[arro222]

Have not owned many systems since 1970. Have heard $1500-$100K set ups. Have read many,many reviews that gush on about a product of what it is or not. Have heard all the audiophile terms of warm, dark, Prat, etc, etc.
In relationship to amps or integrated, what I need to know is how much does one have to spend to get one simple description which I rarely hear and that is... "real". I do not care what the topology is, I want the most real sound for the cheapest money whether it is 3K-12K.
To give an idea of the most "real" sounding system I've heard to date goes back to 2011 or 12 at a show in Las Vegas. It was all ARC stuff with Verity speakers. This was 35K worth of amp and pre along with their 9K player and the 12.5K speakers. Not something I can reach but I have the old Proac studio 100's that I believe can deliver a pretty good sound with the right support.

[Lol999]

One of the best speakers I heard were the Quad electrostatics years ago, an LP of westminster choir singing played through a Linn LP12 turntable was breathtaking,  but one of the most pleasurable to me as they had a superb soundstage and 3d imagery were B&W CM2 speakers.

[JLM]

One of the best speakers I heard were the Quad electrostatics years ago, an LP of westminster choir singing played through a Linn LP12 turntable was breathtaking,  but one of the most pleasurable to me as they had a superb soundstage and 3d imagery were B&W CM2 speakers.

+1 for the Quad electrostatics, unfortunately they're not macro-dynamic, have limited output, and don't do bass.  Heard from from outside a very crowded showroom in '09 but they sounded real. 

arro222, you mentioned "... with the right support".  IMO that hits the nail on the head.  Amp/speaker interface is the only audio system synergy that can't be argued away.  Pick speakers first (for the given room) then the appropriate amp.  I'd start by asking your speaker manufacturer/designer what amp they recommend/used in final product development.  That's just one reason why I'm a proponent of active speakers (who should know better what amp makes their speaker 'sing'?).

If I had to give a blanket recommendation the Benchmark AHB2 ($3,000 USD, 100 wpc/8 ohms stereo, 380 watts/8 ohms mono) pushes a lot of my buttons from specification/design/company perspectives (like you said, reviews are a dime a dozen).  It would help if you could better define what "real" means to you (we all have sonic priorities).

[timind]

How much are concert ticket prices where you live?

[orientalexpress]

yep, i haven't any speakers that sound like a live orchestra symphony ,live jazz club yet.good luck chasing it

[arro222]

Let me preface: I played trumpet professionally. What came to my ears was distorted most of the time by my own trumpet. During rehearsal, if i sat out a lick in front of the band, nothing I've ever heard nor will ever will match the sound energy of an actual band in front of you. So lets get off that piece that I've heard so many times before.

There is audio equipment that comes "close" to the timbres, sound wave pulse, initial transients, decay and clarity of live music. I know some think that anything like this cannot be achieved with anything less than with speakers of over 100 efficiency, small wattage s.e.t amp with nothing but a turntable as a "source".

A valid question is "what is real to me". My answer would be that if i'm not looking, It would be difficult to discern whether a voice or instrument is in the room or coming through speakers. Herein lies the difference: no massed ensemble feeling will ever be procured with audio equipment. But that single voice or small group of acoustics can be duplicated in my mind with astonishing results with a synergistic set up.

If I rephrase my original question, have any of you heard this closeness for reasonable money meaning below 20K.

[arro222]

 

If I had to give a blanket recommendation the Benchmark AHB2 ($3,000 USD, 100 wpc/8 ohms stereo, 380 watts/8 ohms mono) pushes a lot of my buttons from specification/design/company perspectives (like you said, reviews are a dime a dozen).  It would help if you could better define what "real" means to you (we all have sonic priorities).

Thanks JLM for your perspective and solid contribution. Was this amp you mention connected to a pre-amp from the same company?

[Letitroll98]

A reminder that this is the Cheap & Cheerful circle and the limit on total systems is $1,000.  Thus all recommendations would have to adhere to the guidelines.  Alternately the thread can be moved to an appropriate circle if anyone has any ideas.

[JakeJ]

I vote for "Enclosures" as speakers have the largest overall effect on a system's sound character.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=181.0

[FullRangeMan]

In relationship to amps or integrated, what I need to know is how much does one have to spend to get one simple description which I rarely hear and that is... "real". I do not care what the topology is, I want the most real sound for the cheapest money whether it is 3K-12K.

My personal opinion on hi-fi is a performance similar to live music is not desirable to home audio at all, live music as Tha Absolute Sound reference to the home music is a joke, a impossible to reach target, it is just a motto HP created to his magazine name, people dont should take it seriously otherwise it will lead to frustation, breaking the bank or wife protest.

What audiophiles need is a beautiful sound to his ears, it not need to sound the same as real music or close to it, it need to sound good to the owner personal taste.

In this way the two best SS amps I have heard so far was the Jeff Rowland Model 1 and the Rega Brio.

[Lol999]

I've heard alot of systems over the years with some top end stuff but the system that gave me most pleasure was this:
Rega Planar 2 - 1st straight arm model - £150
Creek Cas4040 amp - £120
Mordaunt Short Festival speakers 2/h £40

It had a soundstage to die for and wonderful 3d imagery.

