[56oval]

'cmon malcolm, read the initial post!! What and how have you USED it!!

afraid hope and fingers crossed don't count hahaha.

So what did you settle on? 3 or 4 way. And the boxes must be assembled yet, if so show some pics yeah? Heck, give a description in the showcase thingy or whatever, I can't remember the details you settled on...let's face it you were worse than any woman I have ever known in not being able to make your mind up!!!

Anyway, seeing as how you are a 'purist' bloke (unlike me, HA! muck about with that precious audio signal as much as I like!! hehehe) and are basically building it around tubes and transformers (right?), what design did Pat come up with for using these bass drivers?

What has he done to get them low w/out eq? And what does he think they will reach?

Good to chat with you again mate.

I thought my post might bring you out of the wood work  .How have you been and the family ,it was good to hear that your GTG was a great success  .
 I settled on a 4 way ,no reason a 4way won't work over a 3 way just takes more time .I haven't settled on a xover yet ,but the new GS looks good ,well you heard it in the 2nd room  .I don't know if I can get the found's together for a DEQX ,plus Lucas is going to see what we can built into the amps .
Andrew CNCed  striplam cab's for me and alloy front baffle's so I'm going to try a combo Pat has used .


After talking with Pat and your self and hearing what the PHL's can do I sold the Tempest driver's .
Pat had PHL mod one of their 15" driver's to suit a lower Fs and they came up with the PHL5021 it has an Fs28 .
Still collecting parts for the amps almost done ,I also have a couple of F5 modules to try and have narrowed down a couple SS amps for the bass .

Time ,money & HEALTH is slowing me down at the moment .

Good to see your typing's  .

When are we going to see a thread about your room treatments  aa .

Cheers

Mal

[terry j]

I thought my post might bring you out of the wood work 

au contraie moi frei!! It could be argued MY post brought YOU out of the woodwork!!.

How have you been and the family ,it was good to hear that your GTG was a great success  .

It was good, as it always is (nothing to do with me or anything, just the greatness of meeting old mates again in a 'special' event each year.)

In fact, two of the guys from audiocircle made it out as well, which is great...expanding beyond simply sna to include more like minded individuals. Anyway, there is a tiny thread here about their experiences if it is of interest.

It was good...'cept for the tweeter mishap, not sure if you heard about that or not.


 

I settled on a 4 way ,no reason a 4way won't work over a 3 way just takes more time

I am in two minds about that...especially if the crossovers are passive. For starters, I am convinced it is not needed acoustically (if you get the right drivers, as you are obviously doing) and the damage passive crossovers brings to the table really speaks against it.

Anyway, not saying you are wrong or anything like that, but it comes back to my thoughts on engineering...always swings and roundabouts. What you gain in one area you lose in another..which is why (esp when building your own as you are) you get to choose which compromises where.

So good on ya.

.

I haven't settled on a xover yet ,but the new GS looks good ,well you heard it in the 2nd room 

GS? ahhh, just put it together. Groundsound. Originally thought you were talking about earles room. Yeah, that is good value when you consider the amps are built in, BUT technically and functionally it has no more power than the dcx. The build quality and reliability may be better, dunno, but it brings nothing more to the table than the dcx.

.

I don't know if I can get the found's together for a DEQX ,plus Lucas is going to see what we can built into the amps .
Andrew CNCed  striplam cab's for me and alloy front baffle's so I'm going to try a combo Pat has used .

I give andrew the same advice..he always ignores me!!..but for the cost of a few bucks on mdf, I reckon it is much safer to build test cabinets rather than 'blindly' follow a design from paper.

Anyway, the die has been cast so all the best. That alloy is expensive IIRC, but how does the striplam look??? Give us a photo please.

As good as the dcx and GS are (and faaaar better than not having them I feel) they really are 'nothing' compared to what the deqx does (usual disclaimers, malcolm knows what I am talking about..once upon a time I considered myself a deqx installer/reseller, but now want nothing to do with audiophiles as they are complete idiots, but still take the above comment with my 'conflict of interest' in mind)

After talking with Pat and your self and hearing what the PHL's can do I sold the Tempest driver's .

