[busb]

Shouldn't we make a blanket statement saying that well implemented Class A, A/B, and D amplification sounds better than poorly implemented Class A, A/B, and D amplification and leave it at that. I just want an amplifier that sounds good to me. Who cares what Class of amplification it is.

Actually I do! I like elegant solutions that reduce power consumption. Having therefore borrowed one to then find it's SQ is far better than anything else I've heard, more than ices the cake. Having said that, I get your point & can't agree more.
"It's the sound quality, stupid!" is a phrase that springs to mind. As long as class D inherently sounds no worse than class A/B & is reliable - it's a win win.
I also think that dynamic range is a big red herring here. What struck me with the huge amount of detail the Primare A34.2 brought to the table was a palpable increase in ambience where with acoustic instruments played together in an acoustic space (for example), I, & other listeners could differentiate those instruments in space & hear far more of their character or timbre. The same applied to electronic music despite the acoustic space being generated. Even listening to TV programs or films meant that background low-level incidental sounds like a passing car or clatter of a bicycle mounting a kerb could add an extra dimension to realism. If low level dynamic range was an issue, would myself & others be able to hear so much more?
Although I've heard the phrase "too much detail", I'm not exactly sure what this means - to me, it's like saying too much sound quality. If detail detracts, then I can understand it. Like most things in audio, the quality of the recording is crucial but hearing so much more was revelatory. Like all good equipment, poor quality still sounded poor.

[Freo-1]

With the new up-coming energy regulation laws in Europe, and will probably become law in the US, won't that force all amp companies to go Class D?

I certainly hope not!  That seems a bit draconian.   


No offense, but energy savings does not enter into the equation when it comes to sound quality.  The only aspect I care about is how it sounds compared to live (unamplified) music. 

From an engineering aspect, as pointed out, as one moves up the ladder from Class A through the various topologies, the incoming signal get modified more and more.  It is not unreasonable to expect a sonic tradeoff as the signal gets added processing to the output speakers. 

Perhaps one day, Class D will compete with the best Class AB amps.  I would say right now they are completive with moderate conventional amps, but not the top end.  It is not an easy engineering feat to achieve this.  Only time will tell how this progresses. 

[doug s.]

"...Perhaps one day, Class D will compete with the best Class AB amps..."

that day already passed...  where you been hiding?   

doug s.

[Freo-1]

that day already passed...  where you been hiding?   

doug s.

The amps at the at any of the shows or shops certainly has not! 

The only thing that passed is the hype.   

[doug s.]

Not at any of the shows or shops!  The only thing that passed is the hype.   

there are a slew of class-d amps that have garnered favorable rewiews, comparing them to respected class ab amps.  (and i am not even taking into consideration the ncore's.)  if you don't like them, that's a different issue.   

some folks don't like tube amps.  others don't like s/s amps.  it doesn't mean someone is correct if they say "tube amps can't compete w/solid state amps".  or if they say "solid state amps cannot compete w/tube amps".

your statement is simply factually incorrect.  the best class d amps do compete with the best class ab amps.  period.  even if you think all class d amps suck, it doesn't change the facts.

sorry if my kharma ran over your dogma...   

doug s.

[Freo-1]

there are a slew of class-d amps that have garnered favorable rewiews, comparing them to respected class ab amps.  (and i am not even taking into consideration the ncore's.)  if you don't like them, that's a different issue.   

some folks don't like tube amps.  others don't like s/s amps.  it doesn't mean someone is correct if they say "tube amps can't compete w/solid state amps".  or if they say "solid state amps cannot compete w/tube amps".

your statement is simply factually incorrect.  the best class d amps do compete with the best class ab amps.  period.  even if you think all class d amps suck, it doesn't change the facts.

sorry if my kharma ran over your dogma...   

doug s.

Reviews on amps are all over the place, so one has to take them with grains of salt.  The statements about how the amps work, and the modifications/switching involved are factually correct.  What IS in dispute is how audible the deltas in amp designs are, and that is both objective and subjective argument that will never be solved here or agreed upon.  I do agree with your statement about tubes vs. solid state amps (some folks like them, while others, not so much).   


In order to accurately assess qualities of a given amp in your system, you actually have to have time with the product for a period under various listening conditions to get a handle on it really sounds. Whenever I’ve done that with an assortment of Class D amps, they (in the final analysis) just do not sound as good (to me) as an amp along the lines of a Pass Labs/Threshold, or one of my Tech Buddy’s DIY tube amps.  From reading up and researching “how they work”, can see why this may be the case.

