so why dont you spend it talking about audio instead of me????? this is an audio site ill pray for you
This is an audio site not a religious one :roll: anyway I was just chatting to god on another forum and he said he doesn't believe in you either so I wouldn't waste your time praying :D Why is it that people who say they hear no improvement at all with these products always feel the need to tell others who can that they are being ripped off deluded or just crazy? Personally speaking I'm rather pleased I can hear the improvements that some of these products have on my system at home where double ABX blind testing is really not necessary, all that matters to me is that I am getting an improvement in sound quality that my ears can detect no one else's.
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Woudn't this be a reason to use such devices. No place in the room is immune, some spots just better than others I imagine.
I didn't mean to imply that there was a position that was "immune" from vibration. :) But there's no need to imagine the difference. You can try it for yourself easily. Just place your head where your equipment is and play something loud, it's a ten second experiment. Personally I find the music significantly louder and more resonant there than at or behind the listening position, but you can report your own experience.
I don't know how different the result would be for dipoles where loudness is reduced to the sides of the speakers.
Darren
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Hi All,
Thanks for all this input but I am wondering if anyone can shed some light on the 'physics' of these kinds of devices for me. Gee’s I still can’t figure out whether the ‘cone’ is sharp side up or down!
An example of what I mean would be when I put my speakers on speaker stands or on floor spikes what exactly am I doing from a scientific standpoint. I assume the idea is to 'transfer' the energy from the speaker down to the floor spike and dissipate the energy into the larger mass of the floor? (remember the energy has to go somewhere- transfer or dissipate as heat).
So in the case of a speaker stand you would want the stand to act as a conduit to allow the energy to transfer to the larger floor mass as soon as possible. In the case of the speaker would the ‘cones’ on the bottom 'drain’ the energy from the speaker cabinet in an efficient way. In other words would the spikes be the point of least resistance for the energy to dissipate through?
Now when it comes to large mass devices (mats, cork, wood blocks etc.) I assume their purpose is to absorb any vibration and dissipate it as heat within the mass?
The reason this all came up is I was reading an interview with the designer of Harbeth speakers and his opinion of why his cabinets utilize ‘tuned’ loading as opposed to ‘mass’ loading.
james
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An example of what I mean would be when I put my speakers on speaker stands or on floor spikes what exactly am I doing from a scientific standpoint. I assume the idea is to 'transfer' the energy from the speaker down to the floor spike and dissipate the energy into the larger mass of the floor? (remember the energy has to go somewhere- transfer or dissipate as heat).
IME it depends on the floor. On concrete floors I've found it better to anchor the speaker as much as possible with a sturdy stand and possibly spikes into the floor. The concrete is able to absorb the energy and it stops there. The floor I have presently is a wooden floor that can vibrate. The floor can produce resonances and colouration so the game is about isolation of speaker and floor. So I use the same isolation scheme I described earlier of (platform plus) bubble wrap, board, spikes then speaker.
My explanation is not scientific but hopefully adds detail on what I think is happening.
Darren
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BTW Harbeth are FABULOUS.
Ash
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I think the reasons/science depend on the application. Specific to speakers, I imagine the answer would be different whether one had a bouncy wood floor vs. a concrete one. Darren hinted at the different type of devices for isolating electronics - pointed cones are supposed to (I think) drain energy from the component (or speaker) to the surface underneath. Rollerblocks are intended to do completely the opposite - decouple the two entirely. A sand bag would be looking to dissipate energy as heat as would the cheap bicycle innertube tweak. I don't understand the science of this stuff but from the reading I've done, manufacturers are looking to address varying issues which is why there are so many different types of devices.
oops, I see Darren beat me to it. :oops:
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looks like you have lots of time on your hands so why dont you spend it talking about audio instead of me????? this is an audio site ill pray for you
This is an audio site not a religious one :roll: anyway I was just chatting to god on another forum and he said he doesn't believe in you either so I wouldn't waste your time praying :D Why is it that people who say they hear no improvement at all with these products always feel the need to tell others who can that they are being ripped off deluded or just crazy? Personally speaking I'm rather pleased I can hear the improvements that some of these products have on my system at home where double ABX blind testing is really not necessary, all that matters to me is that I am getting an improvement in sound quality that my ears can detect no one else's.