I hope I did not talk you into anything, audio is a very personal thing. Even re my drivers, ALL I will guarantee' is those drivers, in MY room, with the deqx...and even then you have to hear them for yourself to make your own mind up.

Learnt that with luckydog..not that I had anything to do with his driver selection, that was someone else..he was trying to duplicate my bass he heard here...they did not come close. Lesson I learned?? NEVER make bald matter of fact statements..hence the rider above of 'even then you have to hear it for yourself'.

Same with jiri, seems he is pretty certain to use these drivers. Heck, how much is a plane ticket down to audition them for himself?? Then he will KNOW one way or the other. A minor cost for what could be saving an expensive mistake.

Often when you are diying you don't have the chance to audition these things...I didn't for example...but when you can surely it is safer to do so? (and jiri has a deqx, so even better)

When are we going to see a thread about your room treatments  aa .

Cheers

Mal

Well, after that recent shit from that slimy snake keith, I know you WON'T be seeing anything on sna. Spose there is no point bringing that up, you are prob not even aware of what I'm talking about so there you go.

If you are interested, there are threads on the room treatment at gearslutz. It has been great actually, collo (dunno if you know him) popped into the thread and it took off on a great tangent, he developed (initially) the best qrd calculator on the net, then it took a further tangent and he extended it to now calculate 2d qrd's, which has never been done before.

So been really interesting few months, learning heaps of new stuff and between us all (a core 'group' in those threads) we have been 'pushing the boundaries' in room treatment...well so to speak if you follow.

[56oval]

Hi Terry
I'll check out the Gearslutz site ,thank's .
Here's the top cab section and baffle ,the ply will bonded between a alloy inner & outer skin ,the carbon fibre just pushed the price up .


Cheers

Mal

[terry j]

yo malcolm

lookin good. Saw them at andrews before he sent them down.

with the al, will you need to polish it or will it stay untarnished.

(putting on my psychic hat)  raven tweeter, 6.5 phl mid, ten inch phl mid bass and then (presumably) another box below it with the phl fifteens.

ever heard phls??? cause you are putting a lot of stock in them!!!

did andrew do the bass cabs as well, or are you making up something different for them.

gotta admit, the baffle looks pretty funky! looks aren't everything (I should know haha) but if you can, why not eh?

keep us posted over here too would ya?

[56oval]

Hi terry
I heard a speaker Pat put together using the PHL's and from a Vic speaker builder remember .
I'll get the bass cab's machined next year when fund's allow .
The front baffle's and cab's will be painted ,I might do them in a Candy pearl finnish have a few idea's .

Cheers

[56oval]

If you are interested, there are threads on the room treatment at gearslutz. It has been great actually, collo (dunno if you know him) popped into the thread and it took off on a great tangent, he developed (initially) the best qrd calculator on the net, then it took a further tangent and he extended it to now calculate 2d qrd's, which has never been done before.

So been really interesting few months, learning heaps of new stuff and between us all (a core 'group' in those threads) we have been 'pushing the boundaries' in room treatment...well so to speak if you follow.

Hi Terry
While on nightshift I read your thread on Gearslutz from start to the last post .I'll need to register at home ,works PC was blocking some image's .
What a great thread some of the math went over my head one of the guy's I work with went through some of the math with me .
How do you know what freq range to aim for or do you aim for as wide as possible .

I have collo's site in my fav's

Cheers

Mal

[terry j]

Hi Terry
While on nightshift I read your thread on Gearslutz from start to the last post .I'll need to register at home ,works PC was blocking some image's .
What a great thread some of the math went over my head one of the guy's I work with went through some of the math with me .
How do you know what freq range to aim for or do you aim for as wide as possible .

I have collo's site in my fav's

Cheers

Mal

Hi ya malcolm

well you simply gotta decide what you want I guess!! You have practical restraints at the end of the day (depth, width etc) so that automatically starts to set the design for you if you follow.

Anyway, glad you liked it and found it of worth!