So, dogma or not, do not agree that the best Class D sounds as good (yet) as the best conventional amps (and really, who cares if there is agreement on this or not, anyway?).  It does come down to what each individual likes/dislikes in their system.  For example, a set of speakers that are of lower efficiency certainly could sound better with a higher powered Class D amp than a moderate powered conventional amp.
 

[medium jim]

I think were the discussion took a left turn was when those who honestly posted their feelings about Class D amplification and the comments came in that we are closed minded, and that was the nice thing said about those not in the Class D camp.

Freo-1 was on point with his post, it is a personal choice and I too do not understand why some are so forceful in trying to convince those who have reservations that they have come of age and or have exceeded all other forms of amplification.  It does bother me that some want to attempt to diminish others enjoyment of listening to music. 

Jim 

[wushuliu]

'Best' implies a broad spectrum given the price range of audio gear. If a ClassDaudio amp 'only' competes in the let's say <$3k range, that's plenty fine for a broke 'mid-fi' guy like me...

[wushuliu]

He’s not bullying anyone.  He is simply stating (nicely) that he is not buying into the group think mentality, and it’s OK to disagree about Class D.  After all, the name of the bloody thread is “Class D vs. the rest”, so that is what is being discussed.

One should not “assume” about what folks have or have not heard.  So, if some people like the latest Class D offerings, great!  There is a lot to like.  For others that do not like them as much, that is fine also.  It does seem that (some of) the Class D supports are taking critical assessments about this topology a bit too personal.  From an engineering standpoint, it’s not all that hard to work out why some folks are not as happy with Class D.  On the other hand, have not seen any engineering argument as to why Class D has advanced to equal or better conventional amps.

Isn't the lack of crossover distortion in Class D one of it's selling point?

I am a little torn about my experience w/ class d amps because prior to the IRS2092-based classdaudio.com amps I have found class d to be a mixed bag: Tripaths (Tk2050 - same as in Virtue, TA2020/24) I liked but didn't wow me. Panny digital receiver, same and for similar reasons. Unfortunately the CDA/SDS amps are the only ones using the IR chip (I think Esoteric has one model), so there isn't a broader commercial consensus on whether that chip is indeed a step ahead in class d designs. My limited experience is that it is.

Tube folks get *real* personal if you say they are just distortion generators that provide a euphonic experience and not much else. People perpetuate that meme on an almost daily basis.

[fredgarvin]

I have that Tripath in my office, and the Panasonic xr45, which I use in my Home theater. I think the Tripath, in my main system, provides more depth and layering than the Panny and the center image is really locked in. There is a clarity in both that is impressive. I've preferred them over the Ice amp I had in here.

[Freo-1]

+1   

Seriously, wouldn't you rather have this? (you know you would)





Over this?

[doug s.]

I think were the discussion took a left turn was when those who honestly posted their feelings about Class D amplification and the comments came in that we are closed minded, and that was the nice thing said about those not in the Class D camp.

Freo-1 was on point with his post, it is a personal choice and I too do not understand why some are so forceful in trying to convince those who have reservations that they have come of age and or have exceeded all other forms of amplification.  It does bother me that some want to attempt to diminish others enjoyment of listening to music. 

Jim

i think i made it quite clear that, if freo is making a personal choice, i am in agreement.  but, correct me if i am wrong - freo, imo, is not making i personal choice, but he is stating that class ab amps are categorically better than class d amps.  period.  and if you disagree w/him, you are wrong.  it is this that i take exception to...

the same arguments are had re: redbook vs winyl - imo, redbook is inferior to winyl.  but that doesn't make is so for those who prefer redbook.

ymmv,

doug s.

[doug s.]

seriously.  i have not heard either of those two amps.  but, from what i have read on the internet, i would take the ncores w/o hesitation over that other monster amp.  seriously.  unless i was not going to use either, but sell.  then, i'd take the monster, sell it and buy the ncores.   

doug s.

+1   

Seriously, wouldn't you rather have this? (you know you would)





Over this?

[jtwrace]

Seriously, wouldn't you rather have this? (you know you would)

Actually no,  After owning 100+ lb Class A mono blocks it's so nice to have little amps that don't heat my room and that I can move to clean and not dread moving. 

