[covermye]

I've always been more of a home theater buff, but want to dive into the more serious 2-channel stereo hobby.  I was hoping for some suggestions from the group here for a "reasonably priced" (open ended, I know) setup to get me started...

For some background, I've got a pair of VMPS SuperTower/R SE's (dynamic version with planar mids) for my mains in my well-dampened HT room (appx. 15' W x 23' L x 8 1/2' H).  I currently drive all my HT speakers with a rack full of amps that reside in the next room, and include mostly NAD 208/2700 series amplifiers and a couple of QSC PLX series amps on the subs.

What I'm looking for is an "entry level" or better CD player / DAC / Pre / Amp that I'll store on a short rack in the actual HT room.  I have room for a shorter, nice looking rack between my left main and center speaker.  For 2 channel listening, I'll just disconnect the leads comming from the HT rack and connect the leads from this newer system.  Enough boring info there, though...

I'd like to go tubes for the pre and also at least the amp on the mids/highs.  Please give me some basic suggestions on the following equipment for further research, keeping in mind a somewhat limited budget ($2500 or less).  I have no problem with used equipment, either.

 - CD Player?
 - DAC?
 - Preamp?
 - Amp(s)?

Very preliminary research has led me to the following as initial research material:

 - CD:  ??
 - Dac:  Nearly a no-brainer for a modified Art DI/O... which modification would fit my performance target and budget though?
 - Pre:  Passive Creek?  Mapletree?  Jolida integrated??
 - Amp(s):  Jolida 302/502 (as stated above) on the mids/highs with one of the NAD amps from my HT rack on the woofers...

Please get me steered in the right direction.  I'm looking forward to this new adventure into the unknown...

[Hantra]

Nearly a no-brainer for a modified Art DI/O... which modification would fit my performance target and budget though?

Do some more research.  Read some reviews comparing the modded DI/O's to other DAC's.  IMO, you can beat any iteration of the DI/O for much less money with something non-oversampling.

As far as your other preliminary choices go, I'd be very careful bi-amping with different topologies.  In theory, the NAD should be better for the bass, and the Jolida better for the highs.  But in practice, you could get something really nasty when you deal with crossing over AND changing complete topologies simultaneously.

The Jolida stuff is good gear though.

B

[Tyson]

The Van Alstine gear mates extremely well with the VMPS speakers (I have the FetValve 550ex amp and Transcendance 7 preamp w/ my RM40's).    There is a particular synergy between these 2 units that does delicate sounds and driving dynamics with equal aplomb.

For a DAC, I like the Mensa Plus from Bolder Cables, but for less $$ the Channel Islands DAC is also good.  I prefered both of these to the Scott Nixon DAC I had a while back.

[covermye]

Thanks, guys.  Remember the budget, though.  That's why I was looking at options such as the modified DI/O as opposed to a more "elegant" DAC.  Ditto for the amp/pre-amp.

Does anybody have any experience with any passive pre-amps, and if so, what amp was it paired with?  Obviously, I'm looking for a "minimalist" approach here to keep things simple originally, and work my way from there.  Hence I'm leaning toward a simpler pre/amp combo or an integrated, like Jolida's offerings...

Please, keep up the suggestions...

[Hantra]

That's why I was looking at options such as the modified DI/O as opposed to a more "elegant" DAC.

Well, IMO, you can get a MUCH more "elegant" DAC for less money than a modded DI/O.  Take a look at the Scott Nixon TubeDAC, which walks all over the highly-modded DI/O's (and I'm no longer the only one here who thinks so).  

Integrated is the way to go for amps on a budget.  I think one of the best pieces of gear I've ever heard is one I own, and that's the Plinius 8200 MkII.  You can pick up a nice used one for $1500 or so. . .

