AudioCircle
Community => Regional Audiophiles => The Australian Audio Circle => Topic started by: Mr Content on 13 Sep 2009, 02:35 am
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I have been playing around with bass drivers for a about the last year or so. I have been trying to get the most articulate sound, while maintaining a musical bass . I tried a few dedicated sub driver as bass drivers, but didn't like them as much as a dedicated bass driver. Currently I have not been able to best my Vifa 10" in a isobaric config, 66ltr enclosure.
So what is your fav. bass driver, and how have you used it in your system. :thumb:
Mr C :D
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HI,
I do not have a lot of experience with different bass drivers, I came from stand mounters plus sub to my current system.
Having said that, I also use Vifa 10' drivers in Onken style cabinets to complement the speed of my Lowther horns... with variable cross over point and independent amplification I find them integrating well and providing a tuneful and when required substantial bass response.
Cheers,
Ken
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If I may,
It might help to first define your goals and the range over which you want to use the bass driver. I am assuming you are after a woofer, and not a sub? What range of frequencies do you wish to cover? What are you mating this with (it matters for a number of reasons)?
The best driver for one application won't be the best for another, so it isn't easy to offer advice in a vacuum.
Are you building the system yourself? Are you planning to design passive crossovers or use active solutions? Do you have measurement gear?
Josh
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Josh, I am not looking for any, I have about 15 pairs, I like the Vifa's. I was just interested to see what others are using, and why :thumb:
Mr C
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HI,
I do not have a lot of experience with different bass drivers, I came from stand mounters plus sub to my current system.
Having said that, I also use Vifa 10' drivers in Onken style cabinets to complement the speed of my Lowther horns... with variable cross over point and independent amplification I find them integrating well and providing a tuneful and when required substantial bass response.
Cheers,
Ken
Hi Ken, yes the Vifa's seem very fast when loaded properly, I run mine with some B200's in OB.
Mr C aa
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PHL 7030.
not everyone can use them...18 inch.
they don't go low (i can only get them down to 30 hz at most)
have never heard better bass, ever.
well, never felt better bass either.
the elusive *punch* in the chest.
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Nice terry j. I have never played with anything larger than 12", although I do have a pair of Hawthorne 15 Augies, but have never set them up. I have read that larger driver would not need to travel as far for the same levels, which I suppose in theory, should keep distortion down.
How do you have them loaded?
Mr C :D
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Nice terry j. I have never played with anything larger than 12", although I do have a pair of Hawthorne 15 Augies, but have never set them up. I have read that larger driver would not need to travel as far for the same levels, which I suppose in theory, should keep distortion down.
How do you have them loaded?
Mr C :D
sealed cab, made of concrete! Have posted a few pics before, prob in the where are you thread or sumthin
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f84/128cow/100_6038.jpg)
Pity that is a crappy indoor shot, very washed out. Must get a mate into photography to take a decent shot.
here is a better one, but only from the back. Still, it shows it in a more flattering way...at least the colours are a little more balanced
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f84/128cow/100_6041.jpg)
Re the travel observation, these have an xmax of around 8mm only. I assure you, it does not seem to be an inhibiting factor!
This only occurred to me last night, in a few weeks the bathurst races are on (obviously I am in bathurst) and so it is the annual gtg (from sna basically) and guys come from all over australia and stay the weekend here (plenty of room etc)
some head off to the races during the day, others take it easy, whatever. all food is bbq (so the missus doesn't have to do anything) and of course nights is just chinwag and music and a few cold ones.
This year, in addition to my system (which is obviously permanently here!!) there will be a valve/single driver system coming up from melb, and there will also be a 'great unveiling' of aslan acoustics latest offering (two 15's, same mid as mine and an AMT tweeter, all active).
I like the idea of all that. It means if anyone wants to listen to jazz audiophile shit, or just jazz, or just audiophile shit, then I don't have to be subjected to it!! haha. (If I hear Rebecca Pigeon one more time!!arrggghhh :lol:)
An invitation is open to anyone if they ever feel the urge to meet fellow stereo enthusiasts (I refuse to use the word audiophile, *they* are anathema to me!) so prefer music/stereo lovers.
(Audiophiles can stay at home and cuddle their speaker cables and power cords for all I care)
People from diyaudio have also made it out and made firm friendships, so it is in no way restricted to sna.
Just thought I'd mention it if any from this forum would also enjoy either a weekend stay (and make new friends) or even a day trip from the sydneysiders if they would prefer.
I won't be offended if there is no interest btw, just running it up the flagpole as an FYI and see if there are any salutes.
If there were interest, then happy to make a new thread to maximise the chances of aussie circle guys catching it.
Or not, I'm easy.
(hahaha, then each will be able to evaluate for themselves my response to the thrad topic)
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Hi Terry, I'd love to come over at some point during that weekend. Not absolutely 100% sure at this point but can't see any reason I can't be up in Bx that weekend.
Hey, a new thread couldn't hurt :)
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Hi Terry, I'd love to come over at some point during that weekend. Not absolutely 100% sure at this point but can't see any reason I can't be up in Bx that weekend.
Hey, a new thread couldn't hurt :)
Oh hi John, I wondered if you were the 'yetholme' guy, so went and checked. Ha, I forgot the bit about Kelso and your parents!
Well, you know what the oldies say doncha. 'The kids never visit or ring'..well here's your chance to have a good music weekend AND earn those needed brownie points!
yeah we can hear the race too, and we're in georges plains! :o
started those subs yet??