"ill pray for you" was totally sarcastic, dude yes, you can have improvement, im just saying to try the cheap method first my other entry even stated that i have tried other methods that worked!!!!!!!!
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looks like you have lots of time on your hands so why dont you spend it talking about audio instead of me????? this is an audio site ill pray for you
This is an audio site not a religious one :roll: anyway I was just chatting to god on another forum and he said he doesn't believe in you either so I wouldn't waste your time praying :D Why is it that people who say they hear no improvement at all with these products always feel the need to tell others who can that they are being ripped off deluded or just crazy? Personally speaking I'm rather pleased I can hear the improvements that some of these products have on my system at home where double ABX blind testing is really not necessary, all that matters to me is that I am getting an improvement in sound quality that my ears can detect no one else's.
"ill pray for you" was totally sarcastic, dude yes, you can have improvement, im just saying to try the cheap method first my other entry even stated that i have tried other methods that worked!!!!!!!!
Well that's all right then :wink: I was being a little sarcastic myself "if you hadn't noticed" I also try the cheapo methods and have had some success with them, this is mainly because I don't have the cash but I do believe that a lot of supports - cones ect are massively overpriced, I know a certain amount of R&D goes into them but some of the prices they ask :o your money is better spent elsewhere IMO
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Very interesting as I've been considering changing my speaker's footings. A while ago I fabricated some outriggers for my speakers when two of the threaded inserts for the spikes gave out.
(http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1172349999.jpg)
The outriggers made them more stable which to me is the point of spikes on carpeted floors. So now I'm thinking of finding some vibration control device to place between the metal bars and the speakers. What do you think? Would I be better off with a strip of foam type vibration damping material or get some type of platform and isolate that from the speakers?
BTW, the components in my system sit on slabs of slate which I feel is very inert.
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Gee’s I still can’t figure out whether the ‘cone’ is sharp side up or down!
See this site for the answer http://www.tricell-ent.com/BDR.htm (http://www.tricell-ent.com/BDR.htm)
An example of what I mean would be when I put my speakers on speaker stands or on floor spikes what exactly am I doing from a scientific standpoint. I assume the idea is to 'transfer' the energy from the speaker down to the floor spike and dissipate the energy into the larger mass of the floor? (remember the energy has to go somewhere- transfer or dissipate as heat).
So in the case of a speaker stand you would want the stand to act as a conduit to allow the energy to transfer to the larger floor mass as soon as possible. In the case of the speaker would the ‘cones’ on the bottom 'drain’ the energy from the speaker cabinet in an efficient way. In other words would the spikes be the point of least resistance for the energy to dissipate through?
Apparently its more important to prevent a speaker from rocking, hence spikes serve first to anchor a speaker to carpets and only then to dissipate energy i.e coupling. Spikes can't be used on any other type of floor so they are either replaced with moulded rubber footers that screw on or the spikes sit on indented footers made from a variety of materials. Where the flooring is wooden you may need something else to prevent rocking such as a marble slabe and something to decouple the speaker from the floor or risk having the floor transmitting the energy back to the speaker.
I am of the opinion that unless your CDP or Transport is built like a tank e.g Wadia, you will benefit if some attention is paid to isolation and anti-vibration. I wish manufacturers would pay a little attention to these details. I can only think of Audio Aero who I believe provide BDR cones with their CDPs.
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I've read some reviews where effort was made to decouple the speaker from the floor. I can't recall any where the effect was positive. Of course, ymmv.
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Look at the latest issue of HiFi+. They tried to different isolation systems with speakers with positive results.
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I've read some reviews where effort was made to decouple the speaker from the floor. I can't recall any where the effect was positive. Of course, ymmv.
My POV is it depends on the floor. IMO concrete floors are much preferable...maybe all the reviewers had these?
Darren
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I honestly don't remember, it's been quite a while since I read them. I wasn't trying to discourage experimentation, rather passing along the meager tidbits I had on tap.