AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: BrandonB on 4 Feb 2024, 11:01 pm
-
Just curious as to what everyone is running with their NX-series. Let know what piece of equipment is what for example: Tube Preamp with solid state amp or all tubes or all solid state.
-
Hybrid here. PS Audio BHK 300 monoblocks, and BHK Preamp. I am currently in the process of building an ANK Kit 2.1 Signature which is a tube DAC. Hopefully it will turn out good with the PS Audio gear.
-
Just curious as to what everyone is running with their NX-series. Let know what piece of equipment is what for example: Tube Preamp with solid state amp or all tubes or all solid state.
Brandon, I have formed some very definitive thoughts about "equipment" based on various things I've owned, and there is a reason for what I own what I own now, and why. I've gotten to the point where there are certain key elements I look for that are leading indicators for whether it's something I want to try / will probably like. I'll tell you about it, but I'm curious... what do you own now, and what about it do you not like? You must be asking this question because "something is missing"...
Is it missing "the magic"... visceral stuff where you know "it's right"? (or not)
-
Hybrid here. PS Audio BHK 300 monoblocks, and BHK Preamp. I am currently in the process of building an ANK Kit 2.1 Signature which is a tube DAC. Hopefully it will turn out good with the PS Audio gear.
The ANK DAC's look very interesting.
-
I also use the PS Audio hybrid (tube input/SS output stage) BHK preamp and the M1200 monoblocks. The BHK monoblocks are out of my reach.
Prior to getting the M1200s, I would switch off between the SS M700 monoblocks and the PrimaLuna Prologue 4. The hybrid M1200s gave me everything I loved about the M700s and the PrimaLuna in one package.
-
Brandon, I have formed some very definitive thoughts about "equipment" based on various things I've owned, and there is a reason for what I own what I own now, and why. I've gotten to the point where there are certain key elements I look for that are leading indicators for whether it's something I want to try / will probably like. I'll tell you about it, but I'm curious... what do you own now, and what about it do you not like? You must be asking this question because "something is missing"...
Is it missing "the magic"... visceral stuff where you know "it's right"? (or not)
I just like hearing what people have and like. I am building out my system as we speak. I have some NX-otica's that I am about complete in a few weeks. I had fredrick build my crossovers and speaker cables. He does a great job. Just picked up the crossovers wiring for the speakers and speaker wire at Danny's from being cryo'd. I have an SMC audio DNA.5 amplifier and ran it on Danny's system and it sounded really good. I was able to compare it to Danny's reference mono blocks and it held its own. SMC audio customizes all their equipment. Now I am going to pick up a DAC and some subs. It's kinda like eating an elephant.
-
I also use the PS Audio hybrid (tube input/SS output stage) BHK preamp and the M1200 monoblocks. The BHK monoblocks are out of my reach.
Prior to getting the M1200s, I would switch off between the SS M700 monoblocks and the PrimaLuna Prologue 4. The hybrid M1200s gave me everything I loved about the M700s and the PrimaLuna in one package.
I see a lot of people with PS audio equipment. I also have read about people replacing the transformenrs and upgrading the Caps on the MK1 DAC and having great results but the upgrade isn't cheap. Some have said it is the best DAC they have listened too.
-
I had the MK1 in my system for a number of years until I git the MK2. As great as the MK1 is, the MK2 is a lot better. Especially after the latest firmware and FPGA updates.
When you were in my room last year at LSAF you were listening to the MK2, BHK preamp, and M1200 monoblocks driving the NX-Otica MTMs.
-
I use a DODD battery powered preamp and a pair of ANK Mentor 300B mono blocks (Parallel SET so it's about 16w) and love the combination with the NX-Oticas. I use a MHDT Pagoda DAC (Tube and non oversampling), I use an adapter to allow me to use a 6922 tube which takes it to another level and would recommend to try if you are using that dac.
I also use a Neurochorme Modulus 286 amp I built and that sounds good with the DODD as well, just love the sound with 300B's give.
I don't listen to my system at above 80-85 decibels so I never feel that either amp is running out of jam.
-
I use a DODD battery powered preamp and a pair of ANK Mentor 300B mono blocks (Parallel SET so it's about 16w) and love the combination with the NX-Oticas. I use a MHDT Pagoda DAC (Tube and non oversampling), I use an adapter to allow me to use a 6922 tube which takes it to another level and would recommend to try if you are using that dac.
I also use a Neurochorme Modulus 286 amp I built and that sounds good with the DODD as well, just love the sound with 300B's give.
I don't listen to my system at above 80-85 decibels so I never feel that either amp is running out of jam.
I like how all your equipment is pretty much had made. Have you had other DAC's in the system how does yours compare if so?
-
I haven't tried any other DAC's with the NX-Otica's other than my Node 2i and I prefer the MHDT.
I'd like to try something like Denefrips Pontus as it is about the same price and see if the soundstage depth and width I get from my dac is the R2R dac or the help froth tube buffer. Just not in the cards right now.
-
Tubes all over here with my NX-Studios. MHDT Atlantis tube buffered dac (Mullard CV2493), Tubes4HiFi PH16 phono stage (GL 6922), and Jolida 202 integrated amp (GL 12AX7 preamp, Telefunken ECC803 driver, and usually GL KT77 power tubes but I just red-plated one last weekend so running backups until I splurge for new set).
-
Tubes all over here with my NX-Studios. MHDT Atlantis tube buffered dac (Mullard CV2493), Tubes4HiFi PH16 phono stage (GL 6922), and Jolida 202 integrated amp (GL 12AX7 preamp, Telefunken ECC803 driver, and usually GL KT77 power tubes but I just red-plated one last weekend so running backups until I splurge for new set).
I think the tubes are winning and you are the second with the MHDT DAC.
-
I think the tubes are winning and you are the second with the MHDT DAC.
I had some Schiit before BF2/64 and Modi MB, and the Bifrost2/64 was very detailed but a bit glassy and harsh with my speakers Ina near-midfield setup. Great with headphones though. But the MHDT was a lot more natural and 3 dimensional sound even if slightly less detailed. I have upgraded some of the parts inside and plan to do more later. Definitely good dac for tinkering (cap and resistor swaps, rca plugs, tube rolling, etc).
-
I had some Schiit before BF2/64 and Modi MB, and the Bifrost2/64 was very detailed but a bit glassy and harsh with my speakers Ina near-midfield setup. Great with headphones though. But the MHDT was a lot more natural and 3 dimensional sound even if slightly less detailed. I have upgraded some of the parts inside and plan to do more later. Definitely good dac for tinkering (cap and resistor swaps, rca plugs, tube rolling, etc).
There is a lot of Schiit around.
-
I am currently using DIY 300B PSET amps on my Line Forces. These are based on the ANK C-Core Interstage monoblock kits, but heavily modified. Driving these is a Denafrips Terminator Plus DAC through a DIY discrete FET line stage with a relay-switched attenuator. I was using these electronics with NX-Oticas before I passed these on to my son and got the Line Forces. These amps worked great on my NX-Oticas as well, but they definitely have more headroom on the Line Forces.
I'm using a DIY Purifi class D amp with Neurochrome input buffers on my NX-Studios, driven by an Aurilic Vega G2 DAC/Preamp.
I've also used the following amps on my NX-Oticas: Parasound JC5, Pass XA60.8 monoblocks, DIY Neurochrome Mod286 monoblocks, and DIY Purifi monoblocks with a huge linear power supply and tube input buffers. Of all the amps I've used, I like the 300B SET amps the best, but the Pass XA60.8s and the DIY Purifi monoblocks were pretty close.
-
I am currently using DIY 300B PSET amps on my Line Forces. These are based on the ANK C-Core Interstage monoblock kits, but heavily modified. Driving these is a Denafrips Terminator Plus DAC through a DIY discrete FET line stage with a relay-switched attenuator. I was using these electronics with NX-Oticas before I passed these on to my son and got the Line Forces. These amps worked great on my NX-Oticas as well, but they definitely have more headroom on the Line Forces.
I'm using a DIY Purifi class D amp with Neurochrome input buffers on my NX-Studios, driven by an Aurilic Vega G2 DAC/Preamp.
I've also used the following amps on my NX-Oticas: Parasound JC5, Pass XA60.8 monoblocks, DIY Neurochrome Mod286 monoblocks, and DIY Purifi monoblocks with a huge linear power supply and tube input buffers. Of all the amps I've used, I like the 300B SET amps the best, but the Pass XA60.8s and the DIY Purifi monoblocks were pretty close.
You have had a lot of nice equipment. Have you ever just ran straight solid state? How has your terminator compare to other DAC's in the past?
-
I should also point out that if I didn't have my PS Audio stuff, I would be perfectly happy going full SS with my DIY Hypex Nilai and preamp. I use that setup with the NX-Studios. The Nilai beats the Purifi IMO. The combo with the preamp is really good and they are going to be releasing a dac/streamer addon possibly this month for the preamp.
-
You have had a lot of nice equipment. Have you ever just ran straight solid state? How has your terminator compare to other DAC's in the past?
When I first built the NX-Oticas, I was using a Parasound JC2 preamp and JC5 amp. These are fairly nice products, but as I got into building my own gear, I found I liked my DIY builds better. The preamp I am currently using is still solid state, although I have a couple of tube preamps under construction.
When I first built the Purifi monoblocks, I was using the Neurochrome input buffers and only later replaced these with tube-based buffers. I also used my SS preamp with the Pass XA60.8 amps on the NX-Oticas, as well as the Neurochrome Mod286 monoblocks.
I've heard some exceptional solid state gear and I'm sure I could find SS equipment I'd be happy with. I will probably try to build more of my own in the next few years. In fact, I am currently building a pair of class A amps based on the new F5m design that Nelson Pass introduced at Burning Amp last year. I plan to use these to try out bi-amping my Line Forces with an active crossover.
The Terminator Plus is easily the best DAC I've owned, but not a huge difference over the original Terminator that I had before it. I haven't owned that many DACs, but over the past ten years, I've also used a Schitt Yggdrasil (which I still have in my workshop system), the Aurilic Vega G2 I have in my bedroom system, a Wyred4Sound DAC2, and a Levinson No 39 CD player (which I bought back in the late 90s).
The Terminator Plus has a very relaxed feel to it - very smooth yet detailed, with exceptional sound stage. I don't really have any complaints, and this is probably the last piece of gear that I would replace (except my Line Forces which are here to stay for good, at least until I have to downsize).
-
The Terminator Plus has a very relaxed feel to it - very smooth yet detailed, with exceptional sound stage. I don't really have any complaints, and this is probably the last piece of gear that I would replace (except my Line Forces which are here to stay for good, at least until I have to downsize).
I replaced my Terminator II with a Lampizator Golden Atlantic TRP. The T2 is ultra-precise and an exceptional DAC, but the Lampizator is more dynamic, has a bigger soundstage, and it's more musical. The T2 is the professional pianist who reads music, and the Lampi is the jazz musician who plays from the heart. If you prefer the sound of tube amps/preamps over solid-state, you'll get more of what you like with a decent tube DAC.
-
I replaced my Terminator II with a Lampizator Golden Atlantic TRP. The T2 is ultra-precise and an exceptional DAC, but the Lampizator is more dynamic, has a bigger soundstage, and it's more musical. The T2 is the professional pianist who reads music, and the Lampi is the jazz musician who plays from the heart. If you prefer the sound of tube amps/preamps over solid-state, you'll get more of what you like with a decent tube DAC.
I think if I was going to replace my Terminator Plus (and not build something myself), it would probably be a Lampizator DAC. I've really enjoyed the ones I've heard. The Lampizator Poseidon DAC I heard in the Songer room at CAF sounded sublime.
-
I just like hearing what people have and like.
I've owned a lot of tube stuff (still tube) and how found certain solid state that gets me the musicality I like from tubes, along with the bass impact / ease of use / lack of noise.
Tubes
Around 20 years ago I heard Joule Electra VZN OTL amps at the CES show with Merlin VSM speakers. I already owned the Merlin VSMs, and they were picky about gear... an aside... the reason WHY they are picky about gear is know to me now, and Danny is getting ready to fix it. So, the Joule VZN amps are just magic. OTL... the tube is connected to the driver. The midrange bloom is incredible. There was another feature... dialing in the amount of feedback. The magic happened with overall feedback was dial as low as possible. The other features of the amp is that is would heat a gymnasium, and starting it up as like firing up a steam driven locomotive... coal fired furnace and all. It doesn't have a "power switch", but a Variac... you turn a big dial to start applying current to the tubes and what the levels come up on the meter. It is an "enthusiast" thing... but again... MAGIC.
Here is my Joule Electra VZN-80 OTL amp with the hood off...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261256&size=large)
For front end I have (not in use) Joule LAP 150 preamp. Dual box unit, point to point wired... all tubes.
Joule Electra LAP150
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261260&size=large)
I have also played with some hybrid stuff, including an (unobtainable) Joule Electra VAMP integrated. Tube front end, Mosfet output. Point to point wired. Very little overall feedback... Damping Factor 13. Sounds so sweet!
Joule Electra VAMP
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261261&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261257&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261258&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261259&size=large)
Along the way, I'd played with various solid state stuff, CODA, Marantz, Krell... some other tube gear. Nothing remarkable about the solid state stuff (yet), and just because something had tubes in it was no guarantee it sounded good. Not like my Joule Electra stuff.
So... as my willingness and ability to put more money into stuff I wanted, I really started looking at "why" certain things I liked sounded better. And one thing I have hit on that has lead me to buy a particular set of gear is this:
Zero Global Negative Feedback
Year before last, I took a flyer on buying an Ayre Acoustics VX-5 Twenty amp. I had been reading a lot of the thoughts of Charlie Hansen, founder of Ayre. Charlie was a "tube guy", but he didn't like the hassle of tubes. His quest was to get the reliability of solid state and the magic of tubes. He started hitting on 2 things, and it's fundamental to Ayre gear:
- Zero Negative Feedback
- Fully Differentially Balanced
He became convinced that he'd just about gotten "there"...i.e., solid state reliability / ease of use with the musicality of tubes. Charlie was a very opinionated guy (he passed years ago from complications from a cycling accident). He couldn't explain exactly "Why" he thought the secret was in Zero Negative Feedback, but he thought it may have had to do with "Time Alignment" of the signal. "Timing being smeared". Now, where else have we heard commentary about "Timing and Smearing"? I believe Danny has hit on this?
So, finding that the Ayre VX-5 Twenty sounded "right" and "musical" to me, I then acquired an Ayre KX-5 Twenty preamp. Then an Ayre QB-9 Twenty DAC. Things got better and better. The KX-5 Twenty preamp is AWESOME. Everything I run is via balanced connections.
So, my current, preferred setup is this:
- Ayre QB-9 Twenty DAC
- Ayre KX-5 Twenty Preamp
- Ayre VX-5 Twenty Amp
I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT. The retail pricing on this stuff is up there... but I buy stuff "used and right". Remember, what something actually costs you is the difference between what you buy it for and what you sell it for. This financial strategy is fully "Audiophile Approved". (Plus, it's true - notwithstanding the opportunity costs of earning on the money). But this stuff adds enjoying to my life every day... put a number on that.
In fact, I've picked up some other Ayre gear that is "secret stuff"... "secret, really good stuff that doesn't cost a fortune".
1) AX-7e Integrated. It can be an integrated, but also has a "Pass Thru" function, so it can "just be an amp". Plus, with the way it's designed, the volume "wakes up" to make an adjustment, then "goes back to sleep". And, any inputs not being used are "put to sleep". So, it's SUPER quiet... as is all Ayre gear. $1,250 used. 60w/Ch 8ohms / 120wCh 4ohms. And... it "punches above its weight".
2) K5xe MP preamp. This is less than half price (used) of my KX-5 Twenty preamp. But is REALLY good. It is reference quality... ~$2100 used. This is a "classic" piece.
So, that's what I use and why I use it. The thing is, "Zero Negative Feedback" in solid state stuff is not common. I also happen to think that it's a big reason why a lot of other solid state gear sounds "pretty much the same". I wanted something different and designed differently, for a reason.
A thing about lack of negative feedback... it may not measure as well / it's harder to get it to measure well. So, if something doesn't measure as well when there isn't as much feedback being employed, why do it? Why even bother with it? Why argue with people are are convinced that "measurements are the only thing that matter and if you think otherwise, you are just kidding yourself". In other words, why argue with the crowd at ASR (I don't bother).
Well, the reason is, many people think gear with less global negative feedback SOUNDS BETTER. And I completely agree with that.
And here's the thing... even if it "doesn't sound better"... it doesn't matter. I think it DOES sound better... it is a visceral reaction. When something I hear is "right"... I just "know it's right". When something is missing... I quickly get bored with it... something is missing... this is boring me.
Some will say, but the measurements! You're just mentally kidding yourself! To that I would ask:
How do you know you're measuring the right thing? In fact, I think the full commitment to "measurement above all else" is actually not "the intellectual approach" to this (although certainly could be the arrogant approach). I think it is the less enlightened approach because it ignores the fact that of "the unknown unknowns..." How do you know you know everything about what is being measured, what is / isn't being account for? They don't.
Another issue with a lot of Feedback / High Damping factor... I have found it can sap the "magic" from the presentation. Some may think, "but isn't it a great idea to control the drivers with a lot of dampening factor?" Well, why isn't "Servo Control amp" an idea being pushed for Midrange / Tweeter drivers? I would suggest it's because it's not needed... I want the midrange to bloom. Yet, it can be argued to use it to control the higher moving mass of a heavier woofer cone. So, higher feedback / higher damping factor... can lead to a "thinner sound"... less feedback / lower damping factor... more "bloom", more "magic"... more like "tubes".