Guess I gotta ask, has there been an aussie circle gtg yet?? If not, heck now's as good a time as any to get one started.
Happy for a new thread, might just wait for Mr Content to see it and give his 'blessing', heck he can cut and paste and start the thread himself?
Hmm, newcastle is not that far really, shall we shame him into coming too?? Funny, N/castle seems to be a real hotbed of 'well known' diy guys, know of three off the top of my head.
weather? Lack of any thing else interesting in the area? the water? who knows.
BUT, they seem to have one thing in common, an extreme reluctance to leave the place and actually get out to these types of things. think I can talk any of these n/castle blokes into coming?
Mr content can be the one to break the mold. :lol:
Excellent John, hope you can work it and make it happen. Even tho nothing in life is certain, I can say with quite a bit of confidence that you will enjoy yourself.
I mean, let's face it. You wouldn't be on an audio forum if you were not interested and liked discussing it! What's one step better than that??
Doing it in person and meeting face to face those with common interests, and best of all (my fav) taking the opportunity to hear other peoples systems.
mix in few cold ones, recipe for a great time.
Guess you could always crash at kelso, but feel free to avail y/self of a place to crash here. (get in soon, and if you are bringing the missus then you automatically snaffle a double bed!! Why give it to a single snoring yobbo when it is less wasteful to give it to a couple?)
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Hey Terry feel free to start a thread, not my circle, OUR circle. Hey we have never been to Bathurst,. But we have a few kids, so we would need to bring a tent and setup in your backyard, or something. Sounds like a good idea, I could bring a nice pair of open baffle speakers for a listen, a couple of diy tube amps..
Start the thread and lets see what interest we get.
Mr C :D
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Hey Terry feel free to start a thread, not my circle, OUR circle. Hey we have never been to Bathurst,. But we have a few kids, so we would need to bring a tent and setup in your backyard, or something. Sounds like a good idea, I could bring a nice pair of open baffle speakers for a listen, a couple of diy tube amps..
Start the thread and lets see what interest we get.
Mr C :D
hey Mr C, hmm you need to pitch a tent? Let me guess, the missus has a headache? :lol: oops, maybe that gave away the tenor of the weekend....
Start again. You need to pitch a tent? No wuckas, after all we are on sixteen acres, so I'm sure we can find the space.
Does this mean it could be the inaugral audio circle (aussie) gtg?
Will start a thread tomorrow then, as you say see what interest evolves.
No mattter the interest, you (and family) plus John are pencilled in ok?
Both have a chat with they who must be obeyed, and fingers crossed.
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Terry, that's a really interesting speaker. On the face of it, the PHL looks like overkill but I'm using some smaller 6" PHLs in MTM configuration and I've always considered them to be more like a 4" driver in respect of their short travel and the amount of air they move. They don't go too low but they do mid very well.
I guess your 18" PHLs are moving about the same amount of air as a 10" or 12" with twice the travel. Short travel speakers often get bad-mouthed when they're compared on the basis of similar diameters but if the comparison is between drivers that move the same amount of air it's a bit more real.
Do you have any views on the relative difference of sound quality when your comparing a narrow column of air being moved by a long throw driver with a broader column of air being moved by a short throw driver? [or perhaps I should just ask you how you came to create that design :)?]
jules
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Two PHLs and a Raven in D Apollito eh? Feeling psychic this morning....Pat have anything to do with that? :)
Terry, that's a really interesting speaker. On the face of it, the PHL looks like overkill but I'm using some smaller 6" PHLs in MTM configuration and I've always considered them to be more like a 4" driver in respect of their short travel and the amount of air they move. They don't go too low but they do mid very well.
Overkill, only in the looks department I guess. Otherwise, is there such a thing as overkill?!
In my dreams I see two of these per side....then we hit into potential problems of physically offset drivers both working up to 200 hz (the x-over point). These mids can go lower (down to 50 in a ported box for example) but as the bass drivers are the undisputed start of the show, why limit what they do?
Compromises and swings and roundabouts, always.
I guess your 18" PHLs are moving about the same amount of air as a 10" or 12" with twice the travel. Short travel speakers often get bad-mouthed when they're compared on the basis of similar diameters but if the comparison is between drivers that move the same amount of air it's a bit more real.
Let's work it out. Mine have a SA of 9*2=81 pi.
A twelve has 6*6=36 pi. A ten is 25 pi. So, for your illustration close enough would be two thirteens, or a thirteen with twice the throw if we talk volume moved.
So you were in the ballpark.
BUT...
Do you have any views on the relative difference of sound quality when your comparing a narrow column of air being moved by a long throw driver with a broader column of air being moved by a short throw driver? [or perhaps I should just ask you how you came to create that design :)?]
jules
I sure do.
There is simply NO comparison! It is one of the perennial questions I have whenever we compare my bass to other bass.
What IS it that seperates this bass from every other bass out there?
It's odd. We can look at it rationally as we just did, yet it is not the answer.
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f84/128cow/afterroomeqonesixthsmoothing.jpg)
This is kinda my response, I had changed quite a few things and didn't recalibrate etc, but the essential point is that they don't go low. (it is very rough in the bass, I would normally have it to within one or two db below 200 hz, can't remember what was going on back then or what I'd changed)
"drop like a stone'' below 35 hz.
So, just looking at that response (with your viewpoint in mind) we'd be justified in saying 'so what?'. And I agree, it does not look like these would do anything a normal audiophile ten (or even eight!!) would not do.
Indeed, you may falsely conclude you would want the driver that goes lower!!
And not only would that be a mistake, it would be a very sad mistake indeed.
There is a vast gulf that exists between these and any other bass I've heard...
that is why this is such an interesting question to me. My thoughts on my bass are not a case of 'proud father' syndrome, or me having a blind spot to faults that exist.
I am annoyed a little that the american military appropriated this phrase, as it is so apt when describing peoples response to hearing my system.
Shock and Awe.
One thing I suspect that is part of the answer, these reproduce the leading edge of the wave, the transient start of the signal, those complex portions that make up the 'percussive' sound. The thing about percussion is the attack, that initial 'bang' of the wave.
All drivers will get the main portion done, the overall shape etc, enough to give you the idea of what is going on, but it is the detail these bring out in that that is outstanding.
Ha, a bit like looking at a fully smoothed graph and an unsmoothed one? All can do the 'smoothed', these can show the detail in the 'unsmoothed'.
If that made sense.
there has gotta be other differences...you simply cannot leave out the contribution of the deqx in all of this for example....it's just that I cannot reconcile """""your""""" thinking above which makes 'sense' with the differences heard.
You can maybe understand why this is such a fascinating question for me? so excuse the wordy reply ok??
Of course, talk is cheap. Most audiophiles (blehh) will rave about how good their system is, how revealing, no veils on those naked singers etc (which is good, as long as you are not listening to ZZ Top!) but the proof is always in the listening.
So the only way for anyone to grasp what I am saying is to hear it for themselves.
And you may not agree with me.
nahh :D
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Terry,
thanks for the great reply. If it hadn't been for the fact the you're using a PHL my thinking might have been that it was overkill but I assumed that the specs of the 18" are like those of other PHLs [low Qts, high efficiency, a magnet the size of a small football field and high BL] and figured the speaker probably had a strong rationale to its design.
There is simply NO comparison! It is one of the perennial questions I have whenever we compare my bass to other bass.
That dramatic eh?!
One thing I suspect that is part of the answer, these reproduce the leading edge of the wave, the transient start of the signal, those complex portions that make up the 'percussive' sound. The thing about percussion is the attack, that initial 'bang' of the wave.
All drivers will get the main portion done, the overall shape etc, enough to give you the idea of what is going on, but it is the detail these bring out in that that is outstanding.
The specs make them dynamic/details drivers don't they but the wizard move has been to use that massive diameter to make up for what is usually the weakness of short travel. Do you think the cone weight/strength might be the limiter as far as bass goes? I don't say that as a criticism but it looks like the trade-off.
Two PHLs and a Raven in D Apollito eh? Feeling psychic this morning....Pat have anything to do with that? :)
Very Close :D! They're a parts only kit from Zalytron in the US. I think Pat gets some of his stuff from there. I don't like the xovers all that much but a re-design is beyond my skills.
jules
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As far as volume displacement goes, those would be the equivalent of a 12" with 20mm Xmax. Which takes you into sub territory. The PHLs have high sensitivity and for a given output will move much less, so less of the controversial "doppler distortion." And look at the response curve! I wouldn't call 8mm of Xmax on that type of driver a "weakness."
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Terry,
thanks for the great reply. If it hadn't been for the fact the you're using a PHL my thinking might have been that it was overkill but I assumed that the specs of the 18" are like those of other PHLs [low Qts, high efficiency, a magnet the size of a small football field and high BL] and figured the speaker probably had a strong rationale to its design.
I like the line on the PHL website about my drivers (7030)
something like 'sensitivity sacrificed over sound quality'.....then lists them as 97 db efficient or whatever!!
That dramatic eh?!
A couple of points. It is hard to grasp the magnitude of the difference. A lot of that I suspect comes from the audiophile (washing washing) review world.
Everything is a major change, dramatic improvement (or disappointment), no grey areas no uncertainties. Every component has a signature and makes a change.
Absolute rubbish, once you take into account even the most basic steps of obscuring identity and matching levels.
Anyway, so here is me saying there is a vast gulf between my bass and other bass. We all have in our heads the concept of 'vast change' (which is really quite minor) from reviews, -phew notice I managed to keep the word audiophile out of that?...arrggghh, washing washing- ...so when you hear me say this... and there really IS a vast gulf between this bass and other bass...as I say shock and awe.
Please don't get the idea that I am sitting here stroking my ego, but equally I am being honest in trying to get across the magnitude of the difference. So whilst it is very uncool to falsely brag, it is equally self defeating to be falsely modest, so walking a thin line here.
The single most common comment about my system when people hear it is 'it is not an audiophile system' and strangely enough the wording is pretty well identical between people! funny that.
And the comment is never dismissive or a put down, but a genuine compliment.
It makes me proud! (given my obvious disdain for audiophile systems...arrggghh, washing washing)
The specs make them dynamic/details drivers don't they but the wizard move has been to use that massive diameter to make up for what is usually the weakness of short travel. Do you think the cone weight/strength might be the limiter as far as bass goes? I don't say that as a criticism but it looks like the trade-off.
I'm not quite sure of your exact question.
I know and understand analytically your 'concern' about the limited xmax, but we simply cannot push them too far! Another of the many things that we just cannot work out about them.
To be frank (hahaha, inside joke there...my system was christened the frankenspeakers by others due to the old boxes and how they looked...so they were just 'the franks' before, now they are known as 'the new franks') we simply have not found the limits of these drivers!
