AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Power Conditioning => Topic started by: Spirit on 7 Oct 2006, 04:43 am
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Some of us have been debating (yelling, taunting, cursing...whatever) over the last few days about the effect of cables, power cords and AC conditioners.
Comments have been made by some that all of this is voodoo.
I dropped in to one of my favourite higher end Hifi boutiques here in Toronto and was able to have a few quiet moments with the owner who is an extremely knowledgable audiophile. We started talking about this AC power question. He pilled out of a desk drawer a small device called an AudioPrism NoiseSniffer. Here is a portion of the description from the AudioPrism site:
"The Noise Sniffer ™ is a unique device developed
to detect noise traveling on the power line. Using
an internal circuit that converts line noise to a signal
that will drive a small speaker, the Noise Sniffer ™
makes it possible to "listen" to the EMI and RFI noise
that is almost always present on power lines"
He plugged this little unit straight into the wall and this little sucker started oozing with screeching noise. He unplugged it and walked over to one of AC conditioners that he uses in his shop and plugged into that unit and - dead quiet-.
So what does this mean? I am not really sure. Anyone want to give me a scientific answer as to how this relates to sound quality.
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Here's a link (http://www.audioprism.com/noisesniffer.html) for the Noise Sniffer ™..... :thumb:
His demo was showing you the EMI and RFI that is present on many electrical power lines.
Did he say he could loan it to you to try at home and "listen" to your power grid ?
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Here's a link (http://www.audioprism.com/noisesniffer.html) for the Noise Sniffer ™..... :thumb:
His demo was showing you the EMI and RFI that is present on many electrical power lines.
Did he say he could loan it to you to try at home and "listen" to your power grid ?
Thanks LW,
I know that I was listening to the EMI and RFI in the line, but I am trying to understand if those nuisances actually affect sound quality. As you know, there are those in the Circle that say that conditioners are of no use. Logic tells me that the conditioner was eliminating the noise. So where is the argument that these conditioners are a waste of $?
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So where is the argument that these conditioners are a waste of $?
Won't hear it from me....living in a populated area, a conditioner cleans up the power, making what I hear playing on my system, sound much better. 8)
Got another link for you....balanced power... (http://www.equitech.com/articles/widescreen.html).. :thumb:
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Some of us have been debating (yelling, taunting, cursing...whatever) over the last few days about the effect of cables, power cords and AC conditioners.
Comments have been made by some that all of this is voodoo.
I dropped in to one of my favourite higher end Hifi boutiques here in Toronto and was able to have a few quiet moments with the owner who is an extremely knowledgable audiophile. We started talking about this AC power question. He pilled out of a desk drawer a small device called an AudioPrism NoiseSniffer. Here is a portion of the description from the AudioPrism site:
"The Noise Sniffer ™ is a unique device developed
to detect noise traveling on the power line. Using
an internal circuit that converts line noise to a signal
that will drive a small speaker, the Noise Sniffer ™
makes it possible to "listen" to the EMI and RFI noise
that is almost always present on power lines"
He plugged this little unit straight into the wall and this little sucker started oozing with screeching noise. He unplugged it and walked over to one of AC conditioners that he uses in his shop and plugged into that unit and - dead quiet-.
So what does this mean? I am not really sure. Anyone want to give me a scientific answer as to how this relates to sound quality.
You don't need "purifiers". The power supply circuitry of your sound system already do it for you.
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See....it didn't take long for someone to come along and say you don't need one...but I'd try one....see if you hear any difference in your system.
You be the judge...... :thumb:
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Anyone want to give me a scientific answer as to how this relates to sound quality.
You could post this in the Lab Circle....check with Occam...he's your man.... :thumb:
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Listening - DON'T DO IT
It just opens up a huge can of worms. Suddenly you will be hearing differences between cables, cable connectors, cable orientation, treated and untreated CDs, amplifiers, CD players (it's all zero and ones right?), electrical outlets, things you put your components on, things you put on your components, etc., etc. etc. but people will tell you that your brain is fooling you into believing that there are differences when in fact there are none.
So why waste your time? Listen to what the experts say (how do I get to be one of them?) and eat your vegetables because good health is paramount to good hearing.
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Wiring:
Just go with Signal Cable, Element Cable, or Blue Jean Cable stuff. These (by audiophile standards, very affordable brands) follow Jon Risch recipes (he moderates the Audio Asylum cable forum and is well respected). Would more expensive stuff sound different? (yes); better? (that's subjective to the ear and equipment involved). IMO until your system budget exceeds $10k the money is better spent elsewhere (if you're situation is like most, in the room itself).
Conditioning:
Site dependent. I've heard it make a difference (old light industrial neighborhood), but never where I've lived (50 year old suburb with horrible wiring, 20 year old suburb, new country house). A friend brought one to the 50 year old house and it barely made a difference to me, the money could be much better spent elsewhere. Borrow one or take one home on loan and try it. Before you buy search around here for ideas, there's several low cost options available.
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I realize the DeZorel name comes with pretty heavy baggage around here but they do have a nice spec sheet that explains graphically what a power conditioner does.
http://www.dezorel.co.yu/new/Download/files/techsheet.pdf
When you see that a decenet power contioner filters out more than 18db of high frequency hash and garbage riding the mains at 6k and more than 22db at 12k, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this thing is going to have an effect on the sound of your stereo.
You're distance from the power plant or your location on the 'grid' has less to do with power quality than you think. I live about 7 miles downstream (grid-wise) from my local power plant. I live out in the boonies. There ain't nothin around me but residential homes. There isn't a single manufacturing plant between me and the power plant, nor is there a plant within (probably) 20 grid miles.
What happens when I pulll my (many) power contitioners out of my systems? The soundstage collapses, imaging gets wider, bass becomes muddier, the highs loose definition, the background noise floor goes up significantly, in short, my systems sound like shit without a filter. Oh, and yes, on my HT, the blacks are blacker, the colors more vibrant, better imiage definition, yada yada.