[Michael Anderson]

Hello Terry, Just noticed your name on this thread and wondered what you were up to now. Had a look at your thread on Gearslutz....great stuff... lotsa good references as well.....its a pity we dont get this sort of thing happening on SNA.

56, Was wondering how your project was going and now I know. Looking good !
Cheers Mike

[terry j]

Hello Terry, Just noticed your name on this thread and wondered what you were up to now. Had a look at your thread on Gearslutz....great stuff... lotsa good references as well.....its a pity we dont get this sort of thing happening on SNA.

56, Was wondering how your project was going and now I know. Looking good !
Cheers Mike

Hiya mike...is it ando??? this user name does not ring a bell, sorry!!

Wow, thank you too for your comments on the GS thread. It was lots of fun when it was happening, exciting if you can understand. Not that I was able to contribute much to the actual development there, but I was useful to ask the dumbarse questions!! Well, someone had to do it right?

So the good contributions from the main players collo and lupo over there was great.

There are a few more threads there, well maybe only one?? about the theory and effectiveness of the space coupler.

That is a work in progress that was interrupted by the bathurst gtg, must get back to it!!

I'm afraid you won't be seeing me around sna anymore, di fuhrer herr wong is just a bit too much of a snake for my liking.

[Michael Anderson]

Hiya mike...is it ando??? this user name does not ring a bell, sorry!!

Good get Terry. I should have written Ando

but I was useful to ask the dumbarse questions!! Well, someone had to do it right?

And might I say you were very good at it !

That is a work in progress that was interrupted by the bathurst gtg, must get back to it!!

I would really like to get to Bathurst next year if its happening. I have been travelling lots in recent times  so not much audio stuff happening except actually enjoying listening to music and doing a bit of theoretical " research " here and there.

I'm afraid you won't be seeing me around sna anymore, di fuhrer herr wong is just a bit too much of a snake for my liking.

I gathered this, mores the pity!
Cheers Mike

[paulspencer]

Well, this one is a bit of an oldie but what the heck! ...

The best result in my room so far has been with some Rythmik servo subs, but it's quite a challenge to get subs to really work well in a room and not sound like subs. I never managed to really get them to do it completely til I went nuts with bass traps. I'm fussy with bass and find that very few systems are satisfying there. I heard Terry's and it's one of the stand out systems, both in the bass and the envelopment. I'm still curious what is behind that aspect.

Terry - have you tried bass traps yet?

I have some pro 18s waiting in the wings to go into some 90L sealed cabs as active woofers. At some point I'd like to get hold of some AE TD18s which are an 18" woofer. They are pricey at $1400 for a pair! They measure beautifully flat, so well that they could be coaxed into working as a two way with a compression driver. Not that I would try it but it's pretty impressive that it could actually be done.

Bass is the one thing you can't compare except in the same room. In my room just about anything will sound good in the bass because it has a large amount of bass damping. For a long time I thought the subs had just a little edge of boom in them, then came the bass traps. Boom gone. I spent hours of trying to find a track that would bring out an edge of boominess, all those tracks that had it before. All gone. I could not fault the bass.

Like Terry I prefer to get there with cone area and efficiency rather than excursion. You end up needing much less power and in the bass that is an issue. It takes a lot of power to get much out of inefficient subs. I remember hearing a plate amp vs a pro amp drive a sub. WOW! They sounded about the same in loudness, but the pro amp had far greater authority. It was a genuine jaw dropping difference. The kind that gets a reaction like "hey, that's the chit man!!!!" Bring on a pro driver and the need becomes much less. Power it with about 400w and you hit rock concert levels. Now if you have a sub you need more like 2kw and try and scrape together similar levels, the advantage is in also getting extension for HT but if you're just in it for music I'd rather get there with a pro driver. Plate amps in subs tend to overheat when you crank music up.

[terry j]

Hi paul...don't really check in here, pure chance i caught it.

Well, this one is a bit of an oldie but what the heck! ...


I heard Terry's and it's one of the stand out systems, both in the bass and the envelopment. I'm still curious what is behind that aspect.

Terry - have you tried bass traps yet?

Hey thanks man, appreciate the kind words.