B

[warnerwh]

Covermye: Wondered whatever happened to you as you are one of the few people with the same speakers I have. I'm using a Channel Island Dac stock and like it alot. I've used California Audio Alpha, MSB III, Theta and Krell and the Channel Island gives them all a run for their money especially at it's price. The Channel Island can be had for 300 new delivered. PM me for a source if you need to.  For a preamp you don't want to skimp. I've found these VMPS speakers will reveal upstream components very well. I'm using and ARC LS 16 with NOS Sylvania tubes which is not very tubey but very neutral and is amazingly good overall, easily besting the Krell I was using.  You can get the LS 8 MKII which just has less features but is basically the same for about 800.00.  Frank Van Alstine may still have an amp like Tyson's with a one year warranty for 1200.00. It's slightly different (less power)but I've noticed it's hard to find Van Alstine's stuff used which says alot.  My transport is just a Sony DVD player with a modded Kenwood 7500 sitting on top.  Using the tube pre with an SS amp isn't a bad option, this is assuming you're not that familiar with the direction the tubes in both the pre and amp are going to take the sound. It can easily get slow and mushy real fast but then again it's really personal taste here.  If you're willing to use one of the NAD amps for awhile this could get you by and sound good.  Good luck

[Carlman]

I know the original poster has some very sophisticated equipment for HT but, since he's new to 2-channel and looking for 'entry level' gear, I thought this thread would provide good info for people starting 2-channel systems.  If I'm wrong, let me know and I'll move it back to 2-channel.
-Carl

[Tbadder1]

Okay, this isn't exactly what you want, but why not go out and find a High Fidelity Preamp/CD 24?  What you get for 1300 (Demo/used price on Audiogon) is your CD transport, DAC, and Pre-amp in one piece.  There's a lot of trickle down technology from their expensive NuVista products, and you got 1200 left for your amp (how about a used BelCanto EVO2 digital amp at 125 watts per?)  I know there no tubes here, but this is all killer equipment (though many here don't like HF) you'll have tons of space, it'll rock the house, and you'll hear so much detail that your CD collection will sound virtually brand new!

Peace Love Dope
Dan

[covermye]

The High Fidelity piece sounds interesting.  I was unable to find their website or a link to that particular piece of equipment, though.  Can you please provide me with a link?

Same with the Van Alstine equipment.  Very interesting design...

As far as a transport, I've read that many use some pretty "pedestrian" gear such as some of Sony's DVD players.  How critical is the transport if I go with an outboard DAC like the Channel Island unit?  Example:  I've got NAD 502 and 541 CD players right now.  The 502 is rackmounted for an aux. digital audio source, while the 541 is free to use in this system if there would be no problem with using it for a transport.  Again, be patient with this "young grasshopper" as I'm still learning, but what would I have to do to gain any quality over something like the NAD 541 as a transport only?

Back to the amplifier part:  I really want to find out what all the "fuss" is about with tube-based equipment, and I do have the capability to "upgrade" later, so for my initial amp choice, I'm sort of leaning toward a tube-based solution initially.  Would Jolida's 302B have any hope of driving my speakers to a satisfactory result alone?  Or if I go this way would I be forced to bi-amp?

The NAD 2700's I have at my disposal have GOBS of current output and also level controls, allowing me a somewhat decent chance of integrating one of them on the woofers when passively bi-amping with something such as the Jolida 302B.  I know this presents its own set of problems (bi amping and integration), but I'm a tinker-er and am willing to accept the challenge if you more "seasoned veterans" think this avenue would allow me to attain the goal I'm aiming for (a first high-quality 2 channel system allwoing me to "get my feet wet").  Another option for the low-end if I go the bi-amp direction is a Carver ZR1600 which would also allow me to experiment with it stand-alone, using the Jolida as a preamp only.  

Again, I'm an adventurer and not beyond some DIY mods, so I wouldn't be afraid of trying something along these lines...  Matter of fact, I think I may have something with the ZR1600 / Jolida 302B combo, possibly.  Any comments here, remembering my goal?

Keep the ideas comming, guys.  I appreciate them!