The people that have posted can say what they want but noise riding the Grid is easily measurable with the right instrumentation. That noise sniffer just demonstrated that fact. This noise comes through and is heard in the audible frequency bands. Filtering this noise out will most definately have an audible effect on your system providing your system is of decent resolution. And yes, its absolutely measureable. When it comes to audio gear, I've yet to hear a piece of gear come through the house that hasn't benefited from one of the line filters I use.
Look at it this way, if noise riding the mains weren't an issue, why would a company line Corcom (who makes industrial filters) even be in business selling boatloads of filters. (oh, if you look hard at their filter designs and specs, they are amazingly close to those we use in hi-end audio).
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I think it is more system-dependent than anything else, just like much of what we hear in our systems is room-dependent. Not only can there be more noise in the line at one house compared to a friend's house on the other side of town, but our components can also emit EMI and also become sources of noise. How closely each component is placed to each other and how well they are shielded, as well as type of interconnects used can make a difference. (Want a problem that can drive you bats: turn on just your amp and listen for a radio station as the tubes become minature antennae.) We, a person can drive himself crazy thinking about all of this. I have an audiophile friend that doesn't believe in conditioners and cables and he enjoyed great hifi sound. Another friend down the road can't believe how much effect his new Stereovox i/c made in his system. Everyone can't afford to buy the best conditioners, power cords, i/c, speaker cables, and isolation devices. So the best thing to do leave those things for last (once you're settled on the main components) and try changing one thing at a time. Maybe focus on just conditioners first, then power cords, then i/c, etc. You'll learn quickly if you'll hear a difference with your particular setup and room acoustics. You might have clean power coming to your outlet yet have noisy components and need to focus more on separation. Then, a nice rack would be more valuable to you then $2k worth of conditioners. If you have noisy power, one nice CD player sitting beside a nice integrated amp, then you can go cheap on the shelf and get a nice conditioner. If you have a TT, then you may need a nice rack, etc. You see where I'm going with this. Of course, if you feel your have clean power already, you may need a conditioner anyway just so you can increase the number of outlets going to all of your components. Getting back to your original question / comment, there are viable reasons why many folk don't hear any differences in conditioners or even need them, but for some they are necessities. For me, I wanted to cover all my bases and just bought a decent conditioner that gave me all the outlets I needed, as well as decent (not the best) power cords, i/c, speaker cables, etc. If I ever get in the mood, I might focus on comparing different i/c or whatever, but I know it'll come at a very high cost to try everything. (Sorry for rambling on!)
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The point that needs to be made is that the design and implimentation of the power supply IN EACH COMPONENT YOU OWN will determine your need for treatment/filtration. Some are great, some are crap, and most are in between.
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Here's a link (http://www.audioprism.com/noisesniffer.html) for the Noise Sniffer ™..... :thumb:
His demo was showing you the EMI and RFI that is present on many electrical power lines.
Did he say he could loan it to you to try at home and "listen" to your power grid ?
Btw - I have one of these Noise Sniffers if anyone in the NJ/NY area wants to try it...
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You don't need "purifiers". The power supply circuitry of your sound system already do it for you.
I agree with this in principle, but my experience tells me different.
I built a single stage SET headphone amp. I listened to it alone, through an Adcom AC Enhancer and a balanced power conversion transformer. All three sounded different and I preferred the sound without any conditioning. The only measured difference was a 4 vdc drop at the plate with the balanced transformer filter connected.
My power supply is very well filtered (CLCLCRC - it is a headphone amp after all) and I live in the country. I assume my feed is not very noisy and my DC is normally very low ripple (I hear no hum whatever). Why the difference? Current draw maybe? My imagination is a distinct possibility but I would think it would err in favor of the corrective devices, not against them. Who knows?
I can say for sure that two different approaches to conditioning had a sonic effect on a well designed (I built it so it has to be :D) power supply. For the worse in my estimation. Beyond that I can only speculate.
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Well I'll start off with I own 2 different AC line conditioners an INOUYE S.P.L.C. which uses SOLEN air core inductors inside it and
also I have a SIMA LF2 which employs several ferrite rings inside (like a CHANG on steroids ) they sound different from one and other
come to think they also both were completely different than my first AC line cleaner a ADCOM 535 or 515 I think was
the model .All 3 line conditioners are audible in my system , and not just to my ears ask my friend who owned the CHANG we could detect audible differences between all 4 units . As for interconnects Kimber PBJ I think are my favorite inexpensive cable not as good as my VAN DEN HUL D102mkIII (and at the price shouldn't be as good) but still really good . Lastly the AC in my area is always better late at night or on the weekend when there is not as much on the grid .
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I wonder how many audiophiles spend thousands to clean up the A/C when the 40 year old freezer in the neighbor's garage (or something similar) is the culprit? Again, IMO it's a location specific issue. Just try borrowing a conditioner to see if it helps.
BTW I use cryo'd plenum rated single strand CAT5 for speaker cable (that cost all of $20 from a group buy a few years ago). I know heavier gauge (16 - 18) would help bass output and I have such a pair of Element Cables that do provide more bass but it's a convenience issue for right now and I'm not suffering.
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You don't need "purifiers". The power supply circuitry of your sound system already do it for you.
No, they generally don't, at least not adequately. Your lack of empirical curiosity is appalling. Like Athena, your conclusions spring fully formed from your head. But sadly, you are no Zeus. Are you skirvis is disguise? If wishes were fishes......
To everyone else -
I heard a PS Audio Duet Power Center yesterday -
http://www.psaudio.com/products/duet_power_center.asp
Its $100 dollars off this month @$299. Its really quite impressive, and will run a whole system (though possibly not a 250wpc+ amp). The conditioners I build are (IMO) better, but if I sold them, they'd be more expensive.
Take one home making sure you've a return privilege. If you don't hear an improvement, or feel the improvement isn't worth it, return it. Heck, you may have pristine mains power. Or you may have perfect components just like LightFire. :roll:
But please, please, form your opinions by actually listening and evaluating, rather than pulling your conclusions out your arse.
FWIW,
Paul
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Results certainly vary.... as do explanations for them.
