What's most important in your system

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Jazzman53

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Re: What's most important in your system
« Reply #20 on: 6 Jul 2023, 07:56 pm »
After pondering this question for a while; it seemed futile and contrived to breakdown music reproduction into separate properties with terms like balance, resolution, speed, imaging, etc, and then attempt to prioritize their order of importance.

I consider the speakers to be the final arbiter of a system's sound.  And as a long time speaker designer, balance and synergy were the hardest challenges.  It took me 45 years to get there and finally experience the magic that happens when it all comes together to create an illusion so real it's "spooky". 

So I can't break it down...I can only find a single term that says i all for me: "Spooky-Real"


 
   

Freo-1

Re: What's most important in your system
« Reply #21 on: 6 Jul 2023, 08:05 pm »
After pondering this question for a while; it seemed futile and contrived to breakdown music reproduction into separate properties with terms like balance, resolution, speed, imaging, etc, and then attempt to prioritize their order of importance.

I consider the speakers to be the final arbiter of a system's sound.  And as a long time speaker designer, balance and synergy were the hardest challenges.  It took me 45 years to get there and finally experience the magic that happens when it all comes together to create an illusion so real it's "spooky". 

So I can't break it down...I can only find a single term that says i all for me: "Spooky-Real"


 
 


Always had a soft spot for ESL speakers.  When they are dialed in, they are truly amazing. 

Early B.

Re: What's most important in your system
« Reply #22 on: 6 Jul 2023, 08:31 pm »
Allow me to address the elephant in the room -- most of us have never heard a huge soundstage or what a truly black background sounds like on our systems. Few of us have great bass and virtually none of us knows what real dynamics sound/feel like. Our frame of reference is typically what our gear produces right now. Change a component or cable that improves the sound and now we have a new frame of reference. The point is -- what becomes important in your system will change over time as your system improves. And for the youngsters in the group (under 55) -- as you grow older, your preferences will change.   

Tyson

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Re: What's most important in your system
« Reply #23 on: 6 Jul 2023, 08:51 pm »
Allow me to address the elephant in the room -- most of us have never heard a huge soundstage or what a truly black background sounds like on our systems. Few of us have great bass and virtually none of us knows what real dynamics sound/feel like. Our frame of reference is typically what our gear produces right now. Change a component or cable that improves the sound and now we have a new frame of reference. The point is -- what becomes important in your system will change over time as your system improves. And for the youngsters in the group (under 55) -- as you grow older, your preferences will change.   

I find that live, unamplified live music in a decent acoustic space is a good reference.  I go to lots of live concerts like that every year.  Not because of my audio system, but just because I enjoy the music and the performances.

Freo-1

Re: What's most important in your system
« Reply #24 on: 6 Jul 2023, 09:21 pm »
I find that live, unamplified live music in a decent acoustic space is a good reference.  I go to lots of live concerts like that every year.  Not because of my audio system, but just because I enjoy the music and the performances.


I try to attend live unamplified music performances as well.

BrandonB

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Re: What's most important in your system
« Reply #25 on: 6 Jul 2023, 09:40 pm »
I am not a big concert goer and maybe its because the concerts I have been to sounded awful.  I couldn't understand what they where singing because they had the speakers so loud everything  distorted.  The bass was so boomy it ikept echoing throughout the auditorium.  Now I haven't been to a classical concert in a music haul designed and built for that type of music. That may be a different story and would be great to listen to and attend.  I am in the process of building my system and I hope it is much better than any concert I have ever attended and if it isn't I will be highly disappointed because the music in my car is much better than any live performance I have seen.  I want to reach a level of something I have never listened to live.