But here's another thing... I am not closed minded about my current approach. The guy who bought my Magnepan 3.7i INSISTED that I listen to a DAC he brought me when he picked up the speakers. He left it with me. It was a Gustard X16. Well, it was soft and lifeless... and when I looked it up on the ASR "Master List", it ranked as one of their top DACs. Go Figure. Measurements aren't everything, for me.
Another thing I am playing with... it's a piece of "studio" gear - RME ADI-2 DAC FS. REALLY COOL! It's a DAC, it's a Preamp, it's a 5 band PEQ. It's a ton of fun to play with and so versatile. I've got it in and out of "The Big Rig". I don't see it going anywhere because it's just so flexible (and I like how it sounds too). The one I have is a "pre fire" unit with AKM4493 DAC chip.
Another example of being "open to new things"... and something I am very interested in trying. Something that you may even like to try with your NX-Otica, given the sensitivity. Have a look at the upcoming Schiit Audio Aegir 2. Why? Well... Jason Stoddard is playing with the "controversial" topic of less negative feedback. The new Aegir 2 will have a Damping Factor of 10!. Output Impedance of .8ohm! (Damping Factor = 8ohm / Output Impedance) Find another solid state amp with that kind of low damping factor... for $899! As soon as it's available, I am ordering one. I want to try it... see if I like it... learn a bit more about "the path" I'm on. Here's my hunch about the Aegir 2... I think it is going to be crazy good. It will be 25w/ch into 8ohm, 50w/ch into 4ohm. They can be run as a pair of mono at 100w/ch. It just seams like a potentially very high sound quality option for the higher sensitivity NX speakers, for (relatively) very little money.
Another interesting thing about the topic of Negative Feedback / Schiit / Jason Stoddard. I shared quite a bit about this "zero negative feedback thing" on his forum thread... and he became VERY annoyed with me... saying that "it wasn't the one truth"... and then a few weeks later announced an amp in Aegir 2 that had the qualities I was touting!!! HA! In the description of the amp / negative feedback, he refers to it as "controversial" - which I found very odd. But I think I understand why he said that... it's because he has to "play the measurement game" and straddle the fence with the pitchfork measurement crowd over at ASR. But why would Jason Stoddard take this potential criticism on? Why deal with that potential hassle with the original Aegir is already said to sound pretty good. Well, he said it himself regarding Aegir 2 and it's key "Halo Feedback" feature:
"It sounds better." (Evidently something sounding better is "Controversial"). Imagine having to placate this stuff when trying to design gear that sounds better?
So, those are my brief thoughts on this matter. Hopefully it helps. :lol:
-
I've owned a lot of tube stuff (still tube) and how found certain solid state that gets me the musicality I like from tubes, along with the bass impact / ease of use / lack of noise.
Tubes
Around 20 years ago I heard Joule Electra VZN OTL amps at the CES show with Merlin VSM speakers. I already owned the Merlin VSMs, and they were picky about gear... an aside... the reason WHY they are picky about gear is know to me now, and Danny is getting ready to fix it. So, the Joule VZN amps are just magic. OTL... the tube is connected to the driver. The midrange bloom is incredible. There was another feature... dialing in the amount of feedback. The magic happened with overall feedback was dial as low as possible. The other features of the amp is that is would heat a gymnasium, and starting it up as like firing up a steam driven locomotive... coal fired furnace and all. It doesn't have a "power switch", but a Variac... you turn a big dial to start applying current to the tubes and what the levels come up on the meter. It is an "enthusiast" thing... but again... MAGIC.
Here is my Joule Electra VZN-80 OTL amp with the hood off...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261256&size=large)
For front end I have (not in use) Joule LAP 150 preamp. Dual box unit, point to point wired... all tubes.
Joule Electra LAP150
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261260&size=large)
I have also played with some hybrid stuff, including an (unobtainable) Joule Electra VAMP integrated. Tube front end, Mosfet output. Point to point wired. Very little overall feedback... Damping Factor 13. Sounds so sweet!
Joule Electra VAMP
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261261&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261257&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261258&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261259&size=large)
Along the way, I'd played with various solid state stuff, CODA, Marantz, Krell... some other tube gear. Nothing remarkable about the solid state stuff (yet), and just because something had tubes in it was no guarantee it sounded good. Not like my Joule Electra stuff.
So... as my willingness and ability to put more money into stuff I wanted, I really started looking at "why" certain things I liked sounded better. And one thing I have hit on that has lead me to buy a particular set of gear is this:
Zero Global Negative Feedback
Year before last, I took a flyer on buying an Ayre Acoustics VX-5 Twenty amp. I had been reading a lot of the thoughts of Charlie Hansen, founder of Ayre. Charlie was a "tube guy", but he didn't like the hassle of tubes. His quest was to get the reliability of solid state and the magic of tubes. He started hitting on 2 things, and it's fundamental to Ayre gear:
- Zero Negative Feedback
- Fully Differentially Balanced
He became convinced that he'd just about gotten "there"...i.e., solid state reliability / ease of use with the musicality of tubes. Charlie was a very opinionated guy (he passed years ago from complications from a cycling accident). He couldn't explain exactly "Why" he thought the secret was in Zero Negative Feedback, but he thought it may have had to do with "Time Alignment" of the signal. "Timing being smeared". Now, where else have we heard commentary about "Timing and Smearing"? I believe Danny has hit on this?
So, finding that the Ayre VX-5 Twenty sounded "right" and "musical" to me, I then acquired an Ayre KX-5 Twenty preamp. Then an Ayre QB-9 Twenty DAC. Things got better and better. The KX-5 Twenty preamp is AWESOME. Everything I run is via balanced connections.
So, my current, preferred setup is this:
- Ayre QB-9 Twenty DAC
- Ayre KX-5 Twenty Preamp
- Ayre VX-5 Twenty Amp
I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT. The retail pricing on this stuff is up there... but I buy stuff "used and right". Remember, what something actually costs you is the difference between what you buy it for and what you sell it for. This financial strategy is fully "Audiophile Approved". (Plus, it's true - notwithstanding the opportunity costs of earning on the money). But this stuff adds enjoying to my life every day... put a number on that.
In fact, I've picked up some other Ayre gear that is "secret stuff"... "secret, really good stuff that doesn't cost a fortune".
1) AX-7e Integrated. It can be an integrated, but also has a "Pass Thru" function, so it can "just be an amp". Plus, with the way it's designed, the volume "wakes up" to make an adjustment, then "goes back to sleep". And, any inputs not being used are "put to sleep". So, it's SUPER quiet... as is all Ayre gear. $1,250 used. 60w/Ch 8ohms / 120wCh 4ohms. And... it "punches above its weight".
2) K5xe MP preamp. This is less than half price (used) of my KX-5 Twenty preamp. But is REALLY good. It is reference quality... ~$2100 used. This is a "classic" piece.
So, that's what I use and why I use it. The thing is, "Zero Negative Feedback" in solid state stuff is not common. I also happen to think that it's a big reason why a lot of other solid state gear sounds "pretty much the same". I wanted something different and designed differently, for a reason.
A thing about lack of negative feedback... it may not measure as well / it's harder to get it to measure well. So, if something doesn't measure as well when there isn't as much feedback being employed, why do it? Why even bother with it? Why argue with people are are convinced that "measurements are the only thing that matter and if you think otherwise, you are just kidding yourself". In other words, why argue with the crowd at ASR (I don't bother).
Well, the reason is, many people think gear with less global negative feedback SOUNDS BETTER. And I completely agree with that.
And here's the thing... even if it "doesn't sound better"... it doesn't matter. I think it DOES sound better... it is a visceral reaction. When something I hear is "right"... I just "know it's right". When something is missing... I quickly get bored with it... something is missing... this is boring me.
Some will say, but the measurements! You're just mentally kidding yourself! To that I would ask:
How do you know you're measuring the right thing? In fact, I think the full commitment to "measurement above all else" is actually not "the intellectual approach" to this (although certainly could be the arrogant approach). I think it is the less enlightened approach because it ignores the fact that of "the unknown unknowns..." How do you know you know everything about what is being measured, what is / isn't being account for? They don't.
Another issue with a lot of Feedback / High Damping factor... I have found it can sap the "magic" from the presentation. Some may think, "but isn't it a great idea to control the drivers with a lot of dampening factor?" Well, why isn't "Servo Control amp" an idea being pushed for Midrange / Tweeter drivers? I would suggest it's because it's not needed... I want the midrange to bloom. Yet, it can be argued to use it to control the higher moving mass of a heavier woofer cone. So, higher feedback / higher damping factor... can lead to a "thinner sound"... less feedback / lower damping factor... more "bloom", more "magic"... more like "tubes".
But here's another thing... I am not closed minded about my current approach. The guy who bought my Magnepan 3.7i INSISTED that I listen to a DAC he brought me when he picked up the speakers. He left it with me. It was a Gustard X16. Well, it was soft and lifeless... and when I looked it up on the ASR "Master List", it ranked as one of their top DACs. Go Figure. Measurements aren't everything, for me.
Another thing I am playing with... it's a piece of "studio" gear - RME ADI-2 DAC FS. REALLY COOL! It's a DAC, it's a Preamp, it's a 5 band PEQ. It's a ton of fun to play with and so versatile. I've got it in and out of "The Big Rig". I don't see it going anywhere because it's just so flexible (and I like how it sounds too). The one I have is a "pre fire" unit with AKM4493 DAC chip.
Another example of being "open to new things"... and something I am very interested in trying. Something that you may even like to try with your NX-Otica, given the sensitivity. Have a look at the upcoming Schiit Audio Aegir 2. Why? Well... Jason Stoddard is playing with the "controversial" topic of less negative feedback. The new Aegir 2 will have a Damping Factor of 10!. Output Impedance of .8ohm! (Damping Factor = 8ohm / Output Impedance) Find another solid state amp with that kind of low damping factor... for $899! As soon as it's available, I am ordering one. I want to try it... see if I like it... learn a bit more about "the path" I'm on. Here's my hunch about the Aegir 2... I think it is going to be crazy good. It will be 25w/ch into 8ohm, 50w/ch into 4ohm. They can be run as a pair of mono at 100w/ch. It just seams like a potentially very high sound quality option for the higher sensitivity NX speakers, for (relatively) very little money.
Another interesting thing about the topic of Negative Feedback / Schiit / Jason Stoddard. I shared quite a bit about this "zero negative feedback thing" on his forum thread... and he became VERY annoyed with me... saying that "it wasn't the one truth"... and then a few weeks later announced an amp in Aegir 2 that had the qualities I was touting!!! HA! In the description of the amp / negative feedback, he refers to it as "controversial" - which I found very odd. But I think I understand why he said that... it's because he has to "play the measurement game" and straddle the fence with the pitchfork measurement crowd over at ASR. But why would Jason Stoddard take this potential criticism on? Why deal with that potential hassle with the original Aegir is already said to sound pretty good. Well, he said it himself regarding Aegir 2 and it's key "Halo Feedback" feature:
"It sounds better." (Evidently something sounding better is "Controversial"). Imagine having to placate this stuff when trying to design gear that sounds better?
So, those are my brief thoughts on this matter. Hopefully it helps. :lol:
I had to read this a few times to absorb. This is very interesting and something to think about. Reading the specs of an amplifier you would look at damping factor to determine negative feedback?
-
In my limited experiences, tube gear gives a more live or you’re there experience. Don’t know why, is it the extra distortion measurement geeks complain about. :icon_lol:
Note: This statement was from a certified “audiophool”
-
I had to read this a few times to absorb. This is very interesting and something to think about. Reading the specs of an amplifier you would look at damping factor to determine negative feedback?
That's what I've found. Yes. Damping Factor can be determined by looking at the Output Impedance of the amp. It's not common for that to be stated. It's very common for the INPUT impedance to be stated. You take 8ohms (that's the standard used) and divide it by the OUTPUT impedance. That gives you the Damping Factor. So, that new Schiit Aegir 2 amp... Jason Stoddard has noted specifically about this number, and stated it is .8ohm. So, 8ohm / .8ohm = 10 Damping Factor.
10 Damping Factor is NOT common... it is different... it is something worth trying. That's my point.
If someone keeps buying amps in different cases with different names on them and they're all pretty much designed the same way... is it any wonder people buy and sell gear all the time because they can't seem to find what sounds "Right"?
Here's the thing in my mind... what process does someone go thru to pick "Amplifier A" vs "Amplifier B". Is it what they read other people say about it (be careful). Is it the marketing? Or is a good way to do it, to look at whether it is fundamentally different in a relevant way compared to what they are already using?
For instance, if we look at an "AV Receiver"... I would just be looking for "Inputs / Outputs / Functionality". How a Denon vs Pioneer vs Yamaha vs whatever is going to sound... well, from that standpoint I think they are all pretty similar.
What I have found is that Zero Overall Negative Feedback actually correlates to a difference in sound. And for me, it's a very positive difference. It's just more "musical". I can't measure it. I can't prove it. Both things that some will point at as proof that I am kidding myself. Well, if I like the way an amp sounds because I put a Twinky on it, and I'm convinced the Twinky makes it sound better... well the friggin' Twinky is going on the amp! This is about MY enjoyment and what I like.
The truth is, the application of Negative Feedback is important. It's done to make stuff measure better... but, again, it begs the question... if measuring better is "always better" why does a company bother being committed to "Zero Negative Feedback"?
I suggest to all to seek out something "different" from what you already have as it relates to this specific measurement. I have found it's MAGIC, and a lightbulb goes off. Others who have heard stuff like this feel the same way.
-
There is a lot of Schiit around.
:lol:
-
I just like hearing what people have and like. I am building out my system as we speak. I have some NX-otica's that I am about complete in a few weeks. I had fredrick build my crossovers and speaker cables. He does a great job. Just picked up the crossovers wiring for the speakers and speaker wire at Danny's from being cryo'd. I have an SMC audio DNA.5 amplifier and ran it on Danny's system and it sounded really good. I was able to compare it to Danny's reference mono blocks and it held its own. SMC audio customizes all their equipment. Now I am going to pick up a DAC and some subs. It's kinda like eating an elephant.
SMC is great equipment. My suggestion is continue to use the SMC. Like others have said perhaps try a NOS R2R DAC from Denafrips or Lampizator. I would also suggest Audio-GD and Border Patrol DACs. The Border Patrol is very reasonably priced, uses Jupiter caps and has a EZ80 tube rectifier and choke input filtering to give you just enough of that tube quality.
-
That's what I've found. Yes. Damping Factor can be determined by looking at the Output Impedance of the amp. It's not common for that to be stated. It's very common for the INPUT impedance to be stated. You take 8ohms (that's the standard used) and divide it by the OUTPUT impedance. That gives you the Damping Factor. So, that new Schiit Aegir 2 amp... Jason Stoddard has noted specifically about this number, and stated it is .8ohm. So, 8ohm / .8ohm = 10 Damping Factor.
10 Damping Factor is NOT common... it is different... it is something worth trying. That's my point.
If someone keeps buying amps in different cases with different names on them and they're all pretty much designed the same way... is it any wonder people buy and sell gear all the time because they can't seem to find what sounds "Right"?
Here's the thing in my mind... what process does someone go thru to pick "Amplifier A" vs "Amplifier B". Is it what they read other people say about it (be careful). Is it the marketing? Or is a good way to do it, to look at whether it is fundamentally different in a relevant way compared to what they are already using?
For instance, if we look at an "AV Receiver"... I would just be looking for "Inputs / Outputs / Functionality". How a Denon vs Pioneer vs Yamaha vs whatever is going to sound... well, from that standpoint I think they are all pretty similar.
What I have found is that Zero Overall Negative Feedback actually correlates to a difference in sound. And for me, it's a very positive difference. It's just more "musical". I can't measure it. I can't prove it. Both things that some will point at as proof that I am kidding myself. Well, if I like the way an amp sounds because I put a Twinky on it, and I'm convinced the Twinky makes it sound better... well the friggin' Twinky is going on the amp! This is about MY enjoyment and what I like.
The truth is, the application of Negative Feedback is important. It's done to make stuff measure better... but, again, it begs the question... if measuring better is "always better" why does a company bother being committed to "Zero Negative Feedback"?
I suggest to all to seek out something "different" from what you already have as it relates to this specific measurement. I have found it's MAGIC, and a lightbulb goes off. Others who have heard stuff like this feel the same way.
What you are saying makes sense. What measures well doesn't necessarily make it sound better. I don't have a very good understanding about electronics although I am interested and I want to learn. Let me ask you this. I have heard and read that equipment that uses chokes in the power supply sound better. I know tube equipment uses chokes and some higher end solid state equipment use chokes. The guy that builds the mystique DACs says his sauce is based on Chokes and R2R chips but it isn't a tube DAC and they get great reviews from people comparing against several other DACs that aren't reviewers. Danny has said the Schiit Tyre amp sounded suprisingly good and it has chokes in the power supply. Do they affect the negative feedback in any way?
-
SMC is great equipment. My suggestion is continue to use the SMC. Like others have said perhaps try a NOS R2R DAC from Denafrips or Lampizator. I would also suggest Audio-GD and Border Patrol DACs. The Border Patrol is very reasonably priced, uses Jupiter caps and has a EZ80 tube rectifier and choke input filtering to give you just enough of that tube quality.
That is exactly what I was thinking. I am looking at all these DAC's including the Mojo Mystique. The reviews by individuals who have owned them are great. The used prices are just a hair out of price range but they are intriguing.