I'm at a loss to explain the subjective differences in terms of engineering principles. I'm not one of those people who deny all subjective experience, I just prefer to remain sceptical of it as a good data source when trying to engineer something. When making a personal purchase it is high on my priority list though. :|
My personal experience is that sometimes equipment sounds worse with a line filter attached. Why.... there could be some kind of resonance between the primary of the power supply & the filter network, it could just sound better with HF noise in the circuit, it could just be my imagination. :scratch: Anyway... it is one of those things I experiment with to find my own personal preference for a given piece of equipment in a given room. I don't put much more thought into it and put the situation down to one of those inexplicable features of the universe. :)
Balanced power units make a lot of sense and I've had much more success with them rather than simple L-C filter networks.
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Hello, Kevin.
Results certainly vary.... as do explanations for them.
I'm at a loss to explain the subjective differences in terms of engineering principles. I'm not one of those people who deny all subjective experience, I just prefer to remain sceptical of it as a good data source when trying to engineer something. When making a personal purchase it is high on my priority list though. :|
My personal experience is that sometimes equipment sounds worse with a line filter attached. Why.... there could be some kind of resonance between the primary of the power supply & the filter network, it could just sound better with HF noise in the circuit, it could just be my imagination. :scratch:
What a breath of fresh air!
It would really be nice to see more people take such a humble and rational approach to such things as you do here.
se
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My experience is quite limited compared to the rest of you but here goes my take.
*Power cords do make a difference: try to get one that is the same gauge as the Romex wiring in your house. I've had soundstages shrink and dynamics go down with anything less. They can be found or made quite cheaply.
*Use hospital grade outlets: they provide a great grip and are made so much better than the crap presently in your house.
*Try not to use any power conditioners or filters or surge protectors as they simply get in the way. I've only tried a few and every one of them stifled the sound in one way or another.
*Just keep it as simple and well built as you can and your system will shine as intended.
Tim
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You don't need "purifiers". The power supply circuitry of your sound system already do it for you.
No, they generally don't, at least not adequately. Your lack of empirical curiosity is appalling. Like Athena, your conclusions spring fully formed from your head. But sadly, you are no Zeus. Are you skirvis is disguise? If wishes were fishes......
To everyone else -
I heard a PS Audio Duet Power Center yesterday -
http://www.psaudio.com/products/duet_power_center.asp
Its $100 dollars off this month @$299. Its really quite impressive, and will run a whole system (though possibly not a 250wpc+ amp). The conditioners I build are (IMO) better, but if I sold them, they'd be more expensive.
Take one home making sure you've a return privilege. If you don't hear an improvement, or feel the improvement isn't worth it, return it. Heck, you may have pristine mains power. Or you may have perfect components just like LightFire. :roll:
But please, please, form your opinions by actually listening and evaluating, rather than pulling your conclusions out your arse.
FWIW,
Paul
I am no zeus and no idiot either.
The only power "purifier" you will ever need is a surge protector power bar. You should be able to buy a good one at a maximum of US$ 100.00. It will protect your equipment but not improve your sound (the expensive purifier will not improve your sound either). And please note any listening test to be valid has to be a double blind ABX.
Now if you are full of empirical BS like Occam you could go ahead, pull a bucket of money out your arse like he does and buy some audio cosmetics to see how cool they look.
Do your research, use your brains. This is a good article to start:
http://www.theaudiocritic.com/cwo/Sample_Articles/ (http://www.theaudiocritic.com/cwo/Sample_Articles/)
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If clean power is just a bunch of B.S., then can someone explain why the folks on the following list spend their money with Equi=Tech?
http://www.equitech.com/ourclients/someclients.html
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LightFire,
The one thing I've not heard from you is that you've tried whatever specific powerconditioner, and you've found it wanting. But you can't be bothered to actually listen, because its far easier to let 'The Audio Critic' do your thinking for you. You can't be bothered to actually listen to the products from Equitech, BPT, PSAudio as you already have a complete audio theory of all things.
No, I've not done DBT, but have done repeated SBT. Very similar to the experiments described by many of the naysayers, save for the fact that I actually switch the components not under test FULLY out of the circuit. I also build things. And JoshK and Tianguis can tell you that I'm rather fond of dpdt (center off) switches for on the fly SBTs on parallel components. Many conditioners are detrimental, or just plain mediocre. I mentioned the new PSAudio Duet (I've not been impressed with previous PSAudio power products), because (at least here in the Nasty Apple) its effect wasn't a minor improvement, but a massive one, apparent to all. No doubt you'd also say that the universal agreement on the positive effects of running components through PhilNYC's Audience Adept rather than through just his dedicated lines on many different occasions is mass hysteria.
Now if you are full of empirical BS like Occam you could go ahead, pull a bucket of money out your arse like he does and buy some audio cosmetics to see how cool they look.
Folks hereabouts know that I build my own powerconditioners. As cumbersome and bulky as they may be, others who've built them also must be delusional as they seem to think they offer worthwhile improvements.
'Empirical BS'?????
I've allways thought that's the way science and engineering is supposed to be done. We simply disagree over metrics. THAT BS has held me in good stead in my vocations; starting with it being pounded into me by a Nobel Laureate as his technician at Hopkins Medical School.
I certainly never referred to you, or even thought of you as an idiot. You seem quite functional and articulate. Me thinks you dost protest too much.
EDIT No, I certainly don't think you an idiot. Rather, you are simply a troll. Your name says it all. You get your jollies by causing conflict, by 'lighting fires'. Your posts are obviously geared to do so. I think your posts are not based on personal experience. Its far easier to swallow someone else's credo, rather than actually coming to your own conclusions by actually conducting your own experiments. You simply post drivel from the AudioCritic and try to pass it off as your own. Your posts are derivative and boring, lacking any originality of thought.
Your reference to 'empirical BS' only confirms your lack of education, either practical or formal.
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If clean power is just a bunch of B.S., then can someone explain why the folks on the following list spend their money with Equi=Tech?