Freo-1

Re: What's most important in your system
« Reply #26 on: 7 Jul 2023, 12:06 am »
I am not a big concert goer and maybe its because the concerts I have been to sounded awful.  I couldn't understand what they where singing because they had the speakers so loud everything  distorted.  The bass was so boomy it ikept echoing throughout the auditorium.  Now I haven't been to a classical concert in a music haul designed and built for that type of music. That may be a different story and would be great to listen to and attend.  I am in the process of building my system and I hope it is much better than any concert I have ever attended and if it isn't I will be highly disappointed because the music in my car is much better than any live performance I have seen.  I want to reach a level of something I have never listened to live.


Going to a symphony in a concert hall designed with acoustics in mind is a very moving experience.  You will hear stunningly clear sound that is amazing.  It is a humbling experience for those of us who are trying to obtain that type of sonic reproduction with the home system. Completely different from rock/pop/country live performances. [size=78%] [/size]

BrandonB

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Re: What's most important in your system
« Reply #27 on: 7 Jul 2023, 12:52 am »

Going to a symphony in a concert hall designed with acoustics in mind is a very moving experience.  You will hear stunningly clear sound that is amazing.  It is a humbling experience for those of us who are trying to obtain that type of sonic reproduction with the home system. Completely different from rock/pop/country live performances. [size=78%] [/size]

Yes I really want to go see a symphony. 

Jaytor

Re: What's most important in your system
« Reply #28 on: 7 Jul 2023, 01:18 am »
Large horns will get you there for dynamics.  But then you lose in other areas with large horns.  It's a tradeoff.

Horns can be nicely dynamic, but I've never really been a fan.

Once I get my quad subs from Jay and Don this weekend  :D, I'm pretty sure I will be done with new speakers for the foreseeable future (at least until I'm forced to downsize). There wasn't anything I heard at Pacific Audio Fest that I thought sounded as good as the Line Forces with OB subs (let alone better).

JWCoffman

Re: What's most important in your system
« Reply #29 on: 7 Jul 2023, 01:29 am »
Horns can be nicely dynamic, but I've never really been a fan.

Once I get my quad subs from Jay and Don this weekend  :D, I'm pretty sure I will be done with new speakers for the foreseeable future (at least until I'm forced to downsize). There wasn't anything I heard at Pacific Audio Fest that I thought sounded as good as the Line Forces with OB subs (let alone better).
I attended as well.  Granted, I'm running MTM's right now so my context is not at the same level, but I was blown away by the Audio Group Denmark room with the new Borreson speakers.  Most other rooms were just pretty good to meh.  The Strain Gauge and Tekton room was also memorable, mostly because of what the Strain Gauge could pull out of the grooves.
Some rooms were hilariously bad, mostly because they didn't manage room issues well.

Jaytor

Re: What's most important in your system
« Reply #30 on: 7 Jul 2023, 02:13 am »
I attended as well.  Granted, I'm running MTM's right now so my context is not at the same level, but I was blown away by the Audio Group Denmark room with the new Borreson speakers.  Most other rooms were just pretty good to meh.  The Strain Gauge and Tekton room was also memorable, mostly because of what the Strain Gauge could pull out of the grooves.
Some rooms were hilariously bad, mostly because they didn't manage room issues well.
I thought the Borresons were one of the best rooms as well. I went into the Tekton room a couple times and wasn’t that impressed but it could have easily been the music that was playing.

Overall, I thought the rooms sounded better this year than last. There were only a few rooms that were truly terrible. I tend to give the exhibitors a lot of benefit of the doubt since I know how challenging it is to set up a non-optional room with only a day or two to get it dialed in.

I liked the Spatial X4s with Don Sach’s and Lynn Olsen’s new electronics, particularly given the reasonable price point compared to many rooms. But I do have a preference for open baffle designs.

The big Genesis speakers were a disappointment again this year, although I thought they sounded better than they did last year. But for the price ($680k I think), I would expect to be blown away.

AllanS

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Re: What's most important in your system
« Reply #31 on: 7 Jul 2023, 02:27 am »
I'd have to vote Soundstage & Imaging my most important feature set. …Without those, the metaphoric bubble has burst on making things sound "real".
Agreed.  I wouldn’t have thought so 6 months ago but imprecise soundstage and imaging has been driving me bonkers lately.  If it’s not right nothing is right.