-
What you are saying makes sense. What measures well doesn't necessarily make it sound better. I don't have a very good understanding about electronics although I am interested and I want to learn. Let me ask you this. I have heard and read that equipment that uses chokes in the power supply sound better. I know tube equipment uses chokes and some higher end solid state equipment use chokes. The guy that builds the mystique DACs says his sauce is based on Chokes and R2R chips but it isn't a tube DAC and they get great reviews from people comparing against several other DACs that aren't reviewers. Danny has said the Schiit Tyre amp sounded suprisingly good and it has chokes in the power supply. Do they affect the negative feedback in any way?
Chokes, coupled with good capacitors, in the power supply do an excellent job of filtering out power supply noise and hum, including noise generated by the rectifier switching and transformer resonances. Most amplifiers do not use active regulation, so a power supply employing chokes can do a nice job cleaning up the signal.
SET amps have fairly poor power supply noise rejection, so good quality power supply filtering is key. Push pull amps, can cancel out a fair amount of the power supply noise, so it's a little less important here, but still helpful.
Global negative feedback will improve the power supply rejection, so is often used with lower cost amplifiers which can't afford the components necessary to do good quality filtering. Global negative feedback will also improve the amplifiers ability to maintain the correct output voltage under varying load conditions, lowering the output impedance and making the amplifier more of a voltage source instead of a current source.
But global negative feedback also introduces its own problems. This is mostly because it is much more effective at lower frequencies than higher frequencies, so it will reduce the lower order harmonics more than the higher order harmonics. This tends to make the amp sound brighter and harsher. This may sound like it is providing more detail, but it is primarily emphasizing the higher harmonics.
Low order harmonics (particularly second and third) do an excellent job of masking the higher order harmonics, so reducing their dominance will result in worse sound (in my opinion) but will also reduce the measured THD.
Many have attributed higher second and third order distortion to a more natural and spacious sound and a deeper sound stage. This is why so many audiophiles love their SET amps with no feedback (I'm one of them).
As noted above, the big downside of no global feedback with tube amps is the output impedance can be quite high (and thus low damping factor). This can make the bass sound bloated and sloppy, depending on the speakers used. Some people are ok with this, or even prefer it.
Personally, I think the best of both worlds is to use a zero-global-feedback SET amp for the upper bass on up and use an amp with a high damping factor for the lower bass.
It is possible to measure the effects of global negative feedback and it's influence on the distribution of harmonics. The best sounding amps, in my opinion, are those that have a steadily decreasing prominence of harmonics in the distortion profile (e.g. 2nd is higher than 3rd, 3rd is higher than 4th, etc.). But again, if the amplifiers damping factor is low, the speakers impedance vs frequency can greatly affect the tonal balance, and the bass is likely to be less well controlled.
-
Chokes, coupled with good capacitors, in the power supply do an excellent job of filtering out power supply noise and hum, including noise generated by the rectifier switching and transformer resonances. Most amplifiers do not use active regulation, so a power supply employing chokes can do a nice job cleaning up the signal.
SET amps have fairly poor power supply noise rejection, so good quality power supply filtering is key. Push pull amps, can cancel out a fair amount of the power supply noise, so it's a little less important here, but still helpful.
Global negative feedback will improve the power supply rejection, so is often used with lower cost amplifiers which can't afford the components necessary to do good quality filtering. Global negative feedback will also improve the amplifiers ability to maintain the correct output voltage under varying load conditions, lowering the output impedance and making the amplifier more of a voltage source instead of a current source.
But global negative feedback also introduces its own problems. This is mostly because it is much more effective at lower frequencies than higher frequencies, so it will reduce the lower order harmonics more than the higher order harmonics. This tends to make the amp sound brighter and harsher. This may sound like it is providing more detail, but it is primarily emphasizing the higher harmonics.
Low order harmonics (particularly second and third) do an excellent job of masking the higher order harmonics, so reducing their dominance will result in worse sound (in my opinion) but will also reduce the measured THD.
Many have attributed higher second and third order distortion to a more natural and spacious sound and a deeper sound stage. This is why so many audiophiles love their SET amps with no feedback (I'm one of them).
As noted above, the big downside of no global feedback with tube amps is the output impedance can be quite high (and thus low damping factor). This can make the bass sound bloated and sloppy, depending on the speakers used. Some people are ok with this, or even prefer it.
Personally, I think the best of both worlds is to use a zero-global-feedback SET amp for the upper bass on up and use an amp with a high damping factor for the lower bass.
It is possible to measure the effects of global negative feedback and it's influence on the distribution of harmonics. The best sounding amps, in my opinion, are those that have a steadily decreasing prominence of harmonics in the distortion profile (e.g. 2nd is higher than 3rd, 3rd is higher than 4th, etc.). But again, if the amplifiers damping factor is low, the speakers impedance vs frequency can greatly affect the tonal balance, and the bass is likely to be less well controlled.
Does an amplifier create negative feedback with op amps? I assume using a high pass filter with servo subs is a good idea with amps with no negative feedback.
-
Does an amplifier create negative feedback with op amps? I assume using a high pass filter with servo subs is a good idea with amps with no negative feedback.
An amplifier implements global negative feedback by taking the a portion of the output and feeding it into a point at the input that is the opposite phase as the output. If the amplifier is inverting, this can just be summing a portion of the output with the input. By portion, I mean that a resistor divider network that reduces the level of the output based on the amount of feedback desired.
Using feedback will reduce the effective overall gain of the amplifier. So if the "open-loop" gain of an amplifier is 30db, and 10db of negative feedback is applied, then this will reduce the output by 10db. So the amplifier must be designed to have higher open loop gain to compensate. Open loop gain refers to the gain of the amp without any feedback applied.
OpAmps are designed to almost always work with negative feedback. Opamps have very high open loop gain (typically 160db or even higher), but that gain falls rapidly with frequency. The only way to get flat response is to employ a significant amount of negative feedback. But this high open loop gain makes them very effective for use in filters since their response is determined by how the feedback network is constructed, so they are often used for crossovers, phono amplifiers, brick-wall filters in DACs, etc. The term "opamp" comes from Operational Amplifier because these were originally designed for use in analog computers.
Audio equipment employing modern opamps can sound quite good, but if you are going after a warmer sound with higher amounts of low-order harmonics, a discrete circuit (either tube or solid state) is probably a better choice. Although employing opamps for filters as part of the audio chain can be very effective.
If you are using a servo sub then using a high-pass filter before your main amp will reduce the amount of low frequency information it has to handle. But this will also cause phase shifts in the audio signal at frequencies well above the -3db point of the high-pass filter (particularly a simple first order filter). So it's a bit of a compromise. If you are worried about the main amplifier's headroom (i.e., your main speaker's sensitivity is such that you are ever likely to be pushing the amplifier to near clipping), then I think using a high-pass filter is a good idea. If you have plenty of power, it's a tougher call but still might be worth doing since it will reduce the excess power that your low-frequency driver (in your main speakers) must handle.
Also, keep in mind, that no analog filter is perfect. In addition to phase shifts, at a minimum you'll be passing the signal through another capacitor with its own imperfections.
-
What you are saying makes sense. What measures well doesn't necessarily make it sound better. I don't have a very good understanding about electronics although I am interested and I want to learn. Let me ask you this. I have heard and read that equipment that uses chokes in the power supply sound better. I know tube equipment uses chokes and some higher end solid state equipment use chokes. The guy that builds the mystique DACs says his sauce is based on Chokes and R2R chips but it isn't a tube DAC and they get great reviews from people comparing against several other DACs that aren't reviewers. Danny has said the Schiit Tyre amp sounded suprisingly good and it has chokes in the power supply. Do they affect the negative feedback in any way?
I know very little about electronics as well, but I'm not bad at connecting dots. I listen, then connect more dots. If I still had my Magnepan 3.7i speakers, I wouldn't hesitate to try the Tyr amps. In fact, I almost did. The choke input helps with dynamics as it's an extra transformer, instead of power supply caps. It's an "old school" way of doing it, and more costly. I would not buy Tyr amps for use with NX-Otica or NX-Treme.
I am going to buy an Aegir 2 when it's released, and I don't need it. I think it's very different and I want to try it. If I had a pair of NX-Otica and were starting from scratch, I would buy one of those and let the subs take care of themselves. If I liked the Aegir 2 sound quality (which is the ONLY reason I am buying one... I think it's going to be excellent) and wanted more power, I'd buy a second one and run them as mono blocks. 100w/ch into NX-Otica would be good enough for most people. If I still wanted more power, I would sell the NX-Otica, buy The Bully, Tyr, and admit to myself that I want an AC/DC concert in my living room.
Actually, you still wouldn't need to buy Tyr amps with The Bully... you've still got the high sensitivity advantage and just running the MTM, and you've got a servo sub built in. :green:
I'm drifting away from speakers that "need" a bunch of power to drive them. I don't listen at high levels... but the stuff I have right now will still JAM and put on a show...
-
Brandon,
I am not nearly as advanced as the majority of the extremely helpful members, but I like the DIY Audio amps. So far I like both the F3 and the Aleph J amps in the process of building an M2X. I also use the Schiit Vidar (a nice amp). I like what the Aleph J does to the sound overall currently. It has a good soundstage with loads of imo accurate detail. My pre is the Schiit Freya + and my DAC is the Denafreps Aries.
Thank you for asking this question, I am learning for everyone’s responses.
Kelly
-
Thank you for asking this question, I am learning for everyone’s responses.
This forum is great. I've learned more on this thread in 3 days than 3 months of frequenting the other forums. :popcorn: This topic and the fine print details that make the differences in components are really super interesting to read about. I haven't heard every type of amp listed here but with reading through this thread and knowing where I have liked my system's sound qualities changing over time, it makes for very useful info on making educated decisions on future purchases.
Now I did have a question since negative feedback is such a big part of this discussion. If an amp currently employed some db of negative feedback, could it be modified to be less or none at all without having a Chernobyl meltdown? I guess that's probably an amp specific try it and 🤞 situation though.
-
This forum is great. I've learned more on this thread in 3 days than 3 months of frequenting the other forums. :popcorn: This topic and the fine print details that make the differences in components are really super interesting to read about. I haven't heard every type of amp listed here but with reading through this thread and knowing where I have liked my system's sound qualities changing over time, it makes for very useful info on making educated decisions on future purchases.
Now I did have a question since negative feedback is such a big part of this discussion. If an amp currently employed some db of negative feedback, could it be modified to be less or none at all without having a Chernobyl meltdown? I guess that's probably an amp specific try it and 🤞 situation though.
A lot of amplifiers, particularly direct couple solid state amps, rely on global negative feedback to achieve stability and maintain the DC operating point. You might be able to get away with it on a tube amp with an output transformer, but even in this case you should be careful. Unless you really understand how the amplifier works, I would strongly discourage this. You could do serious damage to your speakers.
-
Brandon,
I am not nearly as advanced as the majority of the extremely helpful members, but I like the DIY Audio amps. So far I like both the F3 and the Aleph J amps in the process of building an M2X. I also use the Schiit Vidar (a nice amp). I like what the Aleph J does to the sound overall currently. It has a good soundstage with loads of imo accurate detail. My pre is the Schiit Freya + and my DAC is the Denafreps Aries.
Thank you for asking this question, I am learning for everyone’s responses.
Kelly
I know Tyson is a big fan of the Aleph J and I have heard great things about it. I too am attracted to the DIY and boutique market. I am learning a bunch from this thread, just wish I had a stronger background in electronics.
-
I know Tyson is a big fan of the Aleph J and I have heard great things about it. I too am attracted to the DIY and boutique market. I am learning a bunch from this thread, just wish I had a stronger background in electronics.
The AlephJ is definitely up there in sound quality for SS amps.
-
Nelson Pass introduced a new design variant of the F5 at Burning Amp last year. He calls it the F5m, I think the m standing for "minimum cost" or something like that. It is a very simple circuit that is more second harmonic prominent, and has no capacitors in the circuit. Here's the schematic of the basic circuit.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261304)
There will be a kit available on diyaudiostore.com, expected in the next week. This would be a great design to start with.
I am working on a build based on this design, using my own custom PCBs. My design adds some additional features including a DC Servo circuit, an optically coupled speaker protection circuit, and a balanced input. I'm building two stereo amps to try biamping my Line Forces.
-
I know Tyson is a big fan of the Aleph J and I have heard great things about it. I too am attracted to the DIY and boutique market. I am learning a bunch from this thread, just wish I had a stronger background in electronics.
Look for them on the used market and you can find some really good deals on the Aleph J.
-
I know very little about electronics as well, but I'm not bad at connecting dots. I listen, then connect more dots. If I still had my Magnepan 3.7i speakers, I wouldn't hesitate to try the Tyr amps. In fact, I almost did. The choke input helps with dynamics as it's an extra transformer, instead of power supply caps. It's an "old school" way of doing it, and more costly. I would not buy Tyr amps for use with NX-Otica or NX-Treme.
I am going to buy an Aegir 2 when it's released, and I don't need it. I think it's very different and I want to try it. If I had a pair of NX-Otica and were starting from scratch, I would buy one of those and let the subs take care of themselves. If I liked the Aegir 2 sound quality (which is the ONLY reason I am buying one... I think it's going to be excellent) and wanted more power, I'd buy a second one and run them as mono blocks. 100w/ch into NX-Otica would be good enough for most people. If I still wanted more power, I would sell the NX-Otica, buy The Bully, Tyr, and admit to myself that I want an AC/DC concert in my living room.
Actually, you still wouldn't need to buy Tyr amps with The Bully... you've still got the high sensitivity advantage and just running the MTM, and you've got a servo sub built in. :green:
I'm drifting away from speakers that "need" a bunch of power to drive them. I don't listen at high levels... but the stuff I have right now will still JAM and put on a show...
I went back last night and found the Schiit YouTube talking about the Aegir2. They seem pretty excited about this new amp and at that price it is really affordable. A set of those amps with the Rhythmic open baffles subs on the NX-otica's looks pretty good. Do you think that your Ayre equipment sound similar to the tubes you like?
-
Nelson Pass introduced a new design variant of the F5 at Burning Amp last year. He calls it the F5m, I think the m standing for "minimum cost" or something like that. It is a very simple circuit that is more second harmonic prominent, and has no capacitors in the circuit. Here's the schematic of the basic circuit.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261304)
There will be a kit available on diyaudiostore.com, expected in the next week. This would be a great design to start with.
I am working on a build based on this design, using my own custom PCBs. My design adds some additional features including a DC Servo circuit, an optically coupled speaker protection circuit, and a balanced input. I'm building two stereo amps to try biamping my Line Forces.
I have to ask. Do you have a background in electronics/electrical engineering?
-
Nelson Pass introduced a new design variant of the F5 at Burning Amp last year. He calls it the F5m, I think the m standing for "minimum cost" or something like that. It is a very simple circuit that is more second harmonic prominent, and has no capacitors in the circuit. Here's the schematic of the basic circuit.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261304)
There will be a kit available on diyaudiostore.com, expected in the next week. This would be a great design to start with.
I am working on a build based on this design, using my own custom PCBs. My design adds some additional features including a DC Servo circuit, an optically coupled speaker protection circuit, and a balanced input. I'm building two stereo amps to try biamping my Line Forces.
If yours works out, will you consider selling the PCBs?
-
I have to ask. Do you have a background in electronics/electrical engineering?
I am an EE, but spent my early career doing digital electronics (mostly computer graphics and super computers), then senior management. For the last 20 years, I've run a cycling ecommerce business and written a crap load of software for public facing websites and back-end business management.
I did a little analog circuit design in college and my first job back in the late 70s, but it's only been the last several years that I've gotten back into building audio gear and doing some of my own design work.
-
If yours works out, will you consider selling the PCBs?
I don't think I want to sell PCBs, but I'd be happy to provide the gerber files so you can order your own. My boards are four layer with a full ground plane, so they are a bit more expensive. With the options I used - 2oz copper for all layers, 1.6mm PCB thickness, HASL surface finish, they cost about $100 for five boards from JLCPCB.
With the additional features I added, this design will be a bit more expensive than the base design that will be offered by the diyaudiostore, particularly if you populate the Jensen transformer for balanced operation.
-
I am an EE, but spent my early career doing digital electronics (mostly computer graphics and super computers), then senior management. For the last 20 years, I've run a cycling ecommerce business and written a crap load of software for public facing websites and back-end business management.
I did a little analog circuit design in college and my first job back in the late 70s, but it's only been the last several years that I've gotten back into building audio gear and doing some of my own design work.
That makes sense. If I could go back again EE would be the path I would probably take. Interesting you have a biking website. I am what you call a Clydesdale 6'4 260. I purchased a Specialized Roubaix about 5 years ago. I love biking but the seasons here go from very cold and windy to very hot quickly.
-
That makes sense. If I could go back again EE would be the path I would probably take. Interesting you have a biking website. I am what you call a Clydesdale 6'4 260. I purchased a Specialized Roubaix about 5 years ago. I love biking but the seasons here go from very cold and windy to very hot quickly.
I'm not exactly a lightweight, as you can see from my avatar image (riding up Mt. Ventoux), but not as tall as you.
-
I'm not exactly a lightweight, as you can see from my avatar image (riding up Mt. Ventoux), but not as tall as you.
Funny story. I have a friend who biked most of his adult life. Was hit and ran over by a car while riding and lived. Said he had a friend when he was younger that bought a bike and road ten miles or so mostly down hill. He turned around and came back uphill. When he got home he never got back on the bike again and sold it. That was the funniest biking story I had heard especially if you are a big guy.
-
I am an EE, but spent my early career doing digital electronics (mostly computer graphics and super computers), then senior management. For the last 20 years, I've run a cycling ecommerce business and written a crap load of software for public facing websites and back-end business management.
I just started getting into Kubernetes clustering which is making my 20 years of IT engineering experience obsolete.
-
I love my bike!
Lake Apopka Wildlife Drive is 10mins from the house. 50+ miles of gravel. Gators EVERYWHERE...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261305&size=xlarge)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261307)
I even found a nice kickstand for the bike at the track! Ha!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261306&size=xlarge)
-
Personally, I think the best of both worlds is to use a zero-global-feedback SET amp for the upper bass on up and use an amp with a high damping factor for the lower bass.
I 100% agree. And my additional preference is to play with 2-way speakers (coherent, proper tool for their job) blended with subs (proper tool for its job) for similar reasons. However, the scale and presentation of larger speakers can be fun too, as long as you can do something about tuning the bass.
-
I don't think I want to sell PCBs, but I'd be happy to provide the gerber files so you can order your own. My boards are four layer with a full ground plane, so they are a bit more expensive. With the options I used - 2oz copper for all layers, 1.6mm PCB thickness, HASL surface finish, they cost about $100 for five boards from JLCPCB.
With the additional features I added, this design will be a bit more expensive than the base design that will be offered by the diyaudiostore, particularly if you populate the Jensen transformer for balanced operation.
Thank you for sharing this about that new First Watt amp! I'd be interested in the boards you're working on, especially if they add balanced connection.
For those interested, here is a link to a pdf about the amp: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/attachments/f5m-diy-amplifier-pdf.1264396/
So, this is another example of how I keep going down the path I like, and keep putting dots together. In that thread, Nelson Pass mentions the Damping Factor of that amp being 50. When he is asked about the sound of the amp, he mentions this. So, I see things like Damping Factor of 50 (lower than MANY amps), and I see comments like this about the sound. So, if you like something that sounds like this, perhaps it's a good idea to look for that. Then, get something that fits that description, listen to it, and if you like it... you keep going.
That's the path I'm on, and I've yet to find a reason why I'm on the wrong path, for me. It seems Nelson Pass and I agree.
And for this amp, there are specific reasons for "why", e.g., Damping Factor. If someone has a piece of gear and you're not sure why you own it, why it's better than something else for your tastes... maybe you should eyeball it and figure out the "why".
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261309&size=xlarge)
-
I am not a fan of the original F5. It was the worst sounding of all the First Watt amps I'd heard. It was as close to a Bryston type sound that Nelson ever got.
-
Do preamps have a damping factor or negative feedback? My layman's mind thinks that a line stage would not have much if any.
-
I love my bike!
Lake Apopka Wildlife Drive is 10mins from the house. 50+ miles of gravel. Gators EVERYWHERE...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261305&size=xlarge)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261307)
I even found a nice kickstand for the bike at the track! Ha!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261306&size=xlarge)
You have all the bases covered on fun stuff!
-
For future amp DIYers, the nice thing about the Aleph J kit from DIY Audio Store is that they make it easy for someone new to DIY. The amp is not hard to build. And their universal chassis already has all the holes drilled and tapped for the PCBs. The other thing about it is that it's extremely reliable. The chances of it blowing up are slim compared to many chip amps.
-
I am not a fan of the original F5. It was the worst sounding of all the First Watt amps I'd heard. It was as close to a Bryston type sound that Nelson ever got.
Yeah, I wasn't that happy with the original F5 sound. This design seems to have a different distortion spectrum so I'm hoping it sounds more to my liking.
-
I went back last night and found the Schiit YouTube talking about the Aegir2. They seem pretty excited about this new amp and at that price it is really affordable. A set of those amps with the Rhythmic open baffles subs on the NX-otica's looks pretty good. Do you think that your Ayre equipment sound similar to the tubes you like?
I guess I could answer this in different ways, but I'll say this - if I were starting from scratch, I would buy my Ayre gear to begin with. It's the best solid state I've ever heard. I have owned and spent a lot of time with:
-Conrad Johnson (tubes)
-Krell
-Coda
-Threshold
-Pass Labs - including Class A mono blocks
-Marantz
-Joule Electra (tubes)
-Yamaha
-Mark Levinson
-Odyssey
-Aesthetix
My Ayre equipment, in my opinion, is more musically satisfying than any of those listed. Others may have different opinions / experiences. The circuit design is unique... "Diamond Circuit" based on an old design. I think one other manufacturer uses the Diamond circuit - darTZeel. Looking at one of their amps... Damping Factor = 25. So, another clue.
It makes my Ayre stuff seem cheap: https://dartzeel.com/nhb-108-model-two/
-
Do preamps have a damping factor or negative feedback? My layman's mind thinks that a line stage would not have much if any.
Virtually all solid state preamps use negative feedback. Many tube preamps do as well, but not all. For example, the new Raven preamp developed by Lynn Olson and Don Sachs that will be built and sold by Spatial Audio does not use any global negative feedback.
I have a BAT preamp that I am working on fixing (bought a broken one that the previous owner didn't want to deal with) that doesn't have negative feedback either.
I am also working on building a couple new preamps - one completely of my own design and another that is based on the Vacuum State RTP-3D - that don't use any negative feedback.
So they do exist.
Damping factor is a term used to describe how well an amplifier can handle varying reactive load impedance. This is generally not an issue for a preamp (unless, perhaps, it is also designed as a headphone amp). It's actually defined as the ratio of the load impedance to the amplifiers output impedance. Generally, the load impedance a preamp sees is fairly high (10K or more), so the damping factor will generally be a large value.
-
My Ayre equipment, in my opinion, is more musically satisfying than any of those listed. Others may have different opinions / experiences. The circuit design is unique... "Diamond Circuit" based on an old design. I think one other manufacturer uses the Diamond circuit - darTZeel. Looking at one of their amps... Damping Factor = 25. So, another clue.
About 10 years ago, I had an Audio GD amp with a diamond circuit: http://audio-gd.com/Pro/amp/SA300SE/SA300SEEN.htm
-
About 10 years ago, I had an Audio GD amp with a diamond circuit: http://audio-gd.com/Pro/amp/SA300SE/SA300SEEN.htm
Interesting. How did you like it?
On some of their latest stuff, Ayre calls it "Double Diamond" for the circuit. The "Twenty" series products / upgrades for Ayre gear mention better bass / dynamics. When I got by VX-5 Twenty it definitely had better dynamics than what I was using before.
Here is a video where Ariel Brown at Ayre talks about the Diamond Circuit: https://youtu.be/hJQeFcunY0Q?si=VBN-P1HL3tMLfs6o
For anyone interested in hearing a designer talk about their product... lookup "Pints with Ayre" on YouTube. They started a series a while back where they are going thru each product, from the first up thru most recent. They are getting closer to the current products now with each video. Also, there are videos about "Feedback" and "Balanced" and other core philosophies / things they like in design. They've had some interesting conversations with Angela Cardas, John Atkinson from Stereophile, etc. They talk to Atkinson about "Measurement". They have a conversation with a guy from ESS about DAC chips. Varied stuff.
What I didn't realize is how much Ariel Brown is and was actually "The Guy" for designing their stuff, for at least the last decade or so. When Charlie passed in 2017, I think a lot of people didn't realize that Ariel Brown was already driving development / doing circuit layout. When you listen to him talk about things... you can tell he has a VERY LARGE BRAIN.
Ayre is a small outfit... I like those guys. It's similar to Danny / GR... there's only a few people and you can call and talk to them - and they are very serious about the details / making great stuff. And when I find something I like, I stick with it... until I find something better.
Here is the video series. Obviously it's of interest for the Ayre stuff, but it could be of interest to anyone thinking thru "gear" in general. And maybe help think thru this exact conversation... "tubes vs solid state". Also, if you like craft beer... :thumb:
https://www.youtube.com/@AyreAcoustics/videos
Yes, I'm a fanboy for Ayre gear. I also love my wife. It is what it is... :green:
-
Interesting. How did you like it?
I dunno. That was a decade ago, so in audiophile years, that's like it happened in the 1960's. I don't recall how many amps I've owned since then. I haven't run across any gear yet that I regret selling.
-
You have all the bases covered on fun stuff!
I have 3 main objectives in Life:
1) Take care of my wife
2) Spread Joy
3) Have Fun
At the racetrack, I have helped thousands of people create lifetime memories. Literally. You'll never forget riding in a race car...
-
I have 3 main objectives in Life:
1) Take care of my wife
2) Spread Joy
3) Have Fun
At the racetrack, I have helped thousands of people create lifetime memories. Literally. You'll never forget riding in a race car...
Great objectives.
My wife and I took a 3-day race car driving course at PIR in Portland a number of years ago. Had a blast and it definitely improved my driving skills on the road. I've never raced head-to-head, but have done a couple dozen track days over the past few decades. Lots of fun!
Both my kids took the skid car class when they were first learning to drive. It helped my daughter avoid an accident when a truck jack-knifed in front of her.
-
In case anyone is interested, here is the design I am building for the F5m boards. I ended up doing a new PCB because the footprint I used for one of the relays was incorrect (one of these days, I will learn my lesson to not trust the community-provided footprints :duh:).
I took the opportunity to make a few improvements to my initial design. I beefed up the terminal block connectors for the main power and speaker connectors, changed the op-amp to a single (instead of a dual) that has a bit lower offset current, and I added a couple protection diodes on the input of the op-amp to make sure the input never gets too large (which could be an issue during power on and off).
The design assumes a main power supply that is roughly +/- 24V. It also uses a second 12v power supply for the DC protection circuit and for switching the input relay to balanced. I plan to use a small AC/DC converter module connected to the main power switch. This will turn on and (more importantly) off much faster than the main supply, so that the outputs will be disconnected immediately on power off.
A switch on the back panel will connect the 12V supply to the input selector relay to select balanced inputs.
I am still going to finish building the rev1 board to test out all the circuits before I send this version out for fab.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261371)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261372)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261373)
-
Cool! I peeked at the DIY Store to see if the kit had been posted yet...
-
Cool! I peaked at the DIY Store to see if the kit had been posted yet...
I seen some of the aegir 2 info from Schiit on their YouTube channel. Do you feel that your Are equipment sounds close to tubes? I am building my NX-otica's and I have a really good sounding SMc audio A/B amp but I feel like I will probably need a tube preamp. I tried to find out the output impedance on my amp but wasn't successful. Oh by the way I was checking out your work website and curious approximately a day at the track cost with a car?
-
This amp might be worthy of consideration on a tighter budget.
https://www.galion-audio.com/pages/ts-a75
-
This amp might be worthy of consideration on a tighter budget.
https://www.galion-audio.com/pages/ts-a75
Interesting I didn't know Gallion came out with a solid state amp.
-
I seen some of the aegir 2 info from Schiit on their YouTube channel. Do you feel that your Are equipment sounds close to tubes? I am building my NX-otica's and I have a really good sounding SMc audio A/B amp but I feel like I will probably need a tube preamp. I tried to find out the output impedance on my amp but wasn't successful.
I guess I would answer this by saying "yes, it sounds close to tubes"... but here's the thing, having something that "sounds like tubes" isn't the ultimate goal, for me. What I want, is stuff that is completely musically satisfying. Completely fatigue free. I want to be able to listen to it for hours on end and it sound "right". When things don't sound "right" to me, I know it very quickly. Something is "off" and it makes me not want to listen. Tubes are a really good way of getting to that goal, which many people have. I would say that my Ayre gear provides that experience, but it's not the only way to get there. What I'm sharing about feedback / damping factor is because I think those are key traits that impact why the Ayre (and other) gear delivers that experience, for me. I could be giving you bad advice. This is what works for me. What I'm suggesting is to try something like what I have, to see whether you like it. The Aegir 2 "may" be a way of sampling what I'm talking about, without a big commitment. And, it could end up even being the best choice... you never know.
I don't feel like I "need" a tube preamp. My Ayre KX-5 Twenty preamp may even be "better" than the amp. In fact, I think Ariel Brown (and maybe others) think that preamp could be the most important piece of all. I've been playing with DACs lately, some that can drive the amp with its own volume control. Right now one of them is the RME ADI-2 DAC FS (It's a really impressive piece for everything it does). See the pic I posted of the Remote interface that works on iPad / Computer. PEQ, different digital filters, presets, etc, etc. etc. It goes on and on. I've never used a more flexible device. And, it also happens to sound really good! However, I may have found taking my Ayre preamp out of the chain was a step backwards in "musicality". I can't measure it... I still have some "back and forth swapping" to do - and that's fun. If I didn't already have the Ayre preamp, I would be happy and I'm sure I could just "tune it" to exactly what I wanted. In fact, I'm playing with some of the now. The RME unit is WAAAY different than any of my Ayre gear... but I'm still playing with it. I'm having fun with all of this stuff.
If I had a pair of NX-Otica, and I were starting from scratch... I would try this:
- Used RME ADI-2 DAC FS
- Schiit Aegir 2
That is a super simple setup that I have a hunch would sound incredible. If you don't like either or both of those units, you can sell them without getting hurt.
Whenever you can, buy gear used. Setup a login on hifishark.com to look for gear for sale, get alerts, check pricing for what gear sells for. If you buy stuff right, you'll be able to use it for "free" and have fun / learn along the way.
Oh by the way I was checking out your work website and curious approximately a day at the track cost with a car?
That's not my "job", but I'm on a racetrack ~30 days per year, so it's pretty close! "How much?" can vary by event, but when all is said and done, it's at least $500/day - maybe a little more. You'll see the fee for different events, but then there's fuel, tires (wear), brake pads (wear), hotel?, food, etc.
"Everyone" should do it, at least once. It's a guaranteed lifetime memory.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261444&size=xlarge)
-
The ANK DAC's look very interesting.
Just got this bad boy up and running. Took me 30 seconds to decide that I’m selling all my other DACs.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261579)
-
Just got this bad boy up and running. Took me 30 seconds to decide that I’m selling all my other DACs.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261579)
What other DAC's have you had?
-
What other DAC's have you had?
Oh boy, here we go. Holo Spring 3, Gustard r26, Gustard A26, Matrix element X, SMSL VMV D1se, Topping E70, E50, Geshelli J2 AK4499/4493/ess. Emotiva XDA3, Cambridge 851N/CXN v1.
-
Oh boy, here we go. Holo Spring 3, Gustard r26, Gustard A26, Matrix element X, SMSL VMV D1se, Topping E70, E50, Geshelli J2 AK4499/4493/ess. Emotiva XDA3, Cambridge 851N/CXN v1.
That is a strong statement. There are some nice DAC's in that list.
-
Just got this bad boy up and running. Took me 30 seconds to decide that I’m selling all my other DACs.
Not surprising. A well-implemented tube component makes music sound musical.
-
That is a strong statement. There are some nice DAC's in that list.
All those DACs are more detailed than the ANK, but the ANK has a natural texture that I simply like.
-
All those DACs are more detailed than the ANK, but the ANK has a natural texture that I simply like.
Although, I am using the stock tubes which are just EH6922. I am sure once I have a couple hundred hours on it and swap out the stock tubes for some better 6922 line tubes, the detail will improve a lot.
-
All those DACs are more detailed than the ANK, but the ANK has a natural texture that I simply like.
Have you ever listened to the Border patrol SE-1. They seem like they might be similar.
-
Have you ever listened to the Border patrol SE-1. They seem like they might be similar.
The Border Patrol DAC has a nice smooth sound with a laid-back presentation. It doesn't have the detail of higher-end DACs but is non-fatiguing and easy to listen to. It depends on what you are looking for. For me, the Border Patrol was too laid back.
I would imagine that the ANK DACs, particularly the upper models, would have the smoothness of the Border Patrol, but hopefully with more detail, sharper image focus, and a deeper/wider soundstage.
For the price, the Border Patrol is worth considering if you are looking for that kind of sound. Personally, I'd choose one of the Denafrips, Holo, or Schitt DACs in the same price range. But I like a more forward presentation and more detail than the Border Patrol offers.
-
Have you ever listened to the Border patrol SE-1. They seem like they might be similar.
I don’t have any experience with the Border patrol. Looking at the inside of it, I doubt it’s on the same level as the ANK. The parts in the ANK are about the best you can get.
The Border Patrol DAC has a nice smooth sound with a laid-back presentation. It doesn't have the detail of higher-end DACs but is non-fatiguing and easy to listen to. It depends on what you are looking for. For me, the Border Patrol was too laid back.
I would imagine that the ANK DACs, particularly the upper models, would have the smoothness of the Border Patrol, but hopefully with more detail, sharper image focus, and a deeper/wider soundstage.
The ANK I have is still well detailed, with a really good image focus. I still need to get about 100 more hrs on it to see how it turns out. So far I like it a lot. It’s making me want to build the 5.1 which I’m sure will be a significant upgrade.
-
I don’t have any experience with the Border patrol. Looking at the inside of it, I doubt it’s on the same level as the ANK. The parts in the ANK are about the best you can get. The ANK I have is still well detailed, with a really good image focus. I still need to get about 100 more hrs on it to see how it turns out. So far I like it a lot. It’s making me want to build the 5.1 which I’m sure will be a significant upgrade.
Because of your post I actually called ANK today and asked about the different models. They said going up in models wasn't necessarily an upgrade. He said if you listen to classic rock like LedZepplin etc stick with the 2.1 it is more forgiving and sounds great. If you like classical really dynamic stuff etc go for the higher models. I tend to like soundstage, voice, piano and acoustical stuff. I also like rock from the 70s 80s early 90s. He also said the person who builds the DAC's for him has a 5.1 and a 2.1 and he listens to the 2.1.