Well, Equi=Tech isn't so much about "clean power" as they are about "balanced power" which in itself does nothing to clean up junk on the AC mains but rather addresses the problem of equipment chassis leakage currents on the AC safety ground lead.
se
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The only power "purifier" you will ever need is a surge protector power bar.
Ah. Then, that must be one of those "widgets" that suppresses any and all ground loop currents formed by flux trapped within the ground loop, so that the input node is always zero referred to all source chassis...
Oops, waittaminute..your widget only absorbs transients, no? How do you account for Faraday's law of induction at the input end??
Do your research, use your brains. This is a good article to start:
http://www.theaudiocritic.com/cwo/Sample_Articles/ (http://www.theaudiocritic.com/cwo/Sample_Articles/)
I did, and I used my own brains (for a change)....Peter's article is so full of holes that the only beings who like it also understand the cosmic meaning of the number "42".
Cheers, John
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Well, Equi=Tech isn't so much about "clean power" as they are about "balanced power" which in itself does nothing to clean up junk on the AC mains but rather addresses the problem of equipment chassis leakage currents on the AC safety ground lead.
Steve,
You might actually look inside an Equitech product, and see the grounding lead for the shield between primary and secondary. Or the Corcom filters, or the capacitors.
If you read Glasband's patents, there are about as many claims dealing with differential noise as the cancellation of reactive leakage currents.
And if you believe your ears, a simple switch on a balancing conditioner's secondary center tap will allow you to switch between isolated and technical power so that you can make your own assessment of how much benefit is provided by the balancing and how much from other noise attenuation.
FWIW,
Paul
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.......
Do your research, use your brains. This is a good article to start:
http://www.theaudiocritic.com/cwo/Sample_Articles/ (http://www.theaudiocritic.com/cwo/Sample_Articles/)
It would be a good idea if the AudioCritic updated their twaddle -
8. Conditioner Lie
Just about all that needs to be said on this subject has been said by Bryston in
their owner’s manuals:“All Bryston amplifiers contain high-quality, dedicated circuitry in the power supplies to reject RF, line spikes and other power-line problems. Bryston power amplifiers do not require specialized power line conditioners. Plug the amplifier directly into its own wall socket.”
What they don’t say is that the same is true, more or less, of all well-designed amplifiers. They may not all be the Brystons’
equal in regulation and PSRR, but if they are any good they can be plugged directly into a wall socket. If you can afford a fancy power conditioner you can also afford a well-designed amplifier, in which case you don’t need the fancy power conditioner. It will do absolutely
nothing for you. (Please note that we aren’t talking about surge-protected power strips for computer equipment.
Sounds great save for the fact that Brystron has changed their position -
http://www.bryston.ca/
Bottom left, 'Torus Power Power Conditioner'
and it might be that Bryston has cynically identified a market opportunity, or it may be that they actually listened......
LightFire - You might ask Mr. Tanner on the Bryston board here on AudioCircle why he has foresaken your deeply held beliefs.
Could you do us all a favor? Rather than regurgitate exactly what is in the AudioCritic, save your typing efforts and just give us the specific number of your well reasoned conclusions.
Regards,
Paul
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Folks hereabouts know that I build my own powerconditioners. As cumbersome and bulky as they may be, others who've built them also must be delusional as they seem to think they offer worthwhile improvements.
Occam:
Can you recommend an AC device that is commericlally available that will do the following:
a: not break the bank.
b: purify and protect
c: make more than a miniscule sound difference.
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.......
Do your research, use your brains. This is a good article to start:
http://www.theaudiocritic.com/cwo/Sample_Articles/ (http://www.theaudiocritic.com/cwo/Sample_Articles/)
It would be a good idea if the AudioCritic updated their twaddle -
8. Conditioner Lie
Just about all that needs to be said on this subject has been said by Bryston in
their owner’s manuals:“All Bryston amplifiers contain high-quality, dedicated circuitry in the power supplies to reject RF, line spikes and other power-line problems. Bryston power amplifiers do not require specialized power line conditioners. Plug the amplifier directly into its own wall socket.”
What they don’t say is that the same is true, more or less, of all well-designed amplifiers. They may not all be the Brystons’
equal in regulation and PSRR, but if they are any good they can be plugged directly into a wall socket. If you can afford a fancy power conditioner you can also afford a well-designed amplifier, in which case you don’t need the fancy power conditioner. It will do absolutely
nothing for you. (Please note that we aren’t talking about surge-protected power strips for computer equipment.
Sounds great save for the fact that Brystron has changed their position -
http://www.bryston.ca/
Bottom left, 'Torus Power Power Conditioner'
and it might be that Bryston has cynically identified a market opportunity, or it may be that they actually listened......
LightFire - You might ask Mr. Tanner on the Bryston board here on AudioCircle why he has foresaken your deeply held beliefs.
Could you do us all a favor? Rather than regurgitate exactly what is in the AudioCritic, save your typing efforts and just give us the specific number of your well reasoned conclusions.
Regards,
Paul
Great point:
I guess the Bryston people have:
a: all of a sudden found a flaw un their internal power supply
or
b: found a way to make more money.
In either case, it makes you wonder, doesn't it?
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Spirit,
From the last page -
I heard a PS Audio Duet Power Center yesterday -
http://www.psaudio.com/products/duet_power_center.asp
Its $399 (dang, the $100 off was only for Sept). Its really quite impressive, and will run a whole system,though possibly not a 250wpc+ amp, dunno.
Take one home making sure you've a return privilege. If you don't hear an improvement, or feel the improvement isn't worth it, return it. Heck, you may have pristine mains power. Or you may have perfect components with perfect power supplies.
I've never been overly impressed with the PSAudio UltraOutlets, Power Directors, or UPC units. The Duet is IMO substantially better. I assume the Quintet, a larger version of the Duet, offers similar improvements. Simly put, when inserted into my friends system, in a large elevator condo building, with absolute crap power, everything was mo betta. I've never heard his system sound better, and was IMO, a massive positive change from one components change/addition.