Freo-1

Re: What's most important in your system
« Reply #32 on: 7 Jul 2023, 02:53 am »
Agreed.  I wouldn’t have thought so 6 months ago but imprecise soundstage and imaging has been driving me bonkers lately.  If it’s not right nothing is right.


See if you can audition a Chord DAC.  The Chord M-Scaler with a Qutest/Hugo-2/TT-2 gets the soundstage and time domain right.

JWCoffman

Re: What's most important in your system
« Reply #33 on: 7 Jul 2023, 02:19 pm »
I thought the Borresons were one of the best rooms as well. I went into the Tekton room a couple times and wasn’t that impressed but it could have easily been the music that was playing.

Overall, I thought the rooms sounded better this year than last. There were only a few rooms that were truly terrible. I tend to give the exhibitors a lot of benefit of the doubt since I know how challenging it is to set up a non-optional room with only a day or two to get it dialed in.

I liked the Spatial X4s with Don Sach’s and Lynn Olsen’s new electronics, particularly given the reasonable price point compared to many rooms. But I do have a preference for open baffle designs.

The big Genesis speakers were a disappointment again this year, although I thought they sounded better than they did last year. But for the price ($680k I think), I would expect to be blown away.
This was my first audio show, so I don't have context, but I was prepared for room issues based on other people's experience.  I guess I was surprised at how bad it actually was in some rooms.
The Tektons themselves were fine, what impressed me was the cartridge played through the Atma-Sphere Class D monoblocks.  I particularly noticed how well resolving the chimes on the classical piece they were playing at the time (clear, and appropriately set back in the mix).  All the while the piece itself had an appropriate sense of scale.  I think you are right that the source itself was a big part of my experience there.
The Spatial room was definitely good, I spent a fair amount of time in there.  The only other room I really enjoyed was the GoldenEar room with their new T66, but that's mostly because he played the Pixies for me which was a real departure from the Brubeck-fest that was happening everywhere else (I heard it in 4 different rooms within the span of 2 hours).
The Genesis was in some ways the most disappointing, mostly because they looked impressive but sounded meh.  Actually I don't even like how they look, but I could tell a lot of effort was put into making them look expensive.  I was also disappointed by the Triangle Art room, but I couldn't tell if that was the source since it sounded like they were playing vintage jazz recordings both times I went in.  The first time I went in the speakers were calling attention to themselves with no center image, but the second time the image was straight down the middle (I assume it was a mono recording).  Puzzling choices.
What I got out of the show was a sense of where I thought I should target my efforts with my system, and a sense that my current system of almost entirely DIY gear sounds pretty darn good all things considered.  I also learned definitively that I am not a headphone guy after trying on several pairs of $1000+ cans.  They just don't do it for me.
Back to the original question of this thread, I am partial to imaging and soundstage and the magic trick good speakers can perform. I also enjoy the attack and decay of percussion and guitar within the soundstage.  Finally, you need to be able to crank it from time to time without it falling apart.

rollo

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Re: What's most important in your system
« Reply #34 on: 7 Jul 2023, 03:32 pm »
I find that live, unamplified live music in a decent acoustic space is a good reference.  I go to lots of live concerts like that every year.  Not because of my audio system, but just because I enjoy the music and the performances.

  Agree 100%. The only reference point IMHO. I have been lucky enough to sit with some very famous singers sing right next to me. Sinatra, Dionne Warwick, Dianne Carrol and Vic Damone. Yes awhile ago however the memory is in my head. Hearing Count Basie Live up close or Ben Webster playing solo are my reference points. Lucky me.
  Have any musician friends that play Guitar, Sax, Trumpet ? Or Sing. Ask them to play in your music room in between the speakers. One will learn a lot.


charles