[John Casler]

Thanks. So far I am having trouble noticing the changes when removing putty but I can definately hear that the midrange is kinda grainy like an old 78 record. I will experiment some more when I get a free day....

RB,

I'm not sure where you are in the tuning process, but I think you are trying just too many things, before the speakers are properly seated (broken in)

You need to start with the basics.

1) placement
2) positioning
3) convergence
4) putty
5) pots
6) tweaks

1) You may have to play with this a bit, but many times after moving the speakers around a bit they just "snap" into clairity and solid sound.

Remember this placement will determine ultimatly how the speakers interact with your room boundaries and room surfaces.

This will affect the bass response and the reflected sound you have to deal with.

2) In this I am refering to you "tilting" for standing up and listening.  I do this too, but only because I am tall and not for "standing".  If you are tilting them back, you open up a sonic "vacumn" cavity under the speaker base that can suck the bass out.  

What it really does is takes away a solid boundary that the bass wave is following and opens it up so the bass energy can escape.  If you are going to tilt them, put something solid under the front that replaces that "hole in the bass dike" you just opened.

3) Make sure and converge the speaker on the listening area properly.  I like direct, nearfeild, on axis convergence.  You may like to either converge them in front of you or behind you.  Any of these three will require different "tuning".

4) Some make much too big a deal of the putty pinching.  Remove your pea or two, and then let the speaker break in for 30-45 days.  Unless the bass is really terrible, you don't need to be "fingernailing" it just yet.

Live with the speaker for a while and get used to what it sounds like with a wide variety of material.

5) set the pots at 12:00 ish.  If that doesn't have enough, detail for you then boost it a 1/4 hour until you're close.  In the begininng it is a bit better to run them too hot to overavtivate the ribbon to break it in faster.

After 30 days they will begin to smooth out and breathe.  Make sure and get a small screw driver that allows you to "feel" each winding on the pots so you can make additional "finite" adjustments.

6) If you're missing some of the "impact" you mentioned, then try the "sonic director" tweak I have mentioned a few times and "direct the bass energy from the upper woofer more towards you while keeping it from bouncing off the ceiling and dissipating into "sonic reflections"

this tweak alone may allow you to "untilt" your speakers, since it definatley improves response from the standing position.

If you take alittle time and become familiar with your speaker and its abililties, it will show you some beautiful music.  It is like a peice of clay.  You can't just push it, and expect a sonic sculpture.  Upi need to mold it to what you want it to be.

You need to get the feel of it and learn how it reacts to subtle changes.  Your room and components are your pallette and canvas and you can push paint all over the place or you can blend beautiful colors into great sounding sonic soundscapes.

Relax, and slowly let the music move you.  No big changes nessesary.  It is like a beautiful and occasionally tempermental woman.  Don't rush them, and don't manhadle them, and they can make you very (very) happy

[audiochef]

John, you beat me to it, I agree whole heartedly. Untilt the 40s. Keep that can of worms closed untill you become really familiar witjh these speakers and then you'll  probably leave them verticle.

[jgubman]

Hi John,

good to hear that you like the Cinenova w/ the RM-40s, I'll knock those down on my list of likely suspects for my "grain" issues.

I don't have the Lexicon (that's Blake, my brother-in-law who has the MC-12B), I have a lowly Outlaw 950  handling the processing.

The "grain" I hear isn't present in CDs (I use both a Denon DVD-3800 w/ Burr-Brown 24/192 DACs and a "high-end" yamaha 5-disc changer), which are both fed through to the amps via the analog outs of the CDPs -> Outlaw's analog bypass -> Earthquakes.

I really only have issues w/ DVDs and HT audio, which *might* just be inherent in the dvd encoding format to begin with. I really never noticed it too badly w/ my old Paradigm Studio speakers, but just to make sure I didn't get a bad neo midrange in the LRC, I rehooked up my old, old, old Polk bookshelf and listened to a very offending passage (Godfather pt. 1, about chapter 8 where Duval has dinner w/ the studio head, the scene that preceeds the ol "horse's head in the bed" scene), and there were the "crackling" sounds, just not as detailed as the LRC pronounces them.

So, I've got some investigating to do. It's either:
a) Outlaw preamp
b) 20' audio interconnects btwn Outlaw & Earthquakes (some flavor of Belden terminated w/ Canare RCAs, Blue Jeans Cable brand).
c) Earthquakes (although unlikely, esp. considering how good CDs sound)
d) Weakness inherent to the DVD format, that never really bothered me w/ my previous, less revealing speakers


I'll figure it out.

So, you like the Bryston? The SP1.7 is on my short list to replace the Outlaw (some of the design "features" are a little weird though). Supposed to be very, very musical. Never had the chance to listen to one in person.
Unfortunately, my recent spat of upgrading has hit a stall, something about the wife wanting to rebuild the garage in the spring, blah blah blah...

[Redbone]

Thanks John.  That's a bit more comforting talk with the putty.  The bass is fine, its the mids/treble that I am struggling with.  George called last night and he was quite encouraging.  There are 3 things we agreed I need to do.
1) Let the speakers break in and get used to the sound.
2) Set the speaker placement and add some room treatment.
3) Replace the old HK with a new amp and ICs.