FWIW,
Paul
EDIT - Another alternative might be the APC h15, which is an active powerconditioner, which Bill Gaw thinks is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
http://www.apc.com/products/category.cfm?id=15
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0806/aachapter82.htm
Actually, the specific product he is swooning over is the APC s15, which is supposed to be the same but with battery backup. Unless you've a video projector with an expensive bulb, the S15 seems overkill, but more importantly, I can't find the S15 discounted on Froogle. I've not heard the H15 or S15, but Scott Faller tells me Bill Gaw knows of what he speaks, even though he seems to find the 'greatest ever' on a monthly basis.
At discount the APC h15 is comparable in price to the PSAudio Duet -
http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=apc+h15&btnG=Search
But I've not heard it, and can't recommend its purchase without a return privledge. Ideally, one might get both the APC s15 and the PSAudio Duet with return privleges and keep either or none, depending on your own evaluation in your own system.
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Something one might ask is if many/large parts are needed for a great conditioner, to really do the job right, is it feasible to incorporate one into each component? Physical limitations, someone could do a better job than another manufactuer etc. It would seem to me that obtaining the best separate conditioner would be the way to go.
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You might actually look inside an Equitech product, and see the grounding lead for the shield between primary and secondary. Or the Corcom filters, or the capacitors.
If you read Glasband's patents, there are about as many claims dealing with differential noise as the cancellation of reactive leakage currents.
Point taken, but electrostatic shielding between the transformer's primary and secondary and Corcom line filters brings nothing new to the table and is rather commonly employed in equipment power supplies already.
What Equi=Tech's bailiwick is, and what they're REALLY trying to sell people on is balanced power. Which as I said in my previous post hasn't so much to do with noise on the AC mains but rather noise caused by chassis leakage currents.
The point of my post was simply that a list of people using Equi=Tech's gear, the primary emphasis of which is balanced power, doesn't necessarily say much with regard to "clean power."
And if you believe your ears, a simple switch on a balancing conditioner's secondary center tap will allow you to switch between isolated and technical power so that you can make your own assessment of how much benefit is provided by the balancing and how much from other noise attenuation.
Personally, the only use I have for AC power anymore is as a convenient means for charging batteries. :green:
(http://www.q-audio.com/images/noac2.jpg)
se
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Difference between APC s15 and their other much cheaper smart xl ups products? The s15 does talk about isolated filters. Both however output pure sine wave and regulate voltage. Is this merely a way of charging more for an A/V product? Plan on running DAC and Preamp on just battery power. Anybody else tried this?
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Slugworth - I can certainly understand your missing the point that the main interest of many audiophiles is the efficacy of powerconditioning when mains power IS available, as it seems that someone, for unknown nefarious reasons, is stealing the subject from all your sentences.
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Slugworth - I can certainly understand your missing the point that the main interest of many audiophiles is the efficacy of powerconditioning when mains power IS available, as it seems that someone, for unknown nefarious reasons, is stealing the subject from all your sentences.
Don't you know? He is an objectivist. He got rid of the subject. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Woodsyi, subjectively, I object!
On the nature of listening to ANYBODY's recommendations -
I did a search for reviews of the APC H and S type conditioners.
Along with the previously mentioned Enjoy the Music review -
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0806/aachapter82.htm
I also found these 3 -
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/accessories/1005apc/
http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/apc_h15.htm
http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=1594
The later 3, which basically say the APC products are not the greatest thing since sliced bread, seem to contradict the 1st. All I can say is that the efficacy of power conditioning depends on the quality of your mains as well as the product itself. One should never buy a conditioner unless you've had the opportunity to hear it in your own system, and barring that, without a return privilege.
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Personally, the only use I have for AC power anymore is as a convenient means for charging batteries.
se
I'm in the same boat as you, SE aa
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Wiring:
Just go with Signal Cable, Element Cable, or Blue Jean Cable stuff. These (by audiophile standards, very affordable brands) follow Jon Risch recipes (he moderates the Audio Asylum cable forum and is well respected). Would more expensive stuff sound different? (yes); better? (that's subjective to the ear and equipment involved). IMO until your system budget exceeds $10k the money is better spent elsewhere (if you're situation is like most, in the room itself).
Conditioning:
Site dependent. I've heard it make a difference (old light industrial neighborhood), but never where I've lived (50 year old suburb with horrible wiring, 20 year old suburb, new country house). A friend brought one to the 50 year old house and it barely made a difference to me, the money could be much better spent elsewhere. Borrow one or take one home on loan and try it. Before you buy search around here for ideas, there's several low cost options available.
JLM, Good advise !! I know of nothing in our hobby that stirs the blood like cable and wiring debates !!
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I'm in the same boat as you, SE aa
Hey Vinnie!
Yeah, one day I just sat down and thought about it all and finally went sane (c.f. Wonko the Sane). :o
I mean, you have some people putting in dedicated lines, sometimes using audiophile approved AC wiring, connected to audiophile approve AC outlets, for audiophile approved AC cords to feed a plethora of conditioners, filters, regenerators, etc. in an attempt to achieve a perfect and pristine 120 volt, 60 Hz sinewave (or other depending what country you're in).
And even if one were to achieve this goal, it's worthless on its own as everything, save for some turntable motors, is ultimately powered by DC, not AC.
So now we have to take our perfect and pristine 120 volt, 60 Hz sinewave and chop it up with rectifier diodes which typically feed large reservoir capacitors in order to get something more closely approximating DC. This rectifier/capacitor combination then causes current to be drawn from the line in short haversine pulses which can cause the line to radiate noise, and on top of that, there's the 120 Hz ripple voltage and its associated harmonics which appear across the capacitors, and if we want to get rid of that, we have to start adding voltage regulators and so on. Y'ever see companies actually brag about the huge number of voltage regulators they employ in their designs?
It's madness I tell ya! Madness! :green:
se
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Interesting reading here! So is it likely that power conditioners (not voltage regulators) are just a gimmick, or is it important to filter out the high frequency noise on an AC line? Does the high frequency noise (when present) actually impair audio performance in a measurable (objective) manner?
P.S. I believe Musical Fidelity brags about choke-regulation on several of their products...