-
Right now, I have the following DACs under the roof... on purpose. I'm figuring out what I want. I've been swapping units in and out... and the results have been surprising. Prices range from $143 used to $4850 new. All but 1 was bought used and I can still return the new one... so it's been a pretty good test without too much risk.
I haven't finished swapping them in and out but I've formed pretty clear opinions about this and I'm pretty sure of exactly what I'm going to do. Sure enough that I'm actively looking for one.
- RME ADI-2 DAC FS (AKM4493)
- TEAC UD-505 (AKM4497)
- Schiit Audio Modius (AKM4493)
- Schiit Audio Yggradrasil+ GS2 (Multibit)
- Schiit Modi Multibit
- Schiit Bifrost 2/64 (Multibit)
- Ayre Acoustics QB-9 Twenty (ES9038Q2M)
-
When I first built the NX-Oticas, I was using a Parasound JC2 preamp and JC5 amp. These are fairly nice products, but as I got into building my own gear, I found I liked my DIY builds better. The preamp I am currently using is still solid state, although I have a couple of tube preamps under construction.
When I first built the Purifi monoblocks, I was using the Neurochrome input buffers and only later replaced these with tube-based buffers. I also used my SS preamp with the Pass XA60.8 amps on the NX-Oticas, as well as the Neurochrome Mod286 monoblocks.
I've heard some exceptional solid state gear and I'm sure I could find SS equipment I'd be happy with. I will probably try to build more of my own in the next few years. In fact, I am currently building a pair of class A amps based on the new F5m design that Nelson Pass introduced at Burning Amp last year. I plan to use these to try out bi-amping my Line Forces with an active crossover.
The Terminator Plus is easily the best DAC I've owned, but not a huge difference over the original Terminator that I had before it. I haven't owned that many DACs, but over the past ten years, I've also used a Schitt Yggdrasil (which I still have in my workshop system), the Aurilic Vega G2 I have in my bedroom system, a Wyred4Sound DAC2, and a Levinson No 39 CD player (which I bought back in the late 90s).
The Terminator Plus has a very relaxed feel to it - very smooth yet detailed, with exceptional sound stage. I don't really have any complaints, and this is probably the last piece of gear that I would replace (except my Line Forces which are here to stay for good, at least until I have to downsize).
Nice job!
-
Right now, I have the following DACs under the roof... on purpose. I'm figuring out what I want. I've been swapping units in and out... and the results have been surprising. Prices range from $143 used to $4850 new. All but 1 was bought used and I can still return the new one... so it's been a pretty good test without too much risk.
I haven't finished swapping them in and out but I've formed pretty clear opinions about this and I'm pretty sure of exactly what I'm going to do. Sure enough that I'm actively looking for one.
- RME ADI-2 DAC FS (AKM4493)
- TEAC UD-505 (AKM4497)
- Schiit Audio Modius (AKM4493)
- Schiit Audio Yggradrasil+ GS2 (Multibit)
- Schiit Modi Multibit
- Schiit Bifrost 2/64 (Multibit)
- Ayre Acoustics QB-9 Twenty (ES9038Q2M)
The Ayre is just in a different class than the rest of the gear, would be my guess.
-
The Ayre is just in a different class than the rest of the gear, would be my guess.
Tyson have you listened to the Ayre equipment before?
-
The Border Patrol DAC has a nice smooth sound with a laid-back presentation. It doesn't have the detail of higher-end DACs but is non-fatiguing and easy to listen to. It depends on what you are looking for. For me, the Border Patrol was too laid back.
I would imagine that the ANK DACs, particularly the upper models, would have the smoothness of the Border Patrol, but hopefully with more detail, sharper image focus, and a deeper/wider soundstage.
I learned a lot from reading posts by Ted Smith, PS Audio DirectStream’s lead developer.
https://forum.psaudio.com/t/r2r-dacs-vs-chip-dacs-vs-fpga-dacs/11518 (https://forum.psaudio.com/t/r2r-dacs-vs-chip-dacs-vs-fpga-dacs/11518)
In August 2020, Ted Smith talked about the NOS Philips TDA 1543 chip in the BorderPatrol NOS DAC (and still used in 2022). His comment reminded me of my first DAC, a Scott Nixon Tube DAC I bought used in 2006 that also used the Philips TDA 1543 chip. The SN Tube DAC was a NOS design with no digital filter. The sound was pleasant but eventually I became bored because the music just laid there, there was no PRaT, and now I know why. The Van Alstine Insight DAC I bought in 2008 was livelier but still rough around the edges compared to modern DACs.
Ted wrote:
“It’s [Philips TDA 1543 DAC] a very simple chip. For people who want NOS or R-2R style DACs it’s great. Also most people don’t seem to read the datasheet, the chip requires an opamp to meet its specs (which aren’t great), but many simply use resistors on its outputs which adds a lot of 2nd harmonic distortion and restricts the dynamic range.
"If your favorite music doesn’t have a lot of high frequencies and it doesn’t get too loud, the chip works well.
"Without an output filter the timing and waveshape of impulses is lost and PRaT will suffer, but if the original recording is already rolled off this won’t be a problem.
I suspect most people that really enjoy orchestral or, say, grunge [or rock] would be disappointed, but jazz trios, women’s solo voice, etc. should sound fine.”
Three members in our audio club use ANK DACs, two 5.1s and a 2.1. The three systems are different so I can't hear the subtle differences between the 5.1 and 2.1. One member with the ANK 5.1 uses a Pass XA25 integrated amp with Magepan 1.7i speakers and a REL G2 sub. The sound is clear and detailed, not rolled off at all. Both 5.1 DACs use upgraded parts and cost between $5,500 - $6,000 to build.
But I'm not tempted to switch from my HoloAudio May KTE. The May may not be the best when used as purely a NOS DAC playing Redbook recordings but feed it hi-res PCM or DSD and it becomes an A+ DAC. I usually (but not always) prefer the sound of DSD (usually upsampled) compared to PCM and the ANK DACs don't do DSD or hi-res PCM. Sound Liaison has been releasing some nice music lately. Their recent Visual Sound Sampler ($13) (https://soundliaison.com/collections/nativedsd-album-of-the-year-2023/products/the-visual-sound-sound-liaison-dxd-music-sampler) is a nice introduction to their recordings. The sampler is in the original one-mic recording format DXD 352kHz (PCM WAV). All other formats are converted versions of the original. A FLAC-96kHz download compatible with ANK DACs is also available. With all the money I put into my stereo I like to hear what the producer intended instead of a downsampled copy.
... if you listen to classic rock like LedZepplin etc stick with the 2.1 it is more forgiving and sounds great.
A buddy has the NX-Studio, go with the ANK 2.1.
-
I had some Schiit before BF2/64 and Modi MB, and the Bifrost2/64 was very detailed but a bit glassy and harsh with my speakers Ina near-midfield setup. Great with headphones though. But the MHDT was a lot more natural and 3 dimensional sound even if slightly less detailed. I have upgraded some of the parts inside and plan to do more later. Definitely good dac for tinkering (cap and resistor swaps, rca plugs, tube rolling, etc).
I have a Bitfrost 2/64 and totally agree, it is a detail monster. Normally I love it, but sometimes I want to take it down a notch, that's when I switch out my SS amp for my push pull EL34 tube amp and it smooths out the sound a bit.
Looking to chase that smooth sound even further down the rabbit hole, I am currently building a Kegger Design, SE UL KT88 amp with some ISO iron.
Schiit Heads Rule :beer:
-
I learned a lot from reading posts by Ted Smith, PS Audio DirectStream’s lead developer.
https://forum.psaudio.com/t/r2r-dacs-vs-chip-dacs-vs-fpga-dacs/11518 (https://forum.psaudio.com/t/r2r-dacs-vs-chip-dacs-vs-fpga-dacs/11518)
In August 2020, Ted Smith talked about the NOS Philips TDA 1543 chip in the BorderPatrol NOS DAC (and still used in 2022). His comment reminded me of my first DAC, a Scott Nixon Tube DAC I bought used in 2006 that also used the Philips TDA 1543 chip. The SN Tube DAC was a NOS design with no digital filter. The sound was pleasant but eventually I became bored because the music just laid there, there was no PRaT, and now I know why. The Van Alstine Insight DAC I bought in 2008 was livelier but still rough around the edges compared to modern DACs.
Ted wrote:
“It’s [Philips TDA 1543 DAC] a very simple chip. For people who want NOS or R-2R style DACs it’s great. Also most people don’t seem to read the datasheet, the chip requires an opamp to meet its specs (which aren’t great), but many simply use resistors on its outputs which adds a lot of 2nd harmonic distortion and restricts the dynamic range.
"If your favorite music doesn’t have a lot of high frequencies and it doesn’t get too loud, the chip works well.
"Without an output filter the timing and waveshape of impulses is lost and PRaT will suffer, but if the original recording is already rolled off this won’t be a problem.
I suspect most people that really enjoy orchestral or, say, grunge [or rock] would be disappointed, but jazz trios, women’s solo voice, etc. should sound fine.”
Three members in our audio club use ANK DACs, two 5.1s and a 2.1. The three systems are different so I can't hear the subtle differences between the 5.1 and 2.1. One member with the ANK 5.1 uses a Pass XA25 integrated amp with Magepan 1.7i speakers and a REL G2 sub. The sound is clear and detailed, not rolled off at all. Both 5.1 DACs use upgraded parts and cost between $5,500 - $6,000 to build.
But I'm not tempted to switch from my HoloAudio May KTE. The May may not be the best when used as purely a NOS DAC playing Redbook recordings but feed it hi-res PCM or DSD and it becomes an A+ DAC. I usually (but not always) prefer the sound of DSD (usually upsampled) compared to PCM and the ANK DACs don't do DSD or hi-res PCM. Sound Liaison has been releasing some nice music lately. Their recent Visual Sound Sampler ($13) (https://soundliaison.com/collections/nativedsd-album-of-the-year-2023/products/the-visual-sound-sound-liaison-dxd-music-sampler) is a nice introduction to their recordings. The sampler is in the original one-mic recording format DXD 352kHz (PCM WAV). All other formats are converted versions of the original. A FLAC-96kHz download compatible with ANK DACs is also available. With all the money I put into my stereo I like to hear what the producer intended instead of a downsampled copy.
A buddy has the NX-Studio, go with the ANK 2.1.
I read that article you sent. Does the ANK DAC's have some sort of output filter. Also I was reading and have ran across The JK Richardson Mods on the PS Audio direct stream mk1 DAC's that is suppose to be amazing. Do you know anything about that. The guys on the PS Audio forum's say it best the PS Audio MK2 and Terminator 2 etc..
-
Does the ANK DAC's have some sort of output filter. Also I was reading and have ran across The JK Richardson Mods on the PS Audio direct stream mk1 DAC's that is suppose to be amazing. Do you know anything about that.
I don't know how ANK DACs work. One of the guys in our group has a PS Audio DirectStream DAC MK2, he used their trade-up program so no JK Richardson Mods in our audio gang.
-
I don't know how ANK DACs work. One of the guys in our group has a PS Audio DirectStream DAC MK2, he used their trade-up program so no JK Richardson Mods in our audio gang.
Thanks for the info. They are talking like that modded DAC is better than the MK2
-
Right now, I have the following DACs under the roof... on purpose. I'm figuring out what I want. I've been swapping units in and out... and the results have been surprising. Prices range from $143 used to $4850 new. All but 1 was bought used and I can still return the new one... so it's been a pretty good test without too much risk.
I haven't finished swapping them in and out but I've formed pretty clear opinions about this and I'm pretty sure of exactly what I'm going to do. Sure enough that I'm actively looking for one.
- RME ADI-2 DAC FS (AKM4493)
- TEAC UD-505 (AKM4497)
- Schiit Audio Modius (AKM4493)
- Schiit Audio Yggradrasil+ GS2 (Multibit)
- Schiit Modi Multibit
- Schiit Bifrost 2/64 (Multibit)
- Ayre Acoustics QB-9 Twenty (ES9038Q2M)
jmimac351,
I would love to hear your opinion on the differences between the Schiit Bitfrost 2/64 and the Yaggy GS2. I was thinking of trading up from my Bitfrost 2/64 to the GS2, but just dont know how much of a change it would be.
I listened to a podcast once where Jason Stodderd said that he felt the Bitfrost 2/64 now has much of the technology/sound that made the Yaggy special. I have been very happy with the Bitfrost 2/64 in my system. But the GS2 version has me thinking that it might be a more cost effective way to step up and provide an upgrade path in the future.
I would be pairing it with the Tyr's and some other tube amps and the GR Brutes for good old rock n roll. So something that helps to deal with less than perfect recording would be an upgrade for me but hopefully still maintaining the sound stage and attack I currently have.
-
Right now, I have the following DACs under the roof... on purpose. I'm figuring out what I want. I've been swapping units in and out... and the results have been surprising. Prices range from $143 used to $4850 new. All but 1 was bought used and I can still return the new one... so it's been a pretty good test without too much risk.
I haven't finished swapping them in and out but I've formed pretty clear opinions about this and I'm pretty sure of exactly what I'm going to do. Sure enough that I'm actively looking for one.
- RME ADI-2 DAC FS (AKM4493)
- TEAC UD-505 (AKM4497)
- Schiit Audio Modius (AKM4493)
- Schiit Audio Yggradrasil+ GS2 (Multibit)
- Schiit Modi Multibit
- Schiit Bifrost 2/64 (Multibit)
- Ayre Acoustics QB-9 Twenty (ES9038Q2M)
So is the Ayre winning? I was looking at the Ayre preamps. They are really nice. Even the x series.
-
The Ayre is just in a different class than the rest of the gear, would be my guess.
The Ayre is what I owned prior to this other gear. It started with the RME unit... and then I decided to bring in a number of other pieces and really try to figure out what I like. It has been very interesting. I've been switching between units in Real Time... which has really helped to experience differences.
The Yggdrasil is being returned. It sounds good, but I can hear the transformers hum from 12' away. There is a fix for it, but I shouldn't been popping the lid for a brand new product. And given what I've experienced with the other gear, I don't think the value is there, ultimately.
Comments elsewhere about the Bifrost 2/64 being very / too detailed... that hasn't been my experience. Different speakers, different preamp / amp... it sounds good to me. I like the way the Bifrost sounds. It uses the same chips as the "Less Is More" Yggdrasil, which is said to be a smooth sound. Smooth, but still has detail. I agree.
The Modius is an AKM4493 DAC (same chip as RME) and it sounds good... and is so inexpensive. I will be keeping that one, no matter what. However, just because it has the same chip as the RME does not mean it "is an RME".
The last piece I will put back into the party is the Ayre.
Here is what has been very illumnating, and I would never have considered trying it if not for a friend with a pair of Wilson Audio Duette just like mine. He's a 2 channel guy and can buy whatever he wants. He raved about the RME and kept telling me I had to try it. He's replaced gear costing 10X what it does.
Well, it's been a revelation. Mine has the AKM4493, but it's different that the Modius... and every one of these other DACs. There is something different going on with the dynamics. There is a feature called "Auto Reference Level" that makes automatic adjustments according to volume level that still gets 100% of the dynamic range of the chip. You can hear it clicking It has to be experienced to be appreciated. It makes the other DACs, so far, sound flat by comparison. It's not a volume level difference thing... it's just some sort of voodoo magic, I guess.
Plus, it can drive an amp directly, has 5 band PEQ, plus separate configurable bands for Bass & Treble. 20 EQ presets plus EQ preset designed for each individual Digital Filter. System-wide DAC configuration setups can be saved. It goes on and on... I think it will make a ham sandwich.
I am going to visit GR Research next week. The unit is small enough to put in my helmet bag on the plane. I think I'm going to bring it and let Danny & Hobbs hear it.
I am absolutely an "analog / tube-ish" guy... but I also know if something makes me happy.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Miscellaneous-Audio/i-GWPf483/0/DNtkBs38dr9B7DVmmSStqLNnsFwPFvWqk93Qp85C2/L/IMG_8572-L.jpg)
-
I read that article you sent. Does the ANK DAC's have some sort of output filter. Also I was reading and have ran across The JK Richardson Mods on the PS Audio direct stream mk1 DAC's that is suppose to be amazing. Do you know anything about that. The guys on the PS Audio forum's say it best the PS Audio MK2 and Terminator 2 etc..
The ANK DACs are 1x oversampling. Meaning they are NOS DACs, so they have no filter.
-
The ANK DACs are 1x oversampling. Meaning they are NOS DACs, so they have no filter.
1x sampling does not preclude the use of an output filter. The ANK DACs use a transformer I/V converter. This, combined with a shunt capacitor after the transformer forms a low-pass filter. It is not a very steep filter, but will still provide some reduction in higher order harmonics.
-
Just noticed that PS audio is selling the BHK250 half off right now in case anyone interested.
https://www.psaudio.com/products/bhk-signature-250-amplifier
-
I wanted to know the feedback of my new amplifier. I didn't know anything about feedback until this thread. I texted the designer Steve McCormack online and he replied that it has about 6db of negative feedback. He said beyond that it starts to affect the sound. Im not sure what 6db of feedback is. If anyone can explain let me know.
-
I wanted to know the feedback of my new amplifier. I didn't know anything about feedback until this thread. I texted the designer Steve McCormack online and he replied that it has about 6db of negative feedback. He said beyond that it starts to affect the sound. Im not sure what 6db of feedback is. If anyone can explain let me know.
6db of feedback means that half the voltage gain of the amplifier is fed back to the input. The McCormick DNA has a voltage gain of about 38. Assuming this is with 6db feedback, the gain without feedback would be about 76x This is fairly modest feedback, but is enough to improve the THD and damping factor and increase effective frequency response.
All amplifiers have reduced gain as the frequency goes up once you get past the dominant pole of the circuit. Applying negative feedback will improve the frequency response by reducing the effective gain below this pole. In the case of the McCormick DNA, the -3db point with 6db of feedback is spec'ed at 250Khz. With zero feedback, the -3db point would be approximately 200Khz. This is still pretty good.
But because the amp's gain falls off above this point, the feedback is less effective at reducing harmonic distortion components at higher frequencies. In this case, the bandwidth is pretty high, so it's unlikely you'd be able to hear this effect since the harmonics that would have less reduction would be many octaves above human hearing limits.
For amplifiers with lower open-loop dominant poles, this can have a more pronounced effect since it's likely more feedback will be required to achieve reasonable frequency response, and this feedback will knock down the low order harmonics (particularly 2nd and 3rd) much more than higher order harmonics.
-
6db of feedback means that half the voltage gain of the amplifier is fed back to the input. The McCormick DNA has a voltage gain of about 38. Assuming this is with 6db feedback, the gain without feedback would be about 76x This is fairly modest feedback, but is enough to improve the THD and damping factor and increase effective frequency response.
All amplifiers have reduced gain as the frequency goes up once you get past the dominant pole of the circuit. Applying negative feedback will improve the frequency response by reducing the effective gain below this pole. In the case of the McCormick DNA, the -3db point with 6db of feedback is spec'ed at 250Khz. With zero feedback, the -3db point would be approximately 200Khz. This is still pretty good.
But because the amp's gain falls off above this point, the feedback is less effective at reducing harmonic distortion components at higher frequencies. In this case, the bandwidth is pretty high, so it's unlikely you'd be able to hear this effect since the harmonics that would have less reduction would be many octaves above human hearing limits.
For amplifiers with lower open-loop dominant poles, this can have a more pronounced effect since it's likely more feedback will be required to achieve reasonable frequency response, and this feedback will knock down the low order harmonics (particularly 2nd and 3rd) much more than higher order harmonics.
From a layman reading this it sounds like Steve McCormack did a decent job at controlling the negative effects of negative feedback. Do you also prefer the sound of no negative feedback?
-
McCormack makes very good sounding amps, IMO. The low/moderate feedback is one of the reasons, IMO.
The problem with a lot of SS gear is some manufacturers are spec driven and using a lot of feedback helps to get THD+N lower. The problem, IMO, is that the feedback pulls out the lower order harmonics (primarily 2nd and 3rd) and that makes them sound sterile, to my ears.
Part of the reason the FirstWatt amps sound so good, is their use of no/low feedback.
Lots of feedback to reduce THD+N is a case of 'measuring better' not equaling 'sounding better'.
-
From a layman reading this it sounds like Steve McCormack did a decent job at controlling the negative effects of negative feedback. Do you also prefer the sound of no negative feedback?
I don't have any experience comparing the exact same amp topology with and without feedback, so it's a bit hard to associate a specific sound signature with no negative feedback. However, as Tyson and I indicated, feedback can tend to quash the favorable second and third harmonics which can expose the unfavorable higher-order harmonics.
Second and third harmonics are generally considered a plus by many (most?) audiophiles since it adds depth and spaciousness to the sound stage, and does a good job masking higher order harmonics.
I can say that I have generally preferred the zero and very low feedback amplifiers I have had in my system. However, as Ralph Karsten from Atma-Sphere points out, if the gain-bandwidth product is high enough such that it's possible to use negative feedback in excess of 30db or so, it is possible to reduce the higher order harmonics enough so that they are not audible even without the masking effect of the low-order harmonics.
I haven't had an opportunity to listen to Ralph's class D amps for an extended period, but the brief listen at one of the audio shows was promising.
I am also pretty happy with my Purifi class D amps, but I am using a tube input buffer which introduces a fair amount of low order harmonic content, providing the desirable masking effect. But I don't think these monoblocks are quite as good as my zero-feedback 300B SET amps, or the Pass XA60.8 amps I previously had in my system.
EDIT: And yes, I think Steve McCormick does a nice job with his amps. He doesn't use excessive feedback in the pursuit of vanishingly low distortion specs. I don't have a ton of experience with his amps, but I've heard them a few times at audio shows and the sound was very pleasing.
-
I don't have any experience comparing the exact same amp topology with and without feedback, so it's a bit hard to associate a specific sound signature with no negative feedback. However, as Tyson and I indicated, feedback can tend to quash the favorable second and third harmonics which can expose the unfavorable higher-order harmonics.
Second and third harmonics are generally considered a plus by many (most?) audiophiles since it adds depth and spaciousness to the sound stage, and does a good job masking higher order harmonics.
I can say that I have generally preferred the zero and very low feedback amplifiers I have had in my system. However, as Ralph Karsten from Atma-Sphere points out, if the gain-bandwidth product is high enough such that it's possible to use negative feedback in excess of 30db or so, it is possible to reduce the higher order harmonics enough so that they are not audible even without the masking effect of the low-order harmonics.
I haven't had an opportunity to listen to Ralph's class D amps for an extended period, but the brief listen at one of the audio shows was promising.
I am also pretty happy with my Purifi class D amps, but I am using a tube input buffer which introduces a fair amount of low order harmonic content, providing the desirable masking effect. But I don't think these monoblocks are quite as good as my zero-feedback 300B SET amps, or the Pass XA60.8 amps I previously had in my system.
EDIT: And yes, I think Steve McCormick does a nice job with his amps. He doesn't use excessive feedback in the pursuit of vanishingly low distortion specs. I don't have a ton of experience with his amps, but I've heard them a few times at audio shows and the sound was very pleasing.
Does negative feedback apply to everything preamps, DAC's etc. I have been looking at some preamps and they talk about no negative feedback. If so does it have a compounding affect?
-
Does negative feedback apply to everything preamps, DAC's etc. I have been looking at some preamps and they talk about no negative feedback. If so does it have a compounding affect?
Negative feedback can be used with any amplifier, be it a DAC buffer, phono stage, line stage, or power amplifier.
Most DACs have an output buffer of some form. There are some exceptions (e.g. I understand that the Denafrips DACs do not have an output buffer and as a result have somewhat higher output impedance compared to many other DACs). If the output buffer uses opamps, it will definitely use feedback since opamps have a very high gain-bandwidth product but very limited open-loop bandwidth. But it is certainly possible to build a discrete buffer (either tube or SS) that has no or very low negative feedback.
I've seen many more tube circuits with no negative feedback, while most solid-state circuits use some amount of feedback.
I wouldn't get too hung up on whether a circuit uses feedback or not. A small amount of feedback can provide lower noise, lower output impedance, and more consistent performance. As I'm sure you've heard countless times, the best strategy is to listen to the product in your system to decide whether it's a good fit for you.
If you can find out the harmonic distortion spectrum (i.e. a graph showing the distortion profile), I think the best sound comes from circuits where each increasing harmonic has lower peaks (e.g. 2nd is higher than 3rd is higher then 4th etc.), but with the highest peak at least 60db down from the fundamental (that's equivalent to 0.1% distortion). Ideally, it should be closer to 80db down (0.01%), but that's pretty challenging while maintaining a monotonically decreasing harmonic spectrum.
-
Jaytor's experience matches my own.
-
jmimac351,
I would love to hear your opinion on the differences between the Schiit Bitfrost 2/64 and the Yaggy GS2. I was thinking of trading up from my Bitfrost 2/64 to the GS2, but just dont know how much of a change it would be.
I listened to a podcast once where Jason Stodderd said that he felt the Bitfrost 2/64 now has much of the technology/sound that made the Yaggy special. I have been very happy with the Bitfrost 2/64 in my system. But the GS2 version has me thinking that it might be a more cost effective way to step up and provide an upgrade path in the future.
I would be pairing it with the Tyr's and some other tube amps and the GR Brutes for good old rock n roll. So something that helps to deal with less than perfect recording would be an upgrade for me but hopefully still maintaining the sound stage and attack I currently have.
I just shipped the Yggdrasil back yesterday. As mentioned, it had a mechanical transformer hum that I could hear at my listening position, 12' away. It was loud enough that my wife asked "What is that humming noise?"
The Yggy sounded nice... but so did this other stuff. I just mentioned to someone elsewhere that I would definitely just opt for the Bifrost 2/64 unit. It was dead quiet and sounded great. It had the smoothness but also detail that people have been describing in the Yggdrasil LIM unit. This is actually the second time I've owned the Bifrost 2/64. The first was when I had my Magnepan 3.7i speakers. The speakers were the limiting factor in really being able to appreciate the DAC, and I sold it too quickly.
~Some sort of RME DAC will be staying, whether it's the current one or even the ADI-2/4 Pro SE, which uses the same chip as my Ayre QB-9 Twenty. The features / sound of the RME are incredible, IMO. It's a tremendous product.
~The Ayre QB-9 Twenty will be staying, as it sounds wonderful and is my frame of reference for "right".
~The Modius with AKM4493 will be staying... I paid for it with quarters I found in the couch, and it sounds excellent. I think it is the DAC that Mike Moffat mentioned as a D/S DAC that "sounded waaaaaaaay too good". The Modi Multibit will be staying for similar reasons. I think I bought it with nickels I found in the cupholder of my truck. :green: There is a reason why Jason Stoddard said he still uses one.
This time around, I will not be quick to sell the Bifrost 2/64. I bought it right and I think this stuff is fun. Besides... Schiit is working on an update for Gungnir that will be D/S. If they come out with some new card for BF 2/64, maybe I'll play with it. I think the Bifrost 2/64 is the best option for me to have one of their DACs that truly does sound great, can be upgraded (when they do it), costs half (or less) of the Yggy, and doesn't have the mechanical hum issues. (Search for that Yggy hum issue, it can be easily fixed, but it's still a thing).
I had similar thoughts as you about buying into the Yggy ecosystem / upgrade path. And then I heard transformer hum, experienced other DACs that sound as good (or better) with far more features never contemplated (and will never be done) by Schiit. And then, you see the pricing for Upgrade cards on Schiit website. $550 for the LIM boards and $850 for the MIB. After what I've experienced with these DACs and as it relates to your question, the Bifrost 2/64, I would absolutely keep the 2/64.
I'll put it to you this way, when I dropped off the Yggdrasil at FedEx yesterday, it was with a sense of relief that "I experienced that and know what that is, and I know what I already have is at least as good, and in very important ways, SUPERIOR".
Hopefully this helps you get past that itch. I know how it is when you're wondering about "that other thing..."
-
My Yggy is dead quiet. Perhaps you got a bad one. A couple years ago I ordered a Freya S. In the apartment I was living in at the time it came with a significant increase in noise. Others said theirs were dead quiet so I figured I just got a bad unit. I tried to get it either repaired or replaced but Schiit just gave me the refund. Oh well. My point is Schiit happens. But at least they take care of their customers.
-
My Yggy is dead quiet. Perhaps you got a bad one. A couple years ago I ordered a Freya S. In the apartment I was living in at the time it came with a significant increase in noise. Others said theirs were dead quiet so I figured I just got a bad unit. I tried to get it either repaired or replaced but Schiit just gave me the refund. Oh well. My point is Schiit happens. But at least they take care of their customers.
They gave your money back and said flush it down the toilet.
-
So, my current, preferred setup is this:
- Ayre QB-9 Twenty DAC
- Ayre KX-5 Twenty Preamp
- Ayre VX-5 Twenty Amp
I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT. The retail pricing on this stuff is up there... but I buy stuff "used and right". Remember, what something actually costs you is the difference between what you buy it for and what you sell it for. This financial strategy is fully "Audiophile Approved". (Plus, it's true - notwithstanding the opportunity costs of earning on the money). But this stuff adds enjoying to my life every day... put a number on that.
In fact, I've picked up some other Ayre gear that is "secret stuff"... "secret, really good stuff that doesn't cost a fortune".
1) AX-7e Integrated. It can be an integrated, but also has a "Pass Thru" function, so it can "just be an amp". Plus, with the way it's designed, the volume "wakes up" to make an adjustment, then "goes back to sleep". And, any inputs not being used are "put to sleep". So, it's SUPER quiet... as is all Ayre gear. $1,250 used. 60w/Ch 8ohms / 120wCh 4ohms. And... it "punches above its weight".
2) K5xe MP preamp. This is less than half price (used) of my KX-5 Twenty preamp. But is REALLY good. It is reference quality... ~$2100 used. This is a "classic" piece.
Have you listened to the 5xe MP? How close does it sound compared to your preamp? I was noticing it had HT Bypass. Does yours have HT Bypass also?
-
My Yggy is dead quiet. Perhaps you got a bad one. A couple years ago I ordered a Freya S. In the apartment I was living in at the time it came with a significant increase in noise. Others said theirs were dead quiet so I figured I just got a bad unit. I tried to get it either repaired or replaced but Schiit just gave me the refund. Oh well. My point is Schiit happens. But at least they take care of their customers.
Agreed. They are making it right.
-
Have you listened to the 5xe MP? How close does it sound compared to your preamp? I was noticing it had HT Bypass. Does yours have HT Bypass also?
I have not put the K5xe MP into "the Big Rig" yet, so I really can't answer that. I do already know it is excellent as a friend owns one and I've heard it with a number of different amplifiers and speakers in his dedicated, treated room. I traded a Michel Cryo SE turntable for it... didn't need it but figured the preamp would be easier to sell, if I wanted to. Plus, like I said, I knew it was really good.
Here is a video Ayre did for the K5xe MP preamp. Many aren't aware, but Ariel Brown became "The Guy" doing their designs for many years prior to Charlie Hansen's passing. He has a very large brain. They are doing a sort of "look back" and going thru each of their products and talking about them. Past up thru current. I'm looking forward to when they get to the KX-5 Twenty and VX-5 Twenty. If you watch the video, they mention a really cool feature of the K5xe MP... when making a volume change... the volume switching "Wakes Up", makes the change, then "Goes to sleep". The preamp turns off things that don't need to be on for what it's doing. Ayre is fanatical about noise... and stuff like that is part of it. I think most all of their products have built-in power conditioning.
https://youtu.be/8fnpSd738bU?si=B07V96EfkkwOX1RV
My KX-5 Twenty does have Processor Pass Thru. Each of the inputs can be turned "ON" and "Off", and labeled. Also, the overall gain for the preamp can be adjusted in 2 ways. One is thru the menu option, via a setting. I think it goes up to +6dB. The other is via jumpers that you can place into the board. I have the jumpers and can do either. So, if using an input that doesn't quite have the gain / output you want, you can adjust for that.
If you look at the volume control of the KX-5 Twenty... you know you're looking at something pretty special. There are independent parts on a "pinwheel". They call it "Variable-Gain Transconductance". Stereophile sez: "Instead of adjusting volume in the traditional manner—with a potentiometer that discards varying amounts of the product's signal gain—each phase of each stereo channel of the VGT contains 46 discrete resistors that, selected with a rotary switch, create 46 distinct variations on the preamp's voltage-gain stage, for a range of 46 volume levels." When making a volume change, it's like the proper resistor is being "soldered in". It make a unique noise as it actuates. And every time I hear it, it makes me smile. Another thing I really like about it is that it has 2 pairs of Balanced outputs.
This thing is pretty pricey. I bought it used and fortunately only had to buy it once. I'm really glad I did. I've tried running the RME direct to my amp and I think I like it better thru the preamp. If it's adding distortion...well then it's the distortion profile that I like - so be it. I like owning nice things made with care.
However... even with how much I like this stuff and thinks it's cool and like owning it, and ramble on... based on what I have experienced and think I now know... if I were starting from scratch and looking to create something that could rival just about anything, for not a ton of money, I would do this, to reiterate:
1) Buy a used RME ADI-2 DAC FS. I bought mine for $850. You'll have a DAC, preamp, and 7 band PEQ. Many have not considered that sort of thing / brand. It's a "Studio Gear Brand". Up until several months ago I hadn't even heard of it, until a buddy raved about it and talked about replacing megabuck gear with it. Some will say "But, it's digital". Yes... USB / Coax / Optical input to the DAC and it does DSP in the Digital Domain, then analog output via a pair of Balanced and RCA outputs. And the way they do the analog output is totally unique because it runs the DAC chip at its ideal dynamic range the entire time - "Auto Reference Volume". The output has a "presence" that is unique. You can run direct to your amp. And here's the thing... there is a very good chance that the music you, me, and anyone complaining about "it's digital" are listening to was recorded, mixed, and mastered with RME gear in the studio. So...it is what it is.
They have a user forum where the lead designer / guy who writes the 120 page HYPER DETAILED manuals engage with users, actively. They are very serious about their product and what they are doing. They have 3 models aimed at Home hifi. The top one has a phono preamp. All of the units will make you a ham sandwich, if you want.
2) Buy a used amp with low overall feedback. (My preference) The new Schiit Aegir 2 (if it doesn't hum) or that Ayre AX-7e was a "Stereophile Class A" component (maybe they bought an ad) and can be had for ~$1,100. It's a sleeper product. It also has processor pass thru. If you already have a DAC, you can just use that. The Aegir 2 is supposed to launch next week.
A fella could have all electronics done for ~$2k, and it could very well rival just about any setup out there. I have this exact gear in the house and just haven't fooled with swapping it in to give myself a rash about whether I should be selling a bunch of expensive stuff...
"Variable Gain Transconductance" Volume Control
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261798&size=xlarge)
-
I have not put the K5xe MP into "the Big Rig" yet, so I really can't answer that. I do already know it is excellent as a friend owns one and I've heard it with a number of different amplifiers and speakers in his dedicated, treated room. I traded a Michel Cryo SE turntable for it... didn't need it but figured the preamp would be easier to sell, if I wanted to. Plus, like I said, I knew it was really good.
Here is a video Ayre did for the K5xe MP preamp. Many aren't aware, but Ariel Brown became "The Guy" doing their designs for many years prior to Charlie Hansen's passing. He has a very large brain. They are doing a sort of "look back" and going thru each of their products and talking about them. Past up thru current. I'm looking forward to when they get to the KX-5 Twenty and VX-5
Twenty. If you watch the video, they mention a really cool feature of the K5xe MP... when making a volume change... the volume switching "Wakes Up", makes the change, then "Goes to sleep". The preamp turns off things that don't need to be on for what it's doing. Ayre is fanatical about noise... and stuff like that is part of it. I think most all of their products have built-in power conditioning.
https://youtu.be/8fnpSd738bU?si=B07V96EfkkwOX1RV
My KX-5 Twenty does have Processor Pass Thru. Each of the inputs can be turned "ON" and "Off", and labeled. Also, the overall gain for the preamp can be adjusted in 2 ways. One is thru the menu option, via a setting. I think it goes up to +6dB. The other is via jumpers that you can place into the board. I have the jumpers and can do either. So, if using an input that doesn't quite have the gain / output you want, you can adjust for that.
If you look at the volume control of the KX-5 Twenty... you know you're looking at something pretty special. There are independent parts on a "pinwheel". They call it "Variable-Gain Transconductance". Stereophile sez: "Instead of adjusting volume in the traditional manner—with a potentiometer that discards varying amounts of the product's signal gain—each phase of each stereo channel of the VGT contains 46 discrete resistors that, selected with a rotary switch, create 46 distinct variations on the preamp's voltage-gain stage, for a range of 46 volume levels." When making a volume change, it's like the proper resistor is being "soldered in". It make a unique noise as it actuates. And every time I hear it, it makes me smile. Another thing I really like about it is that it has 2 pairs of Balanced outputs.
This thing is pretty pricey. I bought it used and fortunately only had to buy it once. I'm really glad I did. I've tried running the RME direct to my amp and I think I like it better thru the preamp. If it's adding distortion...well then it's the distortion profile that I like - so be it. I like owning nice things made with care.
However... even with how much I like this stuff and thinks it's cool and like owning it, and ramble on... based on what I have experienced and think I now know... if I were starting from scratch and looking to create something that could rival just about anything, for not a ton of money, I would do this, to reiterate:
1) Buy a used RME ADI-2 DAC FS. I bought mine for $850. You'll have a DAC, preamp, and 7 band PEQ. Many have not considered that sort of thing / brand. It's a "Studio Gear Brand". Up until several months ago I hadn't even heard of it, until a buddy raved about it and talked about replacing megabuck gear with it. Some will say "But, it's digital". Yes... USB / Coax / Optical input to the DAC and it does DSP in the Digital Domain, then analog output via a pair of Balanced and RCA outputs. And the way they do the analog output is totally unique because it runs the DAC chip at its ideal dynamic range the entire time - "Auto Reference Volume". The output has a "presence" that is unique. You can run direct to your amp. And here's the thing... there is a very good chance that the music you, me, and anyone complaining about "it's digital" are listening to was recorded, mixed, and mastered with RME gear in the studio. So...it is what it is.
They have a user forum where the lead designer / guy who writes the 120 page HYPER DETAILED manuals engage with users, actively. They are very serious about their product and what they are doing. They have 3 models aimed at Home hifi. The top one has a phono preamp. All of the units will make you a ham sandwich, if you want.
2) Buy a used amp with low overall feedback. (My preference) The new Schiit Aegir 2 (if it doesn't hum) or that Ayre AX-7e was a "Stereophile Class A" component (maybe they bought an ad) and can be had for ~$1,100. It's a sleeper product. It also has processor pass thru. If you already have a DAC, you can just use that. The Aegir 2 is supposed to launch next week.
A fella could have all electronics done for ~$2k, and it could very well rival just about any setup out there. I have this exact gear in the house and just haven't fooled with swapping it in to give myself a rash about whether I should be selling a bunch of expensive stuff...
"Variable Gain Transconductance" Volume Control
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261798&size=xlarge)
That preamp is super nice. I haven't seen that type of volume control in any other preamp. It by itself could be the reference level for many companies and then you see the R series. Those look amazing.
I like what I read about the RME DAC. I'm just afraid that it with my NX-Otica's and SMC audio amp will be to analytical.
-
The volume control is one of the most interesting engineering challenges for a preamp. There are MANY different approaches used.
The simple potentiometer is probably the most common in inexpensive products, but these tend to have problems with channel tracking and noise, particularly as the potentiometer gets well used, dusty, or just dried out from age.
With the advent of microprocessor control, chip-based volume controls have become quite popular, particularly for components like AV processors/receivers which have a lot of channels to control. These use FET-switched resistor networks and can be pretty good to excellent.
Relay switched attenuators have also become pretty popular in recent years and can be found in relatively inexpensive components such as the Schitt Freya, as well as very expensive components like the Pilium preamp.
Yet another approach is using transformer volume controls which switch between multiple taps of a transformer. The challenge with these is that you need a separate tap for each volume level, so the jumps between steps can be excessive.
The Ayre volume control shown appears to use a rotary-switched resistor network. This has the advantage of fewer resistors/contacts that the signal must pass through, but has the disadvantage of fairly large steps since there is a limit to the number of contacts that can be implemented.
This Ayre volume control looks like it would be very nice with very few resistors/contacts in the signal path, but obviously is fairly complex in construction which could result in reliability issues long-term.
So far, I've been using the relay-switched attenuator approach for my own builds, but I've been strongly considering trying a chip-based approach. Many of the top commercial products (e.g. Pass, Audio Research) have used these with good results. The latest Musus72323 chip looks particularly promising. This is a 20K digitally controlled potentiometer with excellent tracking and very low noise and distortion (THD + Noise is 0.0007%).
-
The latest Musus72323 chip looks particularly promising. This is a 20K digitally controlled potentiometer with excellent tracking and very low noise and distortion (THD + Noise is 0.0007%).
By chance do you know of any preamps besides Pass Labs that uses that chip. I tried looking it up but didn't find much?
-
By chance do you know of any preamps besides Pass Labs that uses that chip. I tried looking it up but didn't find much?
Unfortunately, manufacturers generally don't indicate what components they are using. The Muses72323 is a relatively new part, so only very recently released products would be using it. I've seen schematics for older products, like the Audio Research REF5 that use other digitally-controlled volume control parts.
These parts do not convert audio data into digital. They work similar to the way a relay-switched resistor attenuator works, but use FETs instead of relays.
-
Unfortunately, manufacturers generally don't indicate what components they are using. The Muses72323 is a relatively new part, so only very recently released products would be using it. I've seen schematics for older products, like the Audio Research REF5 that use other digitally-controlled volume control parts.
These parts do not convert audio data into digital. They work similar to the way a relay-switched resistor attenuator works, but use FETs instead of relays.
As a DIY'er do you think you can build better equipment than purchasing name brand? I know this is true with speakers but I am referring to amplifiers, preamps DAC's etc..
-
As a DIY'er do you think you can build better equipment than purchasing name brand? I know this is true with speakers but I am referring to amplifiers, preamps DAC's etc..
I wouldn't necessarily say "better". I enjoy the challenge of designing and building my own gear, and particularly building stuff that is sonically and aesthetically comparable to some of the best equipment on the market.
I'm sure I am not saving money, particularly when you consider that I often build several iterations of a particular design before I'm satisfied, and that the resale value is essentially zero.
I think if you are aiming for good quality (but not state-of-the-art) and aren't interested in experimenting (i.e. building proven designs), then you can build products that deliver better price-performance than commercial products. For example, most of the FirstWatt amps are very well documented, and build kits, or at least PCBs and BOMs, are generally available. If you use a chassis from Modushop or from some of the asian suppliers, you can put something together for half the cost of the commercial product of less.
This is what I started out doing, but I found I enjoyed designing my own stuff, fabricating my own PCBs, and designing and building high-quality custom enclosures. So instead of using 3mm thick recycled aluminum, I'm building my enclosures with high quality 8-10mm thick panels with custom machining. And instead of using inexpensive Hammond or Antek transformers, I'm using custom Toroidy, Lundahl, and Monolith Magnetics transformers. Add in the Vishay Z-foil and Audio Note silver tantalum resistors, Miflex and V-Cap copper foil caps, hand-matched transistors (which requires I start out with a lot more than I need), etc. and my build cost is many times higher.
Is it worth it? If I was looking at it strictly as value for the dollar, I would say no. But as I said, a lot of my enjoyment and satisfaction comes from the process of designing and building my own equipment. This is a hobby for me, not a for-profit business.
-
Generally retail has a markup of 8x over COGS (parts cost). For DIY we pay retail for the parts, not wholesale, so our COGS is usually 2x what a company can make. So a quick and dirty value calculation for DIY is 4x COGS for us.
If it costs us $500 to build an amp, it's generally comparable to a $2k retail amp.
-
Generally retail has a markup of 8x over COGS (parts cost). For DIY we pay retail for the parts, not wholesale, so our COGS is usually 2x what a company can make. So a quick and dirty value calculation for DIY is 4x COGS for us.
If it costs us $500 to build an amp, it's generally comparable to a $2k retail amp.
I think this can really vary a lot. As an extreme example, consider replicating something like a Denon AVR-S670H 5.2 channel AV receiver for $550. You'd have a hard time building just the enclosure for this price.
If you wanted to build a basic stereo Purifi 1ET400A amp with a single Hypex SMPS1200a400 power supply, cheap chassis, and simple op-amp input buffers, it would cost you about $1000 or so. VTV sells this same configuration factory-built with a warranty for $1100. But this kind of product involves connected preassembled boards, so you are already paying a lot of the markup from the parts cost.
The First Watt amps are probably the best example of Tyson's 4x formula. These generally sell for around $4000 new from the factory. You can probably build one with a simple chassis (the factory chassis is not that fancy anyway) for about $800 to $1000. But that is assuming you don't make any mistakes in the build and have to replace parts, and spend time shopping around for the best cost on parts. Electronic components have gone up in price a LOT in the past few years, so this could be an under estimate.
But the First Watt amps aren't really designed as commercial products in the same way as the Pass Labs products. They are Nelson Pass's contribution to the DIY community and a way for him to experiment with different amplifier topologies.
Higher end products are where you will see the most mark-up over parts cost. I'm talking about amps and preamps that sell for $10K or more (sometimes much more). These are (were) not produced in very high volume, so the manufacturer has to cover their overhead (including engineering, marketing, management, facilities, etc.) with far fewer unit sales. It takes some engineering know-how to be able to replicate these kind of products, but the schematics of many older (10+ years) products can often be found. And some of these would still be considered outstanding products today (particularly the tube based products). The challenge with many of these designs is that the original parts used are no longer available, so an ability to figure out appropriate substitute parts is required.
If you want to get your feet wet with DIY, I'd suggest one of the Elekits. These sell for between $500 to $2200 (plus the cost of the tubes in the case of their higher end 300B amps). They are well designed with excellent build instructions, and are comparable to commercial products that are 2-3x the cost. Yes, you could save a little money by sourcing all the parts yourself, but that can take a lot of time and effort.
The ANK kits are also very nice products, but are pricier, not as well documented, and often have issues with missing parts (although the company will generally rectify these shortages as quickly as possible when made aware).
-
My DIY skills are lacking, so I commission others to do the work. The secret to keeping the cost low is finding experts who enjoy doing the work as a hobby. Even with labor cost, the resulting product is custom-made, has the highest quality parts, and probably compares to similar commercial products costing several times more. For instance, my DIY speakers cost about $3K to build, but I wouldn't hesitate to put them in the ring against any comparable speaker regardless of price. They may lose the fight against the best in the business, but they'll perform like Francis Ngannou did vs. Tyson Fury. Yeah, the resale value for DIY gear is low, but the cost is relatively low, so it evens out.
I'm currently commissioning a build for a linear power supply for my streamer. I can get one custom-built for roughly the same price that I can buy a new one from a prominent after-market manufacturer, but my DIY version will be 3x larger and ridiculously overbuilt with a massive transformer, higher quality parts, and a custom chassis.
-
My DIY skills are lacking, so I commission others to do the work. The secret to keeping the cost low is finding experts who enjoy doing the work as a hobby. Even with labor cost, the resulting product is custom-made, has the highest quality parts, and probably compares to similar commercial products costing several times more. For instance, my DIY speakers cost about $3K to build, but I wouldn't hesitate to put them in the ring against any comparable speaker regardless of price. They may lose the fight against the best in the business, but they'll perform like Francis Ngannou did vs. Tyson Fury. Yeah, the resale value for DIY gear is low, but the cost is relatively low, so it evens out.
I'm currently commissioning a build for a linear power supply for my streamer. I can get one custom-built for roughly the same price that I can buy a new one from a prominent after-market manufacturer, but my DIY version will be 3x larger and ridiculously overbuilt with a massive transformer, higher quality parts, and a custom chassis.
I totally agree. Do you have a list of people that do specific builds?
-
I totally agree. Do you have a list of people that do specific builds?
What do you want to build?
-
What do you want to build?
Actually just someone that helps to upgrade electronics if I ever needed it.
-
Actually just someone that helps to upgrade electronics if I ever needed it.
Avoid paying for shipping. Look for a local audiophile who enjoys tinkering with electronics, ideally, an experienced DIY guy who loves the smell of molten solder.
-
I managed to get a First Watt F5M kit before they sold out in 20 minutes. Talk about no parts, this amp will be interesting.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=262145)
-
I managed to get a First Watt F5M kit before they sold out in 20 minutes. Talk about no parts, this amp will be interesting.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=262145)
Keep us in the loop.
-
I just shipped the Yggdrasil back yesterday. As mentioned, it had a mechanical transformer hum that I could hear at my listening position, 12' away. It was loud enough that my wife asked "What is that humming noise?"
The Yggy sounded nice... but so did this other stuff. I just mentioned to someone elsewhere that I would definitely just opt for the Bifrost 2/64 unit. It was dead quiet and sounded great. It had the smoothness but also detail that people have been describing in the Yggdrasil LIM unit. This is actually the second time I've owned the Bifrost 2/64. The first was when I had my Magnepan 3.7i speakers. The speakers were the limiting factor in really being able to appreciate the DAC, and I sold it too quickly.
~Some sort of RME DAC will be staying, whether it's the current one or even the ADI-2/4 Pro SE, which uses the same chip as my Ayre QB-9 Twenty. The features / sound of the RME are incredible, IMO. It's a tremendous product.
~The Ayre QB-9 Twenty will be staying, as it sounds wonderful and is my frame of reference for "right".
~The Modius with AKM4493 will be staying... I paid for it with quarters I found in the couch, and it sounds excellent. I think it is the DAC that Mike Moffat mentioned as a D/S DAC that "sounded waaaaaaaay too good". The Modi Multibit will be staying for similar reasons. I think I bought it with nickels I found in the cupholder of my truck. :green: There is a reason why Jason Stoddard said he still uses one.
This time around, I will not be quick to sell the Bifrost 2/64. I bought it right and I think this stuff is fun. Besides... Schiit is working on an update for Gungnir that will be D/S. If they come out with some new card for BF 2/64, maybe I'll play with it. I think the Bifrost 2/64 is the best option for me to have one of their DACs that truly does sound great, can be upgraded (when they do it), costs half (or less) of the Yggy, and doesn't have the mechanical hum issues. (Search for that Yggy hum issue, it can be easily fixed, but it's still a thing).
I had similar thoughts as you about buying into the Yggy ecosystem / upgrade path. And then I heard transformer hum, experienced other DACs that sound as good (or better) with far more features never contemplated (and will never be done) by Schiit. And then, you see the pricing for Upgrade cards on Schiit website. $550 for the LIM boards and $850 for the MIB. After what I've experienced with these DACs and as it relates to your question, the Bifrost 2/64, I would absolutely keep the 2/64.
I'll put it to you this way, when I dropped off the Yggdrasil at FedEx yesterday, it was with a sense of relief that "I experienced that and know what that is, and I know what I already have is at least as good, and in very important ways, SUPERIOR".
Hopefully this helps you get past that itch. I know how it is when you're wondering about "that other thing..."
Thanks jmimac351 for you detailed feedback, it was appreciated.
I still pulled the trigger and ordered a Yggy LIM the other week and a new CEC TL5 transport to try out from Japan. I have had the Yggy LIM for about a week now and the TL5 was delivered by FedEx today.
I'm sorry you had a noisy transformer in your Yggy, sounds like you might have gotten a lemon as mine is dead quiet, I have to have my ear up against the chassis to her the tranny inside the yggy, only a slight hum even then. I have been comparing the Bitfrost 2/64 with the Yggy LIM for a week now and can say I love both, but the Yggy is better in my system.
IMO, the sound stage is deeper and taller than the Bitfrost 2/64, but oddly, not wider.... The bass is the first thing I noticed between the two. The bass coming out of the Yggy is significantly better then the BF. This was just what I was looking for as I felt the Bitfrost could be a bit edgy paired to my GR Brutes. They both have the same DAC chip, but different PS and analog circuits and the bass quality and quantity out of the Yggy gives me the perception of reducing the edge I find in the BF when paired with my GR Brutes.