Years later I spent £250 s/h on a planar 3 with motor upgrade and upgraded arm - didn't enjoy it at all.

Perhaps I'm just weird.

[Tyson]

I'd say that box speakers, especially constant directivity speakers like the Gedlee speakers, will get you the closest to a "live" feel from a dynamics and energy standpoint. 

On the other hand, open baffle speakers like the Spatial Audio X2 give you a much better sense of scale and acoustic space, but lack the punch and energy that the Gedlees have. 

Which is best?  Pick your poison   For me I listen to mostly large scale classical, so OB speakers match that preference perfectly.  If I listened to more Jazz or Rock, the Gedlees would be my choice. 

Both are exceptional speakers, although neither is cheap - maybe I'm posting in the wrong circle....

[rollo]

We listen to reproduced sound. Live sound character can vary. There are warm rooms, bright rooms and so on. I play the Trumpet as well. Well I try anyway.
To my ears the Trumpet can sound different in different rooms. So Fullrangeman hit the nail on the head. Almost. We would desire a sound that is similar in character to our favorite live venue.
You like a rich sound, a detailed sound, a bright sound. All good. Just not for everyone. For me a piano must sound like a piano. Sinatra must sound like a baritone not tenor.
My taste for character would be a small jazz ensemble playing in Carnegie Hall not Lincoln center. Rich vs bright per say. I desire the Sax to melt me away not frighten me with over detailed sound.
Now as far as the Absolute Sound is concerned in IMHO Lamm gear has succeeded in that regard. Well according to the Absolute
 Sound publication and my ears.
After over 50 years chasing that sound with all types of systems I have learned what offers what. Now it is SET and 102db efficient speakers. For me the best yet.
Everything but full orchestral music is as real as real gets for me.


charles

[jtwrace]

I'd say that box speakers, especially constant directivity speakers like the Gedlee speakers, will get you the closest to a "live" feel from a dynamics and energy standpoint. 

....and you haven't heard the JBL M2!  As a previous owner of the Abbeys and current owner of the M2's it's quite incredible. 

[arro222]

My personal opinion on hi-fi is a performance similar to live music is not desirable to home audio at all, live music as Tha Absolute Sound reference to the home music is a joke, a impossible to reach target, it is just a motto HP created to his magazine name, people dont should take it seriously otherwise it will lead to frustation, breaking the bank or wife protest.

What audiophiles need is a beautiful sound to his ears, it not need to sound the same as real music or close to it, it need to sound good to the owner personal taste.

In this way the two best SS amps I have heard so far was the Jeff Rowland Model 1 and the Rega Brio.

Here is where the paradox lies. I have attempted to bridge subjective evaluation as to what others may enjoy listening to. For me, i'm not into "beautiful". I don't know why that is but it may have to do with what I think comes along with "beautiful" and for me, that has been "cloudy".
 I thought "real" would be more objective to clear away all the elaborate and mis direction phrases professional reviewers give. I'm not into "analogy" such as what is given by these people and find it mostly aggravating.  The only worthwhile analogy for me is to read "This equipment gave a presentation that sounded like actual singers and instrument".  is to hear music as close to thinking it is immediate as can be. So whatever carries to the ears as to what makes actuality in my head is what I'm looking for.

What I've stumbled on that produces this pretty well in my own living room are the Studio 100's with the lowly and pundit clad Primare I21 with the Primare DVD26 and Mogami cabling. Used to have Speltz but these wires are more revealing and refined to me. This match is pretty close. Now what I've also had just before this is the Manley Stingray with a Wadia 302 and MIT wiring. The Primare stuff sounds more real to me.

There is no "sterility" now to the Primare with this cabling. It sounds pretty natural for relatively low money.

[arro222]

....and you haven't heard the JBL M2!  As a previous owner of the Abbeys and current owner of the M2's it's quite incredible.

I can bet they are.  I'm thinking they may have similar sound to the JTR Noesis series. Gives me the jones for an 8 watt s.e.t with the 104 efficiency speakers just to see if music production would be more palpable.

[arro222]

A reminder that this is the Cheap & Cheerful circle and the limit on total systems is $1,000.  Thus all recommendations would have to adhere to the guidelines.  Alternately the thread can be moved to an appropriate circle if anyone has any ideas.

I don't even know how I got to where I got to post my original thought. Also, having little if any familiarity with this site, I presently have no clue as to where my post should be.

[Folsom]

The sound of the studio and production is a major part of any playback system. You can try to get around it, but when you do, you're injecting a lot of things that basically make it sound less real in other ways.

So, are you ok with the fact that some recordings will be awesome, and others will not be? Some will sound live, some won't.

[Early B.]

Nothing under $20K will get you close to "real."

The reason is simple --- "real" requires high quality parts put together by exceptional designers. The cabling alone will cost into the thousands. We all know price isn't the best indicator of quality; nevertheless, there's typically a huge improvement in sound between a $40 tweeter and a $400 tweeter. And let's not even talk about what it costs to get "real" bass. 

[JakeJ]

My experience supports Early B.'s statement.  It has taken me years to realize and get my current system to that point.  Is it 100% there no but I think I'm in the mid-90 percentile and am very happy.  It's down to tweaks that will flesh out that last bit.