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Interesting reading here! So is it likely that power conditioners (not voltage regulators) are just a gimmick, or is it important to filter out the high frequency noise on an AC line? Does the high frequency noise (when present) actually impair audio performance in a measurable (objective) manner?
P.S. I believe Musical Fidelity brags about choke-regulation on several of their products...
Wish it was that easy. It might.... depends on the situation. If you have RFI ingress into the chassis you can have an op amp oscillate. In that case you may have audible levels of distortion. Or.... it may cause no problem at all and do nothing audible.
It depends on too many variables to give you an easy answer. Good engineers will design equipment to minimize the RFI that gets into our out of the chassis as part of good design practice.
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Does the high frequency noise (when present) actually impair audio performance in a measurable (objective) manner?
Hi NewBuyer,
Well if the power supply section of an audio component (e.g. amplifier) does not remove the high frequency noise, that noise will be present on the DC voltage rail(s). The input signal of an amplifier modulates the amplifier's DC voltage rails (an amplifier does not make the input signal bigger....it uses the input signal as a "template" for making a new signal that is supposed to be a copy of the input, but a larger one. Aside from being larger, the variance of the output compared to the input is distortion).
In the case of the amplfier, if the noise passes through its power supply, it ends up on the DC rails, which is what the speaker outputs are actually made from.... so YES, it ends up on the signal going to your speakers.
In the case of a source (e.g. CDP)...same idea, but now that low-level output signal (with the noise on it...if it's power supply doesn't remove it) goes to an amplifier and ends up getting amplified, and so does the noise!
IMHO, a good power conditioner DOES make a difference (improvement!) in a system. I've heard it many times... clean power results in less grain to the sound, less backgound noise, cleaner imaging, etc. You can also measure the rails on a scope, before and after using a power conditioner.
Also, some power supplies in components actually ADD noise in the AC to DC conversion process. A good example is a switch mode power supply. They can even add noise back onto the AC line. They also can radiate noise (RFI) that a nearby component can pick up (such as a AM/FM Tuner). You don't even need to measure it to know it is there... you'll easily hear the interference.
So much can be written about this subject. I just wanted to pass on some background on why clean power is important.
Best regards,
Vinnie
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Thanks to both of you - this is all very informative. In addition to amps, do any of you feel that high-frequency AC noise might also impact/degrade digital gear performance, such as a DAC or clock chip?
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Thanks to both of you - this is all very informative. In addition to amps, do any of you feel that high-frequency AC noise might also impact/degrade digital gear performance, such as a DAC or clock chip?
RFI at the levels you to pick up from airborne and radiated transmission is extremely low in comparison to the output signal level of the main power supply rails. Also... there is a transformer in the way... big inductor that makes a high pass filter. The only way it can get transferred via conducted methods is via the ground to the chassis and via capacitive coupling between the primary & secondary of the transformer. Where it becomes a problem is the wire run from the IEC input to the power switch & primary of the transformer. Over that length is will re-radiate throughout the chassis. It does so at low levels relative to the actual signal and at the frequencies we are talking about, even if your loudspeaker where capable of playing these frequencies (it isn't) would be swamped by the program material.
Where it is a problem is how it interacts with the circuit design of the amplifier/preamplifier or digital source (CD player, DAC etc...). Most op amps are much wider bandwidth than just needed for audio. Many can be caused to go crazy (oscillate) when fed the right (or should I say wrong) input signal. That is where RFI is a problem. Not directly but indirectly. By causing the op amps in the signal path to oscillate you cause the distortion levels in the program material to skyrocket in unpredictable ways. That would apply to a DAC or other digital source as well as amplifier or preamplifier.
Ironically valve based gear is probably much more immune to the effects than are modern wide-bandwidth integrated circuits. :icon_lol:
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Personally, the only use I have for AC power anymore is as a convenient means for charging batteries.
se
I'm in the same boat as you, SE aa
That's all well and good, but tell me- how many batteries & how big will they need to be to keep my pair of Hsu subs running at Dolby Reference levels all the way thru Lord of the Rings! :banana piano:
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As I shop for power delivery/conditioning units, I remembered this interesting thread.
It seems that the main benefit from power conditioners may be from lessening RFI, and more specifically, those RFI frequencies that apparently can cause op-amps to oscillate (I'm gathering this from previous posts in this thread).
Am I restating this accurately? If so, what frequencies are we realistically talking about here - are these frequencies up in the MHz range?
It is interesting to me that the power supplies in our equipment wouldn't filter-out conducted EMI/RFI already during the AC/DC conversion. I've occasionally read that an audio designer would have to be astonishingly poor at designing their equipment and power supply, if a separate input AC conditioner was actually needed to make it perform at the top level it was designed for. Is that correct?
Perhaps instead of looking for a great power conditioner, should I really be avoiding any equipment makers whose products would ever need such a conditioner? :?:
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It seems that the main benefit from power conditioners may be from lessening RFI, and more specifically, those RFI frequencies that apparently can cause op-amps to oscillate (I'm gathering this from previous posts in this thread).
Wayne's supposition as to the susceptibility of opamps (either monolithic or discrete) might well be correct (feedback network senior moments?), but you'll find radically different topologies similarly benefit from adequate power conditioning. Those benefits in a 'darling' or 'Baby Sofia' SET tube amp can be just as large, if not larger.
Perhaps instead of looking for a great power conditioner, should I really be avoiding any equipment makers whose products would ever need such a conditioner? :?:
So after you buy that CAT preamp, whaddaya gonna do? Give it 3 years, and some vendors will realize power conditioning is best implemented in the component itself because the load conditions are specifically known. Or possibly vendors are correct in that customers, overall, are frankly unwilling to pay that incremental cost, and those consumers that actually build systems for sound quality will understand their need for external conditioning, even accepting the fact that it may be non optimal and/or costly.
We could palaver endlessly. Audition a PS Audio Duet with a return privilege. I'm not saying its the best out there, just the best, IMO, bang for the buck commercial product that I'm aware of. But metrics do vary as does each system's optimal allocation of resources.