Then today when I hooked up my new CEC TL5 transport to the Yggy and loaded my favorite XRCD, Dire Straits Brothers in Arms. OMG, the Yggy came alive. My system has never sounded this good. I am truly shocked what a change a good transport made.
I have since taken my BF to my office and paired it with my G-Horn amp and Arendal small BS speakers, it ended up being perfect match.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=262169)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=262170)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=262171)
-
I have the F5M up and running in its temporary case. I like what I’m hearing so far. Seems more detailed and tighter in the bass than the AlephJ.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=262188)
-
I have the F5M up and running in its temporary case. I like what I’m hearing so far. Seems more detailed and tighter in the bass than the AlephJ.
Nice! Thanks for sharing. I'm still waiting for a few parts to finish assembling mine. I'll be tied up for the next couple weeks, so probably won't get a chance to finish until sometime in April.
I'm glad you are happy with the sound. I'm thinking of building two stereo amps with a built in active crossover to try and bypass my passive crossovers.
I've just got too many projects and not enough free time. :(
-
I have the F5M up and running in its temporary case. I like what I’m hearing so far. Seems more detailed and tighter in the bass than the AlephJ.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=262188)
With the size of those heat syncs, I think it could catch fire and it still wouldn't over heat :lol:
Joking aside....
What kind of power are you expecting this F5M will make into an 8 ohm load? 10 watts?
-
With the size of those heat syncs, I think it could catch fire and it still wouldn't over heat :lol:
Joking aside....
What kind of power are you expecting this F5M will make into an 8 ohm load? 10 watts?
25watts 8ohms 40watts 4ohms class A
-
Wow, that's a lot more than I expected.
I will have to take a deeper look into this design.
It might need to be my next project after I finish the Kegger EL34 SEUL amp I am currently building.
-
Wow, that's a lot more than I expected.
I will have to take a deeper look into this design.
It might need to be my next project after I finish the Kegger EL34 SEUL amp I am currently building.
It’s a push pull design which gives it more output. If you go to the diyaudio forum, in the Nelson Pass section, you can find the discussion. Nelson Pass has the document on the amp available in the first post. I will say that this is quickly becoming one of my very favorite amps.
-
It’s a push pull design which gives it more output. If you go to the diyaudio forum, in the Nelson Pass section, you can find the discussion. Nelson Pass has the document on the amp available in the first post. I will say that this is quickly becoming one of my very favorite amps.
Thanks :thumb:
I will check it out.
-
I have the F5M up and running in its temporary case. I like what I’m hearing so far. Seems more detailed and tighter in the bass than the AlephJ.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=262188)
After you spend some time with it, please give your listening impressions. I enjoy the Aleph J, but building an M2X. Looking for the next project, the F5M looks interesting. Nice clean build too, thank you for sharing!
-
After you spend some time with it, please give your listening impressions. I enjoy the Aleph J, but building an M2X. Looking for the next project, the F5M looks interesting. Nice clean build too, thank you for sharing!
Will do. I definitely need to put some hours on the amp and I will start comparing it directly with the. Aleph.
-
On the tube side of things, I just put together this Elekit TU-8900 this weekend that I got on sale. I have to say, this amp blows the TU-8600 away. I highly recommend it if you’re looking for a 300b set amp. I don’t think there are too many that will better this amp, especially for the price. It’s 9watts, which should be enough for the NX-Oticas or NX-tremes in an average size room.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=262401)
-
After going thru a bunch of DACs, having the Ayre AX-7e integrated (under $1500 used, and awesome), hearing the difference a proper crossover makes (and that the best way to get this is by NOT buying a retail speaker)... and then being parked in front of Danny's "Chip Amps" when I was there recently for a listen... I am quickly realizing that you can spend a fraction of the money you think you have to spend to have the best sound. I think you can spend a ton of money to have good sound, but it's unnecessary.
I suspect many people have a hard time getting over that mental hump.
Oh... and I saw those chip amps and started asking Danny about them... He mentioned they were a Folsom chip amp (maybe Folsom EC7293?) that someone did some other work to. 60w/8ohm... 120w/4ohm. They were effortless with the NX-Treme.
I am going to be listing a lot of gear for sale soon.
-
After going thru a bunch of DACs, having the Ayre AX-7e integrated (under $1500 used, and awesome), hearing the difference a proper crossover makes (and that the best way to get this is by NOT buying a retail speaker)... and then being parked in front of Danny's "Chip Amps" when I was there recently for a listen... I am quickly realizing that you can spend a fraction of the money you think you have to spend to have the best sound. I think you can spend a ton of money to have good sound, but it's unnecessary.
I suspect many people have a hard time getting over that mental hump.
Oh... and I saw those chip amps and starting asking Danny about them... He mentioned they were a Folsom chip amp (maybe Folsom EC7293?) that someone did some other work to. 60w/8ohm... 120w/4ohm. They were effortless with the NX-Treme.
I am going to be listing a lot of gear for sale soon.
Yup, the Folsom EC7293s are the best sounding chip amps I’ve come across to date. I’ve built a couple of them and they’re near the top of the list of amps I have. I will be reworking them into monoblocks eventually. As good as the chip amps are, the new NelsonPass F5m i posted above is really special and that can be built for under $500. I’d put it against just about any class A amp I’ve heard.
-
Yup, the Folsom EC7293s are the best sounding chip amps I’ve come across to date. I’ve built a couple of them and they’re near the top of the list of amps I have. I will be reworking them into monoblocks eventually. As good as the chip amps are, the new NelsonPass F5m i posted above is really special and that can be built for under $500. I’d put it against just about any class A amp I’ve heard.
I was reading thru that Nelson Pass F5m thread several weeks ago and meant to keep tabs on when the kit was going on sale. Since they are now out of stock, I signed up for alerts about the next batch of boards. I saw where someone asked about bridged mono operation, with a balanced input. Nelson mentioned THD impacts and also that the damping factor would be about half of the stereo version.
Is that a doable thing... you could build 2 of them and run them mono with balanced input?
As best I can tell, the Folsom EC7293 amps not buildable anymore.
-
I was reading thru that Nelson Pass F5m thread several weeks ago and meant to keep tabs on when the kit was going on sale. Since they are now out of stock, I signed up for alerts about the next batch of boards. I saw where someone asked about bridged mono operation, with a balanced input. Nelson mentioned THD impacts and also that the damping factor would be about half of the stereo version.
Is that a doable thing... you could build 2 of them and run them mono with balanced input?
You could do this but it would significantly change the sound characteristics since what makes this amp interesting is the dominant second harmonic distortion component. Running two in a balanced configuration would cancel the majority of the even harmonics.
-
You could do this but it would significantly change the sound characteristics since what makes this amp interesting is the dominant second harmonic distortion component. Running two in a balanced configuration would cancel the majority of the even harmonics.
Thank you for sharing that.
-
. As good as the chip amps are, the new NelsonPass F5m i posted above is really special and that can be built for under $500. I’d put it against just about any class A amp I’ve heard.
Very significant given the amps you have already heard, thanks for reporting! :thumb:
Best,
Anand.
-
After going thru a bunch of DACs, having the Ayre AX-7e integrated (under $1500 used, and awesome), hearing the difference a proper crossover makes (and that the best way to get this is by NOT buying a retail speaker)... and then being parked in front of Danny's "Chip Amps" when I was there recently for a listen... I am quickly realizing that you can spend a fraction of the money you think you have to spend to have the best sound. I think you can spend a ton of money to have good sound, but it's unnecessary.
I suspect many people have a hard time getting over that mental hump.
Oh... and I saw those chip amps and started asking Danny about them... He mentioned they were a Folsom chip amp (maybe Folsom EC7293?) that someone did some other work to. 60w/8ohm... 120w/4ohm. They were effortless with the NX-Treme.
I am going to be listing a lot of gear for sale soon.
I know you are a big Ayre guy. I have heard Danny’s system but have never heard Ayre gear. How does it compare?
-
The Pass F5m looks interesting. I'm not a diy amp builder, but maybe??? Any change to your opinion after more use? Thanks mkrawcz.
-
The Pass F5m looks interesting. I'm not a diy amp builder, but maybe??? Any change to your opinion after more use? Thanks mkrawcz.
Yea, it got better. :D This is the perfect amp to get into diy due to its simplicity and price. It also happens to be a true giant killer.
-
Yea, it got better. :D This is the perfect amp to get into diy due to its simplicity and price. It also happens to be a true giant killer.
I'm looking forward to getting mine finished. I had knee replacement surgery last month which unfortunately got in the way of my electronics projects. I did a second rev of my PCBs to fix a problem with a relay footprint and improve the DC servo design, and finished assembling one channel this past weekend. It seems to work well (checking on the scope), but the proof will be getting two channels hooked up to some speakers.
I'm building two stereo amps to be able to use them to try bi-amping my Line Forces with active crossovers.
-
I'm looking forward to getting mine finished. I had knee replacement surgery last month which unfortunately got in the way of my electronics projects. I did a second rev of my PCBs to fix a problem with a relay footprint and improve the DC servo design, and finished assembling one channel this past weekend. It seems to work well (checking on the scope), but the proof will be getting two channels hooked up to some speakers.
I'm building two stereo amps to be able to use them to try bi-amping my Line Forces with active crossovers.
Jay, hopefully your recovery is going well and those F5m's are going to light those Line Forces up.
-
I just read that LTA has come out with a tube DAC called the Aero. It cost $3600.
-
Here is my reworked F5M in a smaller chassis with a Diyaudio universal power supply. I have the amp bias all the way up and it sounds great.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263096)
-
And here is the AlephJ which will become an M2X this weekend if all my parts get delivered. For SS DIY, I can’t imagine anyone not loving them on something like NX-Oticas.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263097)
-
And here is the AlephJ which will become an M2X this weekend if all my parts get delivered. For SS DIY, I can’t imagine anyone not loving them on something like NX-Oticas.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263097)
Really nice build!!
I just finished the M2X Sunday and it sounds really good with the Mt View daughter card on the NX Studios, super fun build!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263050)
-
These builds are really nice.......
-
I just finished the M2X Sunday and it sounds really good with the Mt View daughter card on the NX Studios, super fun build!
I just got my M2X up and running. Your choice to build it was wise. :)
-
I just got my M2X up and running. Your choice to build it was wise. :)
As was yours! Very cool amp, and I love the way you can change the characteristics by changing the input daughter cards. It is definitely an outstanding amp! I highly recommend!
-
And here is the AlephJ which will become an M2X this weekend if all my parts get delivered. For SS DIY, I can’t imagine anyone not loving them on something like NX-Oticas.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263097)
You and Jaytor do a bunch of DIY amps. What are. you guys using for Preamps?
-
I'm looking forward to getting mine finished. I had knee replacement surgery last month which unfortunately got in the way of my electronics projects. I did a second rev of my PCBs to fix a problem with a relay footprint and improve the DC servo design, and finished assembling one channel this past weekend. It seems to work well (checking on the scope), but the proof will be getting two channels hooked up to some speakers.
I'm building two stereo amps to be able to use them to try bi-amping my Line Forces with active crossovers.
I might have asked previously but what are you using as a preamp?
-
I might have asked previously but what are you using as a preamp?
I'm currently using a DIY solid state preamp that uses a pair of AMB.org A20 line amplifiers in a balanced configured, powered by Salas UBIB shunt regulators. A balanced Khozmo stepped attenuator is used for volume control.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263471)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263472)
I am working on two new preamps. The first has gone through several iterations, and I'm almost done wrapping it up. It uses a balanced stepped attenuator using the AMB.org relay boards with my own Ardunio processor and code for control. The line stage uses a shunt regulated power supply (my own PCBs with a circuit based on the Salas SSHV2) and two 6SN7s in a parallel long tail pair (for each channel) with a cathode current source and a Lundahl balanced line output transformer. I originally started out using an Aikido design but decided I liked my design better.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=240636)
The second is a two chassis design loosely based on the Vacuum State RTP3D. I've finished the power supply (which also has the Arduino control). I've fabricated the line stage PCBs (which include the input selection, stepped attenuator, and line stage circuitry) but haven't started the build yet.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263473)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263474)
The second chassis will use two of these boards with a pair of shunt regulator boards in between.
-
Earlier in the month I bought an Ayre KX-R Twenty preamp. I am extremely happy with it. I had the KX-5 Twenty prior to this, and a friend talked me into selling it to him. It is also excellent.
Ayre has what they call a Variable Gain Transimpedance setup. There are individual resistors for every step of volume. And the gain varies along the way, so the signal to noise ratio stays at it maximum, throughout the volume range. The KX-5 Twenty has a very similar setup, with the difference being parts like $7 resistors... and 400 of them.
Here is a video of how the volume control works. It's like having a little dude in there hardwiring each volume change.
https://youtu.be/8ma3dwRDIPk?si=s3SrI1JTAVO-rvMk
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263490&size=xlarge)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263486&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263487&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263489&size=large)
-
I'm currently using a DIY solid state preamp that uses a pair of AMB.org A20 line amplifiers in a balanced configured, powered by Salas UBIB shunt regulators. A balanced Khozmo stepped attenuator is used for volume control.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263471)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263472)
I am working on two new preamps. The first has gone through several iterations, and I'm almost done wrapping it up. It uses a balanced stepped attenuator using the AMB.org relay boards with my own Ardunio processor and code for control. The line stage uses a shunt regulated power supply (my own PCBs with a circuit based on the Salas SSHV2) and two 6SN7s in a parallel long tail pair (for each channel) with a cathode current source and a Lundahl balanced line output transformer. I originally started out using an Aikido design but decided I liked my design better.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=240636)
The second is a two chassis design loosely based on the Vacuum State RTP3D. I've finished the power supply (which also has the Arduino control). I've fabricated the line stage PCBs (which include the input selection, stepped attenuator, and line stage circuitry) but haven't started the build yet.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263473)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263474)
The second chassis will use two of these boards with a pair of shunt regulator boards in between.
WOW. You lost me at this is what I'm building....lol. The first looks nice but the second looks very stout. WOW. You lost me at this is what I'm building....lol. The first looks nice but the second looks very stout. Is that Attenuator in the second picture a really high end attenuator? It is the same that is used in a preamp I'm looking at purchasing.
-
Earlier in the month I bought an Ayre KX-R Twenty preamp. I am extremely happy with it. I had the KX-5 Twenty prior to this, and a friend talked me into selling it to him. It is also excellent.
Ayre has what they call a Variable Gain Transimpedance setup. There are individual resistors for every step of volume. And the gain varies along the way, so the signal to noise ratio stays at it maximum, throughout the volume range. The KX-5 Twenty has a very similar setup, with the difference being parts like $7 resistors... and 400 of them.
Here is a video of how the volume control works. It's like having a little dude in there hardwiring each volume change.
https://youtu.be/8ma3dwRDIPk?si=s3SrI1JTAVO-rvMk
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263490&size=xlarge)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263486&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263487&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263489&size=large)
Did you notice an improvement from your other preamp? It is one of the nicest preamps I have seen.
-
Earlier in the month I bought an Ayre KX-R Twenty preamp. I am extremely happy with it. I had the KX-5 Twenty prior to this, and a friend talked me into selling it to him. It is also excellent.
That's a pretty cool looking unit. Bet it sounds great!
-
Hey guys, I'm new here and just ordered an NX Studio to build. Does anyone have experience matching these speakers with an Anthem STR? Or should I look into tubes?
-
Welcome to AudioCircle, Dan!
STR amp has plenty of power for NX Studio. It is relatively neutral, and should be a good match, imo.
-
Welcome to AudioCircle, Dan!
STR amp has plenty of power for NX Studio. It is relatively neutral, and should be a good match, imo.
Thank you! I'm excited to start the build and I can't wait to hear these speakers!
-
Did you notice an improvement from your other preamp? It is one of the nicest preamps I have seen.
I think it is better than the KX-5 Twenty, but the difference in price does not reflect the difference in performance - at all. In fact, it was because the KX-5 Twenty was so good that I had confidence in getting the KX-R Twenty. The differences are mostly due to higher cost parts. Apparently the resistors are much more expensive than the ones in the KX-5 Twenty. And there is another important difference... the input switching is done the same way as the volume. It's a more "direct" way of doing it compared to the KX-5 Twenty. Ayre is very friendly / shares details about the design of the product. Great guys.
-
I think it is better than the KX-5 Twenty, but the difference in price does not reflect the difference in performance - at all. In fact, it was because the KX-5 Twenty was so good that I had confidence in getting the KX-R Twenty. The differences are mostly due to higher cost parts. Apparently the resistors are much more expensive than the ones in the KX-5 Twenty. And there is another important difference... the input switching is done the same way as the volume. It's a more "direct" way of doing it compared to the KX-5 Twenty. Ayre is very friendly / shares details about the design of the product. Great guys.
You are getting that last 5%.
-
I think it is better than the KX-5 Twenty, but the difference in price does not reflect the difference in performance - at all. In fact, it was because the KX-5 Twenty was so good that I had confidence in getting the KX-R Twenty. The differences are mostly due to higher cost parts. Apparently the resistors are much more expensive than the ones in the KX-5 Twenty. And there is another important difference... the input switching is done the same way as the volume. It's a more "direct" way of doing it compared to the KX-5 Twenty. Ayre is very friendly / shares details about the design of the product. Great guys.
I am leaning towards getting an Ayre QX-5 twenty DAC. It has the volume control, so I don't have to get a preamp immediately. I talked to Jake at Ayre and he said they are coming out with a streamer soon but he didn't know there would be a noticeable difference in sound from the Ethernet card. He actually mentioned that without me asking. People in the forums really like the Ayre gear.