[doug s.]

Well, IMO, you can get a MUCH more "elegant" DAC for less money than a modded DI/O. Take a look at the Scott Nixon TubeDAC, which walks all over the highly-modded DI/O's (and I'm no longer the only one here who thinks so).

hey hantra, since there's at least as many folk who disagree w/ya about this as agree, doncha tink that's a li'l bit of hyperbole there?  

covermye, bottom line is ya need to try these dacs for yerself.  *i'd* like to try the Ack! non-oversampled dac, ($450) based upon info i've heard about it...  free in-home trial awailable...  if i had more $$$ ($995), i'd also wanna try the mytek & benchmark pro-audio dacs.  the di/o is a hair better than the cia dac, imo, but it's also a hair more $$$  

for pre, i'd have to go toobed, & since i need remote, i'd have to go w/a melos sha-gold-r or its last iteration, the maestro.  if ya don't need a remote, there's a plethora of chinese (and other) gear, some of wh9ich is mentioned here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=5292&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

i also like toobed amps, but since i dunno what is good enuff, w/enuff toobed power for yer rig, at an affordable price, i'd stick w/a used electrocompaniet aw60ftt or aw220.  or an older aw75dmb or aw100dmb.  of course, the new carver pro-audio amps seems pretty inneresting.  i'd call joel at fullcompass.com (x1116) for a price that mite be hard to pass up...  

doug s.

[Psychicanimal]

If I were you I would keep things as simple as possible.  Using a separate DAC means that to do things right you will need two filter sections, two audio grade power cords, two sets of cones/cork footers, etc., a digital interconnect (a really good one will run around $300 for a 1.5m section).  I am using separate transport and DAC and it does make a difference, especially the transports.  I've used as transports two CDP's: a Cambridge D300SE & AIWA XC-37M.  I also currently have two transports: McCormack SST-1 and a Parasound belt drive transport (made by CEC).  The belt drive is by far the most musical but the Mc Cormack is more robust and dynamic.  That will be solved by having the belt drive modded by Dan Wright.  Anyway, one has more control this way but it also costs a lot more.  Don't be fooled by attempting to spend $400 on modifying a DAC that costs $100 new.  I use a Channel Islands DAC and it is an outstanding performer.  I am having the transport modded because it is an $1800 (retail unit) and spending $300-$350 on modding it is a proportionate amount of money.

Since you just want digital I'd recommend you consider the Channel Islands passive preamp.  It is probably THE best bargain in high end audio today.  At $249 it vastly outperformed my legendary Melos SHA-1 tube preamp and Lak's Presence Audio tube linestage w/ outboard power supply.  The CI Audio is known to outperform preamps in the $3-4K range.  That would leave money in your pocket to buy some serious interconnects and/or the power amp you really want.

Edit: here is a standalone CD player that's worth considering:

http://audioadvisor.com/store/productdetail.asp?sku=CECCD3300&product_name=CEC%203300%20CD%20Player

[warnerwh]

The suggestion of the CIA preamp is a very good one. I'd recommend against the Carver ZR amp for your speakers. The other day when I heard them the Carver was harsh in the upper midrange/lower treble region. I've noticed this is an area that is slightly over emphasized on these speakers and in my personal opinion at this point would be to shy away from the Carver. You may ask Brian as he had a Carver hooked up to these same speakers and see what his take is on it. Also I'm not positive the Carver was fully broken in yet but I'd ask Brian as it's free quality advice regarding this combination.
The money spent for a high end transport at this point is money I'd put elsewhere at this point if I were you.  Again I've owned many dacs and am impressed with this CIA dac.  The California Audio Alpha is very good also but they still sell for around 450. It's a tube based dac and I really like it and may buy another one.  If you go with the CIA pre also let me know and I'll help you with a person that will give you a decent price.  At 250 dollars though it's a steal.

[covermye]

Thanks guys...