Firstly, I DID have bass traps when you were here. Stealth! Anyway, come oct remind me to point them out to you. Well, only one atm. It had a book cabinet in front of it, next to the computer.

About 1400 wide (all from memory) and 400 deep, extends from the floor to the ceiling (if you can remember the height that is)

It is faced with 50mm compressed f/glass, and filled with two layers of R 14 batts. They got compressed slightly.

Anyway, onto the LEV and size of the soundscape. Wanna know my theory?? Well, we prob spoke of this but you gotta get the essentials right first with the speakers. Timing is what I'm talking about.

BUT I am not talking about 'mere' time alignment of drivers. I recall on your blog you spoke of your findings with time alignment (is that right) Anyway, what you said rang true with me too. Noticeable, worthwhile but not earth shattering.

Time alignment of the drivers is one of those things, you can only tell by direct comparison (well duh) What I mean is that if you listen to a NON driver time aligned system , you don't sit there going 'uggh,this is wrong' do you. I first found it out when I ran the dcx, which allowed you to switch it in and out IIRC. As we both found, not earth shattering ( so don't sweat it if you cannot do it) but if it is easily done, go for it.

No, I am talking about correcting phase and group delay. Expensive to do as you well know, but then again it seems to have the end result that most comment on it. To me THAT is why you can have such an envelopment of sound (on even bog standard recordings). (this is what I have decided is the cause, so could be wrong praps)

Anyway, we are now set up for my theory haha. Once you have that background, SUBS!!!! Maybe you can try it easily at home (or anyone else reading)??

I have the concept that 'the bass is the carrier wave for the rest of the spectrum'. (my own idea creation, so again could be bunkum).

On some levels it makes sense, you'd know with eq for example. Compare eq'd vs non eq'd (leaving aside room treatment), obviously the bass changes (again duh) BUT it often manifests in the mids or treble perception.

We have not touched the mids or treble!! But they sure sound different.

Anyway, once the room is full of bass so to speak, well perceptually the room is also full of mids and treble.

Wacky idea, but try it if you can, I'd love to know what you find. Try and match the bass extension (so the FR stays 'the same') and switch the subs in and out. I am presuming of course you have distributed bass sources. I have four (the two main 18's and the two additional subs)

BTW, just finished the box for the second mael 18. Not in the system yet, but it IS sitting here on the trolley. A bit of fiddling over the next few days.

At some point I'd like to get hold of some AE TD18s which are an 18" woofer. They are pricey at $1400 for a pair! They measure beautifully flat, so well that they could be coaxed into working as a two way with a compression driver. Not that I would try it but it's pretty impressive that it could actually be done.

1400 the pair? Man I'd love it if my PHLs were that cheap! Well, I paid around 900 six years ago, last I checked they were 1200 or so each.

Can I say I was not impressed with the AE 15's Phil had a few years ago? We were both very underwhelmed, I think he a tad moreso than I as he was the one who paid for them. Equally, I was very unimpressed with the tens I used as a trial. I mean they were OK (except for poor power handling) when they were all I heard. That experiment was successful enought for me to take the punt on these PHL tens.

Well, blow me down, the PHLs absolutely slayed the AEs. I mean not even in the same ballpark. Andrew could not stand the AEs (I was never THAT way as I mentioned) and he obviously thinks even more than I do about the comparison.

Anyway, my only two experiences, only my thoughts so take it for what it's worth.

Like Terry I prefer to get there with cone area and efficiency rather than excursion. You end up needing much less power and in the bass that is an issue.

The way you worded it sounds like I said that earlier in the thread? An old one remember!

It's gotta be something like that has it not? I could take a FR sweep, and compare it to a 'normal' systems sweep. they could be the same on the graph, but there is that something which set' the bass apart. A question I have often asked, guess that guess is as good as any other.

Roll on oct! see ya then.

[paulspencer]

Hmmmmm, now where is the subscribe button!

Firstly, I DID have bass traps when you were here.

Ahhh sneaky. I didn't notice. I did wonder how it would be that good without them.