[HT cOz]

I have a ICE amp 125asx series that I enjoy and I also have a tube integrated that I enjoy <- check out my avatar ain't she a beauty.

Last time I went to Baskin Robins, I noticed 31 flavors even though Vanilla is the best .

I posted the first thread about Ncore on this forum and have been excited for it for a long time. I may even buy one someday. Bruno did publish a paper in which he outlined the new novel ideas that he implemented with Ncore. Perhaps people who post here with authority would be well served in purchasing that paper and reading it???  It's probably a good place to start in understanding what is different about this implimentation.   

[Freo-1]

i think i made it quite clear that, if freo is making a personal choice, i am in agreement.  but, correct me if i am wrong - freo, imo, is not making i personal choice, but he is stating that class ab amps are categorically better than class d amps.  period.  and if you disagree w/him, you are wrong.  it is this that i take exception to...

the same arguments are had re: redbook vs winyl - imo, redbook is inferior to winyl.  but that doesn't make is so for those who prefer redbook.

ymmv,

doug s.

Doug, you are close, but not quite. I’ll take the hit for not being clearer. 

Actually, I’m stating that Class A is the closest technology available to a “wire with gain”, followed by Class AB, then Class D, etc.  I’m speaking strictly from an engineering standpoint as to how much the signal needs to be modified/switched to obtain an output waveform.

I’m stating my preference based on what I’ve heard from the various amps over the years I’ve owned them (worked on them, updated them, etc).  I’m NOT stating that anyone is wrong!  For God’s sakes, this is audio after all, where personal preferences still rule the day.  Just trying to correlate what is heard (to me) as to how it operates. Truth be told, the speakers have more at play with the sound than the amp with regards to distortion and realism.  The choice of amp power output with a given speaker has more effect than the amp topology itself.  Having said that, personally, with the right speaker, it is my subjective opinion that Class A will sound better than ANY other amp.

So, hope that clears up misconceptions.  One of the limitations with this medium is one cannot look another in the eye, and read/respond when comms are not being taken as intended.  Spoken/written communications has been said to be only 20% effective.

[Freo-1]

Actually no,  After owning 100+ lb Class A mono blocks it's so nice to have little amps that don't heat my room and that I can move to clean and not dread moving.

I posted that tounge in cheek 

[medium jim]

Freo-1:

Thanks for the clarification.  For me it is a personal choice, after hearing it in person. I buy what my ears like and it doesn't matter what class it is. With that said, my ears like tubes, that is not to say that a non-tube amp will capture my attention if it sounds good to my ears.

I plan to attend the upcoming show in Newport Beach, CA, no doubt, there will be a bevy of Class D strutting their thing.

Jim

[Freo-1]

Freo-1:

Thanks for the clarification.  For me it is a personal choice, after hearing it in person. I buy what my ears like and it doesn't matter what class it is. With that said, my ears like tubes, that is not to say that a non-tube amp will capture my attention if it sounds good to my ears.

I plan to attend the upcoming show in Newport Beach, CA, no doubt, there will be a bevy of Class D strutting their thing.

Jim

No worries, Mate!

I’ve bought quite a few Class D amps over the years, as I like the concept of leaving the amp on all the time.  The no feedback aspect of its operation, along with no class B switching, is appealing.  The ability to feed a digital input to an integrated amp (a la Sony PLM approach) is a really cool idea that I wish would have caught on (sadly, it has not).

However, the reality is, to my ears, a design like a Nelson Pass XA amp STILL sounds better than any other amp topology I’ve heard to date.  That is because it is a simpler design, with less gain stages, as well as NO switching to speak of.  Now, I still love tubes, as I’m working on a 12SN7/1625 mono block set.  I’ll also continue to look at Class D amps, as I do think down the road that will become the predominant topology.

The reasons I kept posting links was to get folks to understand how the different amp design approaches work, and what (if any) audible effects can be heard from them.

[medium jim]

Freo-1:

I run my amps in triode for the most part, but funny enough, I find some genre's of music actually sounds better in ultra, rock, the blues mostly. Could be the way they were mastered.

If I recall correctly, in class a/b, you lose the even harmonics.  I would think that the same holds true for switching amps (class d). Does this sound right, or is it possible for class d to produce all the harmonics even though they're switching amps?

Jim