With a passive pre (an intriguing direction), I do need to be more careful about matching input/output impedances / levels between the DAC and amp, right?

What kinds of "rules of thumb" does one follow here?

[Psychicanimal]

The CIA pre comes with resistor modules and a little Allen wrench to install them.  You can match the output of your source components.  As for the output impedance, it varies with output.  In my particular case I use a Machand X9 Deluxe electronic crossover (modded by Dan Wright), so that's the one actually driving the power amps.  I started a thread in the CIA circle about this topic--go check it out.

[lonewolfny42]

That's why I was looking at options such as the modified DI/O as opposed to a more "elegant" DAC.

Well, IMO, you can get a MUCH more "elegant" DAC for less money than a modded DI/O.  Take a look at the Scott Nixon TubeDAC, which walks all over the highly-modded DI/O's (and I'm no longer the only one here who thinks so).      Hantra  >> found this for you >> http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/digital/messages/73448.html  

[Psychicanimal]

 Hantra  >> found this for you >> http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/digital/messages/73448.html  

Oh no, Doug's not going to like this...

[doug s.]

Oh no, Doug's not going to like this...

francisco, why am i not going to like this?  i tink it's *great* that there are other cheap reference-quality dacs out there.  as i've told ya many times, it's not a competition, it's about enjoying music.

re: using a passive pre, in francisco's case, he uses an active x-over, so his set-up isn't affected by typical reduction in dynamics that passives have.  i would prefer an active pre for a conwentional set-up w/o active x-over.  (in that a/a tube-dac review, the system under review also used a passive pre, w/the new carver zr-series digital amp, known for killer dynamics, & an agressive top end.  perhaps there's a special synergy here, also...)

and, regarding francisco's comparison of the melos headfone amp/pre w/the cia passive pre, i am sure the cia is a great unit, based upon observations of others (no 1st-hand experience, here), but i also suspect francisco's melos was not up to snuff, as he complained about severe microphonics w/his unit, & this is the 1st time i ever heard this said about that piece, or any other melos gear, for that matter.  whatever can be said about melos gear, microphonic ain't it...

if i were gonna spring for a passive pre, i'd have to consider this one, cuz of its features, versatility, & remote control option:




http://www.musichallaudio.com/products/products.asp?lookup=p43

doug s.

[covermye]

Another amp option open for discussion is the Odyssey Stratos, which I'd get with upgraded cap section (120,000 uF).  However, I'm pretty sure the Stratos's 10k input impedance would require something other than a passive pre...  

What kind of output power signal / output impedance from a DAC or CD Player would I need to adequately drive a load like the Stratos?  

Also, does anybody have any impression(s) of the CEC 3300 CD player linked to above?

[Psychicanimal]

regarding francisco's comparison of the melos headfone amp/pre w/the cia passive pre, i am sure the cia is a great unit, based upon observations of others (no 1st-hand experience, here), but i also suspect francisco's melos was not up to snuff, as he complained about severe microphonics w/his unit, & this is the 1st time i ever heard this said about that piece, or any other melos gear, for that matter. whatever can be said about melos gear, microphonic ain't it... .

Doug,

Quit implying the Stalker stiffed me, will you?  
He would not do that and the Melos was his first sale ever in Audiogon. His outstanding feedback speaks for himself.  He's a guy that goes the extra mile to do things right.  In fact, I think I'm his only internet audio friend and we keep in touch--just like with ewe.  Roberto Petti of Switzerland wrote me back then that the 6922's are amongst the most microphonic tubes and that I'd always have problems with the Melos.

[Psychicanimal]

francisco, why am i not going to like this?.

Ewe are sooo easy!

All I have to say is that I listen to a lot of salsa and I'm not going back to an active pre.  I reached that conclusion before hooking up the electronic crossover.   Whatever loss in dynamics there might be it's way offsetted by the hughe increase in clarity, neutrality and overall musicality.  I can't tell even with my hardcore "junkie salsa" albums--and those are some major words in my book!