No, I am talking about correcting phase and group delay. Expensive to do as you well know, but then again it seems to have the end result that most comment on it. To me THAT is why you can have such an envelopment of sound (on even bog standard recordings). (this is what I have decided is the cause, so could be wrong praps)

So have you tried switching that correction in and out? ie time aligned drivers both ways, but with and without correction of GD? I'd be curious because that is the main thing that is missed with using MiniDSP or DCX instead of DEQX.

1400 the pair? Man I'd love it if my PHLs were that cheap! Well, I paid around 900 six years ago, last I checked they were 1200 or so each.

Outch! AE sell direct and they are a boutique manufacturer. Were they to sell via distributors the prices would go up. They are exotic and hand made, so if you could call expensive boutique drivers a bargain, I'd call them that. Imagine what they would cost if Scan Speak made similar drivers? You pay almost as much for a little 6" as you do for their 10 - 15" drivers. The bigger AE drivers don't add much to the cost, I like it that way cos I like the big drivers!

Can I say I was not impressed with the AE 15's Phil had a few years ago? We were both very underwhelmed, I think he a tad moreso than I as he was the one who paid for them. Equally, I was very unimpressed with the tens I used as a trial. I mean they were OK (except for poor power handling) when they were all I heard. That experiment was successful enought for me to take the punt on these PHL tens.

Well, blow me down, the PHLs absolutely slayed the AEs. I mean not even in the same ballpark. Andrew could not stand the AEs (I was never THAT way as I mentioned) and he obviously thinks even more than I do about the comparison.

Anyway, my only two experiences, only my thoughts so take it for what it's worth.

I remember this coming up, I also recall Brett pointing out something was wrong with them, something about polarity? Your story sounds like the exception rather than the rule. I've had some TD10M drivers in my system for a few months - a deluxe Ewave. Really nice driver, very clean and dynamic. I am a bit biased towards AE drivers, I like their design priorities as well as the look. Compare them to PHL and if either comes out as a clear winner then I'd suspect something is funky somewhere.

I would have built something similar, but after a few months I felt I had a pretty good idea what they could do and decided I wanted to do something different and more challenging. Hence the Synergy horn!

The way you worded it sounds like I said that earlier in the thread? An old one remember!

Don't know where you said it, things all get mixed in sometimes!

So, interesting theory of yours. I'll put it in the "haven't figured it out yet" box. I think there are a lot of things that contribute to imaging and the sound stage, but it's not easy to say how much of it comes from each thing you do. We don't have time to sit around with a blind testing panel and take apart each thing, switching from a sharp edged baffle to a rounded one. So we group together all the things we think matter and when the result is good we're not totally sure what to blame.

Since last Bathurst I've gone from a 3 way active setup with open baffle, dome tweeter, 6" mid and subs to a box speaker version with compression drivers and a waveguide, also bass traps and treatment. The imaging is sharper than ever and I'm finding I'm getting a much better result with the waveguide. I think constant directivity really makes a difference. Essentially I'm cutting down on reflections by controlling directivity. I've gone a bit far in making the room dead though, so diffusers are coming into the room, aiming for a bigger room kind of sound. I think early reflections are a key issue and I seem to recall that is something you worked on as well.

The Synergy horn will be built into a bass trap that will look like a studio soffit mount, with a BAD panel style outer layer. That's the current plan. The design itself is intended to achieve phase coherence and minimise the shift in group delay. I suppose you could say we pursue similar goals using different methods.

Looking forward to Bathurst, sheesh it's coming up quick!

[terry j]

Hmmmmm, now where is the subscribe button!

Ahhh sneaky. I didn't notice. I did wonder how it would be that good without them.

Dunno, but I got an email notification you'd replied.

Excellent,they are stealth traps then! Which is funny, cause they ARE huge in reality. Poor shot, but when being built




Being full height is probably the trick.

So have you tried switching that correction in and out? ie time aligned drivers both ways, but with and without correction of GD? I'd be curious because that is the main thing that is missed with using MiniDSP or DCX instead of DEQX.

nigel asks me each year, I keep promising to set it up so he can hear that, keep forgetting!!

I remember this coming up, I also recall Brett pointing out something was wrong with them, something about polarity? Your story sounds like the exception rather than the rule. I've had some TD10M drivers in my system for a few months - a deluxe Ewave. Really nice driver, very clean and dynamic. I am a bit biased towards AE drivers, I like their design priorities as well as the look. Compare them to PHL and if either comes out as a clear winner then I'd suspect something is funky somewhere.

Got it, How else to kill a ten hour trip eh? Should have known it would have come up.

Then you already know exactly what Phil thought of the drivers (I'm talking the bass drivers, 15's I think)..I was decidedly underwhelmed bass wise. My opinions etc, my bass destroyed the AE bass.

The mids on Phils were AE too??? can't recall...think they could have been. Anyway, it was the mids phil tells me were OOP. On Phils I was only talking about the bass, we could not make a decision about the mids due to the above.

In MINE, I used Bretts AE tens. they were not OOP, I AM directly comparing the range 200-1000 or so between the AE and PHL.

Dunno about funky, but two different experiences. Let's say I would never buy them.

So, interesting theory of yours. I'll put it in the "haven't figured it out yet" box.

Not, just to clarify, I was not talking about imaging etc (tho timing, absence of first early reflections etc do help) but more explaining the envelopment. The more the bass swells around and washes over you, equally the more the rest.

As I say, theory only. Seems to make sense.

Anyway, how easy is it for you to bypass the subs yet extend the bass from the mains to match. Ie same FR in the bass at the LP, one with subs one without subs. Hopefully one click to swap.

that is the test. We will try it in oct here and see what we find eh?

yeah,you saw my special design PRDs.

Looking forward to Bathurst, sheesh it's coming up quick!

I have the RWC in between that! So will be busy.

[JohnR]

At some point I'd like to get hold of some AE TD18s which are an 18" woofer. They are pricey at $1400 for a pair! They measure beautifully flat, so well that they could be coaxed into working as a two way with a compression driver. Not that I would try it but it's pretty impressive that it could actually be done.

Hi Paul, they are USD399 ea in the AE store, is the shipping doubling it? Or is someone selling them locally now?

Where did you find the measurements?

[paulspencer]

That's what they cost shipped. Yes, shipping hurts! You have to handle these drivers to understand. Even the TD10M is seriously heavy. The magnet is huge, not just the diameter but also the depth. It's built like a sub driver. Some pro 18 woofers can be lifted with a finger, not these! The new version of the TD18H is prettier too, as seen here:

http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2011/05/unity-horns-acoustic-elegance-td18h.html

I measured some fairly recently, really nice smooth response.

We will try it in oct here and see what we find eh?

Sounds good.

I have compared subs + mains vs mains with EQ to match in the past. First test found out that my subs weren't too good! Second test was curiosity. The difference was not massive, but I did prefer with the subs. I was mostly paying attention to the bass.

[paulspencer]

I've seen some online somewhere, but I've also taken some.

[terry j]

That's what they cost shipped. Yes, shipping hurts! You have to handle these drivers to understand. Even the TD10M is seriously heavy.

I'll back you up totally on that point. I can't remember which AE tens I had, but I CAN tell you the AE weighed around the same as the PHL when in the box I made. Remember that box with the tens stuck on top? So that box with the PHL in it was probably still outweighed by the raw AE ten.

Sounds good.

I have compared subs + mains vs mains with EQ to match in the past. First test found out that my subs weren't too good! Second test was curiosity. The difference was not massive, but I did prefer with the subs. I was mostly paying attention to the bass.

Ok, I will try to get that set up. Have decided NOT to change anything on the weekend...a few beers, get excited and try and do things for nigel (remember I was only making plans for nigel) and BANG, blown tweeter.

beers and setting up speakers do not go together.

Just had my first listen with the second sub in. Could be all auto suggestion, but yeah I reckon that theory of mine makes sense.
'
ciao

[tuyen]

I'm quite happy with my GOTO UNIT SG-380WN  15" bass drivers.

Although a bit pricey I must admit..