It's gonna take a few months before I'm ready to make any final judgements.  Time will tell.

Pete

[John Casler]

So, you like the Bryston? The SP1.7 is on my short list to replace the Outlaw (some of the design "features" are a little weird though). Supposed to be very, very musical. Never had the chance to listen to one in person.
Unfortunately, my recent spat of upgrading has hit a stall, something about the wife wanting to rebuild the garage in the spring, blah blah blah...

If your looking for an "All in One" Pre/Pro and 2 channel Audio Preamp the SP1.7 is the top of my list.

The "quirks" you mention are basically actual design features to make it the best 2 channel/HT combo for the extreme Audiophile types (you know like us )

As far as the wife.  I think you know what to do  

It must be working so far

[John Casler]

The bass is fine, its the mids/treble that I am struggling with. George called last night and he was quite encouraging.

While I still don't have a handle on your "biamped??" system just yet, I can assure you that the ribbons do take a little while to "bloom".

Consider that they are metallic in nature and constructed a little "tight".  This will cause the midrange to sometimes be slightly recessed and the highs to be a touch "hot" in the beginning.

As they play, they are pushed/pulled thousands (millions) of times to move to their limits.  Once they reach the point where they reach the excursion limit of the mechanical stroke, and even higher SPLs don't push them beyond that, then they are "seated", and then they will sound their best.

This can (depending on hours of play and volume levels) take a couple months or more.

Get ready for them to "smooth out" and "loosen up" into a relaxed crytaline detailed mid and high end.

And one other point.  Don't adjust your system (except for volume) to each and every cut.

Find the best cuts, (your reference cuts)  and tune your system to them.  With the varied quality of todays recordings you will drive yourself crazy trying to retro-engineer some bad discs that are out there.

Keep us abreast of your journey (or intentions) into improving the electronics. (and don't forget cabling!!!)

[jgubman]

Yeah, I agree that, other that the Bryston has the best reputation for "all-in-one" processors. I'm actually glad it doesn't have video switching, one of the selling points actually. Only design issues I have a problem with are:

a) global x/o point for all speakers (I like my RM-40s crossed around 40hz and the other speakers around 80hz)

b) only 5 balanced outputs, and it's not clear to me that if you want to use a 7.1 setup you can use the 5 balanced and the 2 unbalanced. I *think* you're stuck w/ the unbalanced outs if you want 7.1 (definately if you care about the gain differences...).

A) is probably not a biggie and can be gotten around w/ my current Outlaw ICBM or one of your custom Summit Marchard boxes

B) might be a deal killer. dunno. It's definately not a problem w/ my current amps, which don't have balanced ins to begin with, but I'd like to leave my future options open.

My theory is B) is a direct descendent of the SP1.7 being an upgrade of the SP1, I'd like to see a new chasis w/ 7 balanced outputs...

Other option is just getting a preamp w/ pass-through (does the BP20 have passthrough, will the Trinural ever?) and calling it quits.

[Q]

Andrikos - What I am trying to measure is the polarity of the amp output, not the speaker (which is well marked).  I am concerned that one of my amps may reverse the polarity of the speaker output leaving me with an out of phase set up.  I have tried reversing the polarity of the speaker leads on one amp, and it sounded much worse, so I am confident that I have it correct, but I would like to get an undisputable reading on this.
 ...

Use a continuous tone test CD.  Take your voltmeter (on AC volts setting) and measure between the two positive inputs at the speaker.  Then, without changing anything, measure from one postive post to the other negative post from the other amp.  When you are in phase, this latter measurement should be MUCH larger.  In fact, you can use this method to adjust your amps (if they have adjustable gain) to exactly the same gain by trying to get the same output level from both amps.

As for the 9vDC battery....DO NOT use this method!  It will send a spike to your tweeters that can fry the coils at worst, and will send the diaphram to dangerous distances at best.  It is fine for woofers alone, but try this with tweeter, especially without a series capacitor in the crossover, and you will smell smoke!

[Redbone]

Use a continuous tone test CD. Take your voltmeter (on AC volts setting) and measure between the two positive inputs at the speaker. Then, without changing anything, measure from one postive post to the other negative post from the other amp. When you are in phase, this latter measurement should be MUCH larger. In fact, you can use this method to adjust your amps (if they have adjustable gain) to exactly the same gain by trying to get the same output level from both amps.

Excellent, I knew there was someone out there who knew how to do this, and it makes a lot of sense.  Thanks Q.

[Redbone]

Just tried this and it works fine even with regular music, no tone driver.  The voltage difference is in the 3 to 4 volt range.  To level set the amps you would definately need a test CD, but to check polarity regular music is fine.  Thanks again Q.

Update on tuning :

1) The Neoribbons are breaking in, much better sound.

2) The biggest difference is that I have moved the speakers much closer together and decreased the toe-in.  Appparently I had too much toe-in before and it was generating a lot of room interference and bad harmonics.  I am much happier now.  Speaker placement and room treatment have made the biggest difference so far.  Looks like I am still pretty much a sophmore when it comes to tuning.