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&rls=GGLR,GGLR:2006-06,GGLR:en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=ps+audio+duet&spell=1
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...Give it 3 years, and some vendors will realize power conditioning is best implemented in the component itself because the load conditions are specifically known. Or possibly vendors are correct in that customers, overall, are frankly unwilling to pay that incremental cost...
This is so interesting! So then, much of our hifi gear potentially could have had "proper" power supplies that address the specific needs of the component, but the designers are specifically choosing not to do it - even though such a decision certainly hampers the very gear they are designing. Thus also requiring the unsuspecting customer to need to purchase yet another component, a power conditioner - all since the designer wasn't willing/able to just put a proper power supply in there, in the first place. Why does this happen - is it all due to cost-cutting?
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We could palaver endlessly. Audition a PS Audio Duet with a return privilege. I'm not saying its the best out there, just the best, IMO, bang for the buck commercial product that I'm aware of. But metrics do vary as does each system's optimal allocation of resources.
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&rls=GGLR,GGLR:2006-06,GGLR:en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=ps+audio+duet&spell=1
Thanks for that info, Paul. Oh yeah, and I didn't mean "palaver", either! ;-)
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NewBuyer,
I'm certainly not suggesting any conspiracy on the part of manufacturers to give less than their best efforts for the money. While I personally believe conditioning is best implemented internally, the counter argument that it is best left external via a dedicated powerconditioner has merit. As conditioning is often bundled with ancillary functions, spike/surge protection, over/under voltage protection and power on/off sequencing, it could certainly be argued that those functions should be centralized.
Regardless, as power quality has declined substantially over time (this is not the fault of audio manufacturers), and if you feel this effects your audio and/or video experience negatively, you have 3 choices -
1. Do nothing and whinge.
2. Buy only those components that have adequate powerconditioning built in, AND ALSO meet your other subjective and objective needs. Good luck with that.... The only component that presently meet those characteristics for me is the CAT preamp.
3. Spend/build/steal whatever external conditioning you feel is justified by your own cost/benefit analysis. Ideally, this should involve actually hearing whatever in your own system, rather than deciding based on internet truthiness.
FWIW,
Paul
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I was a long-time non-believer in power conditioning and power cords until I finally heard a black and white difference while comparing various forms of both in my system.
My system (and room) needed to be up to the task to really hear the differences. (Positioning speakers to within a mm of each other, dedicated power, lots of room treatments, experimentation, measurements, etc.)
The things I'd tried in the past (in my system) were mostly DIY and cheap stuff. Once I tried Black Sand Cables, I was pretty shocked at how much difference a power cord could make. Once I tried a Ridge Springs Audio power conditioner, I was floored at how good things got. I went to a friend's house and repeated what I'd heard at home with the RSA Haley and BSC cables... he bought one on the spot, no questions asked.
So, all I know is until you experience what good power conditioning and cabling can do, you won't get it... I didn't. If Paul says the PS Audio Duet is good, I'd go for it. If you want something a bit nicer, I'd suggest the RSA Halley. I haven't compared the BPT directly to anything but I've heard the BPT in others' systems... and I didn't really like what I (think) it did in those systems. If I get another chance to compare a BPT to an RSA I'll do it...
-C
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I've had multiple different power cords, cryogenically frozen outlets, used the "capacitors between hot and neutral" trick, and I'll be darned if I can tell any difference. Having said that, I use fancier power cords for all of my gear. And, my system is located a scant few feet from my fuse box. Further, my system isn't set up for back-to-back testing of power cords and the like. Consequently, it's very hard for me to do comparisons of power cords. My mind isn't good enough to remember what something sounds like. (Except when installing bass traps -- then it was easy to hear the difference.)
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Oh yeah, and I'll probably buy the PS Audio Duet. It's not too expensive and seems to allow me to run my entire system off of it.
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FYI, This thread went a little astray from the original topic so I split into this new one:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=35411.0
-C
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[I'm copying these questions into this thread, from the other split-off thread, at Marbles' suggestion.]
It was mentioned earlier, that RFI is in fact blocked by the equipment transformers, but the line run from power-cord input to transformer might still radiate RFI into the chassis/internals and cause problems, specifically, could cause op-amp oscillation.
Is RFI the major culprit then, that conditioners aim to reduce? If so, why not just put a R/C, or a ferrite, on the line run in question, or even on the power cord, and eliminate the costly conditioner units?
What are the noise frequencies that we are worrying about here (regarding op-amp oscillation risk, etc) - are they in the MHz ranges, or are they down in the kHz ranges?
Thanks for reading my questions and helping me understand this all better...
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Well I'd say, that cost cutting has always been a part of any product, except stuff up beyond the Mega-buck range. And while they exist, just who buys these $90,000 Turntables, and $10,000 Cartridges, to go with their $40,000 Preamps, and $125,000 SET Power Amps and $100,000 speakers ??? Obviously... people with too much money, and not too much sense. But back here on earth, people who work for a buck, the old vintage equipment which was tubes, and minimalist, and simple, often worked great. And all the power conditioners and filters you could lift, while it probably would do no harm, probably would also do no good.
In fact, at a recent meeting of Audio Syndrome Society, at the end of September, 2006 on a very highly regarded biamped system which used the: VPI Scout TT/Grado Ref Sonata, Sony SACD/DVD transport, Theta Pro Gen II DAC, Van Alstine T8 preamp, Behringer 8024 Dig Eq, heavily modified Heathkit W7m amps (EL34 push pull, rebuilt w/new PS by Paul Schwartz) on the Martin Logan ReQuest Electrostatic Panel speakers, and a Bryston 4B amp on the woofers, with a M&K MX 125- dual 12in subwoofer... the introduction of a power conditioner, made the system worse sounding :scratch:...
I think it was placed on the subwoofer amp, and I seem to recall that it was a Custom Power Cord Company unit, one of the pricier units, but I wasn't really paying attention to what they were doing until they removed it.