I know of two independent attempts that 'tried to get the franken bass' using different drivers. In other words, they heard mine, were enthused and went out to duplicate this bass.
Both of these attempts used twin fifteens a side, from reputable manufacturers that carries rave au******ile reviews, phew did it that time, and they did not even come close.
Unfortunately one was a good friend with a fantastic system and 'diy seemed easy'...he sold all of his very expensive drivers imported from the states in disgust and at a very steep loss, and gave up.
It was heartbreaking for both he and me. I had even offered to drive mine down to melb and put them in his room so he could rule these in or out, and he went with other drivers and failed. Very sad.
So, another part of the mystery eh? You would 'just think' that two fifteens should be up to scratch. Nope.
It is a mysterious beast that's for sure!!
Very Close :D! They're a parts only kit from Zalytron in the US. I don't like the xovers all that much but a re-design is beyond my skills.
ahh, go active man!
It may seem odd that I talk about it this much. It is not so much the mysteries we have uncovered, or the 'fantastic chest punching' bass they can give, it goes much deeper in the ramifications.
My big thing in audio is listener envelopment. My soundstage is about (who knows without a protractor?) 150 degrees wide, god knows how high (seventeen feet ceilings might help there heh heh) and you are simply immersed in the sound, it washes all over and around you like waves in the ocean.
Only just recently I realised how much of that impression comes from the bass! So it is not me raving about how MUCH bass there is, or how low they go, but how much of a contribution it makes to the listener immersion.
Did that distinction come thru?
Oh hi John, see you just posted. Hope you have become intrigued enough that it tips the decision in favour of making it out in a few weeks!
Even if you disagree with me (nahh!) it will be a fun weekend...they always are. (and it is funny how fast it goes :o)
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The single most common comment about my system when people hear it is 'it is not an audiophile system' and strangely enough the wording is pretty well identical between people! funny that.
And the comment is never dismissive or a put down, but a genuine compliment.
Interesting isn't it, pretty much all the live music we listen to comes courtesy of professional drivers with the characteristics of the PHLs you're using here so what you're doing is arguably a better representation of a live performance than the drivers commonly selected for hi fi.
jules
ps I must have worded things badly. I don't see the 8mm Xmax as a problem.
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Hopefully the pair of 15" PHL 5021 drivers .
Cheers
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'cmon malcolm, read the initial post!! What and how have you USED it!! :lol:
afraid hope and fingers crossed don't count hahaha.
So what did you settle on? 3 or 4 way. And the boxes must be assembled yet, if so show some pics yeah? Heck, give a description in the showcase thingy or whatever, I can't remember the details you settled on...let's face it you were worse than any woman I have ever known in not being able to make your mind up!!!
Anyway, seeing as how you are a 'purist' bloke (unlike me, HA! muck about with that precious audio signal as much as I like!! hehehe) and are basically building it around tubes and transformers (right?), what design did Pat come up with for using these bass drivers?
What has he done to get them low w/out eq? And what does he think they will reach?
Good to chat with you again mate.
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'cmon malcolm, read the initial post!! What and how have you USED it!! :lol:
afraid hope and fingers crossed don't count hahaha.
So what did you settle on? 3 or 4 way. And the boxes must be assembled yet, if so show some pics yeah? Heck, give a description in the showcase thingy or whatever, I can't remember the details you settled on...let's face it you were worse than any woman I have ever known in not being able to make your mind up!!!
Anyway, seeing as how you are a 'purist' bloke (unlike me, HA! muck about with that precious audio signal as much as I like!! hehehe) and are basically building it around tubes and transformers (right?), what design did Pat come up with for using these bass drivers?
What has he done to get them low w/out eq? And what does he think they will reach?
Good to chat with you again mate.
I thought my post might bring you out of the wood work :D .How have you been and the family ,it was good to hear that your GTG was a great success :thumb:.
I settled on a 4 way ,no reason a 4way won't work over a 3 way just takes more time .I haven't settled on a xover yet ,but the new GS looks good ,well you heard it in the 2nd room :wink:.I don't know if I can get the found's together for a DEQX ,plus Lucas is going to see what we can built into the amps .
Andrew CNCed striplam cab's for me and alloy front baffle's so I'm going to try a combo Pat has used .
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g158/malcolm_05/Alloy5021baffle.jpg)
After talking with Pat and your self and hearing what the PHL's can do I sold the Tempest driver's .
Pat had PHL mod one of their 15" driver's to suit a lower Fs and they came up with the PHL5021 it has an Fs28 .
Still collecting parts for the amps almost done ,I also have a couple of F5 modules to try and have narrowed down a couple SS amps for the bass .
Time ,money & HEALTH is slowing me down at the moment .
Good to see your typing's :thumb: .
When are we going to see a thread about your room treatments aa .
Cheers
Mal
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I thought my post might bring you out of the wood work :D
au contraie moi frei!! It could be argued MY post brought YOU out of the woodwork!!.
How have you been and the family ,it was good to hear that your GTG was a great success :thumb:.
It was good, as it always is (nothing to do with me or anything, just the greatness of meeting old mates again in a 'special' event each year.)
In fact, two of the guys from audiocircle made it out as well, which is great...expanding beyond simply sna to include more like minded individuals. Anyway, there is a tiny thread here about their experiences if it is of interest.
It was good...'cept for the tweeter mishap, not sure if you heard about that or not.
I settled on a 4 way ,no reason a 4way won't work over a 3 way just takes more time
I am in two minds about that...especially if the crossovers are passive. For starters, I am convinced it is not needed acoustically (if you get the right drivers, as you are obviously doing) and the damage passive crossovers brings to the table really speaks against it.
Anyway, not saying you are wrong or anything like that, but it comes back to my thoughts on engineering...always swings and roundabouts. What you gain in one area you lose in another..which is why (esp when building your own as you are) you get to choose which compromises where.
So good on ya.
.I haven't settled on a xover yet ,but the new GS looks good ,well you heard it in the 2nd room :wink:
GS? ahhh, just put it together. Groundsound. Originally thought you were talking about earles room. Yeah, that is good value when you consider the amps are built in, BUT technically and functionally it has no more power than the dcx. The build quality and reliability may be better, dunno, but it brings nothing more to the table than the dcx.
.I don't know if I can get the found's together for a DEQX ,plus Lucas is going to see what we can built into the amps .
Andrew CNCed striplam cab's for me and alloy front baffle's so I'm going to try a combo Pat has used .
I give andrew the same advice..he always ignores me!!..but for the cost of a few bucks on mdf, I reckon it is much safer to build test cabinets rather than 'blindly' follow a design from paper.
Anyway, the die has been cast so all the best. That alloy is expensive IIRC, but how does the striplam look??? Give us a photo please.
As good as the dcx and GS are (and faaaar better than not having them I feel) they really are 'nothing' compared to what the deqx does (usual disclaimers, malcolm knows what I am talking about..once upon a time I considered myself a deqx installer/reseller, but now want nothing to do with audiophiles as they are complete idiots, but still take the above comment with my 'conflict of interest' in mind)
After talking with Pat and your self and hearing what the PHL's can do I sold the Tempest driver's .
I hope I did not talk you into anything, audio is a very personal thing. Even re my drivers, ALL I will guarantee' is those drivers, in MY room, with the deqx...and even then you have to hear them for yourself to make your own mind up.
Learnt that with luckydog..not that I had anything to do with his driver selection, that was someone else..he was trying to duplicate my bass he heard here...they did not come close. Lesson I learned?? NEVER make bald matter of fact statements..hence the rider above of 'even then you have to hear it for yourself'.
Same with jiri, seems he is pretty certain to use these drivers. Heck, how much is a plane ticket down to audition them for himself?? Then he will KNOW one way or the other. A minor cost for what could be saving an expensive mistake.
Often when you are diying you don't have the chance to audition these things...I didn't for example...but when you can surely it is safer to do so? (and jiri has a deqx, so even better)
When are we going to see a thread about your room treatments aa .
Cheers
Mal
Well, after that recent shit from that slimy snake keith, I know you WON'T be seeing anything on sna. Spose there is no point bringing that up, you are prob not even aware of what I'm talking about so there you go.
If you are interested, there are threads on the room treatment at gearslutz. It has been great actually, collo (dunno if you know him) popped into the thread and it took off on a great tangent, he developed (initially) the best qrd calculator on the net, then it took a further tangent and he extended it to now calculate 2d qrd's, which has never been done before.
So been really interesting few months, learning heaps of new stuff and between us all (a core 'group' in those threads) we have been 'pushing the boundaries' in room treatment...well so to speak if you follow.
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Hi Terry
I'll check out the Gearslutz site ,thank's .
Here's the top cab section and baffle ,the ply will bonded between a alloy inner & outer skin ,the carbon fibre just pushed the price up .
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g158/malcolm_05/TestFit.jpg)
Cheers
Mal
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yo malcolm
lookin good. Saw them at andrews before he sent them down.
with the al, will you need to polish it or will it stay untarnished.
(putting on my psychic hat) raven tweeter, 6.5 phl mid, ten inch phl mid bass and then (presumably) another box below it with the phl fifteens.
ever heard phls??? cause you are putting a lot of stock in them!!!
did andrew do the bass cabs as well, or are you making up something different for them.
gotta admit, the baffle looks pretty funky! looks aren't everything (I should know haha) but if you can, why not eh?
keep us posted over here too would ya?
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Hi terry
I heard a speaker Pat put together using the PHL's and from a Vic speaker builder remember .
I'll get the bass cab's machined next year when fund's allow .
The front baffle's and cab's will be painted ,I might do them in a Candy pearl finnish have a few idea's .
Cheers
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If you are interested, there are threads on the room treatment at gearslutz. It has been great actually, collo (dunno if you know him) popped into the thread and it took off on a great tangent, he developed (initially) the best qrd calculator on the net, then it took a further tangent and he extended it to now calculate 2d qrd's, which has never been done before.
So been really interesting few months, learning heaps of new stuff and between us all (a core 'group' in those threads) we have been 'pushing the boundaries' in room treatment...well so to speak if you follow.
Hi Terry
While on nightshift I read your thread on Gearslutz from start to the last post .I'll need to register at home ,works PC was blocking some image's .
What a great thread some of the math went over my head one of the guy's I work with went through some of the math with me .
How do you know what freq range to aim for or do you aim for as wide as possible .
I have collo's site in my fav's
Cheers
Mal
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Hi Terry
While on nightshift I read your thread on Gearslutz from start to the last post .I'll need to register at home ,works PC was blocking some image's .
What a great thread some of the math went over my head one of the guy's I work with went through some of the math with me .
How do you know what freq range to aim for or do you aim for as wide as possible .
I have collo's site in my fav's
Cheers
Mal
Hi ya malcolm
well you simply gotta decide what you want I guess!! You have practical restraints at the end of the day (depth, width etc) so that automatically starts to set the design for you if you follow.
Anyway, glad you liked it and found it of worth!
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Hello Terry, Just noticed your name on this thread and wondered what you were up to now. Had a look at your thread on Gearslutz....great stuff... lotsa good references as well.....its a pity we dont get this sort of thing happening on SNA.
56, Was wondering how your project was going and now I know. Looking good !
Cheers Mike
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Hello Terry, Just noticed your name on this thread and wondered what you were up to now. Had a look at your thread on Gearslutz....great stuff... lotsa good references as well.....its a pity we dont get this sort of thing happening on SNA.
56, Was wondering how your project was going and now I know. Looking good !
Cheers Mike
Hiya mike...is it ando??? this user name does not ring a bell, sorry!!
Wow, thank you too for your comments on the GS thread. It was lots of fun when it was happening, exciting if you can understand. Not that I was able to contribute much to the actual development there, but I was useful to ask the dumbarse questions!! Well, someone had to do it right?
So the good contributions from the main players collo and lupo over there was great.
There are a few more threads there, well maybe only one?? about the theory and effectiveness of the space coupler.
That is a work in progress that was interrupted by the bathurst gtg, must get back to it!!
I'm afraid you won't be seeing me around sna anymore, di fuhrer herr wong is just a bit too much of a snake for my liking.
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Hiya mike...is it ando??? this user name does not ring a bell, sorry!!
Good get Terry. I should have written Ando
but I was useful to ask the dumbarse questions!! Well, someone had to do it right?
And might I say you were very good at it !
That is a work in progress that was interrupted by the bathurst gtg, must get back to it!!
I would really like to get to Bathurst next year if its happening. I have been travelling lots in recent times so not much audio stuff happening except actually enjoying listening to music and doing a bit of theoretical " research " here and there.
I'm afraid you won't be seeing me around sna anymore, di fuhrer herr wong is just a bit too much of a snake for my liking.
I gathered this, mores the pity!
Cheers Mike
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Well, this one is a bit of an oldie but what the heck! ...
The best result in my room so far has been with some Rythmik servo subs, but it's quite a challenge to get subs to really work well in a room and not sound like subs. I never managed to really get them to do it completely til I went nuts with bass traps. I'm fussy with bass and find that very few systems are satisfying there. I heard Terry's and it's one of the stand out systems, both in the bass and the envelopment. I'm still curious what is behind that aspect.
Terry - have you tried bass traps yet?
I have some pro 18s waiting in the wings to go into some 90L sealed cabs as active woofers. At some point I'd like to get hold of some AE TD18s which are an 18" woofer. They are pricey at $1400 for a pair! They measure beautifully flat, so well that they could be coaxed into working as a two way with a compression driver. Not that I would try it but it's pretty impressive that it could actually be done.
Bass is the one thing you can't compare except in the same room. In my room just about anything will sound good in the bass because it has a large amount of bass damping. For a long time I thought the subs had just a little edge of boom in them, then came the bass traps. Boom gone. I spent hours of trying to find a track that would bring out an edge of boominess, all those tracks that had it before. All gone. I could not fault the bass.
Like Terry I prefer to get there with cone area and efficiency rather than excursion. You end up needing much less power and in the bass that is an issue. It takes a lot of power to get much out of inefficient subs. I remember hearing a plate amp vs a pro amp drive a sub. WOW! They sounded about the same in loudness, but the pro amp had far greater authority. It was a genuine jaw dropping difference. The kind that gets a reaction like "hey, that's the chit man!!!!" Bring on a pro driver and the need becomes much less. Power it with about 400w and you hit rock concert levels. Now if you have a sub you need more like 2kw and try and scrape together similar levels, the advantage is in also getting extension for HT but if you're just in it for music I'd rather get there with a pro driver. Plate amps in subs tend to overheat when you crank music up.
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Hi paul...don't really check in here, pure chance i caught it.
Well, this one is a bit of an oldie but what the heck! ...
I heard Terry's and it's one of the stand out systems, both in the bass and the envelopment. I'm still curious what is behind that aspect.
Terry - have you tried bass traps yet?
Hey thanks man, appreciate the kind words.
Firstly, I DID have bass traps when you were here. Stealth! Anyway, come oct remind me to point them out to you. Well, only one atm. It had a book cabinet in front of it, next to the computer.
About 1400 wide (all from memory) and 400 deep, extends from the floor to the ceiling (if you can remember the height that is)
It is faced with 50mm compressed f/glass, and filled with two layers of R 14 batts. They got compressed slightly.
Anyway, onto the LEV and size of the soundscape. Wanna know my theory?? Well, we prob spoke of this but you gotta get the essentials right first with the speakers. Timing is what I'm talking about.
BUT I am not talking about 'mere' time alignment of drivers. I recall on your blog you spoke of your findings with time alignment (is that right) Anyway, what you said rang true with me too. Noticeable, worthwhile but not earth shattering.
Time alignment of the drivers is one of those things, you can only tell by direct comparison (well duh) What I mean is that if you listen to a NON driver time aligned system , you don't sit there going 'uggh,this is wrong' do you. I first found it out when I ran the dcx, which allowed you to switch it in and out IIRC. As we both found, not earth shattering ( so don't sweat it if you cannot do it) but if it is easily done, go for it.
No, I am talking about correcting phase and group delay. Expensive to do as you well know, but then again it seems to have the end result that most comment on it. To me THAT is why you can have such an envelopment of sound (on even bog standard recordings). (this is what I have decided is the cause, so could be wrong praps)
Anyway, we are now set up for my theory haha. Once you have that background, SUBS!!!! Maybe you can try it easily at home (or anyone else reading)??
I have the concept that 'the bass is the carrier wave for the rest of the spectrum'. (my own idea creation, so again could be bunkum).
On some levels it makes sense, you'd know with eq for example. Compare eq'd vs non eq'd (leaving aside room treatment), obviously the bass changes (again duh) BUT it often manifests in the mids or treble perception.
We have not touched the mids or treble!! But they sure sound different.
Anyway, once the room is full of bass so to speak, well perceptually the room is also full of mids and treble.
Wacky idea, but try it if you can, I'd love to know what you find. Try and match the bass extension (so the FR stays 'the same') and switch the subs in and out. I am presuming of course you have distributed bass sources. I have four (the two main 18's and the two additional subs)
BTW, just finished the box for the second mael 18. Not in the system yet, but it IS sitting here on the trolley. A bit of fiddling over the next few days.
At some point I'd like to get hold of some AE TD18s which are an 18" woofer. They are pricey at $1400 for a pair! They measure beautifully flat, so well that they could be coaxed into working as a two way with a compression driver. Not that I would try it but it's pretty impressive that it could actually be done.
1400 the pair? Man I'd love it if my PHLs were that cheap! Well, I paid around 900 six years ago, last I checked they were 1200 or so each.
Can I say I was not impressed with the AE 15's Phil had a few years ago? We were both very underwhelmed, I think he a tad moreso than I as he was the one who paid for them. Equally, I was very unimpressed with the tens I used as a trial. I mean they were OK (except for poor power handling) when they were all I heard. That experiment was successful enought for me to take the punt on these PHL tens.
Well, blow me down, the PHLs absolutely slayed the AEs. I mean not even in the same ballpark. Andrew could not stand the AEs (I was never THAT way as I mentioned) and he obviously thinks even more than I do about the comparison.
Anyway, my only two experiences, only my thoughts so take it for what it's worth.
Like Terry I prefer to get there with cone area and efficiency rather than excursion. You end up needing much less power and in the bass that is an issue.
The way you worded it sounds like I said that earlier in the thread? An old one remember!
It's gotta be something like that has it not? I could take a FR sweep, and compare it to a 'normal' systems sweep. they could be the same on the graph, but there is that something which set' the bass apart. A question I have often asked, guess that guess is as good as any other.
Roll on oct! see ya then.
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Hmmmmm, now where is the subscribe button!
Firstly, I DID have bass traps when you were here.
Ahhh sneaky. I didn't notice. I did wonder how it would be that good without them.
No, I am talking about correcting phase and group delay. Expensive to do as you well know, but then again it seems to have the end result that most comment on it. To me THAT is why you can have such an envelopment of sound (on even bog standard recordings). (this is what I have decided is the cause, so could be wrong praps)
So have you tried switching that correction in and out? ie time aligned drivers both ways, but with and without correction of GD? I'd be curious because that is the main thing that is missed with using MiniDSP or DCX instead of DEQX.
1400 the pair? Man I'd love it if my PHLs were that cheap! Well, I paid around 900 six years ago, last I checked they were 1200 or so each.
Outch! AE sell direct and they are a boutique manufacturer. Were they to sell via distributors the prices would go up. They are exotic and hand made, so if you could call expensive boutique drivers a bargain, I'd call them that. Imagine what they would cost if Scan Speak made similar drivers? You pay almost as much for a little 6" as you do for their 10 - 15" drivers. The bigger AE drivers don't add much to the cost, I like it that way cos I like the big drivers!
Can I say I was not impressed with the AE 15's Phil had a few years ago? We were both very underwhelmed, I think he a tad moreso than I as he was the one who paid for them. Equally, I was very unimpressed with the tens I used as a trial. I mean they were OK (except for poor power handling) when they were all I heard. That experiment was successful enought for me to take the punt on these PHL tens.
Well, blow me down, the PHLs absolutely slayed the AEs. I mean not even in the same ballpark. Andrew could not stand the AEs (I was never THAT way as I mentioned) and he obviously thinks even more than I do about the comparison.
Anyway, my only two experiences, only my thoughts so take it for what it's worth.
I remember this coming up, I also recall Brett pointing out something was wrong with them, something about polarity? Your story sounds like the exception rather than the rule. I've had some TD10M drivers in my system for a few months - a deluxe Ewave. Really nice driver, very clean and dynamic. I am a bit biased towards AE drivers, I like their design priorities as well as the look. Compare them to PHL and if either comes out as a clear winner then I'd suspect something is funky somewhere.
I would have built something similar, but after a few months I felt I had a pretty good idea what they could do and decided I wanted to do something different and more challenging. Hence the Synergy horn!
The way you worded it sounds like I said that earlier in the thread? An old one remember!
Don't know where you said it, things all get mixed in sometimes!
So, interesting theory of yours. I'll put it in the "haven't figured it out yet" box. I think there are a lot of things that contribute to imaging and the sound stage, but it's not easy to say how much of it comes from each thing you do. We don't have time to sit around with a blind testing panel and take apart each thing, switching from a sharp edged baffle to a rounded one. So we group together all the things we think matter and when the result is good we're not totally sure what to blame.
Since last Bathurst I've gone from a 3 way active setup with open baffle, dome tweeter, 6" mid and subs to a box speaker version with compression drivers and a waveguide, also bass traps and treatment. The imaging is sharper than ever and I'm finding I'm getting a much better result with the waveguide. I think constant directivity really makes a difference. Essentially I'm cutting down on reflections by controlling directivity. I've gone a bit far in making the room dead though, so diffusers are coming into the room, aiming for a bigger room kind of sound. I think early reflections are a key issue and I seem to recall that is something you worked on as well.
The Synergy horn will be built into a bass trap that will look like a studio soffit mount, with a BAD panel style outer layer. That's the current plan. The design itself is intended to achieve phase coherence and minimise the shift in group delay. I suppose you could say we pursue similar goals using different methods.
Looking forward to Bathurst, sheesh it's coming up quick!
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Hmmmmm, now where is the subscribe button!
Ahhh sneaky. I didn't notice. I did wonder how it would be that good without them.
Dunno, but I got an email notification you'd replied.
Excellent,they are stealth traps then! Which is funny, cause they ARE huge in reality. Poor shot, but when being built
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f84/128cow/100_6119.jpg)
Being full height is probably the trick.
So have you tried switching that correction in and out? ie time aligned drivers both ways, but with and without correction of GD? I'd be curious because that is the main thing that is missed with using MiniDSP or DCX instead of DEQX.
nigel asks me each year, I keep promising to set it up so he can hear that, keep forgetting!!
I remember this coming up, I also recall Brett pointing out something was wrong with them, something about polarity? Your story sounds like the exception rather than the rule. I've had some TD10M drivers in my system for a few months - a deluxe Ewave. Really nice driver, very clean and dynamic. I am a bit biased towards AE drivers, I like their design priorities as well as the look. Compare them to PHL and if either comes out as a clear winner then I'd suspect something is funky somewhere.
Got it, How else to kill a ten hour trip eh? Should have known it would have come up.
Then you already know exactly what Phil thought of the drivers (I'm talking the bass drivers, 15's I think)..I was decidedly underwhelmed bass wise. My opinions etc, my bass destroyed the AE bass.
The mids on Phils were AE too??? can't recall...think they could have been. Anyway, it was the mids phil tells me were OOP. On Phils I was only talking about the bass, we could not make a decision about the mids due to the above.
In MINE, I used Bretts AE tens. they were not OOP, I AM directly comparing the range 200-1000 or so between the AE and PHL.
Dunno about funky, but two different experiences. Let's say I would never buy them.
So, interesting theory of yours. I'll put it in the "haven't figured it out yet" box.
Not, just to clarify, I was not talking about imaging etc (tho timing, absence of first early reflections etc do help) but more explaining the envelopment. The more the bass swells around and washes over you, equally the more the rest.
As I say, theory only. Seems to make sense.
Anyway, how easy is it for you to bypass the subs yet extend the bass from the mains to match. Ie same FR in the bass at the LP, one with subs one without subs. Hopefully one click to swap.
that is the test. We will try it in oct here and see what we find eh?
yeah,you saw my special design PRDs.
Looking forward to Bathurst, sheesh it's coming up quick!
I have the RWC in between that! So will be busy.
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At some point I'd like to get hold of some AE TD18s which are an 18" woofer. They are pricey at $1400 for a pair! They measure beautifully flat, so well that they could be coaxed into working as a two way with a compression driver. Not that I would try it but it's pretty impressive that it could actually be done.
Hi Paul, they are USD399 ea in the AE store, is the shipping doubling it? Or is someone selling them locally now?
Where did you find the measurements?
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That's what they cost shipped. Yes, shipping hurts! You have to handle these drivers to understand. Even the TD10M is seriously heavy. The magnet is huge, not just the diameter but also the depth. It's built like a sub driver. Some pro 18 woofers can be lifted with a finger, not these! The new version of the TD18H is prettier too, as seen here:
http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2011/05/unity-horns-acoustic-elegance-td18h.html
I measured some fairly recently, really nice smooth response.
We will try it in oct here and see what we find eh?
Sounds good.
I have compared subs + mains vs mains with EQ to match in the past. First test found out that my subs weren't too good! Second test was curiosity. The difference was not massive, but I did prefer with the subs. I was mostly paying attention to the bass.
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I've seen some online somewhere, but I've also taken some.
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That's what they cost shipped. Yes, shipping hurts! You have to handle these drivers to understand. Even the TD10M is seriously heavy.
I'll back you up totally on that point. I can't remember which AE tens I had, but I CAN tell you the AE weighed around the same as the PHL when in the box I made. Remember that box with the tens stuck on top? So that box with the PHL in it was probably still outweighed by the raw AE ten.
Sounds good.
I have compared subs + mains vs mains with EQ to match in the past. First test found out that my subs weren't too good! Second test was curiosity. The difference was not massive, but I did prefer with the subs. I was mostly paying attention to the bass.
Ok, I will try to get that set up. Have decided NOT to change anything on the weekend...a few beers, get excited and try and do things for nigel (remember I was only making plans for nigel) and BANG, blown tweeter.
beers and setting up speakers do not go together.
Just had my first listen with the second sub in. Could be all auto suggestion, but yeah I reckon that theory of mine makes sense.
'
ciao
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I'm quite happy with my GOTO UNIT SG-380WN 15" bass drivers.
Although a bit pricey I must admit..