So adding in power conditioning one can introduce non-complementary imperfections into an highly perfect system. I almost always use very minimalist equipment, most of which has been designed or rebuilt by myself. In these cases of my stuff, so far, the use of power filters or whatever, has NO EFFECT on the sound, but at least it doesn't hurt (or just maybe my rebuilt stuff is built properly, and not MBA'd down to pitiful and a price-point).
In addition, in many modern units, the complex circuitry chosen by many makers of Audio Equipment, no matter what you do with power conditioners, only the slightest differences are heard. And the sound is pretty much a given, but due to the highly complex and expensive circuitry, it is merely designed to give better readings on a distortion meter, but it quite literally fails the test of sounding like live music. :)
-Steven L. Bender, Designer of Vintage Audio Equipment
...Give it 3 years, and some vendors will realize power conditioning is best implemented in the component itself because the load conditions are specifically known. Or possibly vendors are correct in that customers, overall, are frankly unwilling to pay that incremental cost...
This is so interesting! So then, much of our hifi gear potentially could have had "proper" power supplies that address the specific needs of the component, but the designers are specifically choosing not to do it - even though such a decision certainly hampers the very gear they are designing. Thus also requiring the unsuspecting customer to need to purchase yet another component, a power conditioner - all since the designer wasn't willing/able to just put a proper power supply in there, in the first place. Why does this happen - is it all due to cost-cutting?
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...
But back here on earth, people who work for a buck, the old vintage equipment which was tubes, and minimalist, and simple, often worked great. And all the power conditioners and filters you could lift, while it probably would do no harm, probably would also do no good.
In fact, at a recent meeting of Audio Syndrome Society, at the end of September, 2006 on a very highly regarded biamped system which used the: VPI Scout TT/Grado Ref Sonata, Sony SACD/DVD transport, Theta Pro Gen II DAC, Van Alstine T8 preamp, Behringer 8024 Dig Eq, heavily modified Heathkit W7m amps (EL34 push pull, rebuilt w/new PS by Paul Schwartz) on the Martin Logan ReQuest Electrostatic Panel speakers, and a Bryston 4B amp on the woofers, with a M&K MX 125- dual 12in subwoofer... the introduction of a power conditioner, made the system worse sounding :scratch:...
I think it was placed on the subwoofer amp, and I seem to recall that it was a Custom Power Cord Company unit, one of the pricier units, but I wasn't really paying attention to what they were doing until they removed it....
Steven,
Thanks for your impressions and welcome to AudioCircle. I'm certainly not disputing your conclusions as to what you heard. But I'm not familiar with this Custom Power Cord Company powerconditioner, nor have I found the price allways correlates with efficacy. I don't know its topology, specifications or implementation.
I can only speak to what I've personally experienced. With regards to 'old school' tube equipment, I've heard a 'Baby Sofia' SET integrated tube amp powered by my own Felicia diy conditioner at a NY Rave, and Gary Bauer's lovely rebuilt Citation II powered via a Audience Adept at another Rave. These components should qualify as 'old school' type tube implementations. In both instances, the universal consensus (mass hysteria) was that these components benefitted tremendously from the inclusion of specific power conditioning. But please note that the only power conditioners I vouchsafe are the Audience Adept, PS Audio Duet/Quintet, my own DIY efforts, Equitech, and (on faith in certain fellow posters) the Running Springs Audio conditioners. Obviously, your own electrical mains can make a substantial difference. In my Park Slope home, with minimal residential density and no nearby commercial consumption (for Brooklyn :?), my power is rather good; far better than in a a friend's highrise condo a 1/2 mile away. Your own results in Queens would depend on similar considerations.
All I can suggest is that might reconsider your conclusions if you could audition a 'proper' conditioner. Maybe not. As you're in Queens and I'm in Brooklyn, I'll PM you.
Regards,
Paul
PS - Consider joining the NY Audio Rave
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=62.0
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Time for my $.02.
My direct experience has told me that power cords can make a large difference in digital sources. Before I understood the concepts at all, I'd have thought this was the least likely area for improvement, but that's not the case. I've got a new house with good wiring and clean power, and conditioning is not needed (likely to do more harm than good - conditioning is a completely different category from power cords), but a good cord on my CDP drops the noise floor and pretty much makes *everything* sound better.
My problems with "objectionsists" are twofold. The first part is the gross naivety - the assumption that parameters that can be readily measured are simply the *only* factors that could possibly affect sound. That is simple naivety. The second issue follows: the over-reliance on theory vs. actual experience. Anyone who has never heard a readily audible difference provided by a good power cord simply has either narrow experience or can't hear as well as an average indiviual off the street. It's about that simple. Frequently, these are not subtle differences at all.
Oh, although I did just order some VH Audio products, my most expensive PC to date is under $100. A cord doesn't have to be pricey to be good!
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Hey Paul
Don't forget the test we did at my place with the BPT 2.5sig and the Nuforce AMPS.
Krusty
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Dave,
Certainly, the NuForce line DEMANDS good powerconditioning to even qualify as listenable, and your BPT certainly came through. But the NuForces can hardly be described a 'old school' tube products. :)
I didn't mention the BPT as I never got to hear what it provided to tube components with and without conditioning in a controlled environment. Sorry for the omission, and consider it added to the 'vouchsafed'.
Regards,
Paul
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Paul
Your right,but i have hooked up a kt88 and el84 based tube amp to it and it did change the sound of them for the better.I have listened to a couple of power units and of them all i like what balanced power does the best.Just my choice.
thanks
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It was mentioned earlier, that RFI is in fact blocked by the equipment transformers, but the line run from power-cord input to transformer might still radiate RFI into the chassis/internals and cause problems, specifically, could cause op-amp oscillation.
Is RFI the major culprit then, that conditioners aim to reduce? If so, why not just put a R/C, or a ferrite, on the line run in question, or even on the power cord, and eliminate the costly conditioner units?
What are the noise frequencies that we are worrying about here (regarding op-amp oscillation risk, etc) - are they in the MHz ranges, or are they down in the kHz ranges?...
I'm quoting my own post questions :oops:, just hoping if anybody (please) has any answers or suggestions? :?: